logging flight time

[WIKI44]

I have a few queries about logging flight time, as follows:

1) Can a PPL holder or above, log flight tests and checkrides, such as for the issue of CPL, ME-CIR, as PIC, if he/she is endorsed on type? Or does it count as dual?
2) Is there anytime two pilots can log PIC simulataneously ?
3) What manner of flight time logging, if any, can a safety pilot undertake?

Just a bit curious. Seems like people are doing some strange things in the USA and their interpretations of logging PIC. It is my view that a pilot, no matter what class of license he holds, must log flight time under instruction always as dual.
Moreover, even though a pilot may be endorsed on type, if he/she is undergoing a flight test, then that must also be logged as dual. After all the testing officer, who will almost invariable be much more qualified and expirienced, is ultimately responsible for the safe conduct of the flight, even though you might be the sole manipulator of controls.
I would appreciate some input from others as to how they log their flight times.

cheers.

[Peter Fanelli]

Depends entirely on the rules pertaining to the license you hold.
Don't go by US regs if not flying on a US license. US rules are so stupid an ATP holder in the back seat of a cherokee may be deemed to be PIC by a court if the two PPL's in the front seats screw up.

[mattyj]

Someone told me the other day that you can log microsoft time in the states??

[VH-FTS]

1. Must be logged as dual. The ATO is PIC.
2. No. The closest is one logs PIC, the other ICUS. Does not apply to private flights before anyone gets carried away.
3. None. They are a glorified passenger.

[Condition lever]

FTS

What if the ATO is not qualified on type?

[RadioSaigon]

hmmm... some more differences in AUS/NZ law:

1: Yes, you can, do and should log all flight-test time of whatever nature as PinC. You are the PinC; the flight-testing officer is there to check and assess your conduct of the flight as PinC, not to instruct you or in any other way manipulate the controls, unless you get yourself into a situation which you can't recover.
2: No. There can only ever be one individual in command at a time. Either you are or you are not. Log it appropriately.
3: I'm not sure of the current state of Safety Pilot time logging, despite having logged some myself years ago. Best check with the regulator if you can't find definitive answers in your AIP.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

1. Must be logged as dual. The ATO is PIC.


FTS, you sure about that?

My understanding is that the candidate is considered to be PIC for the flight test!

Dr :8

[Lasiorhinus]

Not sure about that, Dr Killer... in a flight test, for example an instrument rating initial issue, the candidate does not yet hold the instrument rating, therefore cannot fly as PIC under the IFR. Ergo, the examiner, who one assumes is qualified, is PIC.

[bentleg]

You might also check out the Ops manaual where you fly. Where I fly it states the instructor is the PIC in all dual, test and check flight situations.

[Steve Zissou]

Yes matty J that is true, you can log MFS time in your log book and United Airlines will hire you once you've got 1,000 hrs on the 757...

[RadioSaigon]

You might also check out the Ops manaual where you fly...

I'm pretty sure the legislation will over-ride any operators' expressed preferences refenced within their ops manual bentleg. Regardless of whatever wish the operator has mandated via their ops manual, the legislation will reference the legal obligations you have wrt logging the time. Having said that, it would be a very unusual occurrence (or an over-sight) for the regulator to approve an ops manual that contravenes their own current rules and legislation.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

1) Oz PPL Flight Test - logged with FTO as PIC
2) Oz Class 4 IR - logged with self as PIC
3) NZ CPL Flight Test - logged with self as PIC
4) NZ C Cat Flight Test - logged with self as PIC
5) NZ SECIR Flight Test - logged with self as PIC
6) Oz CPL Flight Test - logged with self as PIC
7) Oz MECIR Flight Test - logged with self as PIC

Beats me!

Dr :8

PS: ......but then again, I've also done 3 x MECIR renewals all logged as PIC in an aeroplane for which I don't hold an endorsement!

[VH-FTS]

I can't find the reg to back it up, but everyone I know has logged flight tests as dual. A bit frustrating to base a comment on hearsay.

However, I bet the ATO isn't logging the time as dual...

[Condition lever]

FTS

As I previously indicated the ATO does not necessarily log any flight time at all - let alone PIC.
I have had an ATO sitting in the jumpseat who was not qualified on type - how could he possibly log command time??
Goes to show broad reaching statements can often be fraught with inaccuracy.

[kalavo]

I thought that the regs were pretty clear that it was up to the operator to nominate a Pilot In Command for every flight, and the vast majority of flying schools ops manuals nominate the ATO as PIC on a flight test?

Will go looking for references tonight.

[VH-FTS]

We are talking about your typical GA flight test, not too many jump seats in a Cessna.

If you have a look at the CPL 150hour test checklist, it requires the following from the ATO:

Holds a current Class 1 medical
Holds a CPL or higher
Holds a Grade 1 instructor rating
Holds testing approval
Is endorsed on the aircraft type/class at the time of flight test

[Chocks Away]

Training: the ATO/Instructor is the one in Command, teaching you how to... , so logged as Dual (Instructional).

Test: You are ICUS with the ATO really "in command"/responsible for any stuff ups. Not until you gain your logbook sticker/endorsement/kiss on the cheek are you able to log straight command time, for whatever you did your test for.

Renewals on equip/quals that you already have, I have always logged as ICUS, purely because the flight test is seeing if I'm up to scratch. If I am, I get the renewal/stamp/kiss on the cheek again (:p)

Not gospel of course, just how I've been informed to do it.

:ok:

[Atlas Shrugged]

CAR 5.78 says that a PPL is authorised to fly an aeroplane as PIC or co-pilot whilst the aerpolane is engaged in private operation or as PIC in flying training operations.

The only mention of training operations in the classification of "private operation" is conversion training for the purpose or endorsement of an additional type or category of aircraft.

:ugh:

[Lasiorhinus]

CAR 5.78 says that a PPL is authorised to fly an aeroplane as PIC or co-pilot whilst the aerpolane is engaged in private operation or as PIC in flying training operations.

That does not, however, mean that a PPL holder in an aircraft engaged in flying training operations must be the PIC.


When you're paying for an instructor to sit next to you (be they an examiner or not), the time is dual.

All other times are Command. ICUS is only available under specific conditions spelled out in the Ops Manual of the company, and not available at all unless you hold a CPL.

[Zoomy]

Whats a couple of extra hours the concern for anyway, with all the traineeships on offer its not like you need 6000PIC hours.
I wish people would get the whole hour thing out of their head and worry about gaining some experience instead.

:ouch:

[RadioSaigon]

I wish people would get the whole hour thing out of their head and worry about gaining some experience instead.


Maybe you're missing the point Zoomy: the getting of experience and the accurate recording of that flight-time (experience) in the legally mandated manner is the point. Pretty much the rest of your future career hinges on that, not to mention the relatively severe penalties that may be imposed for false recording of flight time.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

CAR 5.78
(1) A private pilot (aeroplane) licence authorises the holder of the licence:
(a) to fly an aeroplane as pilot in command, or as co-pilot, while the
aeroplane is engaged in a private operation; and
(b) to fly an aeroplane as pilot in command while the aeroplane is
engaged in flying training operations for the purpose of
increasing the holder’s flying skill.

Probably find this relates to areas such as building hours for CPL requirements.

http://casa.gov.au/fcl/flight_time.htm
Pilot in Command
means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time.
Note: CAR 224 requires that for each flight the operator shall designate one pilot to act as pilot in command.


CAR 224
(3) The pilot in command shall have final authority as to the disposition of
the aircraft while he or she is in command and for the maintenance of
discipline by all persons on board.

I would think the ATO would have a better claim to this criteria than the licence applicant.:hmm:

[Lasiorhinus]

Its probably a wise idea, upon the completion of a flight test, to double-check with the examiner, both the exact duration of the flight, and the column in which it goes!

"That was 2.4 dual, right?"

[WIKI44]

Some interesting suggestions. Logging is a bit of a contentious issue it seems.
There are a few things I think, that can be surmised however;
a. initial me-cir flight test cannot be counted as pic. one cannot operate as pic under IFR unless holding the necesary rating. A renewal perhaps, if the flight test is done before the rating expires. I always thought it was common practice to log a renewal as ICUS, and letting the bloke on the right log PIC.
b. one cannot fly as pic in an aircraft for which one isnt endorsed. i think that is the whole point of being endorsed.
c. icus can only be logged when one holds a CPL or higher category license.
d. bl**dy americans want to log everything they possibly can as PIC. Its really terrible. I have many friends who have done their training there. After their PPl they feel they can log every flight as PIC, even though their instructor is also logging, and i doubt its dual. to make things worse, everytime they fly with a friend, one logs PIC under simulated IF, and the other logs PIC because he is the "safety pilot" and as such ultimately responsible for the same conduct of the flight.
It just boggles my mind how these kinds of activities are encouraged by the schools.
Things were quite simple in my school:
a. if there is an instructor on board then it is dual.
b. if there is no instructor on board then it is PIC.
I don't think i'd feel comfortable logging it any other way.

[27/09]

In New Zealand any sucessfully completed flight test is logged as P in C. If you fail it is logged as dual.

You are being examined in the capacity of P in C. It is not a dual flight. At the completion of the test I can recall being specifically told by the examiner that I log the flight as P in C.

As far as I can recall with the exception of the PPL flight test the candidate must have a type rating signed off for that aircraft prior to attempting the flight test, this is part of the P in C requirements.

The only time that two people in New Zealand can log P in C is during a flight test, the candidate for a successful test and the examiner.

A safety pilot cannot log any time at all in New Zealand, however if a safety pilot is used, for example during I/F currency under the hood, the safety pilots name must be shown in the P in C's logbook.

[Flyer517]

OK how about this situation? I have a PPL Single Engine Land, I put a hood on and a mate (also a PPL) comes along in the right seat to look out for traffic. I motor along for a hour under the hood.

Can I look that as an hour IF?

I have been with instructors who don't have an instrument rating themselves and have simulated instrument flight with me in the left seat. I logged it as IF then at their instruction.

Interested in your comments and thanks in advance.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Can I look that as an hour IF?

Your mate's a Safety Pilot. If you have a CIR (current), yes you can log it.

I have been with instructors who don't have an instrument rating themselves and have simulated instrument flight with me in the left seat. I logged it as IF then at their instruction.

Only a Grade 1 instructor with a current CIR or a lower grade with IF Training Approval can instruct CIR sequences.
All other instructors can teach basic I/F. (not approaches/holding/arrivals etc)
You log it as I/F. They can't enter IMC and log their time as VFR command only.
:ok:

[StrutlessDrKiller]

In New Zealand any sucessfully completed flight test is logged as P in C.

Ah ha! That's where I got it from!

Dr :8

[Kulwin Park]

In Oz, I was told the other day that the time you log into your logbook is:

Airswitch Time (wheels off to wheels on) ...BUT, then someone says that logged time can be:

VDO or Tacho Time (Engine start to engine shut down) ...Sooooo, which is it when logging time???? Obviously the 2nd option would generate more hours in the logbook! :)

Cheers, KP

[PPRuNeUser0182]

Hi Kulwin Park,

Have a look at http://www.casa.gov.au/fcl/flight_time.htm.

Flight Time
means, in the case of a heavier-than-air aircraft, the total time from when the aircraft first moves under its own power.............'chock to chock', 'block to block' or 'push back to block' time.


Cheers

Charlie