Pilots with history of recreational drug use.Do I stand a chance?

[Cetnik]

Hello

I've realised that I really want to be a Pilot and that there's nothing else I'd imagen doing but there's a slight problem I'm worried about.I've been using extacy and speed recreationally on the weekends for a year or so and haven't touched it for over 2months now.The only excuse I have is that I was young and dumb.My parents would be ready to sponsor my training as long as they see that I'm commited.They obviously aren't aware of my past drug use and there's no need for them to.I want to become and airline Pilot and I am ready to put in 100%.I've told my GP about my drug use, so will that come up on my medical when applying to airlines if I don't mention it?
I did my year 12 with satisfactory results but I don't posses the Qantas maths requirement.

thank you

[Hempy]

I think drug use may be the least of your problems.

[Tarq57]

Sorry, have no idea what the prospects are, but whatever happens, I urge you not to consider "not mentioning it". You are legally required to declare it during the medical, and failure to do so/later discovery of same could land you in deep doo-doos.
I don't imagine a history of drug use would necessarily disqualify a candidate, (it might), but for your own protection (not to mention that of any passengers you may be responsible for in the future) it needs to be declared. Maybe not to a future employer - each will no doubt have rules regarding this - but definitely to the medical/regulatory authorities.

[Bendo]

Admitting to recreational drug use will disqualify you from holding a medical at the first instance - about 10 years ago one of my students admitted to smoking a bit of pot on the weekends :=

Mind you, admitting to illegal activity during an interview with a government medical officer could be viewed as failing the underlying IQ test anyway :rolleyes:

I am assuming you have never been caught in posession and that there is no official record of your past silliness.

I won't encourage you to lie in your aircrew medical but I think the question you will be asked is "Have you, since your last medical or in the last 12 months, used any illicit drug or narcotic?"

See if you can go 12 months without - perhaps then
1/. you know you have the self-discipline required;
2/. you will have the clear head required for the very intensive (and expensive) training and
3/. you can answer the question truthfully.

Best of luck.

[Islander Jock]

I don't believe I'm reading this. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

The pilot of the PA32 that killed a NZ family and American tourist probably only considered himself a "weekend" or "recreational" user of canabis too.

I don't know if it is permitted under privacy laws or other civil liberties provisions but the sooner an employer has the right to send someone after establishing probable cause, to the local clinic for a p1ss test the better.

[Jabawocky]

I might be about to get a pasting for this....but what the heck, :uhoh:

There might be a pilot shortage......but they are not that short of em!

What sort of fool were you, and now you think all is good and into an airline job now. There are probably hundreds of applications on desks and the airlines have picked through them, and I hate to say it but maybe they are not prepared to scrape the barrel any deeper.

I suggest you go five years or so clean and see if you can forget you ever did it.

I have seen the effects "Speed" has on its users and it took several years for the effects (mentally) to go away, from what I understand Ecstasy does permanent damage.

In my opinion get your sh!t together and stay that way for a while yet before you consider such a move. And maybe do something constructive with your newly gained knowledge and educate all those around you about how stupid it was and how much you realise now what life is really about. I am glad you have turned the corner, so help some of your friends out too! Ohh and all the supplier you know, get their details and take them to the cops, get em roasted so they can't do it any more.

I wish you well, even though it sounds a bit harsh above, just don't do that sh!t again!

J:ok:

[dude65]

So you've been off the gear for 2 months. Well wacky do to you.

You need to see if you can stay of it for 2 years - if only to prove to yourself that you can do it.:=

At this stage of the game I wouldn't let you mow my yard

[NAS1801]

There is NO ROOM for JUNKIES in the aviation industry. And before anyone starts harping on about his "use" being "recreational", drugs are drugs. Don't waste your time. Don't waste possiblie employers time. Get a job in Woolies or Coles. We don't need your sort with the lives of the traveling public in your hands.

[GANKER]

I am not condoning drug use , But I guess it is ok for pilots to have a history of being alcholics! QF having their own alcho anon!
Cast the first stone if you havent been a bit dusty after an overnight!
He is young by the sound of it, dont tell them and see if you stay clean for the training which will take you the best part of a year anyway. Then decide.

[Capt Wally]

jaba you have every right to say such things & most agree as we can see. Ok here's a guy who is 19 & posted twice here. Take a look at the scenario a bit here. Why on earth would you want to 'hang' yourself all over again (first hanging was the day he started this death spiral) here in a public forum where pilots, employers & god knows who else is ready to judge, sentence & hang someone for almost anything?:bored: Somebody in command of anything never lone an A/C ought not to be anywhere near machinery when on or have been in the past mind altering drugs but they are sadly.
So 'cetnik' as you can see/read I believe it best at yr age to go away from this industry & prove to yourself first that yr worthy to hold a job in our field of expertese. Then when you know yourself that your back to normal(whatever that is anyway!) maybe just maybe you could seek a pvt license & take it from there. Yr subject matter (if it is in fact real) is a very touchy subject & airing it here wasn't a smart move. You are obvioulsy not alone many youngsters would be heading down a path of destruction but do you really think that 2 months proves much?. NO. come back here much latter, now isn't the time



CW

[Metro man]

LSD, if taken even once, permanently disqualifies you from flying due to the risk of a flash back.

No respectable airline will knowingly employ a former drug user in a sensitive position such as air crew. Can you imagine the publicity if the press found out ? The legal implications in the event of an accident would be unimaginable.

Also the drug culture doesn't go well with customs and international aircrew. There is the suspicion you could be pressurised into smuggling.

Two months really is nothing to boast about when it comes to being clear, talk to us again when it's been five years.

Best advice, forget it.:suspect:

[RadioSaigon]

I doubt you'll see much overt support for your position in here Cetnik. IMO recreational drug-use of any sort is about the stupidest choice you can make at any time in your life, for whatever reason. It would be naive in the extreme to contend that there is no recreational drug-use amongst the pilot community -there's more than ample evidence that this is not the case. It is more than likely however that you'll find a majority of the pilot community are 'clean', are that way by choice and have been all their lives. As a function of that, you can expect to find an exceptionally low tolerance of self-confessed recreational drug users and an absolute intolerance of discovered 'closet' recreational drug users -for wont of a better way of putting it.

Do you stand a chance? Not in any organisation in which I hold a position of responsibility, if I know of your use.

[blow.n.gasket]

Try Cabin Crew, sounds as if you would fit right in with a certain element there!:}

[Sunfish]

How old are you?

1. Find out if your GP has made any record of what you told him. If it ain't in writing, it didn't happen, and unless he prescribed something (Valium, Zoloft?) he may not have recorded anything. Besides you might have simply been fantasising and he didn't believe you.

Furthermore, if you only did something once or twice, it would not necessarily be material in my opinion. I'd discuss it with your GP in more detail including whether he thought it was material and discussing exactly how anyone would find out different from what you say on your medical form if there is no record.

2. But there is a deeper issue, there is a difference between being "young and stupid" and using drugs as self medication for personal problems. If the latter is the case, then you had better think very hard about whether those problems still exist, because they WILL resurface during your training when it becomes stressful, as it will no doubt be from time to time, and if they resurface and you resort to self medication again, then you and anyone flying with you, are in deep deep lethal trouble.

To put that another way, if you lose situational awareness while flying on instruments in a dark and stormy night, from stupid drug or anxiety related stuff going on in your head, then you are simply dead.

3. Thanks to the random drug testing regime, you will get caught if you do stupid stuff. Not sure if usage two months ago will be picked up.

4. It is not unusual to be mixed up and unsure of what you want to do with your life at your age. Exactly how did you determine you wanted to be a pilot? What aircraft have you flown? When did you decide this? Last week? Yesterday? Do you know what the job really entails?

If you haven't dipped your toe in the water and tested your aptitude, then maybe now is the time to do so before you commit yourself (and your parents hard earned cash) to training schemes.

To put it another way "Not so fast young Skywalker."

On a brighter note, I'm afraid I've had to deal with similar young peoples problems, and the individuals concerned now hold some pretty responsible qualifications in a transport environment and are doing just fine.

To put it another way if you've grown out of it, and it was just "youthful high spirits", and there is no record, forget about it, don't mention it because it's not material.

OK,now flame me for potentially encouraging an illegal act.

[SIUYA]

Interesting range of responses to this 'problem'!

Jaba............as far as I understand, repeated exposure to ecstasy can apparently result in memory loss, brain damage and depression, and repeated exposure to speed can result in malnutrition, psychosis (including violence), reduced resistence to infection, and brain damage.

Simply, the potentially disastrous consequences of taking ecstasy and speed far outweigh the (perceived) benefits.

Jabawocky offered you some good advice Cetnik..........here's some more from the Designated Medical Examiner's Handbook:


CASA will not usually issue an aviation medical certificate to a pilot or ATC who suffers a substance abuse disorder or who is involved in the problematic use of drugs.

Current CASA practice is to ask all applicants for aeromedical certification (original and renewal), about possible problematic use of drugs and substances.

Applicants who admit to the problematic use of drugs/substances or whom the DAME suspects of drug/substance abuse on the basis of other history or examination findings are required to submit a urine sample for drug screening.

As a minimum, urine samples should be tested for the following groups of drugs: cannabinoids, amphetamines, cocaine analogues, hallucinogens, opiates, sedatives and phencyclidine analogues. In addition, the requesting DAME should request testing for any other drug/substance that he/she suspects that the applicant may be using/abusing.

Any applicant who returns a positive urine drug screen and thus confirms his/her problematic use of drugs/substances does not meet the relevant medical standard. CASA will not issue a medical certificate unless an explanation acceptable to CASA is provided.


Somehow, I think that you may need to reassess your career ambitions. :(

[NAS1801]

Hmmmm..... why the sympathy, (Young and stupid, just tried once, he will grow out of it). I have never and will never touch drugs and the majority of my friends are the same. I am not a motivated person, I listen to heavy metal music and have had some very unhappy times in my life however, I NEVER turned to drugs. There is NO EXCUSE for it. END OF STORY! It's not like he didn't know what he was doing!! There is plenty of info out there warning of the dangers. IT'S ILLEGAL FOR ______ SAKE!! Doesn't that tell you something? He made the decision to do something that is CLEARLY illegal, harmful and overall STUPID! Too late buddy. Coles or Woolies for this kid.

[Sunfish]

Cetnik, once you have finished with this thread, get another username because they aviation community is quite small and you will be identified quite quickly if you continue to post on Pprune under that name while training.

The ignore the likes of NAS1801 comments. He doesn't know what you and I know. For starters, there would not be one teenager in Australia who hasn't puffed on Marijuana at least once, it's far easier for teenagers to get than cigarettes and alcohol.

The drugs issue is one of those "I wish you hadn't told me that!" areas.

If you tell the DAME, then they are required to take action. Once that action is taken and its on your record, even if the DAME then issues you a medical certificate then it appears unlikely any employer will hire you, ever. It's a catch 22 situation.

To put it another way, there is no point even attempting to start an aviation career if evidence (from you or anyone else) exists of prior drug use, even if you are completely "clean" for years.

I often have to go out of my way counselling various young people that what they do before the age of 18 DOES count as far as police and medical records go. Most of them think the slate is wiped clean at age 18 - it isn't.

[NAS1801]

For starters, there would not be one teenager in Australia who hasn't puffed on Marijuana at least once, That's rubbish!!

[Jabawocky]

For starters, there would not be one teenager in Australia who hasn't puffed on Marijuana at least once,

Thats not true........and probably far from it, unfortunately it could well be a closing gap!:=

J

[PyroTek]

For starters, there would not be one teenager in Australia who hasn't puffed on Marijuana at least once,I'm the one teenager.

Pyro

[morno]

Sunfish, I find your comments offensive. I went through all my teen years without touching drugs once. To say that I must have smoked marijuana is offensive to me.

morno

[Capt Wally]

hahaha Pyro, you maybe in the minority. But I too would like to believe that not ALL teenagers have smoked pot 'cause I have an 18 yr daughter who I would think is the last person to do such a dumb thing. & no Pyro you ain't having her Mob number either!:bored:

I see this thread is gathering much speed & so it ought to, if we can 'weed' (poor choice of a word I know) out those that want to add to the woes of a professional pilot by way of a past or current drug problem all the better


CW

[PyroTek]

CW, no Mob number for an upstanding gentleman like myself?! what a letdown!

anyway, I really never got 'the chance' to try and illicit drugs and generally didn't care about it..
and nowadays I think more about my future and say no...
I have been offered drugs of course.

[hoggsnortrupert]

Yes I too was young and dumb, I "once" tried a joint at 17, and made myself sick, because I had never smoked, and still do not know how to!

And I have done other stupid things that I should have known better.

So you have a chance, a very good one, but it is kinda like a game of golf, or target shooting, you are playing against yourself here, how do you know you have the dicipline to stay away from it, only time will tell you.

In the meantime for those of us with kids , read on!

Ms. Crystal Meth
by Samantha Reynolds

If my 'glamorous' lifestyle is appealing to you. . .
And you want to try me because you've 'nothing to lose'. . .
Then, let me give you a bit of advice:
You are a fool. . . and you'd better think twice.
I destroy homes. I tear families apart.
I take your children~ And that's just the start.
I'm more valued than diamonds; more precious than gold.
The sorrow I bring is a sight to behold.
If you need me, remember; I'm easily found.
I live all around you. In school and in town.
I live with the rich. I live with the poor.
I live just down the road, and maybe next door.
I'm made in a lab, but not in one like you think.
I can be made under your kitchen sink.
Or in your child's closet, and even out in the woods.
If this scares you to death, it certainly should.
I have many names, but there's one you'll know best.
I'm sure you've heard of me. My name's Crystal Meth.
My power is awesome. Try me you'll see.
But if you do you may never break free.
Just try me once and I might let you go.
But if you try me twice then I own your soul.
When I posses you you'll steal and lie.
You'll do what you have to just to get high.
The crimes you'll commit for my clandestine charms
Will be worth the pleasure you'll feel in my arms.
You'll lie to your mother. You'll steal from your dad.
When you see their tears you must not feel sad.
Just forget your morals and how you were raised.
I'll be your conscious. I'll teach you my ways.
I take kids from their parents. I take parents from kids.
I turn people from God. I separate friends.
I'll take everything from you; Even your good looks and your pride.
I'll be with you always---right there by your side.
You'll give up everything; Your family, your home
Your money, your friends. You'll be all alone.
I'll take and I'll take until you've no more to give.
When I'm finished with you, you'll be lucky to live.
If you try me be warned:
THIS IS NOT A GAME.
If I'm given the chance, I'll drive you insane.
I'll ravage your body. I'll control your mind.
I'll own you completely. Your soul will be mine.
The nightmares I'll give you when your lying in bed....
And the voices you'll hear from inside your head....
The sweats, the shakes and the visions you'll see....
I want you to know: These are your gifts from me.
By then it's to late and you'll know in your heart
That you are now mine and we shall not part.
You'll regret that you tried me. (They always do.)
Just remember; you came to me. Not I, to you.
You knew this would happen. How many times were you told?
But you challenged my power. You chose to be bold.
You could have said "No" and then walked away.
If you could live that day over, now what would you say?
My power is awesome as I told you before.
I can take your mother and turn her into a whore.
Go ahead and curse me with every breath.
Just make your choice: Will it be life or meth?
You will take unknown paths on your journey through life.
Some will bring happiness. Some will bring strife.
But, my path is one you must not ever cross.
Although it's well trodden countless lives have been lost.
Now that you've met me, what will you do?
Will you try me or not? It's all up to you.
I can show you more misery than words can tell~
Come, take my hand. Let me lead you to Hell.

Chr's
H/Snort:ok:

[sms777]

Sunfish,.....Cetnik....
YOU TWO WILL NEVER IN YOUR NATURAL BORN LIFE EVER FLY MY AIRPLANES!!!
I FORBID YOU TO EVEN DREAM ABOUT IT!!!

End of story.

[morno]

Capt Wally, don't be a spoil sport and share your daughters number around, :E

[PyroTek]

not to you morno, only under 20's! :ok:

[Knulp]

I think you gentleman should read the question.
He was asking for an opinion from ....

Pilots with history of recreational drug use.

[Outkast]

Morno & cessna_dave, geez you guys are easily offended why don't you grow some thicker skin.

I have never touched drugs either and yet I think that amongst my non-aviation friends that I probably would be the only one that hasn't.

The point that was trying to be made is that there is a huge percentage of people try drugs these days, particularly young people. Perhaps the word "most" should have been used. Are you happier now?

[WannaBeBiggles]

Looks like the percentage of youths who used Marijuna is more like 13.8%, whereas alcohol is more like 37.6%.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/rpp/67/05_chapter1.html#2

But lets not let the facts get in the way of a good story :ugh:

[Capt Wally]

Morno Pyro has shown to date he's a smart little individual so if I was to 'sell' my daughter to a pilot (how dumb would that be !) then you will have to take a number:E Remember I'm a male, a pilot & believe in the 'Darwin' theory, so hence I'll keep my daughter locked away!;)
Drugs? well they are available always have been although these days maybe peer pressure is far more real than it was in my youthful days but there are options today far more than there was many years ago for assitance. Help is so readily available but aviation ought to be the last thing on a previous drug users mind


CW

[Mr Milk]

I never touch drugs, but i drink like a fish and i bet some of you do too. What you need to understand is that ALL drugs at certain levels will have impact on your life. I personally would not have a problem with employing someone who smoked a joint occasionally, or took an eccy at a party, In fact i would prefer someone who had an open mind and attitude to life over some of the wankers here on pprune who just sit in front of their computers thinking about flying all day looking at airliners.net and only taking a break to wipe down their screens.

I would bet my bottom dollar that most of you are religious too- which i consider an illegal drug in itself as it fills your head with so much crap.

Most of you guys would be shocked to learn that recreational drug use is not confined to kids who work at coles too, it occurs at every level of any profession you could name. And why is the avition industry so precious? Sorry to bring you down a peg boys, but there are more mentally demanding jobs out there than driving jets.

Whoever made the stupid comment about the Cherrokee 6. The guy had an engine failure. If he had been hungover, as i know many pilots who have flown in such a state, would there be such an uproar?

Good on you cetnik for trying to get to where you want to go in life. dont tell anyone about your past and look forward to your future. Just make sure you pass any drug tests honestly and i will fly with you anyday.

some of you guys need to get a life away from being critical of others.

[Capt Wally]

Mr Milk like all the rest of us in here yr allowed yr opinion, BUT just about every one of the posts are dead against that sort of behavior, you are definetly in the minority, thank God !



CW

[Mr Milk]

Sensitive? How? If the religious amongst us all come forward and pray that cetnik burns in hell this whole problem will be solved!:}

Wal i respect anyones opinion- although i might sound as if i dont, i just reserve the right to hang sh1t on people the same as they can hang it on me. Thats what people in here need to realise- that all that goes on here is opinion and not to take anyones too much to heart.

[Capt Wally]

Mr Milk at 52 yrs of age (same as me) I wonder what allows you the thoughts that it may be ok to some degree to do drugs & be accepted when as teenagers we would have had very little opertunity to do drugs & was probably the furtherest thing from most minds, not like these days where it's almost available on every street corner! I would as I assume just about every one else of our vintage disscourage like crazy the use, acceptance & the beleif that it's no big deal to use mind altering drugs & continue to fool ones self never lone an employer. Professional pilots need to be ever vigilant, it's hard enough to be focussed & stay alert as it is with constant T&C's errosion never lone having had a past of ilicit drug use to deal with & hide.. I accept yr opinion but I just don't agree like as I said most others would have the same feeling.

BTW I have no problem with the original posters ambition to get where he wants to go it's just that I feel as so many others must do has gone about it the wrong way

CW



CW

[Xeptu]

This is a stupid thread, no-one would argue that there is no room for drugs and alcohol in our industry, however you would be deluding yourself if you believe there's a difference between the two and this "is" an issue in our industry, whether you care to acknowledge that or not. The question is, "is it properly managed"

[G Cantstandya]

Cetnikl.....

Don't listen to all the wowsers.....

Look, when i was younger, I, as did many of my mates dabbled in the odd smoking of some pot (yes I know its dumb, but we were all young once)
it never affected my pilots licence (not that I smoked when i was flying)

I obviously gave it up after leaving my teenage years and am now gainfully employed flying a big jet as many of my mates who also had a dabble as well.

The best advice i could give you is, give the eccy's away now, knuckle down, don't tell you doctor anything he doesn't want to hear and make a career out of flying if thats what you want.....If you wanna keep getting high, buy a guitar and play at the local pub for a living...

Most importantly off all, if your going to do both, think carefully of the responsiblity you have as PIC...

[Binoculars]

All I'm going to say is that I find it difficult to reconcile the sanctimonious self-righteous comments posted by pilots on here with my experience of pilots, and at 55 I've associated with quite a few.

I've seen them all, from drunks leaving the club at midnight who are flying the jet out the next morning at 7am to those who like a toke at night and fly safely the next day.

To whomever it was who said "You will never fly my aircraft!" I can only say good luck in your blindness, because those people are almost certainly already flying for you, and you wouldn't have a clue.

Get your head out of the sand, people, and stop pretending pilots come equipped with a halo.

[DeafStar]

Finally some people are speaking without the narrow mindedness of a few of the posters here. If the lad wants to turn his life around and become an aviator he should have every oportunity. I know many pilots who have dabbled in illicit use of drugs in thier pre flying lives and many are successful and happy pilots, having left thier mistakes behind.

If he gives up the wacky weed for good and can pass the required testing then good luck to him.

[Towering Q]

"mmm.....Drugs are baid....hokayyy??!"

[F100 or B717]

OK. Where to begin. :eek:

One doesn't want to fuel the FIRE, instead help put it out in the most diplomatic way.

Times have indeed changed and yes as sunfish tried to put it MOST of the youth of today have indeed tried/been offered a drug or at the very minimum thought about trying it. Yes, some realise their wrong doing and others don’t! I think this young gentleman has realised his errors and is keen to make a difference!

I personally have had someone very close to me work through this very situation; they have made it in this industry now working for a major Australia airline.

You have been off the stuff for 2months, excellent because, E and speed are outta the system in under 48hrs, with absolutely no trace! [Plz don’t think this allows you the opportunity to do it again, as random testing will catch you out!]

My very close friend, whom i mentioned above, took in his prime 3-10 E pills a night, for a period of over 1year! He has the memory of a computer and is undoubtable normal in everything he does! So it will not affect your ability to do the job. [Again, Plz don’t think this allows you the opportunity to do it again, as random testing will catch you out!]

A True FACT is No-body knows unless you tell them, like everything only say what has to be said. BUT if you do go back (or even think you will), then you should immediately think of another career choice! We don’t want nor need druggo's in this industry, plus you will get caught, so why waste the time and money! [HOWEVER! Don't feel like you have to distance yourself from events you used to consumed the drugs at, there are great substitutes such as RED BULL, V or any sports drink for that!! Just make your friends aware of this new goal of yours, if they are real mates they will support you and by you still spending time with them you will feel no immediate loss and maybe like my friend mentioned above you will see how silly it was in the first place, at the same time showing your mates a new path to take.]

I have met in Australia/NZ alone, in excess of 10 professional pilots whom used to and in the correct company recall taking such illegal items. In some cases it was what has made them who they are today. [Life experience can be invaluable, u now have more than some other pilots, use it to your advantage and make sure you NEVER LOOK BACK!] Absolutely no one should be crucified for changing a bad habit and moving on with their life!!

I agree with Sunfish get another username and maybe alter your D.O.B. as people will not take long to put 2n2 together, aviation is SO SOOO small worldwide. Not to mention, don’t talk to anyone in the industry about these previous habits, same as my last comment, word travels so fast in this industry, as you will quickly learn.

OutKast you said it 'I have never touched drugs either and yet I think that amongst my non-aviation friends that I probably would be the only one that hasn't', this is as true for me as you and all the people I asked at work today.

Now I am sure everyone will think F100 or B717 has posted his first post, indeed he has, but not to be a smart ass nor a sneaky NZ'r. Simply to provide some facts and information that may one day allow someone whom has a much undesirable past the opportunity to play in the FL's as many of us do daily! I want to remind you all that I AM TOTALLY AGAINST DRUGS, but I believe that everyone deserves a chance, n even a second chance!

All the best mate. I would fly with you any day.

[Captain_djaffar]

Goodluck for you training:ok:

[Cetnik]

First I want to thank all who have posted in response to my query.I appreciate it, even if some were quite disheartening I still respect an honest opinion.But to all the guys/gals who posted positive responses, I'm truly thankfull.You have really lifted my spirit.

I probably should've been more discrete as to where I stand and my intentions.I do realise what I done and the best I can do now is take it as an expirience and bring it over to my kids etc. in a preventative manner.As for jumping straight into it just because it could be a great job, that's arguable as I do admit that I imagen it to be a great job.But I've flown with my mates dad before more then a couple of times in the last couple of years and also went for a trial flight a month ago.I never thought it was an achievable career so it was automatically erased out of my mind as an option/opportunity(not that I think it's easy but it sure is more possible then i had imagened in the past).Another concern on minds would of coarse be flying whilst still using, to which I can't stress enough that it's unimaginable and beyond irresponsible, to me at least as this isn't just my life I'd be putting in danger but other peoples lives too at that.So that shouldn't even cross ones mind.My parents would probably be ready to help me out with most of the costs but I know that they're not exactly wealthy..mortgage etc..I'm lucky to have such great parents and I'm humble.So anyway I intend on working as a bricky with dad for atleast another year to save as much as I possibly can.Last year I saved almost 9k which will now obviously come in handy.This is a turning point in my life, I now have something to work towards and my life is actually on the right path.

Thank you again to everyone :ok:
all the best as I'm now taking the obvious advice and changing my nickname

cetnik

[Jabawocky]

Mr Milk:=

About the only job in aviation I can think of letting one of your dopie mates have is the office cleaner!

I would not want loading, refuelling, fixing, flying etc done by anyone not on their game!

And no I do not share your thoughts about most here are religous plane spotters on airliners.net, probably most of us actually fly something.

J:ok:

[Fliegenmong]

F100 or B717, Binos, Ganker, G Cantstanya.

This thread is no place for intelligent compassionate worldly advice!

This thread is for mercilessly flaming a young kid who made a mistake!

(Wouldn't this have been a fun one in the 'ol Agony Aunt forum !?!:E)

[multi_engined]

This has got to be a hoax lol...

[Sunfish]

As for those who vehemently say they never touched this stuff, well, you would say that if you were in the aviation industry wouldn't you? How could we know? You must have lived a very sheltered life.

I remember discussing this subject with my local GP in an extremely nice part of Melbourne. He told me that there would not be one street in Toorak, Armadale and Malvern that didn't have at least one heroin addict in it. As for marijuana use amongst private schools, it's out of control and has been that way for at least ten years. Then of course there is the club scene with extacy and ice.

As I said before, Dope and other drugs are easier for a kid to acquire than cigarettes and alcohol, and I'm speaking from very bitter, expensive and personal experience in having to deal with the consequences of this stuff as a parent. As I said, I don't believe that there are any teenagers who haven't tried it - and that comes from experience.

[&&&]

There is NO WAY the aviation authorities will know you have done those drugs if a few weeks have passed. Your maths may be a bigger problem.

[Dogman]

Guys......chill and give this guy a chance. He is reaching out and asking for advice.....about how he can try and achieve his dream (not unlike a lot of us on here)........its just that he's been naieve enough to ask for advice on prune, Go figure?

As for all the preachers about illegal drugs........legal ones (Alcohol, Nicotine), are costing us $56 Billion a year in associated costs (reported earlier this week). Why is it that pilots think and even encourage binge drinking; and yet were a person to say "no thanks i just had a smoke, and i don't drink".......they would be frowned upon. Seems hipocritical.......especially when heaps of guys i've worked with use "No-Doe's", Sudafed, plus copius ammounts of coffee to stay awake, and then take sleeping tablets to go to sleep. Its a crazy mixed up world!!!

2 cents.

[bushy]

There is too much military influence in civil aviation, and one of these influences is drinking alcohol. A small ammount of alcohol can be beneficial, but too much is VERY harmful. Alcohol is one of Australia's most harmful drugs, and the Australian Government earns lots of money from the sale of alcohol. You could say the Australian government is involved in drug dealing, both alcohol and nicotine.
The military?? Well the military people often have to handle terrible situations, and do terrible things. They don't want their people thinking too much, so they use alcohol to keep their people "fat, dumb, and happy"
This is not appropriate in civil aviation.

[*Lancer*]

I'm not condoning drug use, but I think many posters need to be more pragmatic here! How many have a real medical understanding of what the long term effects of recreational use of speed and 'e' on weekends for a year actually is? As SUIYA posted earlier (but overlooked), CASA only considers a current substance abuse disorder. Discriminating for historical substance abuse is illegal under the Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (Cwlth).

If you are clean - good on you. Stay that way. Listen to the medical professionals more than the pilot professionals about moving forward in your life.

[Atlas Shrugged]

I'm speaking from very bitter, expensive and personal experience in having to deal with the consequences of this stuff as a parent. As I said, I don't believe that there are any teenagers who haven't tried it - and that comes from experience.

I just lost a mate in a crash and I'm not in the best of moods.

How F:mad:ing dare you accuse me, or anyone else for that matter, in such a manner. You know nothing of me, or anyone else in here; nothing about my background, my upbringing. NOTHING!

Only a fool would be ignorant of the fact that drug use is widespread, but accusatory generalisation like that is fraught with danger.

Don't tar everyone with the same brush just because you're bent out of shape about something that went tits-up in your own life. I really have neither the need, nor indeed the desire to know anything about you, in fact, I couldn't give a :mad:

[NAS1801]

Yeah. Lets all give junkies a second chance huh? What message does that send to others contemplating drugs? It tells them "go ahead, try it! You'll get a second chance". This is probably why a lot more young people are trying drugs nowadays. NOT ALL, as Sunfish would have you believe. Again, there is no room in this industry for people who's minds are that unstable that they resort to drugs. I mite add that I am NOT religious either in fact, I am extremely anti religion.

Why send out the message that it's OK to experiment with drugs by giving these low life's a second chance?

[Sunfish]

Sorry if you are upset Atlas and NAS but if you had any :mad: experience dealing in detail day to day with the subject you pontificate on, you couldn't possibly be offended by my generalisation. You would discover that drug abuse and experimentation is extremely widespread among all levels of society."Normal" people do drugs too, so your shock horror and outrage are totally and completely misplaced.

To say "I don't believe there are any teenagers who haven't tried it", is in my way of thinking no different to saying "I don't believe there are any teenagers who haven't picked their nose, farted in bed or lost their virginity before age 18" who cares? I don't care if you have used drugs or you haven't. Why would I? Usage is too common these days to get upset about it, and getting upset and closing your mind to it merely delays solution of the problem and maximises the damage to you and other people. Sure, initially I was shocked and outraged at the extent of the problem, but after a while I realised the size and nature of the subculture involved.

You obviously don't understand that the professionals in the field are quite blase about drug abuse. Many doctors, lawyers, accountants, public servants, ministers of religion, politicians, high profile business leaders, and, yes, even allegedly judges use drugs, and I assume pilots are no different. It's not just some Bogan/ Lebbos underclass (to which you have no doubt consigned Chetnik) who do this stuff.

Ever seen a guy in a three piece suit or a well dressed lady coming in for their daily methadone? I have. Ever seen a beautiful and very expensive Toorak home where the children are drug dealers and have their own motorcycle gang minders - with their parents permission? I have. Ever met the nice little lad who will deliver your drugs to your door in a black BMW with one phone call? Did you know that you can have a perfectly normal life doing highly complex technical tasks while using heroin? Provided it is pure enough of course. It's the dirty stuff like dope, ice, eckies, cocaine and even codeine(a very nasty addiction) that cause behavioural problems.

So I'm afraid I don't do fake outrage over drug use. It's rife. I've had to deal with that. I would imagine the imminent introduction of random drug testing by CASA will produce results consistent with the rest of the general population because I don't think pilots are any different, and there are bound to be a few who ingest illegal substances and think that it has no effect (or even a beneficial effect) on their skills.

Give Cetnik a break and cut some slack. I only hope you never have to learn what I had to learn.


NAS: Again, there is no room in this industry for people who's minds are that unstable that they resort to drugs.

You obviously know nothing about behavioural science do you?

My guess is that after a number of very expensively trained and very busy pilots working for household name companies are suddenly removed from the pilot pool due to random testing, the industry and CASA will develop similar protocols and systems as used to deal with alcoholism.

[Atlas Shrugged]

Don't try and justify it. I'm really not interested in collective opinion.

[Sunfish]

Then lets hope you pass a random drug test.

[NAS1801]

Then lets hope you pass a random drug test So are you inferring that there is a chance Atlas may not pass? "Let's hope"???

YOUR attitude is out of touch Sunfish. Not everyone resorts to drugs. Are you trying to justify your own drug use through attempting to accuse every person as having experimented at least once?

You can accuse me, (through accusing everyone), of trying some illicit substance at least once however, I KNOW that I have never ever tried ANY illicit drug. I know this and that's all that matters. Plenty of other viewers of these threads are in the same boat.

But if accusing everyone of trying drugs keeps you happy in your own little world, so be it.

Oh and I probably know as much about behavioral science as you. Take that however you please.

[Atlas Shrugged]

Be very careful Sunfish.

[NAS1801]

Oh, and while I am here, maybe your attitude will change if you are mugged by a junkie or your house is broken into by a junkie.

Then I suppose your solution to that would be to legalise illicit drugs so that the junkies can afford them?

[Fliegenmong]

Dare you to mention Qantas & Sydney in the same sentence now sunfish haha :O :}

And yes Sunfish I've known some very respected professionals in the community who are 'recreational' drug users, and I am understanding the gist of what you are trying to say.



Behavioral science :confused: I'd have to look that one up :8

[Jabawocky]

Sunfish

That TV program on 9 of late.....the one you Victorians are not allowed to see. Thats what we want to have for our kids hey?

We should all as a population say enough.......and turn the tables on drug dealers, importers and manufacturers.

Get caught with any more than a very small amount (the victims Vs the dealres).....no questions asked, bullet between the eyes! Arrested, court the next morning, pine box that afternoon.

We do not take this problem seriously enough and deal with them hasrhly enough.

Get tough and watch a fair number stop overnight. And those that don't, the above method of criminal cleansing might just work!

Just in case you are wondering, I had to or was asked to help someone in a situation like you describe, and lucky for the dealers I never found out who they were. Also, I have never been offered any type of drugs in 40 years........maybe I am unique.

J

[VH-FTS]

Although Sunfish may have been a little stong with some comments, I understand his logic. Having worked or been involved in a number of industries before aviation (including sales, IT, retail, education & 'blue collar') the recreational usage of drugs is very, very widespread. Drug users are not the junkies most of you are making them out to be - I challenge you to spot the users next time you are at the shops or even the airport. Don't assume they are the baggage handlers.

The only difference between aviation and other industries is we don't talk about it. Why would a crew member offer to go halves with other members of staff in a hit of [nominate drug here]? Why would a charter pilot boast to his mates on a Monday about what he took on the weekend and the resulting 8 hour orgy that followed? You would have no job very quickly.

I don't support drug use, nor have I personally used any, but be very careful about stereotypes.

I look forward to the upcoming introduction of drug testing. I thought it was to begin in April, has this been changed?

[Sunfish]

NAs18:


So are you inferring that there is a chance Atlas may not pass? "Let's hope"???

Of course I'm not inferring that Atlas may not pass. However draw your own conclusions about the entire aviation workforce from the quote below:

Illicit Drugs

Volume 194, Issues in Society

Based on the most recent national survey, almost 40% of the Australian population aged 14 years and over has used an illicit or illegal drug at least once in their life and nearly 17% has used at least once in the previous 12 months.

http://www.spinneypress.com.au/194_book_desc.html

YOUR attitude is out of touch Sunfish. Not everyone resorts to drugs. Are you trying to justify your own drug use through attempting to accuse every person as having experimented at least once?

Now you are being libellous. My experience of the drug trade is as parent dealing with my teenagers drug usage in extremely difficult, expensive, heartbreaking and at times dangerous conditions. For all you and I fecking know, there are pilots reading this thread who are experiencing the same problems with their kids right now, and your ill advised and ignorant comments, and draconian prescriptions must be a source of great pain to them.

On the balance of probability, there will also be dozens of other student pilots and apprentices in exactly the same boat as Cetnik - having done something that has the potential to affect their careers. Now that is not libelling student pilots or anyone else, that is merely a statement of probability.

You can accuse me, (through accusing everyone), of trying some illicit substance at least once however, I KNOW that I have never ever tried ANY illicit drug. I know this and that's all that matters. Plenty of other viewers of these threads are in the same boat.

I'm not accusing you in particular of using drugs, I merely refer you to the statistics. Draw your own conclusions. Do you think the aviation workforce is especially special? Not that it would worry me anyway if it wasn't.

But if accusing everyone of trying drugs keeps you happy in your own little world, so be it.

Oh and I probably know as much about behavioral science as you. Take that however you please.

I'm confused by this.

You and a couple of others do your best to dissuade someone who has admitted the error of their ways from even thinking about joining your profession, at the same time slanging off at drug users, which is strange since , by your own admission, you know nothing about drug use.

My advice to you is this. There is this thing called Karma. Do you have kids? Jaba, Atlas and Nas? Do you have friends and relatives, wives and girlfriends? Would you like to see them carted off to jail or thrown out of their profession for drug use? Or would you like to regard it as a regrettable but treatable medical condition like alcoholism?

Please explain, I'm all ears.

[sms777]

Hey Bushy!
What is the phone number of your CO?
I need someone to shout me a drink after reading all this:yuk:

[Sunfish]

Now I'm going to get my "fix" of Cabernet Sauvignon at the yacht club...by bicycle:p

[Driscoll]

I agree, nobody with a history of drug use should be given a position of responsibility. Just look at how much better the drink-driver president of the USA is than that pothead Clinton.:E

A bit of perspective may be good, I don't agree that all teenagers have tried drugs, I certainly didn't, but I have enough friends who did that are working in more important jobs than most of the wowsers here would like to know.

I'm sure nearly everyone on here has displayed some risk taking behavior that they would prefer their employer didn't know about, it just seems that drugs have a far greater stigma attached.

People make errors of judgment, it's a shame so many here are so quick to condemn rather than point them in the right direction. Most posts here are basically encouraging the originator of the thread to give up any hope of a good job, become a junkie and go round knocking over old women for there purses. Good solution.

[NAS1801]

Illicit Drugs Volume 194, Issues in Society Based on the most recent national survey, almost 40% of the Australian population aged 14 years and over has used an illicit or illegal drug at least once in their life and nearly 17% has used at least once in the previous 12 months.

Bit different to ALL teenagers 'eh? Want to retract you previous statement now that you have sourced a figure of 40%?

Now you are being libellous

Not at all. I asked you if you were covering for your own use. A bit different to stating that all teenagers had tried drugs. One is a question, the other a statement.

Do you have friends and relatives, wives and girlfriends? Would you like to see them carted off to jail or thrown out of their profession for drug use? Sunfish, it is due to people with a soft approach such as yours, that younger people believe it is ok to experiment in the first place. Your above statement would be invalid should we choose to take a hard approach to drugs. Send out a message that if you use drugs, kiss goodbye to your career. Penalties should be heavy and should be enforced. Discourage people from trying in the first place.

[QF MAINT OUTSOURCED]

CETNIK , If you have no ability for maths you are wasting your time,perhaps JAT would give you a go,get your parents to buy you a one way ticket back to SERBIA i hear the standards are pretty low in that country:}:}:}

[Atlas Shrugged]

Do you have kids? Jaba, Atlas and Nas? Do you have friends and relatives, wives and girlfriends? Would you like to see them carted off to jail or thrown out of their profession for drug use? Or would you like to regard it as a regrettable but treatable medical condition like alcoholism?


Yes I do have kids, Sunfish. Two boys, one 25 and living away from home with his girlfriend, the other 17 in May and still living at home with my wife and I. We trust them. We also have a 6 year old girl, obviously still at home as well. None of them use illegal drugs.

Let me tell you one thing, no I wouldn't like to see any of them carted off to jail, but as hard as it might be for me to do, I will be the one taking them there. They know this.

No one in our home uses illegal drugs. No one that comes into our home brings illegal drugs. I do not have within my circle of friends and aquaintences, those that choose to use illegal or recreational drugs. If I catch anyone with illegal drugs in our house, I WILL ring the Police. I will not ask any questions of them, nor will I accept any explanations or excuses. If I find any illegal drugs in our house, I will ring the Police. If either of my boys use or bring illegal drugs into our house I will grab them by the scruff of the neck and take them to the nearest Police station.

Whether my approach is right or wrong, that is not for you to decide or even pass comment on. It is my way, in MY house and my rules. Period.

My father is exactly the same, only he would have smacked me half way into next week first! and probably long after as well, and I would have deserved it.

I smoke Winfield Blues and I drink Beck's Beer, coffee and the occasional Grange, however, apart from a shoulder operation, following which I was prescribed prescription pain killers (I cannot even remember what they were called - it was in 1974 I think) I have NEVER taken any other drug or form of drug, nor have I been forced to or prescribed. In fact, I have never been offered any. Not even an aspirin or panadol.

Not that I have to justify myself to you or anyone else that I don't know on a public forum, it just makes me cringe somewhat when i read unsubstantiated generalised bull****, I say again, unsubstantiated generalised bull****.

Any one who uses illegal drugs (or any other form of drugs for that matter) DOES SO ENTIRELY BY THEIR OWN CHOICE. Do not proceed to tell me otherwise.

I have now finished with this subject.

[Sunfish]

NAS:

Sunfish, it is due to people with a soft approach such as yours, that younger people believe it is ok to experiment in the first place. Your above statement would be invalid should we choose to take a hard approach to drugs. Send out a message that if you use drugs, kiss goodbye to your career. Penalties should be heavy and should be enforced. Discourage people from trying in the first place.

Atlas:

Any one who uses illegal drugs (or any other form of drugs for that matter) DOES SO ENTIRELY BY THEIR OWN CHOICE. Do not proceed to tell me otherwise.

Both of these posts demonstrate conclusively that you don't understand what you are talking about.

No one in our home uses illegal drugs. No one that comes into our home brings illegal drugs. I do not have within my circle of friends and aquaintences, those that choose to use illegal or recreational drugs. If I catch anyone with illegal drugs in our house, I WILL ring the Police. I will not ask any questions of them, nor will I accept any explanations or excuses. If I find any illegal drugs in our house, I will ring the Police. If either of my boys use or bring illegal drugs into our house I will grab them by the scruff of the neck and take them to the nearest Police station.

Please PM me if you want further information about why this is a bad idea.

I pray for both of you that you don't have to learn the error of your ways personally.

[twiggs]

None of them use illegal drugs.

How on earth can you be certain of that? (except the 6 year old)

You are extremely naive.

[Sunfish]

In an effort to get this thread back on track, could I suggest a few PM's? Cetniks situation is no different from thousands of other kids. There also appear to be a few people who don't understand the risks to their kids anymore than I did before my son got ensnared.

Translation: Immoveable rockface solutions aren't always the best.

[Capt Wally]

geeeez is this thread still being bounced off the walls? I guess cetnik really thru a curved ball here!

Notice anything here guys? CETNIK hasn't returned (most are probably aware of this fact anyway & have said so) & has left us bashing each other about the ears! He's either clever or very dumb, the latter (if he is at all real) would be the case I think. Maybe I have missed sumfin' here & he has returned via another 'nic' but it has shown that division is alive & well within the flying community!
Look nobody is denying that drugs exist in the aviation game it must exist in all sections of the work force from judges to the man on teh street unemployed it's just that why advertise it via this very heated forum & expect some rational answers?



CW

[NAS1801]

Why should we PM you when you are just going to try and justify drug experimentation?

[Sunfish]

You've just demonstrated that you don't understand the problem. Report things to police and unless you are talking commercial quantities you will be met with "and your point is?". Push further and you now have a teenager with an "official" record. that means no flying, no public service job and suchlike, because the ten year time horizon doesn't apply to these convictions.

So go ahead, report your number one son to the police. They will try and dissuade you from taking matters further, but if you really really want to, you can destroy his employment prospects for the next thirty years if you try.

What a great victory for you and common sense.
Ps: Watch "Oasis" on ABC TV right now and hope to Christ your kids don't end up the victims of your uninformed attitudes.

[PropDuster]

Quite the can of worms this one :ugh:

I just think it's a bit rich to assume that the aviation community shouldn't or doesn't have the same vices as society in general.

As previosly mentioned herein, there are a couple of legal drugs that we pilots can use, which when taken to excess are far worse than your average one joint/cone a night habbit.

This is not a plug for recreational drugs but lets keep it real, at the end of the day no one is perfect.

Cetnik if you are seroius about flying as a carear then stay off the gear and DON'T mention your past indiscretions to your DAME or QF interview panel. :=
Good luck


PROP :ok:

Now if I can just get through all this haze to my Pink Floyd collection....

[Sunfish]

Wot prop said............

[Cetnik]

Hi guys

refer to post #47
I think it only just came up.

P.S-I have to agree with Sunfish as the drug use in todays youth is incredibly widespread.Of coarse it depends on which suburbs your kids are being brought up in but the issue starts as early as year 7 high schoolers and upwards.There was a survey conducted last year sometime which stated that 70% of 13-25 year olds in Melb have at least once tried the drug "Ice".Schocking?Yes of coarse, but it's a reality and for parents it may seem unreal but when you're a youngin in the scene then you really see what's happening around you.99% of parents aren't aware of their kids drug use and as strange as it may seem, it's the way it is.People can still lead a regular life whilst using recreationally but eventually it will catch up on you and it will destroy anyone.
Everyone deserves a second chance.We're only human and we do make mistakes, some small and some dramatic but it's just that drugs are a very touchy subject.

Thanks again to everyone
My nicknames in the process of being changed

:ok:

[Jabawocky]

Sunfish

You addressed me earlier today, and in reply, yes I have teenage kids. No they do not touch drugs.

My harsh comments, about the exploiters not the victims, pretty much remain unchanged, if your child sells a bit of theirs to help pay, thats not a commercial operation.

If you give the commercial operators a bullet......no need for the smaller end of town to have any supply/market and hence no problems.

Your kids who had a substance abuse problem are not the targets. Fix the bigger end up. Be swift and harsh.

Sunny old mate, if previous governments, police etc had the balls and taken a tougher stand a long time ago, YOU would have been far less likely to have to deal with the issues you have had. And I do truly feel sorry for you having to.

J

[sms777]

Sunfish

You already back from the Yacht Club? (hick, hick)
How many CabSuav's have you had? ( hickup, hickup):confused:

I need another one:rolleyes:

[JohnnyK]

Well, this has proved to be an interesting can of worms.Heres my 1 cent. Personally, I am leaning more towards the seemingly well informed arguments of Sunfish than the dogmatic, hysterical rants of Nas and Atlas.
Cetnik-youve obviously been a dick in the past. That rubbish you were taking will, at best diminish your potential and make rubbish music ok and, at worst kill you-either by itself or bringing you into circles inhabited by by bad men.But now,at least,you are seeking to right past wrongs-I agree with the others who say that 2 months is not long enough and maybe come back after 2 years and you may have a case for redemption.You should certainly be given the chance. Even the jail crazy yanks give you 3 strikes to get out. You might also want to take a few more English classes along with the Math because god knows they`re toughening up on that as well.
Maybe Sunfish was incorrect when he stated that everybody has had a toke but I think he was just making the point that drug use is wide spread and wont just go away.Even if- as some twit mentioned earlier-we start executing everybody involved. Like most difficult issues, It needs to be managed and not just wished away by men on absolutist high horses who would shop their kids to the police. I mean really. What are ya?

[Sunfish]

Jaba, while I agree with your sentiments about commercial drug dealers, the bullet behind the ear solution is not going to happen anytime soon.

Most kids get it first by "borrowing" some from a "friend" for $20.00 or whatever, I don't know the current street prices. The "friend" usually says he gets it from "his brother at University" or some such excuse, but he is often getting it from an addict or level 1 dealer.

Addicts normally have a supplier slightly higher up the tree that deals in slightly larger quantities, some of which they on sell to finance their own use.

You will never get much past the second level of dealers without a Police investigation because while levels 1 and 2 are almost always harmless, your level 3 dealer and above will kill you without a moments thought if they feel the need to.

Even if you are aware of exactly who is dealing what, you have to think very hard before you tell the police, because there is the risk of police corruption resulting in the dealer discovering the source of the information - and this risk increases the further you go up the tree.

There are some very very nasty people in this world that you and I never see except occasionally on television.

As for kids, my partner is a teacher in a private school. The usual dead give away of drug use in students is a relatively sudden decline in marks in all subjects with no apparent reason, usually accompanied with late, incomplete, sloppy or zero homework. This often takes the form of about a six week downward spiral.

Parents generally won't know of drug use because not only are kids cunning little beggars, but because even dope use is easily hidden. You can get a pipe and cone two inches long, and a cone of dope is about a quarter the size of a cigarette filter. Kids can administer a cone to themselves in about thirty seconds and you won't see anything or smell anything. Bongs of course are generally more obvious.

If you find so much as a cigarette lighter or cigarette debris (especially torn up unsmoked debris) suspect dope use and act immediately and harshly. If you don't know what you are looking for, visit a bong shop. If you find the evidence (an aluminium cone a bit bigger than a trouser button, coke can bong, pipe or suchlike ) don't wait and above all don't tread softly you need to make it immediately clear that you will not tolerate it's use anytime anywhere and especially under your own roof. Don't bother with the police, they don't want to know and are too busy anyway.

Simplest solution is an immediate (and I mean immediate) change of school, immediate removal from the current circle of "friends' (most of whom will be doing stuff), close personal supervision at all times, alternative activities, strict rules and draconian penalties for misbehaviour. You would also need trained help to run such an intervention.

I hope you never have to deal with this, but I know for a fact that thousands of families are trying to deal with it right now.

If Cetnik has found something (aviation) that he is willing to permanently forgo drugs for....well good on him!

[OpsNormal]

Is anyone else reminded of the stoning scene out of "The Life of Brian" after wading through most of the tripe being posted on this thread by those bigots who have never smoked anything or touched a drop of alcohol in their short miserable lives?

Click here for a reminder (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOdARZ3bs0k)

Glass houses.:=

[Monopole]

you won't see anything or smell anything
You bin smoken somefin to sunnies http://www.westernangler.com.au/forum/upfiles/smiley/icon_kiff.gif (javascript:void(opener.AddText('[sm\=icon_kiff.gif]'));self.focus();)

[kalavo]

If you really really want to be a pilot, go out and do the hard yards... show everyone it's what you really want in life. It was only four years ago we saw 90% of people who started learning to fly at the Uni's and TAFE's drop out of the industry early on and at the moment guess which profile you appear to fit?

Knock off the maths, physics and english via a correspondance course. Get a job doing anything you can (doesn't have to be aviation related, but if refuelling aircraft keeps you motivated towards your goal go for that) and pay for your CPL and CIR/ME yourself. Don't get mummy and daddy to pay for it - sure you may get the qualification sooner, but it's unlikely you will have put in the same effort to making sure you're a professional pilot and you'll struggle in GA if the industry goes back to how it has been for 20+ years.

If you can stay on the straight and narrow in that time and save the money for the license you'll be rewarded for your efforts in the long term.




Still can't understand why people turn to drugs when there's aerobatics endorsements there just waiting to be had *shakes head in disbelief*

[Dragun]

So go ahead, report your number one son to the police. They will try and dissuade you from taking matters further, but if you really really want to, you can destroy his employment prospects for the next thirty years if you try.

What a great victory for you and common sense.

Very true. That would surely be the best way to not only destroy your son's employment prospects, but also to destroy your relationship with him when the one person whom he should trust most in the world with his mistakes, takes him straight to the police.

Are you really saying that if you found a small amount of weed in your son's bedroom you would haul him off to try and get him a criminal record, rather than deal with the problem on a personal level as a parent?

[RadioSaigon]

Wow! It's been interesting watching this thread develop! Now, I ain't going to start quoting here, or singling out individuals, but I reckon some of you are massively missing the point.


First, for the record let me state quite clearly that I am not religious -couldn't be further from it; I smoke, I enjoy a beer, wine or spirit in the company of friends (have been known to get excessive enjoyment from it in the past!), I do not consider myself to be a wowser, bigot, mushroom or naive and seemingly, neither do any of my friends consider me thus, nor has my life been short or miserable.

I am however whole-heartedly, completely and irrevocably against any level of drug use, particularly as it pertains to participants within our profession. My position was stated quite clearly I reckon in an earlier post on the subject. I have never taken any form of illicit drug in my life. I have though seen lives destroyed my "experimentation" with various compounds, in one case a good friend; a promising, brilliant university graduate reduced to menial tasks like clearing glasses and emptying ashtrays in pubs -he can't handle anything more demanding now. His cognitive ability was destroyed by magic mushrooms. He is kept 'flying' medically today, because that is the only way he can function at any level. He doesn't know who I am any more. I had a partner that thought her occasional, social participation passing a joint was fairly benign. She never really did ever have much memory of the psychotic events that I had to handle in the aftermath. I have very nearly lost 3 nieces and nephews to varying levels of drug use. They are clean now, with families of their own. The signs of their past are still there though, when you compare the kids you knew before the drugs to the people that exist today. They're all now staunchly anti-drug, and I fear for any of their children that may dare repeat their mistakes.

I have been a victim of crime associated with this scourge more than once, as I am sure have many others in here. I would do anything within my power, without reservation or hindrance to assist anyone genuinely wishing to release themselves from the vicious embrace of this scourge at any time, as I have done in the past.

But would I knowingly allow any one of those people to risk my investment, my hopes for the future, my customers, my reputation and my income? Not on your bloody life. No way, Jose. Not until I was DAMN sure there was a solid, verifiable, lengthy history of non-indulgence. If there was ever proven evidence of further use, out they would go. One strike, you're out.


So, where do I see other correspondents in this thread missing the point? In a word: TOLERANCE.

You are prepared to accept drug use and then encourage users to participate in an industry where such use must be absolutely intolerable!!! But it's wider than that too -at a societal level, it must be made plain that any level of drug use is simply unacceptable. The very tolerance in the wider community is what makes kids think it's OK to experiment, without thought of what that experimentation may mean to their future prospects at so many different levels. That tolerance and acceptance of this particular 'youthful excess' is what makes it possible for whatever level of drug dealer to flourish. Take away the demand, the bloody supply will soon dwindle. There is absolutely nothing benign about any level of drug use. To suggest otherwise, you are deluding only yourself. To suggest that a recently-reformed user might not at some stage choose to combine what they have known in the past with the skills they have acquired since, naive. That's not a risk I am prepared to take myself, nor one I think should be imposed on unknowing, paying pax.

Tolerance is tantamount to tacit approval. If that's a risk you are prepared to take, fill your boots. Don't expect to change my opinion by any level of impassioned rhetoric, or expect me to be even slightly swayed by your insults. I've got that particular T-shirt already. Why should I as an airspace user tolerate a risk you are imposing on me by your acceptance???

I reckon the original poster is either very brave or very naive posting his query (I suspect the latter). How confident can any of us be that his past experimentation with drugs is past? How confident can any of us be that his current experimentation with aviation will ever reach the necessary level of commitment? How confident can any of us be that these twin experimentations will never be combined in the future???

And you want me to be tolerant...

[cwc]

Someone mentioned that if you were to go out in the street, could you pick the drug user, implying that many were. My response....Could you pick the non-drug user. Just becasue under someones silver lining is charcol does not mean the one next to it is also. I watched the program on Oasis last night when Ramsey was in add break- frankly that guy rocks and my wife and I cheer everytime he gets mad. That man( dont know his name) needs more than just a pat on the back for his determination and love. My point though here is that we are saying that alot of people do drugs that we would not pick....but alot of people dont do drugs. If you know so many...why? I personally couldnt tell you how many I know, if any. On the flip side, I couldnt tell you how many dont either. If I need to help someone out of an addiction I will, but I wont then say everyone is a user.

If one is using ones partner as a teacher to explain drugs being present through grades dropping etc....ask how many students grades are not dropping. How many students are still progressing. Could it be we are looking into the world with jaded glasses becasue of personal experience.

I am sorry, but I agree with those that look down upon drugs. I would go further and say I do not however look down upon the user. However....the drug is the issue, and it has no place in aviation. Consequences of ones actions must be taken into consideration. Yes, a second chance must be given, with that second chance comes a different future however. Dont dispute this one, its not worth it mate.

This forum post has obviously opened up old wounds and created fresh ones. The reality is, if I dont study, I dont get into uni. If I smoke all my life I risk the run of cancer. If I eat crap all day, I get fat. If I have sex without protection, I run the risk of STDs, and if I do drugs, I MUST DEAL WITH WHATEVER CONSEQUENCES THAT ENTAILS. Grow up, take responsibilty and stop asking for your life back. It was you who took it away in the first place.

Once again, a second chance is and should always be given. In some circumstances it cannot be the same as before one "stuffed" up. What would happen to society if there were no repercussions for ones actions or desicions. Any parent of a growing toddler teaches this. DOnt touch that....its hot. You cannot take the burn away when they do.

Thanks for all the fish.

Note to sunfish...I wont reply to you comments. That is my opinion and morals. I see no need to justify as you keep doing. Once again though as others have said amd I am sure all agree.... I am sorry for you family situation. Truly. I cannot imagine how hard that is.

Regards.

[jake05210]

Moderated drug use is no worse than the use of alcohol or cigarettes, as numerous advocates of drug prohibition here state they both use.

Here's something that the majority of you may (surprisingly) find enlightening - alcohol and nicotine are drugs as well, and if you binge drink or smoke cigarettes, you're as much of a drug addict as any other, whether you're living in denial or not.

[Fliegenmong]

Consider this...is there or will there be random testing of Police authorities. :confused:

HHmmmmm:hmm::ugh:

[Atlas Shrugged]

Sunfish,

Please enlighten me as to what part of "I am finished with this subject" do you not understand?

[Jabawocky]

Sunfish

Your last post I can agree with almost entirely. I do believe there should be a bigger effort from the police and government, and just as you are suggesting with the swift and harsh penalties for your kids if you catch em.......the same should apply to the big end of town. I do not think my ideas are unreasonable.

Simplest solution is an immediate (and I mean immediate) change of school, immediate removal from the current circle of "friends' (most of whom will be doing stuff), close personal supervision at all times, alternative activities, strict rules and draconian penalties for misbehaviour. You would also need trained help to run such an intervention.

No problems here mate, thanks for the advice anyway, but it seems you have modelled your recovery process on our "General Terms and Coditions of being a family member" and so far its working! We do not wrap them in cotton wool, but we make them well aware of the big wide world.


As for Cetnik, I think good on him for going clean, but take 5 years and prove to yourself and anyone else who cares, and stay clean. Work hard. Maybe start learning to fly RAA for a start, then get serious about going for it. 2 months is not enough.

J:ok:

[Towering Q]

No one in our home uses illegal drugs. No one that comes into our home brings illegal drugs. I do not have within my circle of friends and aquaintences, those that choose to use illegal or recreational drugs.

Atlas...I would like to pursue the "illegal drug" bit with you for a minute.

If a friend or aquaintence of yours had stopped in Amsterdam on his or her travels through Europe, and this person chose to enjoy a small green 'ciggie' within the confines of a licensed premises, to compliment a pint of tasty German lager....what would your opinion be of them?

After all they haven't indulged in any "illegal" drugs, not if they are complying with the laws of the Netherlands. Is it only when they smoke a joint back home in Oz that they become a 'druggie'?

[Jabawocky]

Ahhhhh TQ

Now weez gonna need more beer and popcorn!:D

J:E

[Integro]

Is this thread starting to get a little off track?

Addicts normally have a supplier slightly higher up the tree that deals in slightly larger quantities, some of which they on sell to finance their own use.

You will never get much past the second level of dealers without a Police investigation because while levels 1 and 2 are almost always harmless, your level 3 dealer and above will kill you without a moments thought if they feel the need to.

Even if you are aware of exactly who is dealing what, you have to think very hard before you tell the police, because there is the risk of police corruption resulting in the dealer discovering the source of the information - and this risk increases the further you go up the tree.


I'm a budding Pilot and new to PPrune but learning so much. Thanks to this post I now have another career I can pursue if the aviation industry doesn't work out.

I can deal drugs and avoid the police investigation by remaining in the level 1 and 2 area. Making sure to keep away from the level 3 guys. I didn't realise the roles were so clear cut. I wonder if they will organise a union, maybe all the level 1 and 2 guys should get together and go on strike until the level 3 guys agree to stop killing them :).

I was surprised to hear about how dirty the cops are too. Next time I get pulled over for speeding I'll just slip the Cop a $100 note and be on my merry way (save myself some demerit points).

Drugs are stupid and I agree with CWC, we make choices and we're not always aware of what the consequences of our actions will be but rest assured there will be some.

You never know, maybe one day I'll be sitting down for an interview and it will be Sunfish on the other side of the table and I won't get the job because of my light hearted comments above, then I'll be saying DAMN IT :ugh:.

[787 Captain]

Sunfish is spot on. I can tell you, being in that age group, that some of my peers take recreational drugs on occasion and they fly as well. Their parents have absolutely no idea that their kids are taking drugs, and would be horrified if they knew. This would also be true for many parents reading this - kid's are good at hiding it, and a whole range of kids do it, including some of the brightest and most honest kids you'll meet.

People in this age group are well educated about drugs and the effects of many of the different drugs. However, many still do it despite this knowledge. I know that some of them hold Class One medicals and have lied to the DAMEs about their drug use. I know this because I have asked them and openly discussed this with them, but have been unable to dissuade them from doing drugs because they say its fun. Sunfish is right, any parents on here who know about or suspect drug use MUST support their children, not go to the police or anything stupid like that. Your kid needs help, and you are the best person to give it to them. If you draw a zero tolerance line, your child probably won't be involved if you want to help them, which will in fact mean the problem gets worse. As a friend of some of these people, I show them that I don't approve and that they should not be doing drugs, whilst still accepting them for who they are. The result I find is that they still openly talk about their drug use with me, whilst acknowledging that they should not be doing it and minimising their drug use to the odd occasion. In the end though, I can only offer my advise, they are responsible for the decisions they make in their own lives.

I also currently work at a shop where drug addicts come in every day. What I see is so sad, their lives destroyed. The addicts' parents have to live with it, the addicts' kids have to live with it, and its not fair on anyone else. I think the biggest problem with people in my age group is that they don't believe they will become addicts, full stop. They do dope, LSD, ecstasy, etc, and say they would never do something like heroin. However, this is how addictions start, just recreationally, and I hope that none of them become addicts, and stop doing them recreationally also. I do not have enough knowledge of drugs to know how the different drugs would affect their flying, however telling authorities will most likely not stop them from flying, and will destroy the relationships I do have with them, which would obviously give me less influence on minimising their drug use and guiding them in the best way I can.

Some of what I have said here will probably scare parents. Its not meant to scare you, just to keep you informed and on the lookout, so you are there to immediately provide the support you can to your kids to get them off drugs before its too late if you suspect your kid is doing drugs. Remember, you have the biggest influence of all on them, but must ultimately let them make their own decisions.

787

[BAe32EP-Chief]

Having come late into this forum, I have the following that happened.I remember the day when I was a freshman out of the Ambulance service [20year old probationary] and we got patched through to attend a call of a girl found lying in a side street off from the popular nightclub in Perth. Apparently she was unconscious and unresponsive and frothing at the mouth [which isn’t a good sign]We operated under P1 conditions and another unit was dispatched to see who could attend first, we did. Upon arriving at the scene she wasn’t good – only to realise that indeed she was my girlfriend’s younger sister……. She went into shock and we had to bring her back to life two times in the alleyway. I asked her friends what she had taken and it indeed was cocaine. By this time the other paramedics arrived, we managed to stabilise her, put her in the back of the bus and rushed her off to the nearest hospital which was less than five minutes away.She didn’t last long….. Once again she crashed in the back of the bus but this time we couldn’t revive her. She was pronounced DOAI took the bullet and went around my girlfriends house [she lived with her parents] and told them of the news, as most people would they were traumatised. I later found out at the post mortems and speaking to her friends she brought this off a guy in the club and thought it would be cool. She never had taken drugs before and her body didn’t know what was happening so it shut down.She had a good career infront of her, she managed to get a part subsidised doctors degree from a leading university from her great grades from her TEE/As you now see, drugs don’t just affect you they affect everyone some with horrific consequences.I resigned from my paramedic job two weeks later…..
P>S Why now does PPrune take away the paragraphs?

[*Lancer*]

Sigh. There are a lot of naive people here.

There are many many youths who regularly consult with medical professionals about things their parents have no knowledge of whatsoever. Physical, verbal and sexual abuse, drug use, sexual activity etc. The naivity of sweeping statements like "my teenage kids would never touch drugs" is simply astounding. Just look at the tragic example above.

That aside, this is not about the legality, ethics or morals of drug use, it's about being employed as a pilot with a history of recreational drug use. Discriminating for historical substance abuse is ILLEGAL under the Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (Commonwealth).

[Capt Wally]

'Lancer' that's quite true yr attatching that Govt law but there are more ways than one to skin a cat in the airline business to 'weed' out undesireables. Been done for decades.



CW

[ampan]

Another late arrival, but strewth!: I'm quite an old b*gger, and don't touch "recreational drugs" (mainly because I wouldn't really have a clue where to find them) - but what's the difference between a whatever-it-is of cocaine and half a bottle of Chevas Regal?

[Hempy]

what's the difference between a whatever-it-is of cocaine and half a bottle of Chevas Regal?

The law?

(Chivas Regal 25 Year Old and cocaine probably cost the same though :} )

[ABX]

ampan,

...but what's the difference between a whatever-it-is of cocaine and half a bottle of Chevas Regal?

You're fishing for a bite, and I'll oblige.

Firstly, for those who want to justify their pro-drug position by mentioning smokes and booze, alcohol and tobacco are drugs of addiction, no dispute there.

Smoking has virtually undisputed negative side effects. Alcohol in moderation has a low incidence of negative side effects both physical and psychological. 'Recreational' drugs have much higher incidences of negative side effects, both physical and psychological. Alcohol and tobacco are licenced and regulated substances, 'recreational' drugs are not regulated, not licenced, not tested and not safe. The effects of a single use of these drugs can last a life time.

I used to work with a guy called Bob who was a recreational user. He never got past "level 1 or 2" drug use, never was a dealer or that close to the underbelly side of things, he was just a private guy doing drugs. As a result of his recreational habits he acquired permanent nerve damage, skin problems, paranoia, memory trouble and a bunch of social dysfunctions. (Hands up who would buy a ticket to travel on an aircraft knowing that he was the captain?) Don't get me wrong, if you just met this bloke you probably wouldn't notice anything at all, but when the chips were down this guy became something/someone else entirely. Most of the women in the company eventually refused to work with or near him and plenty of the guys wrote him off and dismissed him completely. I still bump into him every year or two around Albury and although he has been off the drugs for nearly 25 years, he has not made any improvements in the last 20 years.

Lets apply a little common sense here: alcohol and tobacco are known substances and their effect on a person is quantifiable, illicit drugs are not. How can a user know the full chemistry of the bathtub speed they are taking? The reason it is legal to drink and smoke (although the government would love to get rid of smoking) but not allowed to take drugs, is because recreational drugs are dangerous, no matter how many sympathisers bang on and say otherwise.

Despite what anyone may think after reading this; I don't condemn the guy who started this thread, or any others who have made the bad decision to get involved with drugs. I wish you hadn't done it, but it is your choice and you are free to make it. I have seen many people give up the drugs and try to get on with their lives, it can be done.

ABX

Ps. I belong to an organisation that has a branch involved in providing drug rehab for people trying to get off the stuff, I do know what I'm talking about.

[ampan]

The let's just say to the chap that he should clean up, fly right, and put it behind him?

[Sunfish]

I think there are a number of issues here that are getting confused.

For the record, we are talking about a nineteen year old who allegedly spent a year doing recreational drugs at clubs on weekends - but he quit playing with drugs two months ago because he wants to pursue an aviation career - and now he is worried about whether he should tell a DAME.

My view is that on learning the circumstances, I suspect many DAMES would either say or think "I wish you hadn't told me that", because once the confession is in writing on your medical record, your aviation career is over before it's started - that's why some of us told Cetnik to change his nickname if he proceeds.

The related issues are as follows:

Approximately 40% of people over 14 have used illegal drugs at least once in their life. 17% have used within the last year. That means, on the balance of probabilities, that 40% of the aviation workforce would be in exactly the same boat Note: It does not mean that 40% of you are addicts.

What it implies is that if the pilot population is broadly similar to the general population and everyone wrote "no drug use" on their medical questionnaire then there is a 40% chance they are lying. Please don't feel insulted, it's just a statistical conclusion.

As for the actual percentage of aviation professionals who will get nailed by random drug tests, I would expect it will be well under half a percent, as it is apparently with other transport professionals.

The unrelated issues:

Drug use in general, I'm dead against it. Marijuana is vastly underrated as a destroyer of careers, it is NOT a harmless recreational drug, there is no such thing. As for the rest, yuck!

Penalties for dealers? Hanging in the town square.

Soft on drugs hard on drugs? Wrong question: Make drug use and it's consequences an entirely medical/behavioural matter and keep the police right out of it.

Penalties for pilots that get caught? Should be the same as the US alcoholism policy, grounded, treated, tested regularly and eventually returned to flying with regular testing. Second offence, you are out.

I suspect if illegal drugs were available when I was a kid, at a price I could have afforded, I might have decided to try them as well, just out of curiosity - but alcohol got to me first!

Gee it's Friday night and almost time for my legal Cab. Sav. "fix":p

[ampan]

Yes.

And before I fall off my chair - Cetnik: Never mention the subject again, to anyone, doctors included.

[Capt Claret]

Drugs. Close to top of the list of most parents, parental nightmares!

Personally I'm surprised that the stats for 'illegal' drug usage are as low as they are (40%).

As for calling the police, or draging one's offspring off to them, well, when faced with situation of Claret Junior's dalliance with dope, I spoke with a friendly legal eagle. She explained that the risks of an adverse criminal record were high.

Now I wouldn't execute a person for taking drugs, much less my own children, so in the first instance, I'd prefer not to lumber them with a record either.

Now in their mid 20s, do they take drugs? I don't know. They say not. I hope not. But I'd be naive to believe that they tell me everything and that it would be impossible for them to partake.

[atminimums]

Well said Claret. Thats the bottom line - that taking drugs (occasionally) CAN be hidden from parents, and sometimes even friends.

A mate of mine dabbled for months before any of us found out - and to this day, his parents have never been the wiser. Between Uni and Work, its so easy for him to hide it from the 'rentals.

Like most, I am NOT condoning the use of drugs, and have never taken them, nor will I ever. But, frankly, the fact is that they are being used by many, many kids, who can subsequently hide the fact so easily from their parents.

What can be done? Who knows. Maybe more crackdowns by parents, curfews, allowance cuts. In my opinion, until kids are chained to their parents 24/7, then some will continue to ingest illegal substances behind the backs of their folks.. :ugh:

[NAS1801]

Geez....

Again, the reason drugs are becoming an increasing problem is this pussy "go soft" approach advocated by many posting here.

I give up.

Let the fools pop their pills. It will catch up with them one day. I just hope they don't take any innocent people out with them

Also hope those that encouraged junkies to join the industry will accept some responsibility if innocent people are hurt.

[PyroTek]

This topic has drifted to how "us" teens can be caught with drugs and the like, and what should be done.

This topic was to answer whether he'd be okay with flying after a history of drugs.

However, because I'm a little sh*te, i'll add to the topic.

I really think, that teens can be sensible, or not. Those who aren't deserve the consequences.
Honestly, a bit of <insert drug here, excepting Crystal Meth> never hurt anybody. Some would think of it as a thing you could try once. Many drug users start due to peer pressure, and love it. One of my close friends smokes weed, and she is against everything else, including alcohol. She is fine, and sensible about it, as sensible as someone using weed can be. She uses it on weekends, never on weekdays, due to school etc.
Of course it will destroy braincells and the like, but it isn't a scratch compared to the debilitating effects of drugs like Crystal Meth.
Anyway, the teens have ALL seen the facts, I can guarantee it. It is their choice to decide whether to take them seriously, or just think of them as 'fuel' against the use of drugs.
I admit that parents ARE responsible for the actions of their children, but if children are deceitful and dishonest with their parents, then they know what is coming.

I have seen someone at my school go from a pretty smart kid, to someone who just looks blankly while someone talks to him, probably because he spent (literally) Thousands of dollars on drugs, and he is probably stoned half the time anyway.
I have good friends who use weed occasionally, and they are still getting B's and even A's at school. Which, i've seen is a step up from previous results, due to increased study effort knowing that it counts for their leaving result.

As for me, I have seen the warnings, and:
a) stayed completely away from drug culture;
b) when offered drugs, just said no, or whatever, even if it does affect my popularity.
c) I am lucky enough to have a small group of close friends as my friend base, who either is totally against drugs, or doesn't try and persuade you to use drugs. One of them asked me, I said 'no', and they didn't pursue it further.

[Jabawocky]

Glad to hear that Pyro.........

And just keep it that way.:ok:

Otherwise I won't let you come flying in my plane!;)

J:ok:

[rmcdonal]

If you had 2 guys/girls standing in front of your desk with exactly the same resume, and 1 had NEVER tried illegal drugs, but the other had, which one would you choose?
Some people here are saying the drug experimenter because he has more life experiences, others are saying the clean applicant because he had the willpower not to try drugs.
Who would you choose? I know which 1 I would pick...

[Monopole]

I know which 1 I would pick
So do I.......... The one without the tattoo :}

[kalavo]

If you had 2 guys/girls standing in front of your desk with exactly the same resume, and 1 had NEVER tried illegal drugs, but the other had, which one would you choose?
Some people here are saying the drug experimenter because he has more life experiences, others are saying the clean applicant because he had the willpower not to try drugs.
Who would you choose? I know which 1 I would pick...

What on earth makes you think the one trying illegal drugs has more life experience?

Last time there was any sort of mass catch up with people I went to school with... the guys who I knew had been messing with drugs had still never been away from home and really couldn't offer anything substantial with what they'd done since leaving school. (Ok some had some funny stories of when they'd been completely fubar'd, but they were really no more interesting than the stories from people not on drugs but happened to have a big night out on the piss, including one going to the toilet near closing time at a pub overseas and getting locked in the pub for the night from 4am until 10:30am when they reopened).

Meanwhile I had a CPL, CIR/ME, aerobatics rating :E a full time job, been overseas for a little bit, seen a lot of Australia driving around looking for flying work, flown to places most people had never heard of, seen the sunrise and sunset from altitude, loved (and lost). I'd also met some of the most amazing people doing the most amazing things.

So to answer your question.. if I had two people at my desk with exactly the same resume, first of all I'd be trying to establish who copied who, or why their mother gave them both the same name at birth. Then I'd most likely be giving the job to the person who interviews better.

[jbr76]

Honestly, a bit of <insert drug here, excepting Crystal Meth> never hurt anybody.

Thats all it really takes for the damage to be done unfortunately, exactly that ... a "bit of that".

Heroin and Cocaine have extremely complicated physical addictive properties, which ultimately lead the user back again, and again, and again, after the very first "hit". Its the catalyst in the leadup for individual personal self destruction, I have seen it happen to many people over the years and it is upsetting to see not to mention downright disturbing.

THC on the other hand does not hold the same addictive properties as the above, but statistics have proven that people who experiment with the lesser drugs ie THC, move onto the more harder drugs such as Heroin, Cocaine and even Methamphetamines, after they have satisfied their curiosity & want to try something else a bit stronger.

So to be saying that a "bit of drugs except crystal meth never hurt anybody" is extremely naive and misleading.

[Outkast]

Mr Milk's comment about religious people having their head filled with crap IS so true. Mr Milk is certainly an observant human being.

Ever noticed that over zealous christians ( or Muslims.....) ARE a bit zombie like? Don't seem to be able to follow logical arguments, is also a phrase that comes to mind. They stare at their wrist a lot (WWJD) and seem to think something out there will save them. Really not much different from my mate Chris who smokes one joint a day. Cept Chris just stares ahead and uses the word Big Bird instead of Jesus.

Cetnik, I hope for you sake you are not a religious nut as well.

[bush pelican]

This is a very interesting post especially considering the imminent introduction of random drug testing within the aviation community.
What particularly intrigues me are those rabid 'anti drug' commentators who happily admit to smoking and drinking.
In my opinion it is impossible when considering the statistics and other known performance data, to take a positive stance on one and a negative stance on the other. Health workers, academics ,safety authorities and even the government have understood this for a long time.
Take a look at the facts. (Report on costs of drugs to the Aust Community, Macquarie Univ. 2008)
In one year (2004-5) there was $9.2 billion lost in workplace productivity due to tobacco or alcohol and $3.2 billion in road accidents caused by alcohol.
Of the total cost to Australia economy per year of $56 billion (yes billion), $15.3 billion is attributed to alcohol, $31.5 billion to tobacco, and $8.2 billion to other illicit drugs.
Tests done by the ADF and others show that ANY consumption of alcohol impairs performance.
The hangover from even so called 'moderate' recent alcohol consumption impairs performance even more than a drink itself.
Now that we have a prohibition from smoking in many work and public places, what are the effects of nicotine withdrawal on performance in the short term, such as on long flights with difficult terminating procedures? And what about impaired O2 saturation in an emergency?
Those people investigating these links know how real and serious they are.

I for one am sick of filthy fagging pilots, pissed or hung over guys calling in sick OR ill because of their lifestyle habits; and having to pay the huge cost these weak spongers place on me (and the community) in the form of increased operating costs, my medical benefit contribution costs, and all the other costs (taxes) stemming from their self righteous habits. ie 56bill divided by 22mill people is $2545 for every man, woman and child in Australia, per year and that does not take into account the immense pain and suffering caused to innocent people by these habits.

So you self righteous bigots, take a look at yourselves and the **** you're causing, and when you've cleaned up your own act, then consider giving advise to others.

As for you Cetnic, start your Aviation career by making your first command decision, get off all drugs and stay off. If you can't do that, forget it.

BP

[MajorLemond]

mate, we were all young once and part of being young is screwing up and learning from our mistakes, you`ll get ppl here that are quick to critisize but just remember there is more crap talked on this forum than could be thought possible, and many ppl here will get a hard on for flaming you. Be honest with yourself: do you really want to fly for a living and enjoy a unique career, or do you want to look back when you get older and regret blowing your chances. Stop hanging out with ppl that will influence you in the wrong way, and get your act together. If you don`t, You WILL regret it.

[rmcdonal]

Sorry Kalevo, the comment I made referred to a post made by another user several pages back where they stated (or words to that effect) that using drugs is a life experience, and that those who hadn't used somehow missed out on an important life experience..... Personally I prefer the option of being the only one in the sky at dusk over Central oz to being smashed on the garage floor of my olds house, but hey I suppose it all depends on what you consider to be a worthwhile experience. :ok:

[Edition12]

Just to provoke some thought...

An earlier post asked what would be thought of somebody using cannabis legally in Amsterdam, and then being tested in Australia...

Our child protection laws are such that if you have sex with an under 16 year old oversea, regardless of that country's age of consent, you can be prosecuted on your return.

How is the above example any different in principle?

[atminimums]

An earlier post asked what would be thought of somebody using cannabis legally in Amsterdam, and then being tested in Australia...

Our child protection laws are such that if you have sex with an under 16 year old oversea, regardless of that country's age of consent, you can be prosecuted on your return.

I'm no lawyer, but I am pretty sure that the courts could draw a distinct line of difference between those two crimes...


I think this thread has run its course, so why dont we all come to a conclusion(s):

1. Illicit Drugs are bad, and should never be consumed (especially by pilots). No one is debating this fact.

2. No matter the amount of legislation and control, illegal substances will continue to be consumed by both juveniles and professionals alike.

What more needs to be said? Complaining and arguing based on personal perception will acheive nothing, especially on a rumor forum. Besides, if someone is that bothered about the subject, there is a local seat in government that you could run for....

Mins

[Towering Q]

atminimums.....moderator in waiting.:ok:

[max autobrakes]

Only if he works for JetStar!:O

[bushy]

Making things illegal makes it hugely profitable for the trafficers and dealers.This results in an increase in the sales.
The Americans tried to outlaw alcohol a long time ago, and this resulted in wealthy organised crime bosses, with profitable illegal businesses. The americans have been stuck with this ever since.
Countries with liberal laws do much better.
The real solution is to educate people as to the sensible use, or non use of various drugs, and for the governments to get out of the drug dealing business. (nicotine and alcohol)
Australia has been tainted with the miitary philosophy that encourages the use of alcohol, and this is too often misued, with young peole binge drinking. A moderate ammount of alcohol is probably beneficial, but this can be and too often is grossly overdone, causing enormous harm, deaths and destroyed lives.
The effects of alcohol are well known.
But other unknown drugs, from an unknown source with no quality control and unknown effects ??
This is absolute madness.
There is only one thing in this world that is absolutely mandatory and unavoidable, and that is dying. Everything else is optional, but may have consequences. We must be responsible for what we do, and the consequences of those actions. We cannot "pass the buck" to anyone else, or to some mythical superman in the sky, government, the boss or our society.
Alcohol or other drugs may seem to ease the problems for a while, but they are still there, and come back later.
There is no magic potion. They only exist in fairy stories.

[reducing_Nr]

The military is to blame for society's alcohol problems??? hahaha whatever!!!

Perhaps the military has a hand in rising interest rates too :hmm:

[Mr Milk]

Outcast. classic mate. what would big bird do?:}
I love reading threads on pprune because there are so many wankers on here. keep the stupidity rollin out boys.

[star-69]

So a serious question, how would a prospective employer even know he/she answered yes to the drug question on the med questionaire? I would've have thought they would never see it as it is confidential? The dame just assesses whether the applicant is currently worthy of holding a particular class of medical. Or does the whole medical go on show for all to see. I occaisionally have asthma and I'm not sure whether some employers (QF) look favourably on that. Do dames or employers go back to your GP to get more info?
*69

[NAS1801]

I occaisionally have asthma and I'm not sure whether some employers (QF) look favourably on that.

You didn't choose to have asthma. In addition, asthma is not a condition that affects you mental ability so it really is a very different subject to drugs.

[Sunfish]

Oh what tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive!

If you put a dalliance with illegal drugs on your medical records, then fill out a Qantas application questionnaire or suchlike document from another employer saying "No drug use" then in my opinion you have effectively committed the crime of obtaining a financial advantage by deception and it is you who provided the evidence. All that needs to happen then is for either your medical records to become public, or an accident occurs that requires investigators to examine exactly who and what you are.

As is happening all over the world, privacy is becoming a thing of the past, as databases can be searched at the flick of a finger. Of course it's all for the good of the community isn't it?

Here is the catch - the records won't say "Cetnik as a school kid, had a brief fling with eccy's etc. But he is all right now".

Nope, the record will say something like "Cetnik has a history of drug use" or "Cetnik - known drug user".

Or if it's a really big and compact database it will simply say "Cetnik - drug use flag = 1." (ie "Yes")

Some of you must know that your medical records are under continuous assault from insurance companies and employers as well as the government.

And the sad part is, if I was screening Qantas applicants, the first automatic exclusions would be for any exposure to drugs or any psychiatric treatment. And before you try and argue about this being "'reasonable", they will exclude with total disregard for the circumstances, context or timeframe.

I don't know how many times I've had to educate teenagers about the fact that your police and medical records are never erased, and what's on them can seriously reduce your career and earning prospects.

[M14_P]

Tricky corner that one. I would definately stay away for a while if I was you.
I haven't tried anything and that includes so-called party pills, plenty of opportunities to try, but a it doesn't interest me and b it's great to be able to honestly say when the medical review comes up, and to anyone who asks for that matter, never have, never will.

[Capt Wally]

there's a saying, "rob a bank for $1 or for $1000000 yr still a bank robber"
Same goes for drugs, you (as in a generic person) took just a small sample of drugs once then you can do it again at anytime !

No drugs, zero tolerance that's the way it ought to be if we are going to take back control of our streets from the thugs in the AFL/sports (of which there are sooooooooooo many) to the cheats at school.
Personnel opinion only of course


CW

[600ft-lb]

I personally have taken so called mind altering drugs in the past.. Since then I have been totally clean for a period of a couple a years.

Since then I had suffered a bout, lasting about a year, a period of total depersonalisation and a feeling of not even being the person I am, feeling as if I was living life behind a camera, life was happening around me yet I wasn't the one living it. Also at the same time I was suffering debilitating anxiety for no particular reason at all. There was no pre-trauma that I can associate with it, nothing, 1 day it started and I don't know why.

I can tell you straight up, mental illness is a far, far, far more debilitating disorder then any drugs I have ever taken.. Driving a car on pot was nothing compared to driving with an anxiety disorder. The effects of a hallucinagenic were nothing compared to being overcome with fear to point that even leaving your own house was the scariest thing imaginable...

I would be far more worried, having been through both, of a pilot with a mental disorder who cannot function at all, compared to someone whose abilities *MAY* be diminished, yet may not through smoking a bit of pot or indulging in a bit of ecstasy on the weekends..

In other words, there is no point telling the medical officer your history, you'll only ruin a chance at a successful career. The laws are bias against drugs which the UN (USA) consider illegal, alcoholism and mental illness(as long as youre on another mind altering drug, anti depressants and the like) is fine.

[NAS1801]

and the two (drugs/mental ilness), are not related in any way? Hmmmmm cause and effect.

[600ft-lb]

Generally.. no.

Mental illness commonly leads to drug abuse which we can include alcohol abuse.


In my case, it was at least 8 years between the 2, there is no link. It did not cause me to seek out drugs as an excuse etc. You can think what you want, and from reading your previous postings, you are an anti-drug zealot, which is fair enough. But you are commenting about something you don't know. I have first hand experience about both and they are 2 completely different feelings.

[Mr Milk]

Capt wally, from reading a few of your posts you sound like you are on drugs.
my humble opinion of course.......

[ToolPolice]

Thank God! I'm not alone!

[kalavo]

In my case, it was at least 8 years between the 2, there is no link.

Cawh don't you people watch House? :) There's only two causes as to why the patients end up there... it's either drugs they took 10 years ago or it's an autoimmune disease (99% of the time Lupus)! ;)

[Towering Q]

i was sleeping with a different women every weekend and racking up line's of what ever would fit up my nose off there beautiful bare breast's and arses

Sounds like a great job....where do I sign!:E

[HF3000]

A lot of thread drift here... all fascinating, but the question that was asked was this:

I've told my GP about my drug use, so will that come up on my medical when applying to airlines if I don't mention it?I would hope that the answer to that question is an unqualified "NO". If the doctor/patient confidentiality principle is undermined by employer or government department interests then the ability of our society to address reform will be destroyed to our communal detriment.

The interesting question that follows is this: for employment with most airlines you will be interviewed/examined by a "Company-appointed DAME/Medical examiner" as part of you recruitment process. If you choose to lie to this person you may expose yourself if in a future incident investigation your past becomes known and was not disclosed.

So you are in a tricky position. The longer the elapsed time between notified drug use and the time of your application would probably diminish the influence on your application. If, as you say, you are 19 years old and you last used illicit drugs 2 months ago, I would say an employer would flick you like a fly on the face. Alternatively, if you had many years of gainful employment with good references since your "silly youthful drug use as an 18 year old" most employers would put the emphasis on your other attributes, and only small consideration would be placed on that issue.

Should you lie? I don't think anyone would recommend that, that is a risk analysis only you can answer but you need to consider the ramifications should it "come out in the end" after some incident.

Put yourself in the position of Chief Pilot of an Airline for a moment - would you risk putting a pilot with "known drug history" in the hot seat of an airliner carrying hundreds of people? If an incident occurred and the media got hold of the pilot's history, would you want to be defending that?

Plenty of people hide stuff, the measure of what and when is, at the end of the day, up to you - so be careful and be wise (these are attributes of a good pilot, after all.... ) :)

[Dream Land]

Drugs like amphetamines and Ecstasy are no worse than alcohol, don't tell anyone and enjoy flying. :ok:

[bastian]

I wouldn’t be too concerned about what others have to say regarding your permiscuios behaviour.

The do gooders, christians and jahovas ranting and raving that you don’t have a chance, to reconsider your career options and the best you'll do for yourself is Coles or Woolies is just nonsense. However they are right about something, there’s no place for that sort of behaviour if you're serious about flying and it will certainly not be tolerated in a commercial environment.

If you have made a conscious decision that this is what you want to do with your life then stick to it.

LSD and speed aint the best things to be putting through your body, but neither is the copious amounts of alcohol young pilots drink on a weekly basis...but yet we always do it and will continue to do so until the day we work out we're not 10ft tall and bullet proof and other responsibilities set in.

In short if you've got no record, you're right, and don't go to your gp for a medical...he’s probably not a dame anyway.

Don’t mess with the law son and don’t touch the ****e again. You'll only have to fly seedy once to see its just not worth the hassle.

[ules]

Jesus.... i just read the first page of dribble on this thread... all the do gooders on this earth who are so perfect!!! HARDEN THE **** UP!!!! the kid is 19... when i was that age i was sleeping with a different women every weekend and racking up line's of what ever would fit up my nose off there beautiful bare breast's and arses (dear god they were sensational days!)... having the time of my life.I kicked all that **** when i was younger and moved on to a aviation career.... Since then i have operated as captain on multi-engine/single engine military helicopters and now sadly work as an FO for a major long haul airline (the only decent thing about the airlines is the hostess, low level military helicopter flying is almost as good if not better!!!)........ ease up on the kid, he's 19!!!!!

There's no place for it in aviation....but everyone has a past/history... some more colourful than others!!



:D:D:D
well done 10/10 !!!
:ok:

[lowerlobe]

While I don't condone for a second any use of so called recreational drugs whether they are illegal or not we sometimes forget the most abused drug/substance in the world and that is alcohol.

The problem with any of these 'substances' is that they affect and reduce your abiltity to operate and function.That means anything from walking to operating complex equipment.

As much as we can try and educate our children and people in general there will always be people who will try and use substances.

To me that means that anyone who is in a position where lives are at stake should have regular but random drug testing.If you apply for a job such as flying and when tested you have traces of an inhibiting drug in your system then unless you can explain the result you are out as far as I am concerned.

Twiggs....So if we extend your post about not knowing if your teenage children are using drugs you also believe that your husband could have been unfaithful at some time because not to think this would be naive.....

[Capt Wally]

Yr Right 'Mr Milk' I am on drugs, the DRUG FREE trip of life ! It's wonderful, you ought to try it sometime !:)

Remember drugs are a choice, only you are responsible for yr own actions, although these days you would think that there are so many excuses/ escapes that one can do pretty much what they want & not be responsible for it!:bored:



CW

[tinpis]

From Jack Marx blog

"Hello. I’d like a packet of Winfield Red 25’s, please.”

“Ah. I’m sorry, we’re not permitted to call them that any longer, sir.”

“Oh. What are they now called, then?”

“Well, I’m not permitted to give you that information as that would constitute promotion of a dangerous and possibly deadly substance and to do so would contravene current Federal Government initiatives in the War on Tobacco.”

“Do you sell cigarettes?”

“Why, yes, of course. We have over 40 varieties under the counter!”

“May I have a packet?”

“What would you like a packet of, sir?”

“Whatever Winfield Red 25’s are called nowadays.”

“I wouldn’t know, sir. The manufacturers are no longer permitted to brand their product. We can only sell them by number.”

“Number?”

“Number 1, Number 2, Number 3 ... and so on and such forth up to Number 40.”

“What are the strongest?”

“I’m not at liberty to say, sir. Federal laws, War on Smoking ... the economic disadavantages to the community caused by consumption of addictive and dangerous drugs. Quite staggering it is too, sir. Did you know, for example-”

“I don’t give a f**k. Gimme a packet of cigarettes!”

“What type of cigarettes, sir?”

“The strongest.”

“I wouldn’t know which ones they would be, sir.”

“It’s still legal, isn’t it?”

“Oh, absolutely, sir!”

“Gimme a pack of ... 16’s ... I’ll wing it.”

“Pleasure. Now, as part of the Federal Government’s War on Tobacco, each sale of a packet of cigarettes must now be accompanied by ... A Quit pack - here you go. A wall poster of a diseased lung. A gangrenous toe ... I’ll just pop that in a bag for you ... A copy of Professor Collins’ and Lapsley’s “Estimating the Economic Costs of Drug Abuse in Australia” ... fascinating reading it is, too, if I may say so myself ... and ... hmmm ... I’m sure there’s something else ... Oh, yes, a deformed foetus in a belljar.”

“A deformed foetus in a belljar?”

“Smoking may harm your baby, sir.”

“I don’t have a f**king baby!”

“Only a matter of time, sir ... Perhaps you could use it as a hood ornament in the meantime.”

[Mesopause]

My CASA doc told me of a young fellow last year who, like most budding pilots, wanted to fly since about the age of 4.

He, like you, took some drugs which he disclosed to the CASA quack during his pilot medical and was told he would NEVER hold a licence because of his poor decision making.

The reason is that the substances are addictive and you and CASA will never know if you are going to be tempted to take them again when next you feel under pressure.

Sorry Mate!!

[DHC6to8]

I'll tell you a little story mate... a good friend of mine went for the same selection as I did... we lived in the same place in Afrika for over 2 years together.... I passed and he didn't... you know why? Well, he smoked dope, dropped pills and drank himself stupid every weekend... and I had no farking idea he was doing this and we were mates... but during the selection every candidate had to sign a release form, piss in a cup, give blood, and a hair clipping..... guess what... I came out clean without worries mate.... my mate got dropped from the program, and the prospective employer made sure every other major airline within 100 miles knew about him. I work for a respectful, professional airline now. My mate floats between bush operators on small equipment wondering where he went wrong...
I would tend to say that once you go down this path of substance abuse it will forever follow you. If you like to drop pills for a good time, who's to say that droping pills to stay awake on a long haul or to go to sleep won't come into play.
Please go tell the medical doctor what you have been doing and seek professional advice and or help.
Cheers mate
6to8

[Poto]

Don't worry Cetnik you can be my wingman anytime;)

I have never try Marajowahna but I might try the " Assasin of youth, the Sh!t, the gear, the ace, ganja, ditchweed, Whacky tabaccy, the blonde, some boom, the yen pop, the white haired lady, the sweet lucy, the jive stick, the joy smoke, the green, the griffo,"

But Of course I would never inhale:ok: