Heads up for LAA (PFA) groups.

[foxmoth]

Just renewing the Permit on our aircraft to find the rules have changed and now all group members on a permit aircraft have to be members of the LAA - used to be just a recommendation not a requirement.

[robin]

Nothing new - its been like this for quite a while, although it used to be the PFA, of course

[foxmoth]

Nothing new - its been like this for quite a while,

It was not the case last year when we renewed!

[CottonEyeJoe]

Just join stop whinning!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rod1]

“It was not the case last year when we renewed!”

The rule was in but it was not being enforced.

Rod1

[Flyin'Dutch']

“It was not the case last year when we renewed!”

The rule was in but it was not being enforced.

Rod1

Rod,

How are they going to enforce this?

What percentage of syndicate members has to have signed up for the Permit to be issued?

What if there is only one dissenter in a big(gish) group?

[Solar]

Here we go once more.
Think this subject has been mentioned once or twice before and the geneneral concensus is that most would expect that all group members should be LAA members but there doesn't seem to be a way to enforce it legally.
It would appear to be a feeble attempt to gain some revenue for the LAA which I don't think will enhance their coffers greatly.

[Rod1]

“How are they going to enforce this?

What percentage of syndicate members has to have signed up for the Permit to be issued?

What if there is only one dissenter in a big(gish) group?”

Why ask me? I think it is a very stupid approach to a very simple problem. There has been considerable opposition to it and now the LAA will suffer. I wish things were different, but no organization is perfect and the LAA is better than most.

Rod1

[Flyin'Dutch']

Why ask me?

'Cause you are close to the hierarchy!

I was wondering if they had developed some policy on how to deal with dissenters, which I am sure there will be.

[Them thar hills]

One further point, if group members wish do their revalidations on their own aircraft via the LAA Coaching scheme they have to be LAA members...
tth

[Flyin'Dutch']

I see that the charge for doing this via the PCS is £35.

I thought that on permit aeroplanes you either have to be the sole owner or their spouse and that the instructor had to hold a CPL and class 1.

Don't know if any of the coaches are CRIs but CRIs are not always CPLs.

[rohmer]

CPLs are not required for BFRs and I think the Association ensured that all the coaches now have CRI status.

[Flyin'Dutch']

CPLs are not required for BFRs and I think the Association ensured that all the coaches now have CRI status.

In order to be able to receive payment or valuable consideration for aerial work one needs at least a CPL and Class 1 medical, unless there is a CAA exemption such as exists for microlighting.

Indeed no need for a CPL for BFRs, a CRI will do, but most CRIs will not have CPLs I hazard a guess.

[Rod1]

“I was wondering if they had developed some policy on how to deal with dissenters, which I am sure there will be.”

The “hierarchy” and I differ on this! I cannot see how a permit can be withheld from 19 fully paid up members if the 20th owner refuses to join. I assume the LAA would back down if this happened, but that is just a personal view. There are 100’s of problems with implementation and policing and the unscrupulous will slide through the cracks generating even more ill feeling.

I apologize if I came across as defensive, but a surprising number of people have tried to give me a hard time about this and I have opposed it from day one.

Rod1

[Flyin'Dutch']

I apologize if I came across as defensive, but a surprising number of people have tried to give me a hard time about this and I have opposed it from day one.

You didn't, and I know you opposed it from the outset.

;)

I am just curious how they will deal with it as I agree with your view that coming down like this and then not enforcing it will create more ill-will amongst the consenters.

Anyway I have asked the question on the LAA BB so hopefully someone from the hierarchy will take the time to read and respond.

[Ken Wells]

Just join you miserable so an so!!

If you run a PFA (LAA) aircraft you should be a member!

[Mariner9]

Fine in principle Ken, but would you ground an aircraft perhaps owned by several paid-up LAA members if just 1 dissenter in the group refuses to join?

If I ever sell shares in my aircraft I will insist on LAA membership. However thats because I consider its the right thing to do, not because of some daft rule.

[Ken Wells]

If the person refuses they are not entering into the spirit of the PFA (LAA) although it has had it many faults since it started, without it aviation would have been alot more expensive for many permit pilots.

[Rod1]

“If you run a PFA (LAA) aircraft you should be a member!”

Completely agree with the above. In fact I think all who fly an LAA aircraft should be members. I think they should join out of choice, not through some ½ thought out rule, which will bring the LAA into disrepute! I was a member for over 10 years before I built an aircraft and I do not want to share the association with a load of press ganged guys who will do nothing for us.

Rod1

[Flyin'Dutch']

Just join you miserable so an so!!

If you run a PFA (LAA) aircraft you should be a member!

Ken, darling.

Happy to concede that I am a miserable so and so!

However I have been a member for 10 years or so; and I don't even have an LAA aeroplane nor am building one.

I joined because I support(ed) the cause of the PFA and one day may well want to build an aeroplane and because I enjoyed the annual Rally.

With the latter gone and some of the attitudes that the LAA/PFA has/had that is something that needs to be reconsidered.

[Penny Washers]

I have a sleeping partner - he hasn't been near the aircraft for over ten years.

How am I going to get him to join up?

[will5023]

Hi Flying-Dutch, I have answered your questions on the LAA forum about the LAA/PCS Coaches, it does not matter what aeroplane, permit or CofA you have, as long as you are a LAA member your can use the coaches for BFR and more. All coaches are at least CRI's, allot of us hold higher ratings, but offer our services in the spirit of the LAA for a small fee. This is approved by the CAA and is for the LAA/PCS scheme. Hope to see some of you at the LAA/PCS trainning days at various airfields around the UK during the season, see the LAA mag for details....you have to be a member to get that too !!

Will.

[Pudnucker]

I agree with Ken - if you are going to run a permit plane be a member.. Simple as that

(I am and my plane is on a c of a but want to support people who stand up for light aircraft users - and the membership fee represents in £££ terms about one circuit so what's the big deal?)

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi all
It is a requirement of the IAA, over here in Ireland, that all Permit aircraft owners be members of their relevant organisation,as the IAA require the organisation to be able to "promulgate essential information" (their words)via the organisation's media as well as relying on the IAA's own distribution system.
Apart from that, the cost of membership is so small, it would be petty not to.
regards
TDD

[Flyin'Dutch']

Will,

Thanks for that I shall have a look shortly.

The main question was whether CRIs who may not have a CPL or class 1 can instruct under this scheme and the LAA paid for it?

[foxmoth]

Just join stop whinning!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do not see how mearly pointing out the facts is classed at whinning, there might have been some later in the thread, but when you posted this all it was was a "heads up" and a little further info - don't be so quick!:*

As far as the CRIs under the coaching scheme goes, my understanding is that they cannot charge for the instructing, but they may be able to charge reasonable expenses, i.e. travelling.;)

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I think you were being encouraged to start lhosing.

[S-Works]

Quote:
CPLs are not required for BFRs and I think the Association ensured that all the coaches now have CRI status.
In order to be able to receive payment or valuable consideration for aerial work one needs at least a CPL and Class 1 medical, unless there is a CAA exemption such as exists for microlighting.

Indeed no need for a CPL for BFRs, a CRI will do, but most CRIs will not have CPLs I hazard a guess.

LAA coaches are able to take valuable consideration which includes hard cash for their services as coaches without a CPL or Class 1 Medical. All LAA coaches are a minimum of CRI now and a minimum of 1500hrs.

The LAA are exempted from Article 26 of the ANO 2005 under a special exemption that is renewed yearly at the end of March. The exemption list carries the name of all LAA PCS coaches. All LAA Coaches are also authorised under Par 3(1) Sec 2 Part C of schedule 8 as revalidation examiners.

I have this years Exemption on the desk in front of me.

The LAA publish a list of charges on the LAA website as a guide that an LAA Coach may make. CRI's/FI's without a CPL are therefore able to take payment without any underhand transactions having to take place.

[Flyin'Dutch']

LAA coaches are able to take valuable consideration which includes hard cash for their services as coaches without a CPL or Class 1 Medical. All LAA coaches are a minimum of CRI now and a minimum of 1500hrs.

Are those 1500hrs an entry requirement to become an LAA coach as a CRI?

[rans6andrew]

I was changing our LAA project registration details with the LAA just last week and they let slip that they are now cross referencing all permit applications with the CAA (G-INFO) database before issuing anything. If the project partners are different to the CAA owners it MAY prevent the issue of permit to test, permit to fly and other project completion red tape.

I wonder how they cope with organized syndicates where only a trustee is listed?

This may be a handy loophole.

[robin]

There will be the Trustee Grid lodged with the CAA listing all members....

[S-Works]

Quote:
LAA coaches are able to take valuable consideration which includes hard cash for their services as coaches without a CPL or Class 1 Medical. All LAA coaches are a minimum of CRI now and a minimum of 1500hrs.
Are those 1500hrs an entry requirement to become an LAA coach as a CRI?

Yes, 1500hrs and an Instructor Qualification, FI(R) or CRI(SPA) as a minimum.

LIGHT AIRCRAFT ASSOCIATION
PILOT COACHING SCHEME
Application Form – LAA Coach


Membership Number:

I wish to be considered as a Full LAA Coach to take part in the LAA Pilot Coaching Scheme. My personal details and flying qualifications are as follows:

Personal Details

Name: ............................................................ ............................................................ ...............................
Address: ............................................................ ............................................................ ............................
............................................................ ............................................................ ............................................
Tel/: ............................................................ ............................................................ ....................................

Mobile: ………………………………………………………………… DOB: …………………………………….

e-mail: ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..


Pilot Details

Pilot’s Licence Type and No: ............................................................ .........................................................

Pilot Qualifications - IR/IMC, Instructor etc: ............................................................ ....................................

............................................................ ............................................................ ..............................................

............................................................ ............................................................ ..............................................

............................................................ ............................................................ ..............................................

............................................................ ............................................................ ..............................................

............................................................ ............................................................ ..............................................

............................................................ ............................................................ ..............................................

Total Pilot Flying Hours: ............................................................ .................................................. Min 1,500

Total Pilot Flying Hours in Light Aircraft including Gliders and SLMGs, but not Hang Gliders or Microlights:

Light Aircraft: ............................................................ . Permit to Fly Aircraft: ..............................................

Gliders/SLMGs: ......................................................... Homebuilts: ............................................................ .

Total experience in last 12 months in above types: ............................................................ .. ... (min 30 hrs)

Home Airfield, if applicable: ............................................................ ............................................................




Signature ............................................................ .................................. Date ...........................................



Please return the completed application form to Penny Sharpe
Light Aircraft Association, Turweston Aerodrome, Nr Brackley, Northants, NN13 5YD