Flying in NorCal ex Monterey

[Speedbird715]

Hi guys!


PPrune always seems to be a great source for some expert advice on flying anywhere around the globe, so I'll try as well. :)

I'll be in Monterey, CA in early May. Of course I'm in the process of "validating" my JAR PPL to get some flying done over there. One has to love the weak dollar...

The plan is to charter a Skyhawk SP from Monterey Bay Aviation for a two-day overnight tour, maybe six hours flight time or so. Basically I'm looking at the whole San Francisco sectional chart.

Any particular places you guys think one has to see in that area??



Otherwise my plan was to head north initially to San Francisco (fly along the coast not to penetrate the aluminium-rich airspace to deeply) then via Sacramento to Lake Tahoe, which would make for a great overnight stop.

Now there's the big decision - heading south again either to the west or to the east of the Sierra Nevada range. East is very tempting as one could fly towards Mono Lake and enter Yosemite Valley from there. I'm pretty sure I can get a 172SP to 12000 ft or so but I wonder IS THAT ENOUGH FOR A SAFE CROSSING? The terrain is extremly high there and I don't have much mountain flying experience...

Either way, we'd then drift down west again for the Big Sur coast and back to Monterey. Any comments on the route would be highly appreciated. Oh yeah, first time flying in the US by the way :}


Kind regards,
Holger

[crispey]

How much experience do you have?It is extremely tricky flying country when in the mountain areas.There are plenty of other very attractive places to visit .I have a lot of time in Norcal-but mainly at ground level.I did fly around KSAN once and on a calm day- at the surface-it was extremely turbulent when up at 3000 feet.Hot air inland and very cold air near the coast.You need to watch for coastal fog too,especially in the summer

It's a fabulous area and I hope you enjoy it.I would love to have that opportunity.There should be plenty of people on here who can help you.

[Zulu Alpha]

Visit Columbia, East of Sacramento. It is an old goldmining town and from the airfield you can walk into the old town with sidewalks and hitching rails.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/O22

www.columbiacalifornia.com

Also when going north onsider going into the San Francisco bay. The ATC will guide you through a "bay tour" which is very easy and takes you over many landmarks such as Alcatraz etc.

ATC there is very helpful, but they do talk fast (see below).

If you go up the Coast then drop into Half Moon bay. Park at the south end and walk 200yds to the fishing harbour and lots of places to eat.

There is also an airfield in Napa valley so you can also stop there, but from memory its quite a way to the nearest vineyard.

Tahoe is nice, but prices go up at weekends as thats when people drive up there to gamble. SO go in the week if you can and save on hotels.

Many FBOs have special rates at hotels and rental car companies so its worth asking. We saved about 40% and the FBO even ran us to the hotel.

I'm sure the rental company will want you to fly with an instructor. Depending on how many hours they require for your checkout, you may want to see if the instructor can come with you on the bay tour. Its a good introduction to the fast ATC, which can be a bit confusing for the first time on your own.

You'll have a great time

ZA

[n5296s]

You can have a lot of fun in the area here but I'd think several times about crossing the Sierra Nevada in a 172. In perfect conditions it can be beautiful (as long as you don't think too much about only having one engine). But you'll be flying through passes at that altitude, so the slightest wind is a no-go. I got into a rotor once (near LA) and that was quite an experience, and the winds weren't all THAT strong.

You can go into Tahoe without too much stress, you need to get up to 9500 or so although if you don't mind flying through passes you can do it lower. But again, more than 10 knots or so at altitude, don't do it.

Even without going to the mountains, there is plenty of spectacular flying. The coastline is beautiful, from MRY you can go south along the Big Sur, or north up past the Golden Gate and further to Point Reyes and beyond. You can even cross the bridge and overfly San Francisco without talking to anyone, which always amazes people. But if you're confident about your radio technique then transitioning the Class B is a real hoot, flying overhead SFO is another thing most visitors would never imagine to be possible.

n5296s (based at Palo Alto)

[Cusco]

If you have no mountain experience forget Tahoe: If the FBO thinks you want to go there he won't rent to you.

Even at relatively low altitudes of Columbia disasters can happen.

Stick around Monterey area: You can do the bay tour, nip over to Napa (Tho' I think the strip at Calistoga is now closed)

Half Moon Bay's nice but it's the first to get clobbered by the fog.

Consider to the south Paso Robles, San Luis Obispo, Agua Dulce and nip into Harris Ranch for a Burger.

Better still carry on south from there to Van Nuys and land on the famous 16 R.

But don't attempt the mountains.

Enjoy

Cusco:ok::ok:

[Zulu Alpha]

Columbia is only 2000 ft elevation so fairly easy. It can be gusty, but its a big tarmac strip, just be careful as you would anywhere new for the first time. It is a lovely place to visit.

I agree about Half moon bay and the sea fog, so just be prepared with an alternative.

I believe Calistoga was closed to powered visitors some time ago and just has gliders. It may have now closed. There are several other airports in Napa valley, but unless you are staying overnight then you won't be able to taste the wines which is probably the only reason for landing there.

If you do go south then fly down the coast and as well as San Luis Obispo there is also Santa Barbara. All the places with San in their name were originally missions established by the Mexicans, so many have old historic centres. Santa Barbara is very nice but a few miles from the airport to downtown

Your FBO will brief you if you ask on all these places

ZA

[slatch]

May is one of the best months to fly in Northern California, The rain has stopped and the weather is usually very nice but it has not warmed up too much in the central valley. Like others pointed out do not be afraid of the Class B airspace over SFO. The Northern California Tracon controllers are very good about bay tours. If you pick the right time of day they will let you go right up the bay at 3000 ft. At busier times you stay over to the west of the bay and after SFO airport turn back to the bay. You can always fly over the Golden Gate Bridge at 1500 feet then head toward Alcatraz and then turn north over the San Pablo bay and never talk to NCT. Depending on your tastes there are a lot of airports you can visit. I have flown my 150hp C172 into TVL and TRK many times. Like others pointed out the best days are the calm ones. But if you have no mountain flying experiance it probably not the best idea unless the weather is perfect. Columbia (O22) is probably one of the most popular fly in airports. It is a short walk to the Old Mining town which has a few resturants and a good Ice Cream Parlor. It can be a little tricky to find the first time but is a nice airport with a good runway. Harris Ranch (3O8) is a nice stop for a meal or to spend the night in the Inn. But it can be tricky if there is a crosswind, 2800ftX30ft. PM me if you have questions about different airports or airspace.

[Speedbird715]

Wow, thanks a million for all the great advice - my notebook starts filling up with places to visit! :ok:

Sounds like it may be a good idea to actually do two trips, one to the north for Half Moon Bay, SFO, Columbia etc and one to the south for Santa Barbara.

I honestly can't imagine flying north-south through SFO class B at 3000'. Is there a better way to block incoming traffic for 28L/R??? I guess controllers here in Europe would just burst into maniac laughter if you came up with that request. That's the beauty of flying in the U.S. I guess :)

I'll scrap the idea of crossing the Sierra Nevada though - I don't want to compromise the safety of the people flying with me. 110 flt hrs without any major mounains is propably not the right experience level to start with :}

But Tahoe... hmm... don't want to disregard it entirely. Climbing to 95 to clear the mountains and descending into an airport at 62 doesn't sound that hair-raising to me. With quite a long runway, T/O performance should also be acceptable in the morning hours. Maybe I'll ask the FBO for advice, provided the weather is severe clear - I hope they won't run and hide the keys if I mention the name Lake Tahoe.

But if I'm being stupid here, please tell me!

And another thing: Are there any good places to fly into north of SFO on the pacific coast?


Thanks again, guys!!!!!

Holger

[david viewing]

The coastal route from Monterey up to SFO is glorious and crossing the Golden Gate at 1500' is one of those experiences that will stay with you for life.

http://www.viewing.com/arizona/SFO/DSCF0449%20(Small).JPG

The route consists mostly of tall cliffs with few beaches or flat bits for forced landing so the issue of lifejackets and liferaft come to mind. In my experience many US FBO's are unfamiliar with these items.

An alternative just as spectacular is to get an instructor to go with you out to Catalina Island, preferably for an overnight in Avalon. The humming birds at the airport Cafe make the trip worthwhile in their own right.

http://www.viewing.com/arizona/SFO/DSCF0517%20(Small).JPG

All the points about crossing the mountains are well meant and correct. The Sierras are more intimidating than the Rockies in many ways. The crossing from Mammoth Lake to Sacramento involves at least 30 miles of completely unlandable terrain up to at least 10,000 or so and while I've done it in great comfort solo in a 160HP 172, I would not be so relaxed about taking passengers.

http://www.viewing.com/arizona/SFO/DSCF0427%20(Small).JPG

But people do do it and has been said the magic ingredient is nil wind and perhaps even more important at the crack of dawn with the coolest, stillest air. You can satisfy yourself en route that you get to and maintain 12,000' at similar temps with your actual load and if you can do that the plane doesn't know it's over the Sierras. (You might: think Hypoxia!).

It's a very long descent down into Bishop, CA., on the other side!

However I seriously doubt your FBO will encourage this plan, this trip. The thing about flying in the US is that it is cumulative and what you do today is the foundation for what you do next year and the year after that. Don't expect to do it all first time out.

PS don't do what I did and check into a hotel in Monterey harbour only to find that the aquarium next door was closed! A small consolation was that breakfasting on the terrace of a resturant just around the coast the waiter asked "Did you come to see the whales?". I hadn't, but there they were, just offshore.

[Wycombe]

I did the "Bay Tour" out of Palo Alto a few years back now in a 172 - up the coast from Half Moon Bay, over the Golden Gate, Alcatraz and right across the mid-point of the 4 runways at KSFO at about 3000' from N to S.

Yes, the radio was fast & busy, but perfectly ok if you listen out and respond in a manner that suggests you know what you're doing :ok:

[n5296s]

I honestly can't imagine flying north-south through SFO class B at 3000'. Is there a better way to block incoming traffic for 28L/R???
If you mess it up, sure. Please don't do that though, as it could make life difficult for the rest of us who fly here all the time. If you request a "Bayshore Transition" then you will be directed to fly normally at either 1500' or 2000', "South and West of the Bayshore Freeway", which means you keep the airport (and 101 which is the boundary) off to your right if heading north, left if heading south. That way you're out of the way of arrivals on 28L/R. Most departures use 1L/R, but if they have something leaving off 28L/R - invariably a heavy in normal winds - they may give you a deviation, generally to fly over mid-field.

You do need good radio technique. Sometimes it can be hard even getting in on the radio, especially from the north where you are dealing with the position for all SFO departures. Be clear, brisk, to the point, no errr, no hesitation, and listen up, no say agains either. Any of that on your first call and you can be pretty sure of "remain clear of Class B". In which case you can either fly over Oakland (Class C so they can't refuse, in theory at least although it does happen) or out to the coast.

Or not. Yesterday I was flying south and a Cathay 747 was cleared for takeoff on 28L. I could see that we would arrive at much the same point at about the same time. Finally SFO Tower said "traffic at 11 o'clock, heavy 747, deviation left authorised if required". Phew. So we just flew over the 10 numbers and the 747 passed under us and off to the right and 14 hours of flying to Hong Kong.

You most definitely do not get that at Heathrow.

n5296s

[dont overfil]

Three years ago I rented in Palm Springs and flew up the west side of the Sierra Nevadas to Mariposa. Here we picked up a rental car and drove about 30 miles to Yosemite. The scenery is breathtaking. I'll never forget it.
On that route we needed 9500ft fo terrain clearance.
DO

[crispey]

http://www.liveatc.net/

If you want to get a feel for the RT over there have a listen on the above.You don't have to register and there's always a link open somewhere in the US. SFO Approach and others are usually open as is LAX.PSP,PHX and a few more out west.Remember the 8 hour time shift!

You can also get the 162mhz 24 hr weather re-transmitted on Wundergrounds web site.Sorry I don't have the URL to hand-oops,I do.it's below .They have some good systems out there.

http://www.wunderground.com/wxradio/index.html

[Speedbird715]

Guys, you're really creating a challenge here regarding the bay tour. Seems worth the hassle, after all...

If you request a "Bayshore Transition" then you will be directed to fly normally at either 1500' or 2000', "South and West of the Bayshore Freeway", which means you keep the airport (and 101 which is the boundary) off to your right if heading north, left if heading south.
n5296s, may you could be so kind as to help me on this one. Let's say I'm approaching from the south. I would sneak into the bay area via the very western edge of the valley at 3000' or so, initially avoiding San Jose airspace. When nearing 20nm from KSFO I'd give them a call like... "NorCal App, Cessna N...., type Skyhawk, VFR, now 5 miles south of Palo Alto, requesting Bayshore Transition through the Bravo Airspace."
If succesfull at avoiding to sound like a regular drug user, I'd expect a descent to 2000' and would follow the 101 northbound all the way to city center and beyond.

Can life be that easy? Or am I talking B/S here?


The thing about flying in the US is that it is cumulative and what you do today is the foundation for what you do next year and the year after that.
David, cheers for a very good point - I guess I'm a bit too excited on all the possibilities and just want to do it all at once first time. Wise men know that the mountains will still be there in a few years ;)

Why do you need an instructor for Catalina Island? I've heard that's quite a nice trip, too.


Oh and thanks for the ATC links, crispey. For those who don't know, www.skyvector.com has all the charts for the area :ok:


Cheers
Holger

[crispey]

Holger

They do seem very accomodating about flying over big airports.I flew right over the top of KSAN at something like 3000',can't remember exactly it was so bumpy!I only did the one flight, so borrowed an instructor but I got an FAA licence the day before,and R/T too,just in case.It was straightforward enough to do that.Nice prices too for hiring.But it was a while ago.

I'd love to fly over Sausalito,just north of the Golden Gate Bridge.A favourite place of ours, and up to Napa or Sonoma County.

[n5296s]

n5296s, may you could be so kind as to help me on this one. Let's say I'm approaching from the south. I would sneak into the bay area via the very western edge of the valley at 3000' or so, initially avoiding San Jose airspace. When nearing 20nm from KSFO I'd give them a call like... "NorCal App, Cessna N...., type Skyhawk, VFR, now 5 miles south of Palo Alto, requesting Bayshore Transition through the Bravo Airspace."
If succesfull at avoiding to sound like a regular drug user, I'd expect a descent to 2000' and would follow the 101 northbound all the way to city center and beyond.

Can life be that easy? Or am I talking B/S here?

It is indeed that easy. The only thing missing from your call is a destination. You could add "destination Santa Rosa", say, or "Bay Tour returning to Monterey", or "Bay Tour returning to Monterey via coast".

If you are at 3000' and talk to Norcal, they will most likely keep you high (3000 or 3500) and you will talk to Norcal all the time, unless you request lower. Alternatively you can go lower and follow 280, avoiding the Class Ds for Moffett (NUQ) and PAO, then call San Carlos (SQL) on 119.0 to move over to 101. They will give you a squawk and then hand you over to SFO on 120.5 when you are already fairly close in. If SFO is busy you may have to make a 360 or two waiting for clearance into the Class B. It's easy to stay clear visually since the Class B surface zone is exactly aligned with the San Mateo bridge. It's a lot easier to do it with Norcal, all things considered, but more fun to do it lower.

In the reverse direction, call Norcal on 120.9 between the Golden Gate bridge and Alcatatraz and request from them. They'll hand you over to SFO. Just once they've had me climb to 3500' (there was a JAL departure and I guess whoever was on the position at SFO didn't want to handle the potential conflict, although normally they are fine with it) and then I stayed with Norcal on another freq.

Easy and fun. Just make sure your radio technique is up to professional standard.

n5296s

[Jimmy Macintosh]

I spent two weeks just flying all over NorCal with another ppruner, it was an absolutely excellent experience.

We flew in May/June as well.

The big thing about the mountains, most times you need to be crossing them first thing in the morning, otherwise the turbulence gets very rough. We flew out to Bass lake, got half way there and decided it was more prudent to turn around (in line with Fresno)

Highly recommend flying over Alcatraz.

A trip to Santa Barbara is also highly recommended, we overnighted there, two of the runways point straight out to the Pacific, the others parallel the coast. You could probably overfly neverland...

Chico was worth going to for the Burger and to see the Firefighting aircraft also it was past Beale Airforce base home of the U2.

Castle Museum is excellent with a HUGE runway.

Have to second Harris Ranch, small, narrow up hill runway but a great feed. Easy to find follow the I5 south.

A great little town was Calaveras in the mountains, only a couple of thousand feet up, we walked into town which was essentially an old west town, wooden sidewalks, swinging doors on the saloon, active blacksmith very cool.

If you have the stamina a flight upto see mount Shasta (past Reading).

[Cusco]

Why do you need an instructor for Catalina Island? I've heard that's quite a nice trip, too.

Catalina Island which is off LA has a relatively short (and pretty cr@ppy surfaced) runway up on a table to the NE.

It slopes uphill and has steep drops around the sea approaches.

So not only do you get ferocious downdrafts in certain wind directions you also get the visual illusions of slope.

Not to mention the fog /marine layer.........

So yes, most FBOs will insist on a Catalina check out with an instructor.

Just like for Big Bear and other challenging airfields ; they want to get their a/c back in one piece...............

Try one of Catalina's famous Buffalo Burgers

Cusco

[david viewing]

This pic of "The airport in the Sky" may help put what Cusco's saying into perspective: (But don't be put off going there: it's a deeply memorable place, so close to LA and yet so far).

http://www.viewing.com/arizona/Catalina/DSCF0479%20(Small).JPG

[Speedbird715]

Let me just shout a biiig THANKS! to all who've taken time to reply. Thanks to you guys I now have a list of 13 places (ranging from Catalina in the south to Mt Shasta in the very north), with at least 4 of them recommended for local cuisine :ok: And that's a lot of inside knowledge more than 4 weeks in advance... I see one heck of a good trip!

I'll now have to do some map studying and include as many places as possible. Pics will be posted here of course after returning ;)

David, for some reason I've just seen your attached pics for the first time - stunning shots!

n5296s, thanks for the advice! I'm highly tempted by the 'low route' via San Carlos. I'll try the afternoon hours for this brave endavour - If you read about a lost Skyhawk in the papers, stranded right on the runway croassroads at KSFO, well, you know who that was...


Cheers
Holger

[Henry Hallam]

Definitely check out Big Bear, it's a lot of fun and not really that challenging in a 172SP, I flew in in one last week. You definitely notice the thin air on climbout but we had 3 POB, full fuel and it didn't feel too scary.