AOA Survey

[fuji]

Only about 540 people have completed the survey!
That's only about half of the membership of the AOA alone.
Come on guys pull your fingers out!
It only takes 5 minutes of your precious time.

[HK_Director]

just done it. it takes 4 minutes to have a say in your career.
remember login details are in an email from the AOA.
btw how would a non-member complete the survey if he/she doesn't have login details?

[BusyB]

Ring the AOA 2736-0823, they will email you login details which enable you to answer anonymously:ok:

[The Management]

A reminder, engaging in any kind of industrial action with The Cathay Pacific Group will have a direct impact on some careers. Are you willing to take that risk?

Where will you go to find employment? Will your colleagues support you? I think we all know the answers.

Choose wisely.

To My Bonus

The Management

[Harbour Dweller]

Where will you go to find employment?

Lots of choices out there... :ok:

[ACMS]

That guy pretending to be management isn't still trolling around these parts is he?

Ignore the D:mad:d

[CharlieX-ray]

Why do non-members have a say?
If you pay you have a say, if you don't pay, who cares!

[BusyB]

Because the AOA wants to know the overall feelings of the entire pilot force. Members get to vote on any item negotiated.:ok:

[flyingkiwi]

if they actually replied to emails requesting the password then there would be more respondants

[GANKER]

Hey management if there was industrial action I agree it would effect some careers! Namely YOURS!
Choose wisely, as where are you going to go with your fantastic people dealing skills in your resume?

[BusyB]

Sorry, Comms problems last week but now restored to normal:ok:

[stillalbatross]

12 years to command now thanks to the AOA.

Why bother?

[BusyB]

stillalbatross,

Please tell me how many years to command it said you would take in your contract?:confused:

[zulapels]

MEMBER OR NON-MEMBER

The survey can be found at the following address:
https://www.ballotpoint.com/HKAOA/ (mhtml:{896136F4-6FA1-4E8C-9426-19BBD9236359}mid://00000017/!x-usc:https://www.ballotpoint.com/HKAOA/)

If you do not have your login information please contact the AOA office [email protected] or phone 2736-0823.

[AnAmusedReader]

if they actually replied to emails requesting the password then there would be more respondants


The AOA server was down for a few days last week and they 'lost' several emails - mine as well. I phoned and got my password, later confirmed by email so all is woirking now.

[stillalbatross]

Please tell me how many years to command it said you would take in your contract?

The AOA said that there would only be a month or so added on from their ASL additions. It is closer to 3 or 4 years. Without the AOA in existence we'd all still be looking at tops 8-9 years.

Are you trying to say that commands at CX occurring considerably quicker than at legacy carriers haven't been a strong draw card for pilots coming here? So you'd still have come if commands were going from 8 to 18 or 20 years?

Pull the other one.

[BusyB]

I came when commands were running at 6-7 years. Mine took 14. Perhaps all the AOA members at that time should have had a whip around to make up my salary!!!:D

As far as ASL goes that cost me 3-4 years and if the freighters come back onto the seniority list to prevent out of seniority commands it can only be a reduction in time to command.

RA65 is different, yes there may be an increase in time to command. Without bypass pay you would not be compensated as I wasn't.:(

[stillalbatross]

RA65 is different, yes there may be an increase in time to command

And the 'Understatement of the Year' award goes to........................

[Liam Gallagher]

"The AOA said that there would only be a month or so added on from their ASL additions. It is closer to 3 or 4 years"

I assume you mean the 2nd Integration... throw me a lifeline here... How has the integration increased your time to comand..?

[simplex]

:Mine took 14

BusyB you're a B scaler, a GC negotiator, a training captain and joined Jul94.
Your numbers don't add up. The NCer would not be happy.
Why would you be bull****ting in PPrune?

[BusyB]

simplex,

hope you don't play the horses. You're wrong:D

The NC'er knows I'm telling the truth:ok:

[stillalbatross]

I assume you mean the 2nd Integration... throw me a lifeline here... How has the integration increased your time to comand..?

On a single day there were 90 additions to the seniority list thanks to the AOA. Last time I looked we weren't doing 90 commands a day............

Maybe I should hold out for mates in BALPA to get me a command at BA and shaft their own BALPA members, you think I'll be waiting a while?

[BusyB]

They are all below everybody. Whats your beef?:confused:

[Numero Crunchero]

Simplex
you have not described BusyB at all. His numbers do add up if you know about him. For the sake of his anonymity I will leave it at that other than to say that I trust him and often disagree with him;-)



Last I checked it was CX that has introduced all the deleterious actions to our career and contract. The AOA GC tries to ameliorate CX impositions. If the AOA tries to introduce something that we don't want, we can vote it down...or maybe if it is soooo bad, CX will just refuse to implement it!


The AOA is not the bad guy - we are the AOA. If you don't like where we are going then say something or do something.

[Mr. Bloggs]

BusyB put yourself into a junior officer’s position i.e. below the rank of Captain. You just slotted in 90 Captains on the freighter that could have gone to Senior First Officers on the Cathay Seniority list. :{

Agreeing to this just screwed 90 F/O’s which affects everyone below them.:{

ASL may be junior but they are in the Captains role. Great system. We are now allowing CX to bring in KA pilots in DEC positions, rapid commands ( no disrespect to the KA pilots), but is that fair to our Senior F/O’s that would like to bid for those positions or a Capt that would like to fly the freighter on a base because the passenger bases are full?:eek:

If they join the bottom of the list, there rank should reflect this.:ok:

Allowing stuff like this is only going to pave the way for DEC on the passenger fleet, when Cathay Pacific gets desperate enough.:ugh:

We stopped hiring ASL pilots back in 2000 and all freighter commands after that came from the Cathay Seniority List, so now 90 pilots just jumped the queue. CX should have left the ASL pilots with ASL but no, Cathay needed the FACA to disappear. Why do we let this sh!te happen to us.:ugh::ugh:

So now the FACA has disappeared and we have 90 DEC onto the freighter, what are we doing about it? :oh:

Yes I see what we are doing; we are negotiating retirement age and screwing our junior crew out of their contractual by-pass pay.:suspect::ugh:

Maybe the junior crew should join the CPU because the AOA is surely not looking out for their interest.:ok:

[Harbour Dweller]

Well said Mr Bloggs... :D

No wonder so many junior crew are looking elsewhere.

[Busdude]

For the record; I think I know BusyB, his numbers are right but more complicated than you think.
I think the time has come to admit that Cathay has become a "mature" airline. It's not the expat, hardship airline which it once was 20 or 30 years ago. I will admit that within the past few years ( a blip as it were) the effects of pollution have added a level of hardship (I apologize to parents of asthmatic children, it's more than just a hardship), but, we are as mature as Air Canada, British Airways, Qantas, S African, etc. Were you to have joined those airlines, you would have expected a decade or two to get your commands. I know guys at AC who joined in the 80's who have yet to get their commands, due to their own choice (life style, family commitments etc).
I joined on the wrong side of 93 and watched my command time erode by at least 4 years by the introduction of ASL (that delay is a guess). Do I now claim a right to work a bit longer to make up for the loss of income incurred by that decision? Trust me, I do not voluntarily want to work longer at this job at my own volition. I am still wondering why anyone in their right mind would want to work for an ultra long haul airline below the age of 35. I would leave this job tomorrow if I could afford to leave. As a matter of fact, if I were a young FO, I would be wondering why a bunch of 55 year olds want to keep on working at ultra long haul. Trust me, it's not because they are enjoying the job, or that they are paying off wives (although some are), it's beause times have changed and they need the income to carry on. They are probably no different to you. Although, I have flown with young FOs who have just come back from holidays I can only imagine, planning their next one, in town long enough to buy a new property before operating a trip. Jealous probably doesn't describe it,but it is a new world to me.
I would propose, seeing as people now seeing flying as money making career (you're missing the point people!), we base retirement from Cathay as asset dependant. Which means; if you are a young FO with several properties, you must leave to make way for some one behind you. If you are a senior B Scale Captain with kids and a couple of wives with no assets but are medically fit to fly, you can stay. At the end of the day, if you have enough money to leave Cathay, why are you here? Leave and let some other poor bugger carry on.
Before I open up my second bottle of wine, one other thing: don't work G Days. You're a selfish idiot if you do. Y
ou only hurt your colleagues when you do that. Sorry two; don't fly ultra long haul below the age of 35. Join your Air Force, work for the UN, fly in the Canadian north or the Outback. At least have a story to tell when you sit in the flight deck for 8 hours.
Busdude

[Numero Crunchero]

busdude and mr bloggs....well said!

[backspace]

Not taking sides but isn't that the reason the company advertised the freighter command slots. All the "ASL" commands were available to anyone in the company. As I understand it there were more than 90 applicants, not sure how many were awarded. Some of these were pax captains that wanted a basing so this has in fact created some pax command vacancies in Hong Kong as well. All the ASL Capts got was a guarantee to remain on their base in the left seat. So effectively most of the freighter bases will be overstaffed and the FACA will probably effectively remain so that the company can get there pound of flesh from those that are on the freighter. As I understand they are all at the bottom of the list (as at 01/01/08) and will not get a pax command until their seniority comes up.

Of course the flaw in the argument is that the company doesn't move the goal posts, again!!!

[Loopdeloop]

Several of the ASL captains are approaching or beyond 55 so with the demise of the FACA, is bypass pay being paid for these extendees?
Looking at the CoS, there is no distinction between Pax and Frt captains where bypass pay is concerned.

[backspace]

Loop, Good question. I am guessing that the ASL to Cathay contract doesn't specify a retirement age and there is some clause in there to get the company out of that one.

Over to the AOA!!

[Liam Gallagher]

Some good points...

The FACA actually said there can be no second Integration.... I got the impression the AOA turned a blind eye to this and didn't oppose the second integration because they saw it could benefit some of their members in that YVR and SYD bases (particularly) would become available and the by-pass issue would be blown wide-open.

However, once you step outside the contract you are in the "rule of jungle" and the company (the master of the jungle) has replaced the FACA with a "Notice to Crew".... hence no by-pass for the over 55's on the freighter...

As for those YVR and SYD bases... how many guys actually went for it and then how many got through the PCA and then how many of those survived the star chamber? I personally know of 3 who have been told they were so close to getting through; try again in 6 months...... of course there will be no bases in 6 months.... funny that...:eek:

[Numero Crunchero]

No blind eye turned....it was an imposed change!

No bypass pay paid for freighter captains on extension...CX interpretation!

[Mr. Bloggs]

So I assume nothing is being done about it then i.e. court action. But I guess we don’t want to p1ss off the GMA or CX Management. Appease the bully/GMA I suppose.:ugh:

Is the HKAOA scared to put the Association’s head above the parapet? That is why we pay our dues so we don’t (that is another thread and I won’t go there)?:{

May as well put our heads in the sand.:rolleyes::=

Back to the AOA survey, how many this time will vote for industrial action whether it is just Contract Compliance and not do it? :yuk::yuk::(

Do use some justice, if you have no intention of doing industrial action please say so. I don’t want to get shot or stabbed in the back by my own colleagues AGAIN!:ok:

BTW, last time most voted for industrial action with no intention of doing so, but rather see other colleagues do their dirty work for them. Well you know the rest. Men of character.:ok:

I just can’t believe WE (as an association and pilot group) allow the GMA to have his interpretation of a document where it clearly states otherwise.:oh:

Hard to understand.:confused::confused:

[Liam Gallagher]

From 2 discussions I had with 2 very senior AOA figures, although an imposed deal as you say, they felt the implications of 2nd Integration favoured the majority of members and therefore would not be opposed..... I call that "blind eyed"...

Back on thread; irrespective of what results may come out of the survey; one result Nick Rhodes will pay attention to is the response rate. If you can't be @rsed completing the survey, are you really going to be @rsed with Contract Compliance, DEFO, FACA, RA 65 etal. Member or non-member, it's a painless procedure so there can be no excuses for anything other than 100% return.

[trident-too]

Busdude,you are obviously in the wrong job! Believe it or not some chaps,even "crusty old 55 year olds" actually enjoy flying-that's why I became a pilot all those years ago! So don't assume something to which you are noy privy ie reasons for carrying on after 55 etc.Some of us ,believe it or not, are still with our first wives &have probably enough dosh too-work that one out!

[fuji]

Still only about 700 completed.
Come on people thats still not good enough.
10 days left to get it done.

[The Management]

Approximately 2100 pilots in The Cathay Pacific Group and there seems to be at most 700 angry or upset pilots. I speculate of the 700 pilots roughly 10% are angry and the rest upset.

Of those 700 pilots, I dare say many have chosen wisely and not voted for industrial action of any kind. This represents 30% of the pilot workforce with roughly 3% angry and most likely posting unpleasant comments about the Cathay Pacific Group as an employer.

I presume 70% or 1400 of the pilots are happy with The Cathay Pacific Group as an employer.

This has given The AOA Leadership and The Cathay Pacific Group Management a great indicator of the resolve of the pilot workforce.

This will make OUR job considerably painless in implementing new contracts in the future and targeting small groups on different contracts in order to lower them. You may expect that DHL letter sooner than you think.

Again where will you go Jetstar, JetBlue, India, Korea, Middle East? With all the cuts we will execute The Cathay Pacific Group will remain the best compensated.

This gives us the power to translate current contracts as we see fit. What will happen if we ignore certain aspects of your contract i.e. upgrade policy for all ranks, basing allocation, EFP payments, AFTL’s, bypass pay allocation, extensions beyond 55, etc. take a survey, take us to court?

We will attack these groups at different times in order to keep the pilot group attacking each other. This is a very effective strategy. While one group is having their contract changed or abused, other groups don’t care as it does not affect them. We have done this for years.

For those that will remain in The Cathay Pacific Group expect your contract and the abuse of your contract to worsen as most have just given us permission to do so.

To My Bonus

The Management

[cpdude]

Yawn!:zzz:

[fire wall]

Yawn my arse !
Cpdude you seem to miss the point - all be it a sartirical one.
A low turn out on the survey will send a message to the upper floors that there is little resolve to stand up when they next "tinker" with our COS / rostering / 3 man ULH / bypass / direct entry LHS on pax fleet and so on.
Still yawning ?

[simplex]

>hope you don't play the horses. You're wrong

You're right BusyB and I apologise for being wrong.

You're an A scaler, a GC negotiator, YVR based, and joined Sep89.
Still not sure about 14 years to command though...2003?

No don't play horses only donkeys.

[Numero Crunchero]

simplex,
if it was cleudo you were playing you would be out now with two wrong guesses!

[BandH]

NC-"For the sake of his anonymity"

New concept, you must have turned over a new leaf!!

[stillalbatross]

The AOA is not the bad guy - we are the AOA. If you don't like where we are going then say something or do something.

For those of us staring down the barrel of 16-18 years to command, who will never get on a base and will have our pay scale frozen at year 8 S F/O we are not the AOA. You only have to read the likes of BusyB posts to see that there are three sides, the company, the AOA (who supports anyone who already has a command) and the guys who joined after Jan 01 2000.

The ASL first integration has added 3 years, this will be long enough for age 65 to add another 5 years, which will be long enough for KA integration to add another 5 years................

Lets be honest, none of this will have any effect on any skipper or most of the GC in the AOA so why should they care. Surely the obvious "do something" is to get everyone who joined CX in 2000 or later out of the AOA if they're in it, and more importantly into a representative body of 1500ish members.

Can't say that anything would be achieved but when the company meets with the pilot representatives, and the company outlines what it wants, and the AOA outlines what it wants (jobs on the pax fleet for it's freighter mates, age 65 for it's skippers, CX pax commands for it's DPA mates etc....), there would be a representative present for 1500 junior CX pilots to say they're possibly a little unhappy.

Wins all round. The junior pilots group get a say and can fight as a unit, it may not be much but it's better than nothing. The AOA never gets a new member again, looses a few hundred annoying junior members and can happily pursue age 65 for the good of it's own, and the company gets to hear from both the AOA and the JPG as to what they want.

Thanks NC, couldn't have thought of it without you:)

[Liam Gallagher]

You have some strange views...

Ive asked this before of you and didn't get a substantive answer; for the second time..How did the first ASL integration add to your command time? If you joined before 1 Jan 2000; you are senior to them and get first "crack" at a pax command. If you joined after; you are Junior. How is this unfair? Anyone can apply for a freighter command; senior most suitable.... Some (ahem) 3 have done it from their first day in the company.

You float the idea of non-Captains breaking away and forming a union. Non- Captains out-number Captains, so by your theory Non-Captains should join the AOA and under "one man-one vote" load the GC with like minded individuals.

I am not sure where you get your information from regarding CX Industrial Relations.... but I would change sources pretty quick....

[BusyB]

Seems to me that the AOA is being slagged off by the junior pilots for being an A-scale GC and the senior pilots for being a Junior pilot GC!!?:confused:

Maybe we're doing the best possible and are getting it about right:ugh:

[Numero Crunchero]

The AOA is a disparate group; A scalers, B scalers, freighter pilots, LEPs, based etc etc. There is almost nothing that can be done that doesn't inevitably favour one group over another. The CPU was formed to continue on with the aim of re-employment of the 49ers and and seeking greater legal clarity of our contract (well thats how I see them). Considering how major an event the 49ers was to our history it is disappointing that so few people have joined the CPU. To me it demonstrates that our best hope of success in all issues is within one semi-cohesive body. So whilst many might like to start a whole new union, the AOA is the best option right now, IMO.

GC democracy?
The AOA GC is self selected. In my time here at CX there was only one occasion where I had to actually choose amongst a surplus of GC candidates and only two presidential elections. So if you don't like what it is doing or where it is going, then make sure you or someone of your ilk runs for a GC or presidential position in the next GC. From memory I think nominations are in May or June and elections in July or August - I am sure BusyB will clarify.

So when I state you should 'say or do something', I suggest the best and most effective way is within the framework of the current AOA structure. If you really think you can get 1100+ people to join a new union then by all means set one up.

GC 2008-09
If we all committed to doing one or two years in the AOA in our career here, we would have over 100 candidates for the coming GC elections - that would mean over five candidates per position.
With that sort of candidature we would all ensure we only selected those whose views were in tune with our own. There could be no more calls of unrepresentative GCs.

Almost half of the last few GCs have been based and or commuting pilots so do not let that 'excuse' stop you or your friends from being nominated.



Regardless of who is in the GC, remember they operate within a parsimonious corporate framework. We work for a company that thinks 3% is an acceptable payrise after 7 years vs over 40% for EK and over 20% for QF. We work for a company that trumpets a C scale payrise of 6% which results in the C scale(Cos08) only being a 20+% paycut vs CoS99!

Chamberlain got us 'peace in our time' as he did not have the national will for confrontation. If you wish to achieve much you must risk much. Fortunately the 'much' you must risk is becoming less and less valuable. CX may have some 'lost opportunities', but many ex CX pilots are seeking 'better opportunities'.

CX - its just a job!

[bobrun]

What's all talk about the "two integrations"? Sorry for being a bit out of the loop here. What has happened exactly?

[Numero Crunchero]

Around 1996 CX decided to back door the seniority list by having DECs. They did this by separating the freighter flying from pax flying. In 1999 union negotiations CX/AOA gave the freighter pilots a ONCE and ONCE ONLY chance to reintegrate into CX mainline, wef 1/1/00. Most took that chance. As part of that deal CX mainline pilots could refuse to fly the freighter due to CRM issues between CX mainline and ASL.

Since 2000, CX has had a lot of trouble manning the freighter so it decided to renege on a deal that was "binding in honour only" and give the remaining ASL employees a second "ONCE and ONCE ONLY" chance to come across to CX mainline wef 1/1/08. I think the offer was, in Godfather terms, 'an offer too good to refuse'. By doing this CX mainline pilots could no longer refuse to fly the freighter as there are no CRM issues when you all fly for one big happy company! It is win-win for CX. They don't pay bypass pay for the new CNs even though they are on the mainline seniority list and many are over 55. With a stroke of their omnipotent pen they have removed any lingering CRM issues and now the freighter can be manned by A scale CNs on the 400 - thus allowing CX to save face on the whole 'money saving' exercise of setting up ASL in the first place.

So we have two groups of ex ASL employees who have joining dates of 1/1/00 and 1/1/08.

Clear as mud?

[Kitsune]

At least our competitors will be getting the same bat (regreased I hope). A mate who works for DHL had the unpleasant surprise of being invited to attend a meeting to introduce a certain "Captain" O'G**vey, who had been brought it to "streamline" the operation..........expect a major influx of disgruntled DHL pilots soon......(how did The Management know?):eek:

[stillalbatross]

You have some strange views...

Ive asked this before of you and didn't get a substantive answer; for the second time..How did the first ASL integration add to your command time? .

Listen carefully I shall say this only once. Very simple, CX did lots of hiring in 98 and 99 on the pax fleet, but could only start 4 a week on course so plenty ended up waiting for start dates of a year or so. However there wasn't such a delay with ASL on the freighter between interview and course sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo the net result is that hundreds of guys who interviewed and got pax jobs have had command slots taken by freighter crews who interviewed later but got start dates on the freighter fleet earlier. And who ended up on the pax fleet with a command even though that's not the job they interviewed for or (I assume) were expecting.

AOA was made aware of this by the company, that adding 100-odd freighter pilots on a single day disadvantaged pax joiners and overnight added considerably to command time. AOA decided this was distant future and irrelevant.



I am not sure where you get your information from regarding CX Industrial Relations.... but I would change sources pretty quick....

That all came from chatting with the AOA Pres. at the time, I am attempting to change sources pretty quick. For the moment, I pay scant regard to anything the union tells me.



You float the idea of non-Captains breaking away and forming a union. Non- Captains out-number Captains, so by your theory Non-Captains should join the AOA and under "one man-one vote" load the GC with like minded individuals.


No, you misunderstand me. The AOA won't ever move forward as a common body when it happily sells out one part of it's membership to another (I'm pretending that the ASL crews that came across were all union members when the AOA was fighting to get them pax seniority) That fundamentally goes against the heart of an association . The post '99 crews need representation as cohesive body themselves that isn't found in the AOA today.

If, somehow, I loaded up the AOA GC with post '99 joiners there wouldn't be a captain amongst us and even I can see this wouldn't work. Though I would argue there would be far more equality and understanding and perhaps the more senior members would see the difficulties junior members are facing.

[Liam Gallagher]

CX did lots of hiring in 98 and 99 on the pax fleet

Actually no.... CX was coming out of the Asian Financial Crisis and there was not a lot of SO's hired. Equally ASL took a modest number in 98 and only about 4 in 99.

You appear to be saying seniority should be date of interview..... not date of joining...... interesting concept.....

And who ended up on the pax fleet with a command even though that's not the job they interviewed for or (I assume) were expecting.

On the 1 Jan 2000 I resigned from ASL and joined Veta at the bottom of the Seniority List; my expectations changed. Why should myself (or the AOA for that matter) have any obligations to protect people who haven't joined the company yet.....!!

Like I said... you have some strange views

[stillalbatross]

Actually no.... CX was coming out of the Asian Financial Crisis and there was not a lot of SO's hired. Equally ASL took a modest number in 98 and only about 4 in 99.


Let me rephrase, CX did a lot of interviewing 98 and 99 and I'll go wildly out on a limb here and say it was for the purpose of hiring, which was delayed. Unless you are going to tell me it wasn't interviewing for the purpose of hiring:ugh:


You appear to be saying seniority should be date of interview..... not date of joining...... interesting concept.....



No what I am saying is that if I am waiting for a start date on the pax fleet I don't expect the AOA to go into bat for someone on the separate ASL freighter fleet to take pax seniority away from me. Is that asking too much?



On the 1 Jan 2000 I resigned from ASL and joined Veta at the bottom of the Seniority List; my expectations changed. Why should myself (or the AOA for that matter) have any obligations to protect people who haven't joined the company yet.....!!


So the extra 3-4 years that pax joiners have had involuntarily added to their time to command is the same as you voluntarily taking a basing? :confused:

Yes my idea's are strange, I completely fail to grasp that one. After the AOA allows RA 65 and another 4-5 years to command goes onto the 3-4 they already gave me I assume you would recommend my 'expectations' change again:)

[Liam Gallagher]

I can only deal with your posts as you write them.... I'm not a mind reader.

I don't expect the AOA to go into bat for someone on the separate ASL freighter fleet to take pax seniority away from me.

The AOA going into bat for ASL.... that will come as news to a lot of people... yet another strange idea or did you mean to write something else.:ugh:

When the Integration occurred and you supposedly had pax seniority taken away from you, were you paying AOA fees? If not, what obligation has the AOA got to look after your interests?

You seem to be under the false view that the integration(s) were the result of some collusion between the AOA and ASL.... you are seriously deluded..

Equally, the AOA quote "allows RA65"... how do you propose the AOA stops it... what have you done to stop it?

[stillalbatross]

Equally, the AOA quote "allows RA65"... how do you propose the AOA stops it... what have you done to stop it?

It isn't rocket surgery, for starters the AOA could put together a spreadsheet that clearly shows what a difference to career earnings and retirement will mean to a B scaler that now does 17-19 years as an F/O and joined at whatever the average age the last 5 years has been (30-33?).

I fly with senior guys who can't actually grasp what losing 10 years of command pay in your career means in dollars and cents. No seriously. There is no way the junior AOA members are going to get their message about the potential for a huge loss in earnings across to the rest of the AOA if the GC themselves keep looking the other way.

I see a right and a need for plenty to go to 65 if they wish but it would be nice, don't you think, if the GC could say to it's members this is what the cost of RA65 to the more junior members will be.

Just a thought and thanks for the replies.

[BusyB]

Deadbird,

I have to say I find your posts ignorant and condescending.

When did you sign a contract with years to command written into it (what makes you think you'll pass first-time or ever with your CRM)?

How do you expect to defy the law of the land as far as RA65 goes?

Your sums regarding delays to command by ASL integration defy belief, it will reduce your command time. Not like the 3 yrs the creation of it added to mine.

As someone who did 14 yrs to command in CX you obviously make inaccurate generalities (that won't help with your command either).

Now I'll go and sleep it off and hopefully forget this thread:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[backspace]

Busy,

Sorry but I don't understand, how did the ASL integration add to your time to command? No I wasn't ASL I just don't see how if they are placed on the bottom of the seniority list how that effects you.

[BusyB]

Sorry Backspace, -edited now:ok:

[Numero Crunchero]

Backspace,
before ASL was introduced all pax and freighters were flown by pilots on the CX seniority list. The introduction of ASL took the freighters away and CX took the opportunity to lower FO and CN (and FE for that matter) salaries for freighter flying. So not sure of the number but I suspect it was close to 100 commands that should have gone to CX employees that ended up going to ASL employees.

The re-integration of ASL in 1/1/00 has caused a huge blip or bubble of numbers coming up for command later this year. I hear people complaining about that - usually those that joined soon after 1/1/00. The real winners out of the reintegration are the CX employees who joined between 96 and 2000 as their ASL peers who are senior to them, in terms of years working for CX/ASL are now junior to them on the seniority list as their official start date is 1/1/00.
So its not a case of people joining after 1/1/00 being disadvantaged, but rather those that joined in 98 and 99 being advantaged since the ASL seniority of their more senior peers was not grandfathered into CX!

BusyB has alluded to the fact that reintegrating the second ONCE and ONCE only group of ASL pilots into CX will reduce time to command. This is not correct, IMO. What will reduce time to command is if all commands, pax and freighter, are done strictly in seniority order from the top of the FO list. At the moment anyone can apply for a freighter command...due to inferior pay and rostering conditions it often goes to quite junior FOs. Every command taken by a junior pilot extends time to command for all pilots senior to them. I see nothing has changed thus far, in terms of the pay and rostering of freighter pilots, so until those terms and conditions are improved, time to command will still be lengthened by early freighter commands!

Still albatross,
I have done a spreadsheet and I do know the expected delay to command and the expected loss of career earnings. Whilst the numbers are significant yours appear to be a little sensationalist and off the mark.

Simple numerical example. If CX is expanding such that it needs approx 100 CNs per year then RA65 would halve that requirement assuming 100% extend beyond 55. In ten years from now the 65year olds will have to retire and we go back to the situation we have now where half the commands are for retirees and the other half are for expansion.
If all pilots extend for 5 years, then time to command increases by approx 2.5 years. If they all extend for 10 years, then time to command extends approx 5 years.
If full bypass pay is received then loss of career earnings is equivalent to working for free for one year. That is, you will need to work at 56 just to get your career earnings to catch up to where they would have been at 55. If you don't get any bypass pay, which is what CX has been angling for with based guys, you need to work three more years to recover the lost career earnings.

clear as mud?

[BusyB]

NC,

You are right I was assuming all commands in strict seniority order.:ok:

As a matter of interest have you calculated how many extra years an A-Scaler has to work to make up for his '99 paycut?:confused:

[fire_fox0224]

No. Because nobody really cares.

[BenCLR8]

BusyB,

Does that not depend on what price you sold your CX share options at? or were they part of an earlier deal?

[simplex]

>if it was cleudo you were playing you would be out now
>with two wrong guesses!

Oh bollocks NC - BusyB is your GC "budd" Nick.
Speaking of cleudo, interestingly his initials are NC.
Birds of a feather do flock together.

[stillalbatross]

Too much misinformation on here, I sense the AOA knives are coming out.

[Numero Crunchero]

simplex,
keep guessing - only about 18GC members left to guess so you will get it right eventually!

stillalbatross,
what are you getting at? Maybe I am a little thick or you are too subtle?

BusyB,
yes I could work it out and no I haven't. I find it best to deal with what I have rather than what I might have had as that makes me angry and I don't fly well angry.
I do remember that back in 99 I worked out that the CX share price had to rise to about $40-50 by 2004 for me to recover the lost earnings. I switched mine at $10-11 thanks to a change in my personal circumstances!
I also remember being told that the options were only to cover the career earnings lost for 10 years as by then B scales will have caught up with A scales. So on that basis, B scalers can look forward to a 20-30% payrise next Jan in order for CX to stand by its commitments...then again, maybe it was a zoologist commitment like the "10% above our competitor's salary"! Another 'binding in honour only' promise methinks.

[cxlinedriver]

With fewer than half the pilots in the AOA any talk of action is just talk. Even when we had over 90% of the pilots too many did not follow through during the go-slow.

This survey is a waste of time.

What the AOA must do is contact all of the 'quitters' and find out why they quit. The issues raised must then be addressed. Without the members the AOA is nothing.

The f**king stupid employment ban didn't help. Only meant that new joiners flipped the bird and came to CX anyway.

No doubt I will be flamed for this post...those that quit did so for many valid reasons. It takes a lot of courage to do so - it is harder than just going with the flow. The AOA must change its way and get the membership numbers up.

[cxlinedriver]

Mr Bloggs wrote:

'BTW, last time most voted for industrial action with no intention of doing so, but rather see other colleagues do their dirty work for them. Well you know the rest. Men of character.'

Many members were told to vote for industrial action to 'send a strong message to the management'.

I fully agree that if you vote for action then you must follow through. Too many wanted to 'send the message' to management. It was also not helpful to ask members to vote for action but not to tell them what that action would be. Nigel argued that it was to limit the ability of management to respond (to what turned out to be a go-slow), in effect it meant that it was too easy for too many not to take action.