**Pilot Shortage in the Middle East??** [Archive]

brassplate

27th Mar 2008, 12:29

yes, there will be a chronic shortage of pilots in the region. in fact, there already is by the looks of the workloads out there now, captains rostered with captains etc.
unfortunately, there is simply not enough local qualified pilots to take the positions. there will probably be inadequate supplies from the international pool as well of experienced pilots.
in the region, retaining pilots by raising basic salaryies is a knee jerk REACTION only after so many resign to go where packages and t & c's are better. this has been a futile exercise as ridiculous inflation and a weak US dollar continually wears down the 'send home' pay for most expats.
there is a LOT of poaching, especially by airlines who want their nationals back home ie omanair poaching gulfair.
there's emirates, etihad and qatar airways who buy planes faster than they are able to provide pilots for. planes are getting grounded by qatar and etihad because of inadequate crewing. emirates should follow soon.
gulfair has a 'bahrainisation' push which they can ill afford. it only serves to make gulfair an unattractive place for expats pilots to work.
probably the biggest factor apart from remuneration, is the lack of 'voice and muscle' by pilots locals and expats alike, in most of these airlines.

sarahamdan88

27th Mar 2008, 12:30

The consulting firm is AT Kearney. Their entire report is available on the link I provided.

Looking forward to your comments...

sispanys ria

27th Mar 2008, 13:36

I believe this kind of announcement is ok to boost investments in the numerous new flying schools, but at this time, it doesn't reflect the reality.

UAE airlines still have recruitment requirements much higher than many foreign majors, and it's for sure they still have an opportunity to raise many more applicants by slightly lowering these requirements.

Even the local business aviation market is not yet in the crisis, and it's still difficult to get a job without "sponsorship". What matters is that airlines' managers are doing their maths to forecast their recruitment needs. As long as their policy is consistent, they are not interested by such studies.

How could consultants be more aware of the demand/offer market than the concerned airlines ? As far as I know, no GCC operator declared to be concerned by this situation.

Lots of pilots will be available in the future, and I guess the real problem will be more focussed on training those pilots for their new airline specific operations, since this is limited by the airline capacity. Airlines should be more focussed on enlarging their training department, because this is gonna be the real limitation.

flareflyer

27th Mar 2008, 15:25

Apart from training departments it also depends from the quality of the pilots you recruit.
If you need experienced pilots to fly your fleet because you need them to be LR captains in a few years you also have to pay them.
Usually experienced pilots are with at least around 10 years flying that means aged around 35. Except play boys usually at 35 they have a wife ( or more :cool:) and at least 1 or 2 children. That means higher expenses to run the family.
If the package is similar to the one you have back home............. you know the answer.
I think that the biggest mistake of GCC airlines management is about considering their pilots like those from other majors.
If You are French and you fly for AirFrance you think about improving the package but not leaving your home country.
If you are French and you fly for emirates you must have the same package as in AirFrance plus a consistent extra to live far from your home country.
At the end we all are here for a better life. A better life is made by the package, the services, the workload and other things.
If you have the same or barely the same lifestyle you have back home why should you come in the middle of nowhere?????

Flare

A320PLT

27th Mar 2008, 16:08

Sara,

There are a number of experienced pilots throughout the world and many here in North America.

The carriers here in the western portion of the universe are suffereing as a result of extremely high oil prices as well as the weakening dollar. I fully expect a couple of carriers here in the US to either furlough pilots or cease operations all together. In my case a pilot with America West which got into what many now consider a bad merger with the former USAirways is now under assult due to continuing labor problems. I choose to look outside of my home country for a couple of reasons. One, I need to make at least what I am currently earning as a 5 yr pilot here and second I need stability.

I have applied to just two carriers in the ME region both of who appear to be growing at an alarming rate. I also feel that with the exception of Emirates many of the regions carriers are not prepared to handle the amount of growth that will be upon them in the next year. These other carriers will need to get their HR departments up to the task in rather short order or they will be faced with the reality of taking aircraft and watching them sit as a result of not enough crews.

In closing I see a huge opportunity for pilots in the region and expect that many of the carriers will slowly but surely get their departments up to the task.

A320PLT

Trader

27th Mar 2008, 16:43

Sorry Sispanys but that is incorrect. Emirates, Etihad, Gulf Air and Qatar are all losing pilots and currently short. GF and EK are the best off at the moment - meaning their shortages are not causing may problems, but the others are hurting.

Etihad has drastically changed their rostering practices to get their pilots to fly more (see complaints on this website) and Qatar has been notoriously short for a long time and have dropped their entry requirments.

Emirates had plans to hire almost 600 pilots this but reduced that to under 400 now because they cannot handle the hiring and training of that number. This means either grounding aircraft or flying them less efficiently OR, as most airlines in this region are doing, by pushing their pilots to work harder.

Sara, one problem is that PAY is not the only consideration. As I mentioned, airlines are pushing the boundries of what is considered safe when it comes to how hard they are pushing their pilots. Etihad has pilots flying to Europe, having 12 hours off and the flying back only to have 12 hours again before their next flight. Emirates has a 17 hour flight to Huston followed by 24 hours rest and then a 16 hour flight back. It does not take a genius to see how these types of patterns cause fatigue.

So pilots are leaving the region due to the poor pay AND the poor conditions.

The largest problem though Sara is the lack of EXPERIENCED pilots. You can reduce requirements to hire more pilots and as Sispansys the requirments here are higher then many major airlines elsewhere. The difference is that a major airline in the US or Europe will hire a pilot who can expect to be a first officer for more than 10 years. This allows time to train that pilot and give him/her the experience they need to operate as a captain.

With pilots at Emirates moving from first officer to captain in 3 years they cannot afford to hire inexperienced pilots. What consitutes 'experience' can vary by opinion but there is no doubt that world wide there is a shortage of experience especially in the position of captain.

It is this issue that will affect the Middle East and already is. Gulf Air's accident several years ago was a perfect example. A VERY inexperienced captain with an inexperienced first officer. There were company politics involved in that accident but the fact is the pilots were COMPLETELY at fault.

Gulf Air recovered from that and last year after a large exodus of pilots they increased their pay package to levels above those of Emirates and Etihad. They have realized the value of the experience they have and are atemptng to keep it.

The other Gulf airlines are expanding too rapidly to make a mistake in their hiring and pilot retention practices. As of right now they do not seem to be doing well in those areas. You only have to read through this forum to see the level of discontent. While I think many poster on this site have, in my opinion, extreme views on the pay and conditions here (at least in some cases) I think that the vast majority of pilots in the Middle East are concerned about the poor pay and, more significantly, the declining working conditions. The declining dollar and inflation are of great concern.

Many pilots are leaving because almost every airline on the planet is hiring!!!! Pilots can go where they please and, while they are sometimes somewhat restricted due to issues like seniority at the moment this is not an issue in many regions and companies. Even Air France and Austrian airline are hiring direct entry captains!!!!!!!

Sara, let me put it this way. If I was consulting or giving advice to the rulers in the Middle East I would say this. You have to design a pay package and design conditions that will kepp the pilots you have and attract the ones with the experience and skills you need. There is a LARGE focus now on the Middle East. The world knows about Dubai, UAE, Qatar etc and you see their ads every day on CNN, TV around the world and company and country ads across the globe. The world is watching.

The countries and the airlines CANNOT afford an accident!!!!! They certainly cannot afford an accident that is caused by (or percieved as caused by) inexperienced pilots, poor maintenance or any other 'cost cutting' or '3rd world' factors. I mean no disrespect when I say 3rd world, but the fact is in much of the world knowleadge of the Middle East is poor and it is viewed as an 'emerging' area. An accident would simply solidify that view.

The world is competing for pilots (and many other skills) and the companies inthe Middle East have to fight for that talent. If they want to grow as they plan they still need skilled foreign labour and they have to pay for that skill - firstly because everyone else is fighting for it and secondly because to attract people and get them to leave their home countires they have to make it attractive.

The airlines in the ME are currently not very attractive.

Wiley

27th Mar 2008, 17:11

I'm not the first to say it, but the Middle East airline that comes up with a realistic package allowing expat pilots to fly 'n' weeks on, 'n' weeks off - and spend their days off and fly a pattern that starts and ends in the home (non M.E.) port, that airline will magically solve much of its pilot shortage problem in one fell swoop.

(Hint to the HR department weenie of whatever M.E. airline who may be reading this. Make it your own idea. Take it in to head office and sell it and you'll be the hero who saved the day - and maybe a few aircraft not being parked against the airfield boundary 'for painting', which is the current excuse given to its owners for having aircraft on the ground at one particular M.E. airline.)

A320PLT

27th Mar 2008, 17:41

Wiley,

You are right but it takes a long time to get to a situation where you have enough pilots to make sweet schedules. I agree with you but also lets not forget the poor housing situation. I would go in a heartbeat but I have to be concerned about housing as I have a wife and young son in tow.

I am still waiting for a call back from Etihad where I finished the online application almost two months ago. Experienced? Well that's in the view of the company. In my case I have over 3000 hours in an aircraft (A320) that they operate. Now if their HR dept was properly staffed to handle the number of applicants they receive. Now I am just one example, just think of how many are in the same boat and just how many some of these carrier's with the exception again of Emirates.

A320PLT

brassplate

27th Mar 2008, 17:50

hear hear, TRADER. for once, i agree with you whole heartedly. the regional airlines however, will not take heed of such wisdom for many many cultural, and pride reasons.
when airlines like etihad think they can simply start and rapidly expand an airline because they have the money, it's a sure sign of stupidity and worse, when the human element had not been factored in...and that is what's happening.
just sit back and watch the houses of cards fall.

Desert Diner

27th Mar 2008, 17:58

UAE airlines still have recruitment requirements much higher than many foreign majors, and it's for sure they still have an opportunity to raise many more applicants by slightly lowering these requirements.

Those lower standards don't put you on the heavy metal such that EK operates. Senority or not, you will need alot more hours with a "major" before they let you fly their big birds.

ferris

27th Mar 2008, 18:20

Something else to consider, Sarah, is the infrastructure that needs to accompany aircraft orders. You can see the mess Dubai is in because they have suddenly realised all the infrastructure the city needs as an afterthought.

Buying the aircraft is the EASY bit. Planning the resources (both human and structural) that support the aircraft is another. It takes years to train pilots, build airports etc. etc. I speak from the air traffic control side of things, and I can tell you that a continued lack of planning of infrastructure will lead to MAJOR PROBLEMS- the least of which will be parked aeroplanes.

As an example, the German ATS provider is struggling with growth in air traffic movements of 8.6%. We are experiencing growth of in excess of 21%. You can argue that if you are near capacity, and grow by 8% then you have problems. But capacity is a product of the infrastructure. Picture the SZH in the sky.

airpilot_A3xx

27th Mar 2008, 18:26

Sara, Gulf Air used to be the Training camp for pilots & high level management for years. Now the entire region is, ITS NOT all about money, it’s how many 'E's you can fit in front of your title that reflects years of experience and about 10000$/E. i.e ''EEVPO, EEVHR, EEVIT, EEVPF&B......etc, For me EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECAPITAN/ $h!t :{

tarik123

27th Mar 2008, 18:34

Every airline in the region is short of pilots, all are looking for experience,
The ways to get experienced pilots and to keep them are simple:

-Stop treating us as legal / illegal when calculating duty time limitations
and understand that some people can not sleep during the day to compensate
for night flights.

- Understand that we have families that need us too, especially when we
uproot them and bring them to a totally different culture.

- Income must be increased as demand for experienced pilots is far greater
than supply.

- A work pattern like 35/31 or 4 weeks on 2 weeks off can also be quite
attractive.

Shortage will increase for the coming 15 years, so the faster airlines
act, the better their chances of keeping their pilots, and maybe attracting
some more experienced ones.

bluelearjetdriver

27th Mar 2008, 19:24

Hear are some cold hard facts for me not considering working in the ME. My situation is as follows:
- Experienced FO on Airbus (for their purposes)
- Current salary after tax is approx. £3200-00 per month (it also comes with the usual trimmings)

To be honest, the packages that they are offering, are not much better than what I am getting at the moment. For me to consider moving to the great-oil-filled-sandpit, I want a package that will make me wobbley at the knees..

A much simplified explanation, but I think covers the jist of it.

Wings Of Fury

27th Mar 2008, 20:24

bluelearjetdriver,

There are people in the Middle East who pay better than EK or EY, If that's who you were looking at. How does £5200 (10500USD) sound? Based on a 60 hour month, ie. that's minimum, you can earn allot more. :ok:
That's for a Airbus F/O.

A320PLT

27th Mar 2008, 20:24

Bluelearjetdriver

I agree with that statement as in USD I am earning $7800 before taxes and upgrade to captain is further away than I can see. This very sloppy merger and its related labor problems, oil prices and the list goes on and on.

A320PLT

A320PLT

27th Mar 2008, 20:27

Wings of Fury,

Which one?? You can PM me if you wish.

Thanks

A320PLT

bluelearjetdriver

27th Mar 2008, 20:51

Wings of Fury,

Now if THAT company would make me an offer I couldn't understand I WOULD consider moving, IF a housing allowance were included ON TOP of this salary.....I have a feeling that this number also includes a housing allowance, in which case it's not as good any more.

Apologies for the thread drift, but hey, if the middle eastern people movers want to know what would make me giggle, then £5200-00 ($10,400) p/m tax free PLUS a housing allowance would be it.

Nuff said. Listening to Pink Floyd always makes me a bit light headed....

Marooned

27th Mar 2008, 21:05

There is a pilot shortage looming everywhere, not just the ME.

Is it good news? Not yet. Poaching will increase and many experienced expats will see a window of opportunity to either work nearer home or earn more money. Experience levels of those joining, who have benefitted from the increased demand, has decreased from previous levels. Attrition rates will increase and when either an accident or aircraft get parked something may happen to address the many issues ignored for years by arrogant, complaisant managements.

It's not new. Airlines who have attempted to grow without adequate investment in their staff and infrastructure soon stall. In the long run it will cost them more to react eventually than to proact now.

Airlines are a global phenomena and airlines in the ME are not isolated and have to compete with other airlines for pilots. In fact the ME is a prime source of experienced crews on modern aircraft types for other airlines who themselves have big expansion plans.

There will be a marked difference in the expansion plans in the ME and the expansion realities.

Wings Of Fury

27th Mar 2008, 21:23

yes your right, includes housing, not bad if your single :E

Marooned, very true no one can predict the future, sure is great to discuss it. I didn't think I would be were I am 3 years ago, one thing for sure is it happened a hell of a lot quicker than it would have 10 years ago. does that make sense? :confused:

A320PLT

27th Mar 2008, 21:24

Pink Floyd, Darkside of the moon???

A320PLT

mkdar

27th Mar 2008, 21:32

yes
yes
yes
and no
does this answer your questions?:rolleyes:

Anonymus6

27th Mar 2008, 21:36

bluelearjetdriver

27th Mar 2008, 21:42

A320PLT,

Good guess, but it's Delicate Sound of Thunder....which contains my flight training theme tune......this also makes me giggle.

Good to see a *****ER with taste.

Back to the thread: Basic economics makes my request for that amount of Gorillas unviable as A) they actually want to make a heathy profit and B) there will ALWAYS be someone willing to work for the wages they are offering.

Good night all

A320PLT

27th Mar 2008, 22:06

Bluelearjetdriver,

Yeah I'm a Floyd person. Years ago I saw a Laser show with the music being Floyd Darkside of the moon. I know a few of the tunes.:D:D:D

The piper at the gates of dawn, Soundtrack from the film 'More', A saucerful of secrets, Ummagumma, The best of Pink Floyd,

Atom heart mother

Relics

Meddle

Obscured by clouds

Dark side of the moon

Purple simon moves the pink harum

Picnic, a breath of fresh air

Soundtrack from the film Zabriskie Point

Wish you were here

Animals

The Wall

A collection of great dance songs

The final cut

Pink Floyd works

A momentary Lapse of reason

Delicate Sound of Thunder

Shine on (dutch)

Shine on

The Division Bell

Pulse

Echoes

A320PLT

sispanys ria

27th Mar 2008, 22:35

There is no pilot shortage, Please don't start another thread saying we need pilots. The shortage is for Flight instructors and Training captains. Thats it.

Plenty of pilots out there, that is still looking for a job.

Finally someone who agrees.
There are a lot of experienced pilots looking for a job everywhere. And don't tell me EK really needs 4000 H / 2000 heavy jet FOs, while cadets are allowed to do the job !

You can find a lot of turboprop/light jets pilots with many thousands hours of multi-crew experience that would perfectly match with a FO position.
There is no worldwide shortage since many companies are still requiring type rated pilots. In case of shortage they wouldn't mind to pay for the ratings.
If there was such a shortage and that salaries and conditions were that bad in the UAE, I don't think people would still be interested to apply, especially with the high requirements that are in force.

It's been months that some of you are complaining, how come didn't you already get a better job in your homeland if there is such a general shortage ?

The problem is not to find guys who knows how to drive a plane, it is to train them to the specific companies' procedures since this is limited by the size of the companies' training departments. I fully agree with the need of instructors within companies. You don't need to hire astronauts to put a pilot in an airbus' right seat.

AA717driver

28th Mar 2008, 04:40

The problem is, everyone wants to operate "the finest airline in the sky" (whichever that one is...) on a shoestring budget.

I was set to apply at EK but the pay v. inflation stopped me cold--the bottom line IS the bottom line.

You want pilots who can occupy the LHS on the DXB-IAH flight after three years with the company? YOU'VE GOT TO PAY THE TOLL! (or 'troll' in my case. ;) ) TC

John Miller

28th Mar 2008, 06:23

I wonder who commissioned the report?

There is plenty of evidence - I've just had a good friend close his (small) flight school as he has just lost his last two instructors. Just spoken to an ACMI operator flying Beech 1900s and he was amazed at having a job offer turned down by a 230-hour pilot. There's a 200-cadet airline casting around at the moment trying to find a flight school with enough capacity - they have just been turned down by one large training organisation I know well.

Marooned

28th Mar 2008, 07:13

The shortage is already hitting the flight schools as instructors move on without being replaced by their students who are also getting offers. Meanwhile at the other end we are over two years into the 60-65 extension which will see many, many retirements within the next few years.

Supply is cut off from the bottom + attrition at the top = a big shortage.

Token cadet schemes which are too few and too late will not go near to supplying the demand. Those that have been implemented, Air France as an example, are finding that not all from the schemes are getting through final selection... hence the new recruitment surge.

The result is a massive pilot shortage.

Those who are there will work harder, longer hours. Experience levels are being reduced, fatigue increased and the ultimate loser will be safety...

tarik123

28th Mar 2008, 09:02

I guess who ever keep talking about their is enough pilots and their is
no pilot shortage is either management or they have no clue of what
is going on in the aviation world.

All airlines in Africa middle east, Gulf, India, China, Korea, Japan......
are very short of experienced pilots.

Yes airlines can have a proper training program for new cadets, but
to acquire experience, they need time, lots of time, and with the expansion
that all of these airlines are planning for, I think the only way is to buy experience, so the better the contract and work conditions, the better
the chances of acquiring experienced pilots.

Pilot shortage is real, and will not get better any time soon. Yes airlines
are still managing, but they are all bleeding their experienced pilots
and unless they improve their work conditions they will have to ground
airplanes, and cancel flights.

flareflyer

28th Mar 2008, 09:06

Dear sarah,

do you really think that in a mickey mouse country like UAE you will be allowed to write what reality is?????

Do you really think that they will let you write that emirates for examples makes:

pairing beyond any safety rules like the Huston;
or that we fly during the night to the subcontinent with pairing beyond the flight time limitations just because they use exemptions (that means they do whatever they want);
or pairing like the syd-chc or mel-auk where you feel like a ghost for 5 days;
or that they make you fly beyond the monthly legal limits only because they invented the rule that if you are not seated in the cockpit it does not count as flying time

So please Sarah, if you are just curious and the next time you have to fly you will fly KLM or AirFrance instead of Ek or EY ok, but don't say to us that you will write an article about what we discuss here unless you are willing to move to a different country .........

.Aero

28th Mar 2008, 09:25

What would happen to the credability of the report if someone could establish it was part-financed by the local flight training industry?

sispanys ria

28th Mar 2008, 10:19

I guess who ever keep talking about their is enough pilots and their is
no pilot shortage is either management or they have no clue of what
is going on in the aviation world.

I guess who ever keep talking about their is not enough pilots are not searching for jobs...

It's over 11 years I'm flying commercial multicrew helicopters and turboprops, and I can tell you it's not that easy to find job, either in the ME or even in Europe. Within the last two months I've sent about 100 CVs all over Europe and GCCs, and still didn't get any interview. It would probably be different if I had a A320 type rating (even with a little 500TT), which means the shortage is not on experienced pilots,but on cost saving ones.

Of course instructors are getting better jobs, and some school can hardly find the right people on time. It doesn't mean there's a shortage, it just means the market is unfreezing. The situation was so bad over the last 10 years that now some can start breathing. It's not a shortage, it's just an improvement. For years people couldn't afford to choose and they had to get the first position where they could be hired. Today it's different, and it's a good thing.

brassplate

28th Mar 2008, 10:22

LR 3,
they will do that in a heartbeat if you paid for your own taxes.

410

28th Mar 2008, 10:29

You watch the applications pile up on your desk if you introduce basings....and the resignation rate reduce.

They don't even need to be basings. Just let people bid for a block where the pairings are written such that they leave the flight at the nominated port and have their days off and another pilot picks up the pairing.

It's a real pity they're losing KP, (who, by the way, told me himself that he would have stayed if they'd let him do what I've just suggested above). He could probably write a program overnight to show them how easy it would be to organise, and maybe even how much money they'd save.

Anonymus6

29th Mar 2008, 04:33

I agree with sispanys ria!

you guys that talk about pilot shortage, and think there are no pilots out there has never applied for any jobs and don't know what you are talking about. My current contract goes out with my currrent company in 3 months and I have been applying for about 28-30 jobs out there. So far, I had two phone calls, one from Europe (jet alliance) and as soon as they found out that i dont have JAA they said good bye. The other phone interview was from a hawker position in India and they have been very slow with the hiring process, so I don't think I want to work for a company that not taking the interview serious. I even applied to the Qatar airways cadet program( I'm 26 years old). Unfortunatly, I didn't get in because I was over qualified. That's what the human resources told me, they where looking for pilots with around 500 tt, not pilots with more than 2000 tt and some turbin time. I have been thinking to take some time off and study the JAA through bristol and try the JAA land (I have EU citizenship).:ok:
I might have some luck there.
Please, don't take me as a negative person, but it is hard to find a job out there as a first officer. Plenty of jobs for pilots with time on type and captains, but not for me!!!!!

but I will keep trying, and good luck with all you guys that are trying as well!!! :ok:

Anonymus6

29th Mar 2008, 04:56

And one more thing,,,If you guys don't belive what I have been telleing you!!!!!!!! Please take a look at African forum and "willing to work in Africa thread" and you will see how many pilots out there that are willing to work for free!!!!!!!!! it is crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!

So pilot shortage = flight instructors and training captains:=:=:=:=:=:=:=

Good luck to all:ok:

uplock

29th Mar 2008, 05:51

BBC TV program Middle East Business Report are advertising that they will be doing a story next week on how the Pilot Shortage will affect Airlines in the region

Payscale

29th Mar 2008, 08:28

when is that BBC program on DXB time?

Obi Wan Kirk

29th Mar 2008, 09:34

There are a number of simple solutions to solving the pilot shortage in the Middle East:

I for one would love to move to the Midle East wth my family. I reckon it would be a great life experience. Obviously it depends where you move to in Middle East & the terms & conditions.

Now most of the carriers in ME have plenty of money, therfore they are in the position to pay pilots a lot more than what they are currently offering.

So first thing is increase salaries by 25% and offer some sort of offshore pension scheme and loyalty bonus for staying with the company.

Next offer a high quality accomodation, provided by the airline and pay for all utility bills. Also property seems to be a good business out in the ME so offer 100% mortgages to buy investment property. Most pilots like investing in property and this would be an attractive incentive.

Last but not least a STABLE ROSTER PATTERN. This can be achieved by long-haul operators too by creating a 6 0n/5 off roster.

If any of the big players like Emirates, Etihad, Qatar do te above I predict they will not have difficulty attracting high quality pilots.

Good Luck!

fourgolds

29th Mar 2008, 10:09

There is one way to ,manage the pilot shortage its called " flexibility"
and its not a word thats understood by draconian management that seems to dominate the region. Some want more money , some want basings , some want more time off at home base bla bla bla. The first company to offer basings will in my opinion have a huge jumpstart on the rest . I personally will be leaving the sandpit quite soon in search of a basing thats after 10 years with a company that has been batting this rumour around. There comes a time when you have to manage it yourself and not rely on what might happen. its amazing checking the job market as to just what is available .

sispanys ria

29th Mar 2008, 10:18

BBC TV program Middle East Business Report are advertising that they will be doing a story next week on how the Pilot Shortage will affect Airlines in the region

This might become pathetic. I guess it's perfect to boost the enthusiasm for the dozens of flight academies that will start operating DA 42 and eclipse in the ME (I just wonder how you can teach engine out with planes that won't even be able to climb with 2 engines in summer !).

15 years ago we had same rumors of shortage in Europe, and hundreds of young boys and girls borrowed money to pay for the training, and they finally found out that there was no job for them. Some remained applying for years before getting their first job. I think we are not helping anybody with such rumors of shortage. If people like me with over 11 years of commercial experience can't easily get a job, I wonder how young unexperienced ones would do. This shortage rumor may push people to take risks they don't foresee.

In case of real shortage, people with experience should be able to get any job they like, so why so many unhappy people are complaining in the ME forum when it would be so easy for them to et a better position ?

AA717driver

29th Mar 2008, 10:23

"...draconian management that seems to dominate the region."

You mean 'draconian management that seems to dominate THE BUSINESS'. :rolleyes:

Obi Wan--Good plan. The suits would never go for it. They'd rather wreck the airline by canceling flights due to crew shortage rather than pay top dollar and run a smooth operation.

How do you say "morons" in Arabic? TC

Marooned

29th Mar 2008, 10:36

Anon: 'Pilot Shortage' is a generic term, but what pilots are we in the ME short of?

Well with respect to those still looking for work, Airlines such as EK and alike are looking for pilots with a certain amount of experience. We all know that there are other pilots who do not currently have this experience but the bar is not just set by just the company but also by insurance companies and aircraft manufacturers and one would hope, common sense (not much of which is apparent in EK).

'The Pilot Shortage' is there. It may not currently be apparent to those seeking the first or second rungs but it is being felt now and will begin to bite hard over the coming years.

uplock

29th Mar 2008, 13:12

http://www.bbcworld.com/Pages/Images/Assets/d1747521-2e9d-4bc3-8dae-1f6c14bfb919.jpgQuote from BBC Reporter on this weeks Middle East Business Report
comments are invited to be sent to this email address [email protected]
Next week we will be looking at a looming crises with more flights being flown in the region over more routes throughout the whole middle east will there be enough pilots to fly the planes?
Middle East Business Report (http://live01.mh.bbc.co.uk/Pages/Programme.aspx?id=26) is a weekly half-hour programme covering business issues from the region.
SHOWING TIMES
Saturdays at 0530 GMT
Repeated: Saturdays at 1030, 1730 (South Asia & Middle East only) and 2230 GMT View Local viewing times here (http://live01.mh.bbc.co.uk/Pages/Schedules.aspx)

Trader

29th Mar 2008, 13:24

Sip and Anonmouse, the problem is that you expect a job on a jet. With turbine experience and the right to work there are millions of turbine jobs. Not that you could not step into a jet and fly it well - since anyone on a jet can tell you iot is easier than an advanced turboprop - but the applications from pilots with jet time is high. Those are the people you are competing against.

There is NO shortage of pilots with less than 3000 hours on turbo props- though even that is changing. The shortage is with experienced pilots with jet time and left seat jet time.

If you ant work in Europe then YES you need a JAA licence. Expecting any company to hire you without it makes no sense!!!

Finally, if I was charge of hiring at EK or any of the other airlines I would be targeting higher time turboprop captains. A guy in the left seat of, say a Dash 8, with 5000+ total and 2000+ command on it would be a gerat candidate. Flying in NA or Europe in the weather and ATC etc etc and he would have no difficulty transitioning to a jet. 3-5 years later he would have no difficulty with the command upgrade (already has subtantial command experience) and now with jet experience.

Wiley

29th Mar 2008, 13:39

I'd have to agree 100% in every respect with your last paragraph, Trader.

I give it 12 months tops and EK wil be following your advice.

loc22550

29th Mar 2008, 14:59

Trader..""Expecting any (european)company to hire you without it(jar licence) makes non sense...""
Not really convinced by your statement: if so how do you explain that Ryanair has recruited a lot of people from south America without JAR licence...?

kingoftheslipstream

29th Mar 2008, 15:32

Ms Hamdan88

Since 'Capt' Alan Stealey is quoted in the aforementioned article an' he's the boss, well now why'd ya wanna hear from a bunch of us old line drivers?

Don't tell me yer cynical about what ya' read in the press! It was printed - it must be true!

Ya started with a good question an' got yerself a bunch of bleatin' about terms 'n conditions of service over here in the sandbox - I dunno if that's really answering yer question is it? But if ya spent enough time readin' through this web/blog thingy ya'd find some interestin' stuff 'bout the state of tha pilot mindset here in the GCC.

Basically the good days 'r gone. The profession is in decline globally, pilots usually come to the door with debt from the trainin' they paid fer, and are willin' to work for little to start with hopin' to gain increases as the years go by. Emirates (the carrier whom I work fer) has been able to capitalize nicely over the last many years by hirin' guys 'n gals from failed carriers. This kept the standard high, an' EK has the safety record ta show fer it. That's changin' a bit now.

I haven't seen any numbers yet that tell there's a pilot shortage at the moment. But I reckon' it's comin'.

Pay 'n conditions aren't keepin' up to the rate of inflation. Although paid reasonably well enough by local standards, the local currency ain't worth what it used ta be and that's makin' life hard in my home country. It ain't worth the expat sacrifice anymore. As soon as I can get it organized I'm leavin'. That ain't too far away.

When a small man casts a long shadow - it's pretty near sundown.

Adios 'n good luck with yer interview stuff. I reckon' I didn't actually contribute much, I'm gettin' a bit old 'n grumbly. Time to move on down the line.

Happy contrails!
k-o-t-s

Wizofoz

29th Mar 2008, 16:04

Not really convinced by your statement: if so how do you explain that Ryanair has recruited a lot of people from south America without JAR licence...?

Because the IAA are in Ryanairs pocket, but that still only allowed them to get six month validations. At the end of that time, it was have a JAA license or adios

sispanys ria

29th Mar 2008, 16:06

the bar is not just set by just the company but also by insurance companies and aircraft manufacturers and one would hope, common sense (not much of which is apparent in EK).

What experience do the cadets have when flying these computerized machines ? If a 20 years old lady with 250 TT can fly an airbus for Air France or Luft, I just wonder how come people with 10 times more experience would be too immature for that... Once again, some ME companies are setting high requirements because they can afford it, and of course it's good for the quality. Obviously they wouldn't set the standard that high if there was a shortage. Thousands of experienced pilots would love to apply to EK or EY if the requirements were little bit lower, everybody knows it, so what shortage ?

The word shortage has a very clear meaning. It means there would be less pilots than available positions, which is totally untrue. It's simply more difficult to find specific profiles such as DECs or instructors, but if you search well, you can find them. In the past it was difficult to find a job, now it will become easier for some of us, but "pilots shortage" is totally unadapted.

sispanys ria

29th Mar 2008, 16:36

If you ant work in Europe then YES you need a JAA licence. Expecting any company to hire you without it makes no sense!!!

Finally, if I was charge of hiring at EK or any of the other airlines I would be targeting higher time turboprop captains. A guy in the left seat of, say a Dash 8, with 5000+ total and 2000+ command on it would be a gerat candidate. Flying in NA or Europe in the weather and ATC etc etc and he would have no difficulty transitioning to a jet. 3-5 years later he would have no difficulty with the command upgrade (already has subtantial command experience) and now with jet experience.I have 3000 TT, JAR captain on multi crew corporate advanced light turboprops and helicopters, flying all around Europe for 11 years in a quite intensive job. It was not unusual for me to fly over 8 legs a day with night offset locator approaches on uncontrolled airfields in snowing or icing conditions, coming back from the other end of Europe. With this little experience I couldn't even get the interview for a Dash right seat position in the next door company...

In the ME I didn't even get an answer following my 4 applications as a B1900 Fo by FECA. This is why it is quite frustrating to read these pilots shortage stories, especially when you know it will push companies to setup cadets trainings and that young guys with no experience will get better positions than those I'm currently rejected of. This shortage story is not coming from nowhere, and I guess when we'll know who paid for this report we might get some clue about what is behind it...

Just open your eyes and see what is happening: people are talking a bout a lack of pilots (which in fact is a lack of experienced captains and instructors) and the reaction is to train lots of cadets, while experienced FOs are available. What kind of result do you think we will get that way ?

Most companies will lower their requirements when the need will become real, and I'm sure an experienced heavy turboprop captain would be pleased and able to do the job.

atiuta

29th Mar 2008, 17:59

What about the following scenario.

I come to a multi crew corporate operation on advanced light turboprops (impressive) and helicopters looking for a job but I lack the relevant experience. What's my chances of getting hired?

Another case.

If I was hiring for EK and a European pilot had 5000 hrs T/P time and 2000 in command of a Dash 8, I'd have to ask why he wasn't flying jets already.

You see, there is always another way of looking at a situation.

airbus757

29th Mar 2008, 18:53

sispanys ria,

looks like the world is against you. Every pilot I know has had a much easier time of finding work on brand new widebodys.

7

sispanys ria

29th Mar 2008, 19:09

sispanys ria,

looks like the world is against you.I guess it's just bad luck and that some more time and positive attitude will do the job :8

menard

30th Mar 2008, 06:12

There is already a self imposed pilot shortage in the ME. Airlines here are already operating with insufficient number of crew.

Counting on bending the rules

(Ex.1: Duty officialy starting 1hour before flight, when you're requested to be briefing 1h30 min before departure, so you can be on the crew bus 1h10 before dep.)

(Ex.2: Factoring hours of duty, where factoring is suppose to apply on personal log books only).

Etc etc.

If the airlines here would apply rules and regulations, without intentionally mis-interpreting them, there is not enough pilots already.

What does the future hold? More bending of rules? Or not enough pilots?

Pilot shortage, maybe. Airlines suffering from it, I doubt!

sarahamdan88

30th Mar 2008, 13:24

seems like the problem is a lack of experienced pilots in the region. on top of that, inflation woes are making it an easier decision for expats to go back to their home countries. so the result will be a group of newly trained cadets-turned-FOs operating most flights in the next ten years?

where does that leave experienced FOs?...

also, if there really will be a pilot shortage in the near future, won't that make it harder for airlines to add new destinations and place more orders for aircrafts?

Trader

31st Mar 2008, 01:09

atiuta, that would be a fair question to ask. However, I could see many skippers on those turboprops staying on them for the pay. Big cut to go sit in the right seat of a jet for most Euro operators.

atiuta

31st Mar 2008, 03:36

Sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards and it raises a question on an individuals plannng and motivation.

Personally I'd like to see the doors opened for T/P pilots at least it would increase the depth of available pilots. The best T/P pilot has got to be better than the worst jet pilot that EK is hiring at the moment.

abtz

2nd Apr 2008, 03:25

i believe there is no shortage. i was looking for a job for two months but i couldnt find any. i have 6000 hrs with 8years of experience. most of the jobs are held by agents , and they are making money by our talents.the big surprise is , they tell you that they need JAA license in Europe . whether the license is ICAO, FAA , we know how to fly it.these people are creating arificial problems. and most companies are not treating pilots properly.for the moment , i decided to stay away from my beloved profession, and i am now enjoying life with my children and my wife. it is wonderful experience.all in all shortages are created bc of bad management of airlines.

Wizofoz

2nd Apr 2008, 03:38

they tell you that they need JAA license in Europe

That might be because....err... you DO!!

abtz

2nd Apr 2008, 03:53

dear sara

what i forgot to ask you in my previous remark is that , which airline is in shortage in middle east? they are not even hiring , their requiremnt and their selection process looks like a preparation to join NASA.anyways people are hired to make pilots life miserable .

forget it anyways.

oz in dxb

2nd Apr 2008, 11:52

If there is a pilot shortage, why am I sitting on my proverbial and not doing any flying on my month of reserve????

They have at least 40 - 50 guys on April reserve as well. How much flying is there really?

Oz

AvEnthusiast

2nd Apr 2008, 12:40

Hi Sarah88,

I'm just going to focus on your first question.

Well I don't think that there is shortage of talent in this region. As we all know so far west was leading aviation, so the focus point was there. From running the business even to investing in aviation training. And alongside that people there were persuaded to come to aviation field in order to have their businesses going and they did that by providing scholarships, cadet programs, grants, loans and so on. And even aviation enthusiasts (self-sponsored) knew that there is a market. And today's captains were cadets once upon time.

But now many researches have shown that Asia is going to be leading this industry in a few years. And the main economic development player is Middleast having India and China at the background. So, now it's time for Asian airlines to have those young aviation enthusiast sponsored; people who have dreamt of years becoming pilots, but couldn't any or other reason. And they have to do the capacity building, as those captains were cadets sometime, these cadets are going to be captains in coming years. People who are used to asian life style and many more factors which can reduce the costs in a long term prospect, than having expats in short term. And it seems that some airlines have already thought of this.

Regards,
AvEnthusiast

uplock

2nd Apr 2008, 13:41

oz in dxb Your on your proverbial because the ULR FTLs were twiddled with and instead of 48 hr and 36 hour layovers we have these bug eyed turn arounds of 24 hourshttp://www.jeffpidgeon.com/uploaded_images/sleepy-799997.jpg

oz in dxb

2nd Apr 2008, 15:14

uplock! where did you get the photo of me????!!!!

Oz

.Aero

9th May 2008, 12:26

Don't forget to watch the Middle East Business Report on BBC WORLD which airs tomorrow (Saturday) - They'll be looking at pilot shortages in the region.

Local times can be found on:
http://www.bbcworld.com/Pages/Programme.aspx?id=26

hunter320

9th May 2008, 22:03

I would like to say how impressed i was when i heard of the Scheme the Government of Bahrain has came up with, to address the pilot shortage issue in the ME,

Bahrain Development Bank and Gulf Air, both owned by the government investment company called MUMTALAKAT, started to offer student loans for cadet pilots.
as we know that getting your flying license will cost know a days over 100,000$, which is a lot of money that not many can afford, just to get started.
with an interest rate of not more than 3.5% offered by the bank, they managed to attract more people to apply.
more locals are attracted to the job now with the new packages being offered.
the government is hoping to reach to a stage where they can export bahraini pilots to the rest of the region, by which they will be addressing 2 issues, 1- the pilot shortage for their own national carrier.
2- creating more jobs for their people.

I know this will not address the issue of experienced pilots but its a start.

you have to start somewhere to get the experiance.......