Need help on PPL decision and finances

[midiman]

Hi I have had one trial lesson so far and I want to get back out there. But the problem I have now is with £££££.

I can just about afford to go for a PPL here in the UK. If it was an ideal world and I didn't have to work then I would go to the USA.

But there is another problem that it I will face. Once I have completed my PPL I will only be able to afford around 1 lesson a month. So I have no way of gaining any useful hours.

It's like just being able to pay for driving lessons and then having a monthly refresher after your have passed.

I would like to build hours and go on from there or else it is pointless.

Why the hell is flying so darn expensive ££££££££££££££££££ :confused:

[BackPacker]

Do you intend to go commercial, IR, ME or something else for which you need the full PPL? Or do you just see it as an (expensive) hobby, and want to experience the magic of flight?

In the latter case, you may want to consider an NPPL on Microlights or gliding. Both are much cheaper but equally demanding and satisfying.

If you cannot afford 12-20 flying hours per year minimum after you gained your PPL (or other license), don't even start. The legal minimum for PPL revalidation by experience is 12 hours every 2nd year, but if you fly that few hours you can hardly be called safe and proficient. Plus, it will barely get you out of the local circuit anyway.

[foxmoth]

Why the hell is flying so darn expensive ££££££££££££££££££

There are other ways as Backpacker says, and if you still want to go the PPL route, have a look at group membership on PFA (LAA) types, a search on group flying will throw up lots of threads, ours costs £90/month with flying at about £30/hour for a 5 member group, find a maximum number group (20) and you can actually have quite cheap flying with a share as low as £600 (even lower on a single seater, but not many 20 share groups on these) and flying at around £50/hour or less.:ok:

[midiman]

I can afford to buy a package in the UK and train.

It’s about £6020 at my local airfield for PPL.

I don't know if I want to take things further due to only starting. Maybe after 50 lessons I would want to pursue some more ratings??

I would love to go for an ATPL but that’s another story.

It seems to be he same chicken and egg syndrome that I have endured for years.

Without experience (hours) it is impossible to gain a foothold. An instructor position would be great but I will need 250hrs after my PPL before I could apply.

In hire rates that’s £26250!!!!

Even some additional ratings seem to require numerous hours. And if I can only afford 1 lesson a month building hours will be a very hard long slog.

[RudeNot2]

I did not see anything mentioned before, but if you can afford the full course at present...


DO NOT PAY UPFRONT

Do the old trick with credit cards and use the interest free period to your advantage, and leave the money in a high interest account for as long as possible...

Get speaking with folk at the airfield and find out what groups operate etc. LAA types will possibly let you fly for two to three hours or more for the same as a single lesson!

[BackPacker]

Midiman, don't buy the PPL package outright. Take baby steps: Buy a block of three trial lessons to start with, so you can see if you like it. If you do, set your next target at first solo. After first solo, take a step back and reconsider. If you still enjoy it, do a few theory exams and set your sights at first cross-country solo. Then reconsider again.

In the meantime, read up on the alternatives that I wrote about. NPPL, Microlights, Gliders. They are much cheaper and may give you the same amount of fun anyway.

If you decide to go commercial (either CPL/FI or ATPL) you can either stretch out your training over a large number of years (something like 20 years minimum if you can afford 12 hours a year....) with your current financial situation, or get a loan from a bank. But that last option is a life-changing decision.

Do NOT pay for a PPL package outright. It may be cheaper than paying as you go but flight schools regularly go bust in which case you can forget about that money. If you do buy a package, no matter how small, make sure to buy it using a credit card so you have a big organization to fall back on (and hopefully get your money back from) in case of problems.

Oh, and remember that the 6000-odd UKP the school quotes is the base price for the bare minimums. If you have one lesson a week (which is optimistic) you should count on needing 50-60 hours or more instead of the 45 hours minimum before you're ready for the exam. So realistically you should budget about 1/3rd extra.

[Cricket23]

Completely agree with BackPacker, there are cheaper alrenatives. Also consider strip flying and/or flying with a buddy - with you as the navigator. Also see the 'sticky' thread on sharing seats. In short, there are ways, but they may require a bit of effort and searching out.

Good luck,

C23

[172driver]

Have to agree with pretty much everything BackPacker said. If you cannot afford it, it may be money down the drain (or out the window from 1000ft).

There are alternatives to a JAA PPL. If all you want to do is FLYING, then microlights are a great route. Don't forget that many of the new ones give the old spamcans a run for their money.

There is one thing I would do and two I wouldn't:

DO get a couple of trial lessons first. There are many who dream of flight, but once in the cockpit find they don't enjoy it as much as they thought.

DON'T pay a full course up front - ever! Even if the school is trying to entice you with discounts. Don't do it.

DON'T do the one-lesson-every-other-week thing. While I am sure there are some highly competent people out there who learned to fly that way, this approach simply is not conducive to properly learning anything, let alone flying an a/c.

[BackPacker]

DON'T do the one-lesson-every-other-week thing. While I am sure there are some highly competent people out there who learned to fly that way, this approach simply is not conducive to properly learning anything, let alone flying an a/c.

Well, I don't agree entirely. Having a flying lesson is great fun. If you save up and buy yourself a lesson every time you have enough money for it, you'll have a great time anyway. You just have to consider it a bonus if at some point in time the instructor lets you go solo, x-country solo or signs you out for the flight test. But if you do it that way do not expect that you'll have your PPL after 45 hours.

Oh, and every time you fly with an instructor you can take a passenger too (in the back) and actually let him/her share in the costs. The cost of an instructor is only something like one quarter of the total cost anyway, so you could even consider not aiming to do any test at all, and simply take an instructor every time you have money to burn.

[172driver]

BackPacker, OK seen that way - but wasn't the OP referring to getting a license ? If you just want to fly around a bit without ever actually being PIC, that's perfectly fine. But as with all learning - and this is not limited to aviation - leaving large gaps between exercises/modules/lessons is not a good idea as you mostly have to re-learn part of the previous lesson. OTH cramming TOO much into too short a time isn't to great either, hence the problems some people have with the infamous 4-week courses.

[midiman]

What about sharing flight time with another pilot?

If me and another pilot shared an hour how would that be logged?

eg: Who would be put down as the (PIC)?

You are esentially airborne with another pilot who is sharing the time at the controls.

[BackPacker]

If me and another pilot shared an hour how would that be logged?

Ooops. Don't start that discussion all over again or Bose-X, DFC and others will just move their slugfest in here...:{

As a PPL in SEP (single engine - piston) aircraft, you're always flying aircraft for which the authorities think one crewmember is enough. That's the Pilot in Command. Everybody else (unless you're having a flight lesson or exam) is a passenger as far as the regulations are concerned. So if you fly with a buddy PPL, you log the hours (as P1) when you acted as PIC, and he logs P1 when he's acting. As a passenger you could log the flight as "supernumery" (SNY) but this does not in any way count towards any experience requirement for any license issue/revalidation. So it's normally not done unless the flight was particularly memorable and you want to record it somehow for your own memory.

The PIC is the one who makes the decisions, not necessarily the one who handles the controls. You can be PIC either in the left hand or right hand seat but there can only be one PIC at any given moment.

We just had a big debate here a few weeks ago whether the PIC role can change in-flight. Most people think it can, although it is fairly uncommon to do so and might lead to some indirect legal complications. What's more common is that you are the PIC for one leg, from start to landing, and pay for that leg, and your buddy is PIC for the return leg, and pays for that leg. It still comes down to twice the fun for half the money.

If you want to reduce your flying costs after obtaining your PPL, your best bet is to attract passengers who want to share the costs of the flight with you. This is perfectly legal but there are some limitations to it, which you will learn when you do air law. But if you do it properly you can (theoretically) reduce your flying costs with 75% to 25%, by sharing the flight costs with three passengers (weight and balance permitting).

[AlphaMale]

I thought the pax's TT would go up?

If two people who held PPL's went for a 2 hr flight and 'Person A' was in command he would log PIC time and Person B (also ppl holder) would be able to log that time but not as PIC.

I.e.

If both midiman and myself had 50hrs PIC and 100hrs TT each and I decided to invite midiman on a 1hr flight as a second pair of eyes.

I would finish the flight with 51hrs PIC 101hrs TT
midiman would finish the flight with still 50hrs PIC but 101hrs TT

Or am I barking up the wrong tree? :O

[BackPacker]

I would finish the flight with 51hrs PIC 101hrs TT
midiman would finish the flight with still 50hrs PIC but 101hrs TT

If you think that being SLF time in the back of a 737 should count towards your total time, no objections here. You both would also be one hour older. But that's not the point.

The point is you cannot count any of that 737 pax time, or time as "second pair of eyes" in a SEP towards any experience requirement for license issue/renewal. In the end, for CPL/ATPL etc. it's not the "total time" that's required by the regulations, but the time acting as PIC, SPIC, PICUS, P/UT and so forth.

[AlphaMale]

200 hours flight time with at least 100 hours PIC (if holding a CPL) or 150 hours PIC (if holding a PPL).


What if you were looking to clock up time for a FI course?

200hrs and 100hrs PIC?

[172driver]

Oh NOOOO - here we go again......:{

[BackPacker]

I don't know where you got that from, but I suspect that the other hours are P/UT, PICUS or something else. I don't think being a passenger in a 737 entitles you in any way to become a flight instructor earlier.

Having said that, I just checked LASORS 2008 and cannot find a definitive reference. There might be something in the ANO but I have no time to check now.

[AlphaMale]

:oh: ... *slowly walks toward the door and gently pulling it shut as he leaves without anybody noticing*

Just something I was told. I guess if you spend too much of your time listening to numptys with no clue and professionals with mixed opinions you're bound to get a little confused :{

I'll take your advise and just look at PIC.

Think I was getting confused with;

Q. Can safety pilot log PIC?

A. Yes, a safety pilot in the US can log PIC as long as the other pilot is under the hood in VFR conditions. (Far’s 91.109). The safety pilot can not log PIC if they enter IMC unless the safety pilot has a CFII and MEI and is giving dual.

[Mariner9]

Alpa - quoting obscure sections of the FAR's (which in any event apply only if you intend to fly on an FAA licence) relating to post ppl instrument training only serve to confuse matters. :ugh:

As I've said before, you're welcome to come flying with me. You cannot log any of the flight time though :=

[portsharbourflyer]

Further to this, also the only time you may log P1/under supervision or PICUS on a single pilot aircraft class is after a sucessful flight test with an examiner. The exception is of course on integrated courses, but this is irrelevant to a PPL forum.

Alphamale,

The FAA reg you state is also why you will see some very cheap deals on multi engine hour building in the US, be wary as often only half this time is "loggable" under JAR.

[AlphaMale]

Sections of the FAR's which in any event apply only if you intend to fly on an FAA licence relating to post ppl instrument training

You can see I've spent more time looking at training on the other side of the pond and converting as opposed to the usual route of JAA in the UK. I guess I'm just getting sucked in by the US price tag and good exchange rates.

7 to 12 months in sunny Florida sounds good to me and with no ties holding me back (apart from an apartment - which I can let out) it's pretty hard to resist.

Mariner with the good weather coming our way I look forward to a flight with you :ok:

[midiman]

I am going to book another three lessons in a few weeks time. Then after that I will see if I want to pursue the JAR PPL.

I would go to the states to do it but I cant get the time off work.

If after passing my PPL I may have the urge to go further. But with the cost limitation I would be severly restricted to what I can do.

It would be nice to build some hours so that I could attempt to apply for an ATPL.

But the cost is always going to be an issue to how far I can go. I could be an excellent pilot with potential but without those hours in my logbook I will never get the change to excel.

It would just be a hobby when I can afford to do it.

[Flying Lawyer]

Have any of you concerned about the cost of getting a PPL considered this?

LINK (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=309890)

[IO540]

The only way to do a PPL 'cheap' is to get a lot of unlogged time with another pilot (who lets you fly informally and acts as a sort of mentor) and you learn everything you need to know that way, and then go off to the USA, staying in a cheap motel for the 3wks you will need to run up the minimum training requirements.

I bet nearly all people in the UK who did their PPL in the min 45hrs also had a load of unlogged time.

[Asrian]

I don't know how the situation in the UK is, but I'll consider:

-flying club vs. professional school with full-employed instructors. The club could be much cheaper, but could require more time and to do some work for the club over the year.
-which engine do the training aircraft use? Problem is the high cost for AV-gas. Maybe there are schools or clubs who have lighter training aircrafts or use alternative engines, maybe rotax or thielert diesel engines..and run much cheaper by the hour!

Because of this I decided to join a club 1 hour drive away, not the local club or nearby flying school where I live. Professional instructors, some retired ex-atc and ex-military pilots, instruct there in their spare time, for a low fee and for the club. They have a Diamond Katana with rotax engine that uses regular car gas, and that consumes a lot less than a traditional cessna or piper.
Flying there is about 50% the price I would pay at the professional school around the corner that runs C-172s with AV-gas engines and full-time instructors...so it's still much cheaper driving there each time!
Just a thought...
Maybe it could pay off cost wise to check the schools and clubs further away from where You live...