PC12 operations at Elstree

[flyboy1818]

One flight and a few beers later I'm here to ask for everyones opnion on PC12 operations from Elstree, these are becoming more frequent. First it was one aircraft now it appears to be two!

Elstree is a cramped little airfield and in my opnion these operations are potentially dangerous and should stop! There were two PC12's at Elstree today. One was parked on the ramp area next to the holding point and when the other came in it had to park on the taxiway leading to other aircraft being obstructed and having to make a u-turn after fuelling at the pumps.

I'm airing this because I don't believe that the whole airfield should come to a stop so that some ponce who wants to transfer from his PC12 to a helicopter in a flash or fly his kids back from wherever can do so. There are plenty of more suitable airfields just as near to London for this type of operation, so why is this going on at Elstree! Guys lets stand up for GA and prevent this dangerous mixture, because its my aircraft or yours thats getting smashed in by the wing tip of a taxing PC12 sooner or later!

[Henry Hallam]

Sounds like someone's a little bit jealous.
There is no reason to expect the qualified pilot of a turboprop to pay any less due care and attention to other aircraft than each of us would.

If they are blocking the taxiway for an extended period that's another matter but that has nothing to do with the type.

Perhaps you should post again with a less beery head!

[Duchess_Driver]

Yep, I'm up for that!

While we're on, let's ban King Air's - at 16m they're just as big (but they've been around for years!) oh, and Islanders also - they're nearly as big at 14 metres wide.

Now that we've banned Islanders - let's move on to Cessna 421's - they're 12 metres wide - oh, where should we stop? PA-42's at 13m. Next? the humble 182 at 10m, that must be a candidate?


:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Lurking123]

I would ban Elstree. Too many aircraft crammed into a shabby little airfield which has ideas above its station. Oh, and such a ridiculous cct procedure.
Go and have another beer.:O

[shy_one]

Elstree is a sh*t hole of a place to go. Avoid at all costs.



shy_one

[flyboy1818]

I object to the PC12 and only the PC12 because there is not enough ramp space for the aircraft, its as simple as that. I have never seen a King Air plonked on the taxiway at Elstree obstructing all the other movements....... If elstree had the ramp space and a taxiway system that was not bumper to bumper, wing to wing then why not, but guys lets be honest its not really a compatible type now is it?

[coodem]

Why don't many people like Elstree? I have been flying there for a few years now, can't say I have had any problems. It's centrally located, easy for me to get to. Don't have any problems getting in or out of the place. Don't often get queues trying to get out. Sometimes ATC get a bit grumpy, but they are just trying to do their job and make sure evrything flows well.

[TheOddOne]

The problem is Elstree, not the PC12! B200 are just as big and create just as much congestion.

Don't forget that these larger types usually pay much more than us in landing fees, helping to subsidise our flying.

Unfortunately I have to fly in/out of Elstree on a regular basis. The whole pace has a run-down air about it and last week was infested with flies, most unpleasant. The solution for me would be to close it down and re-locate at Radlett, but I'm not sure that's really feasable any more.

TheOddOne

[Flyin'Dutch']

Flyboy,

As others have alluded to, these bigger birds contribute to the financial health of airfields and by doing so keep them viable.

[flyboy1818]

Yes I know this only too well, I work in Business Aviation, but there has to be a limit at every airfield and I feel that the PC12 is going beyond the airfields limit in terms of taxiway and ramp space. In flying terms the aircraft fits in well with the other traffic, its the ground congestion and the potential for damage where I see the problem. If the owners of Elstree really want to support this kind of operation then why don't they invest in some more ramp space?

As an airfield in general I find elstree ok, but as pointed out it lacks in places. I'm not going to write another post on this thread as I have had my rant for the weekend!

[Wrong Stuff]

If the owners of Elstree really want to support this kind of operation then why don't they invest in some more ramp space?
I think that's a first for PPRuNe - the words "invest" and "Elstree" appearing in the same sentence. Unfortunately, if rumours are to be believed, the owner's longer term plans would make any such investment a waste of money.

[dmbaker]

I love seeing the larger craft at Elstree and two together was great. Lets try and encourage this kind of traffic.

[drauk]

"the owner's longer term plans would make any such investment a waste of money."

hahahahahahaha. His "longer term" plans? Have you met the owner?

[S-Works]

He makes George Burns look young......

[TheOddOne]

...and still flying that twin thing of his around. Amazing.

TOO

[flybymike]

I think it was George Burns who said,

"Sex in your nineties, is like shooting Pool with a rope..."

[Wrong Stuff]

"the owner's longer term plans would make any such investment a waste of money."

hahahahahahaha. His "longer term" plans? Have you met the owner?

Many people get confused between John Houlder, who operates the aerodrome, and Lord Aldenham who owns it.

[echobeach]

PC12 operations at Elstree

I saw two of these land and taxi last week at elstree. I must say my only thought was how excellent it would be to get into the left seat of one of these beautiful looking craft.:) Sadly little hope of this and it is back to the old spam can for me.
Also impressed at their reversing ability which seemed to make the most of the tighter taxi space at the field

[felixflyer]

So what are these rumours about his longer term plans then?

[PPRuNe Radar]

Sometimes ATC get a bit grumpy, but they are just trying to do their job and make sure evrything flows well.

Please don't encourage Mr Grumpy to think he is ATC. He already does !!

[tonyaddison]

what a dump, horrible rude staff especialy the tower staff,crap short runway,awfull cafe, all those dead / dying aircraft with green stuff growing on them and a fuel bay on a slope.i think its probably the worst place ive been to. i can only think they must have bribed whoever wrote the recent article in a mag . avoid at all costs

[markflyer6580]

One flight and a few beers

Drinking and flying eh?:E

[will fly for food 06]

If there are any pc12 pilots on here i would like to ask them a few questions regards operating the aircraft and flying in an out of elstree. Thanks.

[TheOddOne]

Drinking and flying eh?

Sounds more like flying and drinking, nothing wrong with that!!!!!!!:ok:

TOO

[niknak]

First step would be to ask the PC12 owners to cooperate, there's every chance they don't realise they're causing a problem and secondly ask them, as the payer of higher landing fees at Elstree, to put pressure on the airfield owners to do something about it.
Clearly the PC12 owners have business in the Elstree area, but equally there are other airfields in the area who would appreciate their business.

[chrisbl]

Elstree is not that bad - people are prone to a bit of exaggeration.

Sure it is cramped - but that is because of its good location for N London.

Because its busy it can be a bit hairy at times but that is down to pilots being t**ts at times.

I would describe it as the Popham of North London. Sloping runway, aircraft everywhere very busy, and occasionally someone the radio who gets exasperated by the aformentioned t**ts who make flying into both of the airfields harder than it need be.

[Duchess_Driver]

Niknak....

There are other airfields in the area that GET and appreciate their business. That said - If I want to fly to Elstree for a business meeting then I'm not going to fly to Stapleford then hire a taxi am I?

[BartV]

One flight and a few beers later

I have been reading PPRuNe for a while and i must say this is one of the most stupid posts i have ever seen over here, flyboy1818 you should be ashamed of yourself, this is not a pilots mentality

[niknak]

DD,
my point was that the owners of Elstree should appreciate that to keep the business of the people who pay more, they should go that extra mile to accomodate them, not that you should go elsewhere.

[rojread]

Seems nothing has changed in the last 44 years!

I first flew in to Elstree in August 64, no radio, in an Auster J1N from Skegness on my 40-odd hour old PPL. Also my first non-grass landing (but I even managed that quite well). It was scruffy, crowded, unfriendly and from these thread comments, pretty much as it has ever been.

On taxiing in I almost got run down by some plook in a Spitfire. Two tail-draggers trying to peer over the nose and only one talking to the tower?

It was quite a while before I ventured out of Lincolnshire in an aircraft after that! Mind you, since then I've flown into hundreds of airports, airfields, and air strips that were similar or a lot worse!

My sympathies to those who still hang out there, of necessity

[G Sacks]

I am one of the the ponce's!!!! - quite willing to discuss it at Elstree anytime you like!!!!!!!!

[Fried_Chicken]

Unfortunetly, with the larger Airports around London (Luton, Farnborough, Stansted etc..) all getting busier (more congested) with most/all requiring slots, handling etc.., you'll probably find more aircraft such as King Air's & Pc12's making use of the smaller GA Airfield's around the London Area. (I'm sure Luton would rather handle a Gulfstream than a Pc12)

North Weald has a couple of based King Air's (along with the occasional visit of a Challenger bizjet!), Denham see's regular visits by Pc12's, Blackbushe has regulars visits by King Air's, Beechjets, Citations etc & Fairoaks has a based Pc12, based TBM700 & a couple of King Air's along with regular visits by such aircraft. Also, Stapleford has a couple of King Air's based.

Wait till VLJ's really start to take off (excuse the pun) & start to frequent these smaller Airfields!

FC

[Duchess_Driver]

Niknak....

I'm sure the PC12 Driver or (laughs!) his operations department are told where to go to drop of X and pick up Y etc...As the owner or customer I don't necessarily care what inconvenience I'm causing if it saves me time and/or money. I suppose the surroundings don't really matter to me either, as the kind of people who are using these aircraft are more than likely 'working on the move' and probably wouldn't notice.

Me thinks the owners of Elstree are aware of it's locale and the benefits that it brings...therefore aren't really up for spending money when there is no reason to.

As Fried Chicken points out, the number and variety of types operating into Denham, Elstree, Fairoaks......etc.. is only going to get bigger and the congestion worse.

[ShyTorque]

Elstree
What a dump, horrible rude staff especialy the tower staff,crap short runway,awfull cafe, all those dead / dying aircraft with green stuff growing on them and a fuel bay on a slope.i think its probably the worst place ive been to. i can only think they must have bribed whoever wrote the recent article in a mag . avoid at all costs

What terrible things to say. Unfortunately, I have to agree. My least favourite airfield in UK, apart from Fenland.

[niknak]

Shytorque

What's wrong with Fenland?

[ShyTorque]

The attitude of the people who run it..

[niknak]

Must admit that I've never heard that about Fenland, but as I've not been there for years I'll take your word for it.
Perhaps you could enlighten us all (and them).

[ShyTorque]

They know already. That'll do.

[Lurking123]

I've spent a week or so mulling over Elstree and trying to ascertain if there are any plus points.

I'll get back to you in another few weeks.

[julian_storey]

What's wrong with Fenland?

What IS wrong with Fenland? (Once you've found it of course :) )

[Mr Cessna]

Having worked at Elstree for a short while, I found it to be an interesting place with many different types of aircraft (and a very nice bar)... Allthough I found most of the staff, ground crew and ATC to be ignorant, unhelpful, lazy, foul mouthed, grumpy but most of all very rude!

The worst I ever saw was a helicopter firm based at Elstree who always used to slag clients/customers off behind their backs and they were the most unorganised group of people I have ever met, let alone worked with!

3 months was enough for me, I just had to leave. I have never had an expirience that bad before or since then :)

Finally... I have seen the PC12 several times at Elstree and the scariest part is watching one perform a touch and go! :mad: Them friggas use EVERY inch of the runway! doesnt look safe atall but a lovely aeroplane :ok:

Sorry in advance for any offence caused but you must be insane to have anything to do with elstree!

Mr Cessna

[Hamish 123]

Fantastic! Another "Let's all have a go at Elstree" string resurrected! Were that all GA aerodromes like Sywell!

Unfortunately they're not. Much like life then - very rarely is everything perfect.

So it's got a sloping runway. And a non-standard joining procedure. And the bloke in the tower is a bit grumpy. And it appears there's no money being spent on it.

Get f**king real. This is GA in the depths of a crippling recession. It's an airfield close to London that's still operating. If you can't cope with bolshy AFIS, funny joining procedures, lots of Class A airspace around you - and a funny runway - don't bother. Or go to Stapleford. Bleating about it is utterly pointless.

[englishal]

do you work there by any chance?

[Hamish 123]

If I did, I'd say so. Just getting fed up with the continual whinging about the place.

[Mr Cessna]

Hamish 123... Im sure that if you were treated like sh*te for just doing your job to the best of your standards you too would have something against the people there. As you say Elstree its self is not a bad aerodrome. Just a shame about the people who work there.

Mr Cessna

[SkyHawk-N]

If anyone thinks Elstree is tight for a PC-12 watch this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZd_stpxqjI) showing a PC-12 going into one of my local airports, Pacific City in Oregon, where the runway is 1875ft x 30ft. They could have stopped well before the 300ft displaced threshold at the far end.

[chevvron]

Unless the customer specifically designates Elstree surely they would use Denham instead?
Much more room there.

[AdamFrisch]

I've only been into Elstree a couple of times, but both times they've been nothing but friendly and very helpful in the tower. The runway was in bits, though. Literally had to plop her down between huge boulders of dislodged asphalt bits. It was like running a gauntlet.

[notfarg]

Just imagine how crowded it was then in 1946 when London Aero and Motor Services bought 6 Handley Page Halifax bombers and took them to Elstree for conversion to freighters ! Just to help things along one of them G-AHZM had its undercarriage collapse whilst taxiing out for test flight . They had a wingspan of 103 ft 8 inches .