One of those Qs where the experienced will sigh!

[JP1]

A reply from the ATCO's would be appreciated.

Transisting under the Solent Zone and calling up for a FIS the reply was not standard RT. Just remain clear of CAS and will get back to you in 10 minutes.

Now obviously I realise the controller was busy and there was a lot of RT. Common sense told me not to reply and clutter the RT So I didn't.

Since I was told not to enter CAS and that is a mandatory readback, I would like to know what ATCO's would prefer to hear. Silence or confirmation not to enter CAS.

Thanks

[Chilli Monster]

If you hear the words "Standby" - say nothing, we're not expecting a response.

If the response was as you say however - "Remain outside .....(callsign)...." as a response is short but sweet.

[JP1]

Thanks CM.

No "standby"..

I will get the "remain clean.. and callsign" in next time, if that's what you like to hear.

Cheers
JP1

[BEXIL160]

"remain clean nothing wrong with personal hygene, but not sure ATC would be too interested :E:E

If you meant remain clear, then look again at what Chilli wrote, Remain outside

The word clear has specific meanings for ATC, please be careful.

Best rgds
BEX

[beatnik]

JP1 - I think you were unlucky with your timing.

I found the Solent ATC very friendly yesterday - flew a navex from Shoreham to Compton Abbas in a PA28. Outbound I requested FIS north of Goodwood, and was identified quickly. The quick talking Aussie ATCO only doubled checked if I was flying VFR or IFR before he gave me a squawk. At Petersfield, I requested to transit the zone and was asked to fly at 3,000ft and passed just north of Sierra Alpha Mike looking down at an arriving aircraft. That was pretty exciting. On exiting the CTA at Romsey, he said he'd passed my details onto Bournemouth, so all I had to do was announce myself and they confirmed they had my details and was given FIS until I changed to Compton Radio.

On the return leg I decided to fly under the CTA from Stoney Cross to Calshot via Beaulieu at 1,900ft. ATC was pretty busy, so on first contact he asked me to repeat my call sign and to standby. So I gave him my callsign and within 30 seconds he was back and I got FIS. And a good one it was too, he let me know each time an aircraft took off from Southhampton, and also alerted me to a Hampshire Police Islander (I think) flying some rather strange manouevres at 1,500ft.

It was my first foray into CAS, and I have to say, I was mightily impressed as to how easy it was.:ok:

[JP1]

Thanks for the replies.

I had meant to type "clear" but I am glad you have pointed out it should be "remain". Another mistake to mentally note not to repeat. (although I must admit my typo has been induced by a very nice Rioja)

Out of interest what is the special implication of the word clear? (or did you mean cleared) I have just tried to find it in 413 but can't.

Beanik, Bournmouth were very friendly, just very busy!

[Keygrip]

I was told not to enter CAS and that is a mandatory readback
It is?

I looked again at CAP413 (as your location is listed as "UK" and you speak of Solent) - readback items;

Taxi Instructions (not one of them)
Level Instructions (not one of them either)
Heading Instructions (nope)
Speed Instructions (nope)
Airways or Route Clearances (not quite - but closer)
Approach Clearances (nah)
Runway In Use (nope)
Runway Actions (as it used to be phrased - but "nope)
Transponder Operations (nowhere near)
Altimeter Settings (nope)
V.D.F. Information (nope)
Types of Radar Service (almost, just a few minutes later - but nah)
Transition Altitudes (nope)
Frequency Changes (also nope).

Now, had you been given a "positive" clearance to *DO* something then I could see it coming under item five in that list - but getting a "negative" to *NOT* do something.....which bit does that come under?

Why not "Wilco" (I will comply with your instruction not to enter the airspace - but as it's not on the readback list I won't waste your time with blocking the frequency)?

"Wilco (callsign)" Shorter, sweeter and in compliance with the manual?

[Final 3 Greens]

Keygrip, I realise that you are trying to be helpful, but unfortunately you have muddied the waters with your comments aboiut CAP413.

Chilli Monster gave the answer in post #2 and if you are interested why, the reference from CAP413 follows......

CAP413

Chapter 7

The following examples of phraseology are suitable for use at area control centres according to the requirements of the prevailing traffic situation....

1.3.2 Because of the prevailing traffic situation, a joining clearance may not be issued immediately.

"G-RDVC remain outside controlled airspace expect joining clearance at time 55 time is 44"

"Remaining outside controlled airspace, G-RDVC"

[BEagle]

Isn't the Solent CTA Class D? If you were under VFR, to be told to 'remain clear' isn't acceptable. You should submit one of those reports AOPA ask people to submit when VFR entry into Class D airspace is refused or delayed.

However, since you were underneath the lower limit of the CTA (it's impossible to be underneath a CTR!), it didn't matter in this case.

The CAP413 example isn't appropriate in this instance - it sounds like an airways join or other IFR procedure to me.

[Chilli Monster]

Isn't the Solent CTA Class D? If you were under VFR, to be told to 'remain clear' isn't acceptable. You should submit one of those reports AOPA ask people to submit when VFR entry into Class D airspace is refused or delayed.

I take your point, also your comment about it being unnnecessary as the original poster was underneath and possibly not looking for a transit.

BUT - just to put a bit of background in.

A lot of UK PPL's have trained in the states, where access to class 'D' is available once you have established 2 way comms, no positive clearance is required. Now, rather than get burned by the odd PPL who thinks in these terms then it has become common practice by some ATCO's (not all I may say) to use this as an initial response to everyone if R/T loading doesn't allow you to get a full exchange of information between yourself and the pilot.

Now - if I use this as a response to somebody 20 miles away because I have a higher priority task to deal with (my inbounds for example), and I get back to them 10 miles before they hit CAS, have I delayed them or restricted their entry unduly - no, of course not. So - no need for the confrontational comments about report submitting.

If they call me 2 miles away from the zone boundary and they get told that - well it's the stupid b*gg*rs fault for not calling earlier and I would state that in any response to any report filed.

Big picture people - big picture.

[robin]

Good point Beagle, but perhaps our ATCO friends could confirm whether or not such an instance would be logged for the AOPA stats

In my view, they have not refused access to the Class D. What they are asking is for you to wait until they get back to you when they may or may not give access.

Of course, they may never get back to you, as happens to me often around the Solent area, so it becomes a de facto denial of service without ever having issued the refusal.

[englishal]

I wouldn't bother with a FIS below Solent. I'd only bother with a RIS if I needed one or a transit (which incidentally both Bournemouth and Solent have never refused).......

With reference to the question, I'd just give them a "Wilco"..

[DFC]

Isn't the Solent CTA Class D? If you were under VFR, to be told to 'remain clear' isn't acceptable. You should submit one of those reports AOPA ask people to submit when VFR entry into Class D airspace is refused or delayed.



The purpose of the AOPA scheme is to highlight units who refuse VFR entry into or across Class D airspace when requested in accordance with the appropriate procedures.

The reporting permits the event to be checked to confirm if the refusal was appropriate.

Finding one has a delay in obtaining a clearance is not a matter to be reported under the scheme especially when less than 10 minutes notice is provided.

When are UK aerodromes going to adopt the system in use elsewhere in Europe and even in the US of having published VFR routes that permit integration of traffic and reduce controller workload.

Regards,

DFC

[IO540]

In the European context, it is common enough to call up an ATC unit (handling some bit of controlled airspace) for a transit, and have them tell you to simply p*** off, using various forms of language.

In the UK they do it politely but elsewhere they may be more abrupt.

And unless you have arranged for them to provide you a service, there will be no further communication. You are on your own.

That's why when flying VFR one must always have Plan B which is wholly outside CAS. If you are refused transit, you don't have to waste any time - just execute Plan B and duck under the CAS, do a dogleg, etc.

Obviously a decent large screen moving-map GPS makes easy work of that sort of thing.

This is why a lot of pilots get an IR - under proper airways IFR you get an implicit whole-route clearance.

[JP1]

CM

Post #10. Once again thanks. That is the exact answer I was looking for:- From a girl (or guy) who sits at the other end doing the job and giving me the bigger picture.

Obviously there are really only 2 points (in the widest sense) to remember when flying.

1) Don't Crash
2) Don't Bust Airspace.

If I need to be reminded about point 2 every time I make contact with ATC then I should not really be allowed to fly.

So I appreciate now why the controller didn't...

1) Ignore me
2) State "Standby"

But elected to reminded me to remain outside with non RT phrases. For which you would like a confirmation in case I'm American:)

Thanks
JP1