View Full Version : Take off brief review
Jinkster
27th Mar 2008, 11:46
hi all,
someone once mentioned the acronym PEDS for a takeoff brief review.
any ideas what it means
Performance - flap 5, bleeds on errm.....
Emergency - any emergency turn
D
S
thanks in advance!!
rubik101
27th Mar 2008, 12:07
Departure, Stop Altitude.
We have PPEDS
Pumps (Fuel)
Performance (Flap setting, plus any changes from long brief)
Emergency Turn (Review)
Departure (SID)
Stop Altitude (or FL)
Departure procedure (SID)
Standard calls.
And, if the non-flying pilot does not know the 'standard calls' by this time, he/she should read the book instead of heading for the bar on nightstops...:ugh:
Jinkster
28th Mar 2008, 11:28
thanks guys, my airline, we didnt have to do that - it was the captains job. New airline - we do!
Pilot Pete
28th Mar 2008, 12:39
Departure procedure (SID)
Standard calls. That's a completely pointless review then.
We (Pilot Flying) do a scan flow pattern covering the essentials, verifying the switch positions are correct and still valid for the actual take-off we are about to carry out and which we briefed before pushback.
Anti-ice
Packs/ Bleeds
Stop altitude/ SID
Thrust
Flaps
Stab trim
Engine out procedure
Specials
Works very well in my opinion. It has caught a couple of errors for me personally, across the fleet I am sure it has saved many embarrassing themselves.
PP
That's a completely pointless review then.
Not for pilots who know what they are doing, and can actually follow through with the proper actions.
Takeoff briefings that are overly long generally indicates substandard performance can be expected.
Pilot Pete
28th Mar 2008, 19:01
411A
You talk a lot of crap for someone with so much experience.Not for pilots who know what they are doing, and can actually follow through with the proper actions. I have NEVER met ANY pilot who is immune to mistakes. The whole point of a review is to ensure that what was briefed is still relevant, quite possibly half an hour or more after it was briefed. Takeoff briefings that are overly long generally indicates substandard performance can be expected. Just as arrogance and an ill founded over confidence in one's ability, coupled with an assumption that the bloke next to you is as equally brilliant is not conducive to modern two crew operations.
I apologise for making the mistake of assuming your Departure procedure (SID), Standard calls. was a review, but it actually appears to be your full briefing.:rolleyes:
You must be a hoot to fly with.:ugh:
PP
Oh gosh, Pete, don't have a fit.
I fly with Pilots/Flight Engineers who have been doing the same job for quite a long while, and know the drill quite well.
I repeat...overly long briefings indicate poor understanding of the other guys abilities, and often only bore them to tears.
In addition, these folks who actually do these overly long briefings many times do exactly the opposite when things go pear shaped...noticed it many times in the sim.
Perhaps you only flew with junior guys, and if so, you have my sympathy.
Pros don't need reminding, and reminding, and reminding...:yuk:
mustafagander
29th Mar 2008, 10:15
What I mumble to myself as we are about to line up:-
Beacons (strobes etc.)
Brakes (RTO set, park brake off)
Clearance (we are cleared onto the rwy)
Compass (rwy QDM check, set DG in lighty)
Cabin (report received)
Fuel (quantity, feed etc.)
Flaps (set)
Pilot Pete
29th Mar 2008, 11:45
411A
We are not talking about the briefing....we are talking about a review of what was briefed. It takes about 15 seconds and is there to ensure that everything set is still correct for the prevailing conditions before doing the Before Take off Checklist. I fly with Pilots/Flight Engineers who have been doing the same job for quite a long while, and know the drill quite well. We are not talking about SOP reminders and drills.:rolleyes: I repeat...overly long briefings indicate poor understanding of the other guys abilities, and often only bore them to tears. And I repeat, we are not talking about long briefings, or indeed ANY briefings, we are talking about a review, well after any long (or short) brief. In addition, these folks who actually do these overly long briefings many times do exactly the opposite when things go pear shaped...noticed it many times in the sim. Off topic, but just as those who do 'standard Heathrow then? Any questions?" often leave the other guy out of the loop (but expect him to mind read) and the departure is a shambles. Seen that in the sim many times. Pros don't need reminding, and reminding, and reminding... See, you've still missed the point. It has nothing to do with reminding, it is a REVIEW.:ugh:
I still fail to see why you think being experienced, or in your words a 'pro' means you are immune to making mistakes. I think you will find that history has proved that point to be untrue. Several times.
PP
I still fail to see why you think being experienced, or in your words a 'pro' means you are immune to making mistakes
I'm afraid you are out to lunch, Pete, nowhere did I state thus.
I suspect you have retired and now I can see why....:rolleyes:
What I mumble to myself as we are about to line up:-
Beacons (strobes etc.)
Brakes (RTO set, park brake off)
Clearance (we are cleared onto the rwy)
Compass (rwy QDM check, set DG in lighty)
Cabin (report received)
Fuel (quantity, feed etc.)
Flaps (set)
Similar at this end.
Configuration check...
Flaps/slats
Spoilers
Stab trim
Compasses
FD modes/Alt alert
From the old PanAmerican days, adopted long ago.
This is great!
I've never laughed so much at such a simple question.
Pilot Pete
1st Apr 2008, 12:04
Configuration check...
Flaps/slats
Spoilers
Stab trim
Compasses
FD modes/Alt alert Ahh, so you do a review then......:rolleyes:
PP
Ahh, so you do a review then......
Yes, but only a very short one.
Not some of the rather long-winded ones I have seen as a check pilot.:rolleyes:
As I told one Captain under training some years ago..."this isn't an Apollo moon mission, just a normal flight."
Pilot Pete
1st Apr 2008, 17:34
You're going round in circles having missed the point completely initially and now admitting you do a brief review. No one has suggested a looooong review here, and yours has changed from Departure procedure (SID) Standard calls. to Configuration check...
Flaps/slats
Spoilers
Stab trim
Compasses
FD modes/Alt alert
Out to lunch? Not quite sure how answering the question coherently qualifies for that, unlike some who post on here.
A review of crucial settings and performance just before take-off that takes literally 15 seconds is IMHO good airmanship. Including the other pilot by verbalising it is good CRM and keeps them in the loop and allows them to appropriately question when you make an unintentional mistake, which some of us accept that we are prone to. Setting a tone where they feel happy to question is also important, but is another thread all of its own.;)
PP
Sky Wave
1st Apr 2008, 22:17
411A
The PPEDS review is not overly long.
Pumps, No fuel in centre, centre pumps are off
Performance, Flaps 5 set, Bleeds are off, Anti Ice is off
Emergencies, Ahead to 1.2 miles and left turn to the NDB
Departure, ANY4D
Stopping at altitude 5000ft.
As Pete said it takes less than 15 seconds, it ensures that you're not about to launch off with bleeds on when you did performance for bleeds off, it reminds you of the emergency procedure, it's a check that you have the correct departure in the box and it reaffirms the stop altitude.
The PPEDS review is not overly long.
Pumps, No fuel in centre, centre pumps are off
Performance, Flaps 5 set, Bleeds are off, Anti Ice is off
Emergencies, Ahead to 1.2 miles and left turn to the NDB
Departure, ANY4D
Stopping at altitude 5000ft.
As Pete said it takes less than 15 seconds, it ensures that you're not about to launch off with bleeds on when you did performance for bleeds off, it reminds you of the emergency procedure, it's a check that you have the correct departure in the box and it reaffirms the stop altitude.
Seems reasonable.
Ours is equally short, although Pete didn't think much of it.
We have an advantage, however.
That third set of eyes/ears...aka, the professional Flight Engineer.
Don't leave home without one.:D
Sean Dillon
2nd Apr 2008, 00:00
Answer your question yet Jinkster????
Engine Anti Ice Off,
Packs On,
SAM 2M, 5000 ft in the MCP,
Assumed temp 43 degrees,
Flap 15,
Stab Trim 4.5,
No Emergency Turn,
Weather Radar on on my side, Terrain on your's?
low n' slow
2nd Apr 2008, 17:58
For the emergency part I allways breif that I intend to worksplit by taking the radio whilst the PNF is occupied with abnormal and emergency checklists.
Going through standard calls at least once a day I think is a good idea. It's not something you do every day and the 4 hour simsession every 6 months I feel isn't really enough to keep such knowledge fresh and useable. Ensuring that crew coordination gets off to a good start in case of any abnormalities is vital for the successful outcome of that event. By connecting callouts to actions, you have a strong weapon against slipping further down into the cone of stress and by having these callouts on the top of your mind, you're more likely do a god job of it.
The funniest briefing I ever heard was: "You fly the plane and the split second everything goes to :mad:, I'll take over and save the day"
/LnS
Pilot Pete
2nd Apr 2008, 21:36
Ours is equally short, although Pete didn't think much of it. Departure procedure (SID) Standard calls. Pointless waste of breath.:D
PP
Many moons ago when I was an FO two of the most memorable brief's are the following
#1
CP Do you know were we are going?
FO Yes
CP Do you know what departure we are using?
FO Yes
CPDo you know what to do if it goes pear shaped?
FO Yes
CPAny Questions?
FO Err No
CP Good, lets go
# 2
CP Do you want the long brief or the short brief?
FO Short brief please
CP We are going to CDG
....short pause
FO Out of interest what would the long brief be?
CP We are going to CDG R/W 27R
Pointless waste of breath.
Could be, but on the other hand, I have had no problems whatsoever, as I fly with folks that know what they are doing.:)
Pilot Pete
3rd Apr 2008, 10:22
:ugh::ugh::ugh: