Arkefly engine flameout 11th April

[turboP]

Today I heard over england the Arkefly flt 5361 with an engine flameout. do anybody knows what happened and if they landed safely in Shannon? tnx

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Was it a 673 ER?

[turboP]

dunno, I was just on the same freq and heard them.

[babemagnet]

yes it landed safely in shannon. and its already back on his way to aruba! Arkefly 361 PH-AHQ Greetz

[babemagnet]

sorry i just looked on the website of Aruba airport.... and the arkefly from amsterdam is cancelled. So the aircraft is still in shannon. I guess.

[suppie]

A/C still in SNN will return to AMS tmrw pax being picked up by G-OBYH

[joe two]

I thought their 767 was very seriously damaged after a colission on the ground with a light pole in Iraklion, the wing was severely damaged and more than a meter was cut off and fell on the ground.
Did they manage to fix that one ?

[World of Tweed]

Yeah I think they did fix that one. Back in January an aircraft was undergoing significant repair and a Thomson 762/763 was used alternately to cover the longhaul routes affected.

Given the registration noted above I can only assume that we are again helping our Dutch cousins out.

[RingwaySam]

Yeah I think they did fix that one. Back in January an aircraft was undergoing significant repair and a Thomson 762/763 was used alternately to cover the longhaul routes affected.

Wasn't that for PH-AHX which was stranded in Curacao waiting for an engine change. They don't have much luck with there 767s :*

[World of Tweed]

Can't say I know exactly which aircraft was were and without what part! ;)

Either way it would seem that they are having somewhat poor luck with AOGs at the moment.

[tetraNG]

ground collision was at Chania LGSA and not Iraklion, i think.

[Sir_Fly-a-Lot]

Just bad luck, it happens unfortunately:(

[GULFPILOT76]

As a matter of fact I think this is their 4th engine failure/shutdown in approximately 3 yrs, wonder what the CAA will say and what will happen to their ETOPS. I'm quite sure they have 120 min. now.

[flybonanza]

The aircraft in question are B767-300 EREM. They have PW4060 engines. They were originally delivered in 1990 to SAS. Thought these details make it easier for some of us to understand the above dialogue.

[76-er]

The engine failure in Brazil occured more than 3 years ago after leaving Recife on its way back to AMS, reportedly because the engine ran out of oil.

Back then, ArkeFly was still known as Holland Exel.

The powerplant exchange in the Antilles doesn't qualify as a failure IIRC, so that makes for a total of only 2.

Once again a bit of a capacity crunch for OR, as one of their planes is presently flying out of BRU on behalf of JetAir while the infamous OO-TUC is down for a C-check.

[dicanio10]

Perhaps they could merge with Globespan with that track record:ouch:

[siddi]

The thing was about Arkefly, when the aircraft went back to amsterdam. It had more problems. This time with the fuel jettison pump. On ground in ams there was fuel leaking heavily from the fuel jettison pipe.

ciao ciao

[joe two]

The "lady's and gentlemen , there is absolutely nothing to worry about" mentality still seems to exist.

:rolleyes:

It is amazing to see how people are still trying to make bananas look straight.

[76-er]

In brazil it was indeed Holland Exel instead of ArkeFly... It was in 2004

March 21st 2005, 1 month and 8 days before Holland Exel's longhaul ops were continued under the TUI-brand.

So yes, only 1 failure. :8

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The "lady's and gentlemen , there is absolutely nothing to worry about" mentality still seems to exist.

Please expand on just what exactly you are worried about.

[joe two]

Indeed.

There is absolutely nothing to worry about.

[clipstone1]

yep, you have to remember that ARkefly (TUI Airlines Nederlands is you want to be picky) isn't actually Holland Excel.

Holand Excel closed down by their owners and TUI Airlines Nederlands was started up as a new company by TUI. The aircraft operated by TAN were previously operated by Holland EXcel, but it wasn't a simple TUI purchased the company, it was a new company, the leases were renegotiated, some of the staff were taken from Holland Excel but not all of them, and TAN didn't take over all of the flying that Holland Excel previous did, in the main it took over the TUI flying previously undertaken by Holland Excel.

TAN have has their problems, 3rd party maintenance providers causing significant damage to one aircraft during a major check, ground handlers marshalling an aircraft into a lamp stand as well as other issues with a major maintenance provder, but either way they're not the same airline as Holland Excel. TUI are lucky in that they have 7 airlines in the group (ok 8 at the moment til TOM and FCA merge) and a current fleet of 160 aircraft, which means one airline can often cover for another when it has operational issues, hence the TOM 767s covering a number of TAN flights over the last few months.

Three ageing and unique (to the TUI fleet) B763s doesn't help, although the engines on the TAN 763s are common to the B744 engines that Corsair operate.

[joe two]

It must be great ! Living in denial :rolleyes:

[klm-md11]

whatever the name is...

... it is an airline that I will avoid any way possible.

Knowing what I know about their "on-time-performances" and the hundreds of claims against them because of all these delays is a good reason to not travel on this airline.

However, most Dutch leisure travelers do not have a choice as it usualy is a package holiday with little choice of airlines.
The other choice is Martinair which isn't all too much better either- their ancient 767-300's get tech plenty times as well.

It is airlines like these, and airport(charges) at AMS that make me travel for German airports more and more often!

Better quality at lower prices ;)

KLM-MD11

[clipstone1]

it'll be fine when the 787's arrive...just a shame they've become 7late7's so god knows when the TAN ones will arrive......

[AMS-NL]

I fully agree with what KLM-MD11 has posted. I have had the misfortune of flying with Arkefly various times to AUA, CUN and most recently to NAT. This airline is a disgrace to the TUI group, even the handling agent at AMS admits that they are a poor carrier frequently suffering from long delays and old unreliable aircraft. When faced with a delay situation their customer service representative at the gate was hostile and rude towards the passengers and he spent his time on the phone and laughing with the Menzies personnel, ignoring the pax! It put you in fear of asking questions or for assistance. Onboard the aircraft are dated and dirty, even after their recent refit. My return flight was from NAT was operated by Thomsonfly and the difference was night and day, their crew showed genuine interest in the pax and took their role seriously and the aircraft was clean and well maintained, unlike on OR where the crew were rude and spent most of the flight hidden in the rear galley. Onboard safety is also very poor, with the crew not conducting simple checks such as cabin secure. I would seriously have second thoughts before flying with Arkefly in the future, and like KLM-MD11 take advantage of cheaper fares and better service by flying from Germany.

[GULFPILOT76]

Don't forget, ETOPS 120 was accepted by the CAA out of Holland Exel.
Arkefly did NOT have to prove their ETOPS qualification again starting from zero.

You guys are talking about engine FAILURES, but the ETOPS qualification talks about engine SHUTDOWNS which can be the result of a failure but does not have to be. An engine may have to be shut down for a number of reasons while it still runs (idle). So shutdown 4 in approximately 4 yrs is quite a high number.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Yes Globespan, lost their ETOPS approval, got it back and then soon after suspended it again themselves.

[11K-AVML]

How do their leased airframes compare -
I'm thinking about the aircraft they're leasing out to other airlines?
Is the problem mostly with company procedures or does it also involve maintenance issues which could therefore be an issue to be aware for these operators?

[GULFPILOT76]

Anybody knows a company that has lost etops-approval before ?

Gulf Air lost their ETOPS qualification on the 76 somewhere in the late nineties because of several engine failures that were caused by using the wrong grade engine oil. So the Omani DGCA were friendly enough to grant them 1:15 hrs so they could still do their most important routes. But then Oman was a share holder in GF,......so.....?:rolleyes:

[joe two]

It is an interesting thought that companies who've lost their etops approval are still around.
When a safety culture becomes a safety puzzle one should stay away though.

[Hurkemmer]

Quote:

whatever the name is...

... it is an airline that I will avoid any way possible.

Knowing what I know about their "on-time-performances" and the hundreds of claims against them because of all these delays is a good reason to not travel on this airline.

However, most Dutch leisure travelers do not have a choice as it usualy is a package holiday with little choice of airlines.
The other choice is Martinair which isn't all too much better either- their ancient 767-300's get tech plenty times as well.

It is airlines like these, and airport(charges) at AMS that make me travel for German airports more and more often!

Better quality at lower prices

KLM-MD11


With a callsign like yours I wonder if you see them often, the MD11 is KLM's Caribbean fleet right? And about as old as the 767?

[U 2]

When Holland Exel continued as ArkeFly, people were glad to stay in their jobs , happiness did not last long. Still the same mess, now with a TUI CEO who says: the people in the office work much harder on lower pay and therefore the pilots should keep their mouth shut regarding better terms and conditions.

No wonder the Corsair guys and dolls were not happy at all when TUI got involved in their business hoorah CorsairFly.
With JetairFly in Belgium red-flagged all over, and the only sense-making ThomsonFly now as well forced for redundancies after their failed loco 737 experiment one wonders where it is heading.

ArkeFly only exists to force a low TUI seat-price on the competition in Holland. Just a few TUI aircraft there will do exactly that.
And they are not doing a good job either.
Will TUI continue this mess ?

[clipstone1]

competition in Holland? oh yes the competiton is all KLM owned and controlled...that's right.....not sure that constitutes competition

[U 2]

Well , it is not really difficult.
With just a few aircraft in a messy operation, ArkeFly can still prevent the competition from dictating higher seat prices.
ArkeFly is tour operator controlled while the competition are real airlines.

And indeed, you're right, the competition (Martinair and Transavia) are much larger and well organised and under a KLM umbrella.

Allthough ArkeFly is a loss making organisation, touroperator TUI is still continuing the operation for the reason mentioned above.

This is not a healthy situation for the airlines but tolerated so far.

How long TUI will sustain the situation might become a valid question.
Especially considering the ongoing shambles of which just a couple are mentioned in the previous posts.

[Bomber Harris]

I haven't heard of Arkefly before. Where are they based...? Who are they?

[AircraftOperations]

Dutch based arm of TUI.

[GULFPILOT76]

The fact that Arkefly runs this airline for dubious reasons (putting competition under pressure) is very clever, for the time being. I think that in the longer run as you can already see right now the typical aviation hammer will come down with force. AOG's, fuel prices, unhappy staff and incompetent managers to mention a few will take their toll. If you want to make a small fortune in aviation you have to start with a big one. TUI is a TRAVEL company not an airline.
TUI has to put all their airlines directly under TUI AIRLINE management and not interfere. Airline business is airline business and any CEO from the TRAVEL business who thinks he can run an airline will feel the hammer sooner or later.

[DUTCHBIRD.NL]

Arkefly may feel that they are providing healthy competition at this time, however in the long run you pay the price for choosing to fly with them. I experienced extremley long delays a few months back when flying to CUR, and I thought that I was doing the right thing flying with them over KLM. In the end the money that I saved over the fare with KLM was spent due to the long delay in the airport and having to buy food and drink and other expenses to keep my family entertained. Arkefly is the poor relation in the TUI airlines group, they appear to do evreything differently from Hapagfly, who are a pleasure to fly with. The Arkefly personnel appear not to be interested, leaving the handling agent Menzies to deal with all the problems and answer all the questions. The Arkefly customer service agent who was present at the gate was not interested in answering questions that the pax had and was extremley hostile towards anyone who approached him. The 767-300 aircraft are in a very bad condition, and most certainly have seen better days. In my opinion Arkefly is a complete joke, and I am surprised that TUI allow such a mismanaged operation to continue to operate. What is the point in having Arkefly personnel at the gate if they are not going to do the job which they are employed to do? Menzies appear to take the brunt of all the problems and questions that the pax ask. Do you think that TUI will allow this type of operation to continue? It is time for some real competition in the Netherlands!! I have always been surprised that Thomas Cook, Neckermann do not set up an airline operating out of AMS. Delays do happen, we all know that, however it is the attitude of the Arkefly personnel mainly their front line staff that caused me to think twice about flying with them again in the future, and I know several people who are of the same opinion.

[GULFPILOT76]

It is not a secret that TUI is not very interested anymore in their aviation adv.

Etc, etc, etc. My god, we have an insider all of a sudden who speaks to the board of directors of TUI travel. And one who was most probably at one time pissed of by . . . . . someone, and now the frustration comes out all at ones.

Morse, please,please if you don't know what you are dribbling on about, then. . . . DON'T!!:=

Greetings, GP76

[HARLEM64]

The biggest problem at Arkefly (TAN) is within the management and some of the staff that they employ and this starts at the very top with Steven van der Heijden, who is the Chief Executive Officer (CEO) van TUI Nederland. He is very small minded and has a reputation across the industry for being harsh towards his employees. I would be surprised if the TUI group keeps the Arkefly operation running, as they must have very high overheads and they have functions within the company that other airlines within the TUI group have outsourced to handling agents etc. When travelling on a package holiday from the Netherlands we have very little choice when it comes to which airline we go with, however I must say Arkefly is the worst carrier that we currently have operating from the Netherlands. Given the current climate I think that it is about time that major changes occur at Arkefly.

[GULFPILOT76]

'Given the current climate I think that it is about time that major changes occur at Arkefly.'

Absolutely true Harlem, their CEO is not capable to run Arkefly.
He should do OK as a. . . .farmer?
Arkefly should be run by TUI airline management in Hannover and not by a tour operator.

[GULFPILOT76]

Well Morse there are ways to talk the economy down and there are ways to talk
companies down the drain. It's all psychology the experts say.
That should not be our intention although rumour says it.
A discussion on the 'going about their business' is ok, but never forget people work there and rumours could become wishfull thinking for whatever reason.
Arkefly is definitely in need of a better CEO. We all know airlines are incomparable with other businesses and need (operational)aviation people to run them.

Anyway I very much enjoyed the Morse series on TV, never missed one.

[rojread]

"It seemed like a good idea at the time......'

Arke is a long-established and well respected travel company based in East Netherlands. It probably seemed like a good idea to add it's 'own' airline brand name, albeit part of a bigger club, when Exel came on the market (or whomever).

Seems they are being dragged into a rather murky whirlpool, not all of their own making. Cut them some slack guys.

[ArkeVlaai]

I do not want to dissapoint you but history is different.
Holland Exel went bankrupt and TUI stepped in to continue this company in order not to loose to many seats in that period.

Trying to figure out a name wasn't hard, it should end with ....Fly and than preferably with a Dutch tour operator under TUI flag in front af that , Arke seemed to fit in front.

So it became ArkeFly.
(With some involvement from Holland but they made that one up in Germany , in Holland it sounds a bit strange as Fly and Vlaai are rather close to much amusement of all the crew).

And so there is no real connection between Arke and ArkeFly other than that Arke was sold to TUI some time ago and ArkeFly is a TUI activity.

[joe two]

Hi GP76 ,
are you seriously suggesting that with a quote likeIt is not a secret that TUI is not very interested anymore in their aviation adventure.
Don't think TUI is still keeping this umbrella up when the 787 becomes available from 2012.
your company might get into more trouble ?
Because it is all psychological ?

[GULFPILOT76]

Well, it is true that economy's suffer for a certain part by what people feel because they hear and read stuff. Look at the financial markets and the credit crisis lately, doom and gloom.
Very true, it cannot be stopped and this a rumour network but to pretend knowing what the TUI board says or thinks goes a bit far in my humble opinion.

[ArkeVlaai]

A lot of people have left already, captains and F/Os, even to Ryanair and Globespan.
Guess everybody who could have left.
Don't hear a lot of rumours anymore but a lot more people are looking around.

[U 2]

OpenSkies is a favourite now,
despite the IFALPA recruitment ban !

[Harry Spotter]

How long are the wet leased Futura 737 and the Spanair 320 staying?