Which type rating to choose?

[dontpressthat]

Evening all...

Ok, some advice needed. I'm seriously considering self funding a TR and would simply like views on the best choice of A/C, 737, 757, 767, A320 etc.

I dont want a lecture on the moralities of SSTR's or any of that stuff just an honest opinion of which type would be of greatrest benefit.

Also with only 300 hrs is it a TR which might clinch the first job or are more hours preferable.

Im sure this subject has been done to death but couldnt find much with a search so any up to date info would be greatly appreciated, as would any recomendations of training providers in the uk.



DPT

[Dihaz]

hey DPT,

I would say a 73NG would be best bet or 320 as they currently have most jobs on offer. Should be hot property with one of the two.

dihaz

[londonmet]

Dihaz,

Yes but only with hours on type. Not included in most SSTR schemes.

L Met.

dontpressthat,

A320.

Have you thought about become a FI? One way to build hours up and also cover the cost of repaying the loans that I assume you took out to pay for your training.

I know you didn't want a lecture on the moralities of it. So I won't tell you what a plonker you are..

L Met.

[londonmet]

djfingerscrossed,

Yes very good point made. There are numerous companies out there offering sim assessments that follow the RYR assessment profiles. Just google Flight deck technology or virtual aviation.

Eitherway best of luck, what ever you choose to do.

L Met.

[dontpressthat]

L'met,

A plonker eh...? even though you have no idea of my situation.. well as you didnt ask...

33 yrs old, 300hrs £60k debt and I need to start earning enough to knock a hole in it ASAP.

The way I see it, FI course £7K and upto 3mths, then look for a job instructing and earn approx £10-£15k p/a then after a year or two instructing and struggling to live, if Im lucky I may have enough hours to make myself appealing, by which time Ive had to pay more c/card interest, struggle with the rent and bills etc etc.

Alternatively, cough up £18k and hopefully get myself on the ladder earning a good wedge to pay bills/debts (albeit larger) etc hopefully a lot sooner.

It seems to me that most Airlines either bond you or reduce your salary for a period if they fund TR so whats the difference in paying for it yourself upfront?

So there you are...!!! thats the reason I asked, If I am going to go ahead with it I thought I'd atleast give myself the best shot by doing an in demand TR.

So L'met if you know of an airline thats offering TR's for free or Instructors jobs that pay £30k and guarantee 500hrs p/a please point me in the right direction.

DPT

[Adios]

I know two people who did an SSTR. One took two years before he got a job and had to pay to keep not only his ME and IR current, but his TR as well. The other bought an Airbus TR and eventually got a job on TPs and had to buy a second TR. You asked not to be lectured, so I won't, but you didn't ask not to be told whether anyone knows someone it has or hasn't worked for.

If you go to a Ryanair Open Day and submit your CV, you have a very high chance of getting interviewed and assessed. They'll make you pay for the assessment and the TR if they hire you, but at least you are unlikely to end up like my two acquaintances, throwing good money after bad.

[dontpressthat]

DJ,

Unfortunately, I didnt pass the RYR assessment a couple of weeeks ago and as far as CTC goes, I understand they require A-levels or equivalent for entry and thats not a trick I have in my bag.:sad:

DPT

[dontpressthat]

Cheers ADIOS, good info there.. :ok:

DPT

[BitMoreRightRudder]

It seems to me that most Airlines either bond you or reduce your salary for a period if they fund TR so whats the difference in paying for it yourself upfront?



The difference is that paying for a TR on your own could leave you with even more debt and still no guarantee of a job. Yes an airline will most likely bond you or pay you a lesser salary to recoup the cost but at least you are doing a TR with a job waiting for you at the end. It's a high risk strategy to pay for a TR without an airline behind you. It might pay off, but then again........

Personally I think you're nuts, and many other people will agree with me, but I'm sure you don't care what I think!

Good luck, hope it works out for you:ok:

[dontpressthat]

Cheers RightRudder... all valuble input, just cant seem to see a way forward at the moment.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

DPT

[Adios]

Did Ryanair invite you to try again? If so, I would suggest doing a JOC in a 737 sim immediately before the retake. I think both CTC and OAA offer them and they won't have any pre-requisites other than an fATPL and a couple of grand. Given the number of OAA grads going to RYR, that might be a good place to prepare via a JOC if RYR invited you to try again.

[MIKECR]

Fuel costs are rising, recession is upon is, airlines have been consolodating. Buying a TR with no job offer is seriously dangerous. You only ned to look at Flighglobal, Rishworth etc etc...all the 73 and A320 jobs require TR AND 500/1000, even more hours on type. Theyre not interested in people with just a TR. Its useless without experience. If you feel you must stoop to buying a TR then probably better to do TP rating...an ATR perhaps.

There are still jobs out there however, you just have to be very realistic and very persistant in the way you aprroach them.

[dontpressthat]

Adios, RYR havent offered but the JOC then another stab at it sounds like a good option.:ok:

DJ, Thanks mate.. will keep plugging away for now I think and slap myself briskly round the chops the next time I consider lashing out on a TR.

DPT

[preduk]

DPT,

I don't know what your personal circumstances are at the moment, but could you not get a part time job with a "normal" company and then do the FI part time also. It would keep you current and help you pay off some of the debt.

[Mungo Man]

The way I see it, FI course £7K and upto 3mths, then look for a job instructing and earn approx £10-£15k p/a then after a year or two instructing and struggling to live, if Im lucky I may have enough hours to make myself appealing, by which time Ive had to pay more c/card interest, struggle with the rent and bills etc etc.


I'm sure you could get an FI ticket for £6k, and you could definitely get it done in 4 to 5 weeks plus, if you are keen, you could have a job lined up and start instructing 2 days after passing your FI test (allowing one day to pop into Gatwick for licence issue).

There is almost no way you will be instructing for over a year in the current climate. When I left my FI job in Dec 06 a friend took my place, he stayed 3 months before moving to a turboprop, and a further 2 instructors have filled the position since!

Trouble is people just don't realise how good instructing is for your career until they do it. You also get much, much better at handling.

[inner]

If and only if you are 101% sure you want to buy a typerating, and after considering you might end without a job, having a debt and doing a possible recheck in 1 year, i would say take the 757/767. I think there are too many sstr 737/a320 riders.

But make sure you can do line training at least. I'm now doing a linetraining and i can assure you it is bloody difficult. Companies don't want people without experience.

Anyway, good luck!!

[portsharbourflyer]

Instructing worked for me.

But if you must go down the SSTR route then the ATR42/72 type rating with Skyblue is probably your best bet. I have known/met 7 people whom have done the ATR 42 rating at Skyblue and all seven got employed. Most people are put of by the fact it is a turbo prop rating that is only 3000-4000 pounds cheaper than a 737 rating. None of the ATR operators in this country have their own training facilities so most will accept the rating with no time on type. Because it is a tp then as people move from ATR jobs to jet jobs then vacancies arise. Furthermore at the moment Skyblue are offering paid line training placements at the moment (ie: you get paid or at least get all your expenses covered during the line training rather than you paying for the line training).

[Dihaz]

inner, how much does it cost for line training?

[inner]

I don't know because i did not pay for the type. But keep in mind that you need line training because it not easy.

Im not sure but i think astraeus provides line training.

good luck

[MAUMAU]

Hello DPT

First and foremost, I like the fact that you are looking at your situation from all possible angles in order to obtain your ultimate goal.

This in itself is a very good indication that one day you will be a fine Airline Pilot who has the ability to think and evaluate a problem.

Personally, I think with your 300 hours, you would be making yourself more marketable if you were a Flight Instructor for a little while until a better opportunity opens up. (and it will)

At that point, you will have many more hours and this experience will certainly be recognized by any potential employer.

While the Self Funded Type Ratings can be a benefit to a high time (heavy jet time) Captain looking for a DEC (direct entry captain) position at a carrier, I do not think it would help you at this time.

Please try to keep a positive attitude and I wish you the best of luck!

[flysi]

I paid for an A320 TR just over eighteen months ago having become dis-illusioned at the lack of airline interviews coming my way. Prior to making this decision, I'd spent eighteen months as an instructor, then a year as an air taxi pilot. I'd always shied away from paying for my own TR, yet in the end took the plunge as I saw it as the last throw of the dice to keep myself in the industry (I was 38 years old when I did the SSTR).

I would always recommend instructing as a way to build hours and experience. Once you have 700 hours, air taxi work will be open to you, and even more beneficial from an experience point of view.

I can empathise with your position but, in the present economic climate, I'd advise you NOT to do an SSTR. It's always a risky venture, but I'd say just too risky at this time.

I was fortunate, and landed an airline job almost immediately after completing the TR. Many others followed me at the same training institution, and have yet to get a job.

Whatever you do, don't give up. Keep yourself current. Everyone I worked with, as instructor or air taxi, has got there in the end. You will too.

Best of luck.

Flysi.

[Deano777]

dontpressthat

If you are to buy your own rating then all I can say is only do it if you can afford for it to go horribly wrong, I can put you in touch with 5 people who I know personally who it has gone wrong for, and gone wrong in a bad way, it won't buy you a job, but you already know this.
Just ask yourself whether you can afford to lose the money invested, if you can then go for your life, if not then please reconsider, only you can answer that.

Back to the rating, if it was I doing a rating, I would do a 320 rating, why? only a few minor reasons, a) personal choice, b) lots of operators in the UK and c) I wouldn't work for Ryanair if they were the last airline on this planet, so that rules out a 737NG rating ;)

Good luck in whatever you decide :ok:

D777

[G-SPOTs Lost]

A plonker eh...? even though you have no idea of my situation.. well as you didnt ask...

33 yrs old, 300hrs £60k debt and I need to start earning enough to knock a hole in it ASAP.



Oh the Irony :ugh:

So after assessing your situation Im sorry but your still a plonker, Its like buying a ferrari and not being able to afford to put fuel in it.

This job has slowed down in the last 12 weeks, cancelled orders, manufacturers offering to bring forward deliveries. Suggest you at least get booked onto a FI course because in three months when hiring almost stops altogether an FI course will be hot property, I also predict that there will no instructors jobs available in Quarter 3 2008.

This is the second time I've seen this downturn happen, two guys who I know who forewent the IR and did CPL/FI got conditional job offers and are in Jerez doing the IR/Multi with employers waiting.

So do you want to fly for a living or fly a 737 for a living, Im afraid saying "both" just doesnt work - you need to choose.

[dontpressthat]

Thanks for the positives boys and girls... all helpful stuff and certainly makes things clearer.

G-Spots, Your asessment skills clearly arnt up to much then are they..??

I said previously that it is not practical for ME to complete an FI at £7k (upto 2 months out of my current non flying job £3k) and then afford to live on peanuts for an indeterminable period.

However, Like I said, if I thought a TR would get me on the ladder in double quick time and earning a reasonable wedge I could arrange a short term loan... let me explain.
I estimate the cost of an FI and upto 2 months out of my current non flying job to be approx £10k, then I estimate a monthly income instructing of approx £1000.
After my rent/bills etc Id be left with about 20% of f'all.
A jet job with RYR for example appears to be worth in the region of £3k p/m after 500hrs therefore allowing me to repay a TR loan at around £1500 p/m.

So thats my life story and yes my back is up and yes that did make me bite.. this thread was a search for advice not a slating.

I suggest you keep your "oh the irony" remaks to yourself next time!!

DPT

[MartinCh]

dontpressthat,

let us know in one year's time how much more you owe.
Yes, you asked straightforward question.
But you are bluntly refusing to heed any advice from folks who know more (and not just who think who know more as there are too many of those).

btw, I'm towards rotary and will do planks as a side career, starting this year.
I'll do RW and FW PPL this and next year, fundraise longer, sweat blood working too much in too crappy jobs, count years until proper aviation career.
I'll get some dosh besides saving, but I'm not fortunate to have house to remortgage or put as security against huge loan. Maybe 10-20k when I build my credit history.. I'm way too itchy to fly and fly, get CPL etc, but I can't just blow everything on minimum TT for CPL, not having rotary FI or hours gained in the US on J1. I'd be plain crazy.

I'm familiar to similar issue of bloody expensive JAA rotary IR versus instructing up to 1000 TT and then applying for offshore job.
Yes, there were few guys over past year or two that 'fit the bill' and got hired with 250-300 rotary TT and JAA IR(H). Some and not too few, did the leap and whacked their face on the tarmac.

If there's some SOPs, minimum hour requirements, TR with no hours on type (ie to fulfill time requirements etc) could be way too pointless.

as I see it from outside the world of wannabe jet jockeys (taking out HUGE loans chasing the dream -flying-big bucks-cool image-whatever) but still in aviation with all the hurdles to jump over next years, well...

I won't slag anyone for damaging industry by SSTR.

You refuse "almost sure way" of turboprop TR as guys mentioned. yeah, they don't pay as much as heavy body FO salary. I bet they still pay more than instructing job. ME TP hours are much more valuable than PA28/C172 for interviews later on.

You can't afford to owe so much and earning too little as instructor, yet happy to slam extra £££ onto loan without guarantee of job. Any aviation job.

Can you afford to burn another wad of money for FI rating after jet TR?

What's wrong with part time FI and one full time job during week? Would pay the bills, gain hours, more networking and CV throwing time etc.

With what ideas did you start your training and what contingency plans did you make to keep afloat without striking jet FO job by miracle?

Most of all, you were refused by RYR once already. I don't see into it, but how many reapplying folks happen to be successful? Do you think JOC would do the trick if there was something about you they didn't fancy?
Do you just dismiss it by thinking there were too many better applicants at that time??

Regarding sponsorship schemes and A levels as minimum. Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but looks to me you got only NVQ or GCSE. No Uni, no A level.
I don't think you'd have problems with Maths or Physics A level after all the theory for ATPL, but you also don't have time to get it.

So to put it very succintly, in order to get from financial s:mad:, there's a way - getting even deeper not listening to all well meant advice I've seen.

Those well meant posts are called reality check - are you familiar with the term?

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Sorry

For everybody who said give the guy a break then why bother coming on here seeking opinion and then moan when it doesnt suit.

I'm far from saying dont pay for your TR, its just that you've missed the boat and you are digging a deeper hole

You bet on black and it came up red (With 60k)

I said previously that it is not practical for ME to complete an FI at £7k (upto 2 months out of my current non flying job £3k) and then afford to live on peanuts for an indeterminable period.


Yuo have probably taken 12 months off your current non flying job at a cost of 60K to earn ..............Nothing.

You could pay 7k and be earning something

or be in a non flying job for an "indeterminable period"

Your training plan was flawed, no doubt you wanted to go straight to Big Jet from day 1 which is why you chose the qualifications you did i.e. fATPL

If you had chosen CPL/FI you would now be working with much less debt, if you had chosen CPL/FI and FAA CPL/IR which probably would have cost you half of what you spent. With the ability to be working on one of the 200 bizjets on the N & M register and you would be flying 6 days a week.

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm having a go, its just like you use phrases like "peanuts" AND "I said previously that it is not practical for ME "

I find that irritating, because there are others out there earning peanuts who are living hand to mouth fighting off banks who arguably deserve a break more than you do. Why should you leapfrog into the very few remaining jet jobs over these people. The fact that you only will consider a jet job over other forms of flying to me shows a severe lack of commitment to aviation.

Any "Jet Job" employer will spot it from 100 yards.

Sorry

[G SXTY]

G-SPOTs Lost got there before I could. One of the risks of an SSTR is that it very clearly nails your colours to the mast. A candidate with a 737 or A320 rating on their licence will have a hard time convincing a turboprop interviewer that they've always dreamed of flying an ATR or Dash 8. The obvious conclusion is that you'll be off as soon as a jet job comes along, and while it's true that all TP operators bleed FOs to jet airlines, they still look for candidates who are most likely to stay.

In other words, an SSTR may well reduce the number of employers who would consider you. It's a massive gamble and I'd agree with the previous advice - only spend the money if you can afford to lose it.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

DPT If you want a jet job and are willing to pay for a type rating suggest you speak to Flightsafety's June Spencer and deal her up for a Citation C525 course. It gives you the CJ, CJ1, CJ2, CJ3 and there are a number of outfits using these such as EBJ, Airlink Scotland, Centreline as well as a number of other private operators, you could freelance and work for them all if you wanted.

With the present shortage of experienced guyts you could well be looking at a comand at 1500hrs and 1000 jet

You will get job with these as long as you dont have two heads.

$ is weak, £9k will get you a JAA/FAA course in the US - No Vat including flights and accomodation - course is 2 weeks (Short enough?)

[Tony Hirst]

DPT,

Rather than a pure speculative SSTR and guessing which type with incomplete and probably invalid information, the other options are CTC and possibly CAE.

CTC (http://www.ctcwings.co.uk) do not require A Levels for the ATP stream, but unfortunately it is closed at the moment, all that can be done is to monitor and wait. But this is probably the best way forward for a qualified CPL/MEIR.

CAE (http://www.cae.com) do an assessment which then opens up the possibility of airlines like Wizzair, Denim Air, Tyrolean, et al. Once accepted onto a TR you get a letter of intent (no guarantees) that if you pass you will be taken on (timing may be an issue too).

[Captain Oveur]

As a flight instructor I have to agree with some points in both camps and argue with others. I'm past 1000hrs now and feel like i'm stagnating. My pay is the same and my duties and responsabilities have increased. I'm tired and am trying to move on. I've looked at SSTR and discounted it simply because I feel that this is a denegration of our livelyhood. Time may come when I have to take that step.

I however see a number of people coming into this industry after having a rosy picture painted by some of the larger schools and the recruitment is now based on how much you can pay. When I suggest that they could instruct I get a look of disgust. True I never thought I would instruct but it has been the best 18 months of my life ( 2 years since I qualified) and I wouldn't change it for anything. I feel that those who have paid to get to the top of the tree have missed out, I guess in a way I pity them for not having the experience of sending a first solo or a student completing his PPL from a trial lesson.

So i'm now applying for all and sundry to get on the next step. It'll happen if you just have patience. Meanwhile i'm a professional pilot doing a professional job at my FTO regardless of my career aspirations.
Rant oveur :cool:

[tom775257]

Just a minor point about becoming an FI and improving your handling skills. Well, yes, it made me very good at flying PA-28s but compared to a fresh fATPL straight out of a jet MCC/JOC I was crap in comparison when it came to flying a jet sim.

I think you are probably at your best straight out of the IR, very little about jet flying is actually the handling.

[GASH !]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. Why don't you go for one type rating from Boeing and one from Airbus? Give yourself a chance man, you've come this far. Surely anyone willing to pay £25000 for a type rating could stretch to £50000 to improve their job chances?

Always lots of instructor bashing on pprune. I've never understood it really. As an FI I now earn around £40k a year, Monday to Friday 9-5. (The FI rating paid for itself within 3 months of starting work). I quite fancy flying something bigger than a light twin but can't find anything that pays anything remotely like it.

Airlines anyone, is it possible to make a living? :ok:

[tom775257]

GASH !

<<As an FI I now earn around £40k a year....but can't find anything that pays anything remotely like it.....Airlines anyone, is it possible to make a living?>>

While the 9-5 job is something I would love, certainly airlines pay a lot better. I just started with a new operator, out of the box as a new year 1 FO seniority wise will be 52k gross (with flight pay). With that there is also medical, pension, loss of licence etc. Yes, it is very possible to make a living as an airline pilot. Yes, I used to be an FI working 6 day weeks... it sucked!

[737 CL]

I'm type rated on 737 Classics, Do i have any chance to get a job in airline with 737 Ng? Such Ryanair ? Is it a good tyoe rating?

[mikehammer]

I find that irritating, because there are others out there earning peanuts who are living hand to mouth fighting off banks who arguably deserve a break more than you do. Why should you leapfrog into the very few remaining jet jobs over these people. The fact that you only will consider a jet job over other forms of flying to me shows a severe lack of commitment to aviation.



I am one of those being leapfrogged, currently half way through doing it "the hard way", now flying a turbo prop (great job, rotten money but not bothered...for now), having done aerial photo work to build the experience levels. However, although I am tempted to jump on the bandwagon and slate the SSTR people, I cannot: if I am honest, I thought about it myself, and for much the same reason as DPT. I didn't go for it in the end, mainly due to being short of about 5 grand, but I still think you are wrong, he's not a plonker, he's just looking for a way out, a way forward, and I don't blame him one little bit.

Yes, G SPOT is right, DPT's gamble hasn't paid off, but he is not alone, not by a long, long way.

DPT there is an end to this, and your turn will come, hang in there, and good luck.

[pablo2973]

I have gone through the same situation like yours ,520 tt, so i thought the answer was the TR ,Wrong!!!
If you have the money ,try to get someone to give you a chance if you finally get it, a simm assesment upon completing woul be nice ,I personally go for a new model like 320 no 757 that is on its way out .
Good luck

[Norrington]

It can be a wise investment to pay for the training yourself rather than just sit and wait. I fully understand your situation, you are getting older and you cannot live with your mom while working as an FI earning “peanuts”.
But buying an A320 or B737 isn't the solution, the odds are low that you will find a job with just 300TT and no hours on type= bad investment (unless you are lucky). If you buy line training as well the investment increases but the chances of getting a job afterwards is much higher, and then it could be worth the money.
A good investment is the one that gives you a job, and believe me, there are a lot of pilots with just a B737/A320 unemployed.
I suggest you first try the self sponsor routes with a job in the end.
Or take a look at the smaller aircraft like previous mentioned the ATR.
Or B737/A320 with hours on type.

Remember, there are no guarantees.

Good luck.

[avrodamo]

I think the real issue with the SSTR is that it's had it's day. I did the FI route and then after having no joy at all, paid for the 737 TR and it all happened. I ended up with a job, and turning another down! The big issue here is that this was 2 years ago. It's become a victim of it's own success. In my course at GECAT of 8 students on the 737 and 320, all of us were placed or obtained jobs within 6 months. People saw it working, everyone jumped on the bandwagon and everyone saw it as the way in. Result being there was a huge amount of type rated people with no experience as more and more people paid for SSTR.
What do we have now? Well we have people now paying for line training to make them stand out from the crowd of SSTR people. It makes you think what next? Paying for enough line flying to enable your ATPL to become unfrozen??
I know the flying club i instructed with is desperately short of instructors. Instructing does lead to the openings you desire. In the past 24 months they have lost 5 instructors to jet operators, and 4 to turboprop operators, and 3 of them were in their late 30's.
Save your cash. Do the FI course, even if you can only instruct part time it will help your chances greatly

[jessie05]

Good confidence boosting posts Avro and flyer guy.

I have decided to go down the FI route after fatpl and first revalidation of IR as just cant afford the cost or the risk of doing a TR at my level of hours and then still not getting a job due to being an oldie!

I reckon that once i reach the magic 1000 TT then perhaps the bizjet market may become interested especially if i have proven captaincy whilst teaching others for the PPL initially.

In fact I have even been granted an interview before even starting the FIC with a european FTO that have brand new G1000 equipped aircraft!! Very positive and really looking forward to it.

I just pray that there is still a good market for instructors when i finish in June!!

jess. :ok:

[proxus]

I really don't know if this will add anything to the discussion.

I did the FI and have been instructing for two years now. However, instructing doesn't pay my bills so I'd to work elswhere and instruct part time. (note I'm not in the UK). Apart from getting a TR on a TP and flying for two months (I was only hired for the summer and then the Ops went belly up) and Chieftain part time, instructing has been my main flying career.

I was also on the same band wagon as most of you guys. NO SSTR, except maybe for those who'd worked hard in the industry and did every possible 'normal' way to make themself visible to employers, but haven't gotten anywhere and maybe where getting to old.

Now I'm thirty y.o. with around 850 hrs, 200 TP and 250 ME/IR. However, I'm not feeling any wind in my back. Suddenly, few days ago, I got a phonecall. I have been offered to pay for B757 TR and get 6 months of flying as a contract. This really is some money that I haven't got but I got a supportive parent that will back me up regarding getting collateral for a loan.

So basically, I'm not saying that you shouldn't think about buying TR but with only 300 hrs and no prospect of getting the line training without paying, I would seriously think this through. I'm really torn as to whether I should do this, even if though I'll have a strong possibility of clearing the line training and gaining maybe around 300-400 hrs on the type. ( Maybe some of you guys could advice me too :) )

If not, I'll have to start looking for a ****ty job to go with my (lovely and wonderful) FI for the summer.

[Mikehotel152]

Interesting discussion, if a little depressing observing the nastier side of human nature. Do some people not realise that there's a way of giving advice or encouragement to others without being aggressive? Do they remember any of the Human Performance syllabus? Can you imagine sharing a cockpit with these people!? :hmm:

The poor chap who started this thread is clearly aware of the overwhelmingly depressing arguments in favour and against buying a TR. Naturally he can't regulate the replies to his question, but there is no onus on anyone on this site to reply simply for the sake of attacking him and being plain rude. Unfortunately, Pprune is getting a bad reputation because of these people. IMHO if you feel so strongly against self funded TRs, start your own thread and rant to your heart's content. You won't be alone. There are plenty of people on Pprune who love to moan about their lot. :ugh:

On the flip side, there are some people who have answered the question and shown encouragement. This is where Pprune can be an invaluable resource!!! From what I've heard from people in the industry you might want to consider either 737 or A320, preferably the latter, but perhaps it's worth going for something a little more exotic. Some would point to a few 757 jobs lurking around. It requires a little investigative effort, reading Flight International etc and internet surfing to find out what's what. Good luck on the job hunt.

[HadEnough]

Having chatted recently to a fairly senior Pilot, directly involved with recruiting for a senior UK Charter airline he made some interesting observations.

Airlines obviously grab the best simulator slots on TR Courses and any remaining sim capacity is sold off to individuals wishing to purchase thier TRs.

These slots are often graveyard-shift times and he was not in any way convinced that (for example) 0300-0500 were the best hours to take on board the complexities of handling a modern airliner. He also wondered whether the calibre of instructor at this time of the morning was the best available to the sim.

In all he was very susupicious of people who had speculatively bought thier TRs especially when their log books had these late/early hours as take off times and would have treated such a candidate as an un-type rated pilot, requiring the full airline TR course.

Not sure how this effects all airlines but it certainly made me think twice about having a punt on a type rating.

[Tony Hirst]

These slots are often graveyard-shift times and he was not in any way convinced that (for example) 0300-0500 were the best hours to take on board the complexities of handling a modern airliner.
I'm in the middle of a type rating at the moment. We were informed that graveyard shifts are no longer deemed acceptable for conversions/type ratings by the CAA.

[Dreamshiner]

Can I just take a moment to echo Mike Hotels post, intelligence and objectivity are sadly lacking at times on here.

dontpressthat - you have no doubt observed by the 40 or so posts before mine this subject stirs quite a hurricane of "I know better than you....here's why".

Simplest way to look at this subject, draw up a table, one heading pro's other con's and start listing. Everyone's circumstances are different and you should apply your own financial and family commitments, career progression prospects and earning potential into the thought process.

A few things I would throw into the mix:

People on here tend to be polarised, take every story with a pinch of salt as I have seen first hand examples of Chinese whispers in the aviation community.
You by no means have to follow the FI route, its not for everyone and therefore should not be thought of as a mandatory step after attaining your CPL/IR. Some people think it should be as is the progression up through the aviation ranks, again, not for everyone.
From my experience I would not advocate a TR without a good chance of a job upon finishing, and how likely is the market going to be the same in 2/3 months in an industry that peaks and troughs daily.I'd like to inform Had Enough I had the majority of my sim slots at 7pm-11pm, for me this was perfect as I avoided traffic and not being a morning person I tended to be more focused. I actually considered it a bonus as I avoided coronation street and other crap telly. If you consider that graveyard then fine.

As for the chief pilot, he no doubt started flying in a very different environment compared to what exists now, gone are the days of airline sponsorships, paid type ratings for newbies and the generous benefits package. It would be interesting if he was zapped back 20 odd years to 250 hours/IR and replaced in 2008, see if his disdain and suspicion still fuelled his opinion.

We work in an industry that is aspirational, as a result there is great deal of competition and people who will go to a variety of different methods and means to facilitate this.

Only thing I would kind of agree with what the chief pilot said was that when finishing the TR you need some more training. You do the minimum amount of time by CAA dictate to allow you to get a tick in the box of most types of normal and non-normal procedures you will encounter in your chosen aircraft type. As a result the 60ish hours you do passed in the snap of finger and you know so little. Maybe insisting on a full new TR is extreme but certainly more time in the expensive sim to just feel comfortable would be prudent.

Also the instructors who work for SSTR companies also work with most of the major UK charter operators as well. The majority are either retired or still flying on the line. They are allowed to instruct on their days off in addition to their own instructional duties with their airline (if still employed).

[redsnail]

7-11pm isn't grave yard. Not by a long shot.

11-3 is a challenge as there's also about an hour after that with debriefing points etc. Trouble is, you're so tired you don't want to listen. Likewise the 3-7am slot. Yuck...

[EZYramper]

It'd be a good idea for you fATPL guys to keep checking the CTC ATP website literally every day. When they re-opened it in January of this year I believe it was open for about 4 days before that had had enough applications. No hints were given about it re-opening, one day it just did.


Good luck!

[Artie Fufkin]

In reply to proxus' question as to whether to take the B757 job, I'd say it sounds like a good possibility.

One thing I was told by many people in regard to aviation jobs was never to turn down anything. If you get the 757 rating you have six months of paid employment in front of you.

I spoke to someone recently who did roughly this and then took his rating abroad during the winter (central asia, and has returned with some colourful stories of flying in that part of the world). By going abroad he got enough hours to be considered an "experienced hand" on type (eligible for DEP entry to an airine) and now has a permanent contract here at home.

I heard something recently that really struck a chord with me. Here in the UK we had such a lousy summer last year that it is quite likely that many people will have already committed emotionally to a foreign, sunny holiday this year. Despite the credit crunch they'll go on holiday. But what about next year? My opinion would be to take the chance offered, who knows how long these chances will be around for.

A difficult, risky choice though.

[mech500]

I'm just curious ...
I've never heard of a low hours guy paying for a 777 or a 747 rating?

Is there a specific reason?

Cheers

[S44]

Mech 500,

The main reason that a 777/747 rating won't be any use to a low hours pilot is that almost all long haul operations carry one captain and two first officers, the second FO being the relief pilot... when the captain is on his break, the relief FO sits in the LHS... technically as PIC and therefore needing an unfrozen ATPL i.e at least 1500 Hrs TT

[Superpilot]

Some years ago, a relative of mine gained his first commercial job on the 747 as a cruise relief pilot. Yes, he's first TR was a 747 one.

[Brian Fantana]

Dontpressthat - Just interested, 9 months on, any news, which rating have you decided on?

[aerorrancio]

i know a pilot of mallorca (spain) that did his type rating to b-747 with 200 tt hours and now he is flying a-340. amazing but true...............:oh::*:sad::ok: