Cardiff CAS and VFR depts?

[gone_fishing]

First I must clear something up. I'm not officially even a Student PPL (at the moment), though I hope to start properly in 9 months time. At the current moment I'm more concentrating on the ground school aspect and do the odd flights (maybe once a month) here and there.

Anyway, awhile ago now I was departing EGFF, VFR routing to Wenvoe VRP via the published departure. On being handed off to LARS (126.625), I was given "G-SY, hello, FIS, no altitude restriction."

I turned to my FI, and asked how high we wanted to go initially. He replied that we might aswell go up to 3500'. I immeiadetly queried this as going that high, for our current position, would have meant we'd bust the CTA by 500'. He said that we were given "no altitude restriction" and so could enter anyway. It's true that I never remeber hearing "remain clear of CAS" at any point like we normally would. And why would a controller say "no altitude restriction" when we're OCAS unless he was basically saying we could enter? It doesn't matter what they'd like to restrict us to, we're OCAS.

However. I've tried searching CAP413 to any type of reference similar to this, and there is none in the context this was used. So my questions are:

1. Is this an official procedure / standard, or is this an unofficial, mutual agreement between ATCOs and pilots?

2. If it is unofficial, and there was the extremely rare occurence that we had an AIRPROX or collision with an aircraft. Would the ATCOs take any responsibility at all for it (even though final responsibility rests with the PIC)?

3. Does this official / unofficial clearace through CAS, only hold true to CAS at an altitude? I know that most of the time they just say "no altitude restriction" when they mean any level. Yet, officially "altitude" is just that, only a reference on QNH. So I'm assuming we couldn't climb above the TA in CAS with this type of instruction. Is that correct?

We did climb up to 3500', and were Mode C Alt reporting the entire time. Not once did we get told by LARS we had bust the CTA. And as far as I'm aware my flying school never got a letter from the CAA. :E

[bookworm]

You started off within the Cardiff CTR, on a clearance given to you by Cardiff Tower. It's perfectly reasonable to expect modifications of that clearance (such as "no altitude restriction") to come from Cardiff Approach or Radar. I wouldn't regard being below the floor of the CTA for a short while on a straight line route as making any significant difference, unless your exit from controlled airspace was explicitly noted by Cardiff.

Bit surprised to hear "no altitude restriction" though, given the overlying airway. Above what level is the airspace controlled by London?

[gone_fishing]

The clearance by Tower was to leave the CTR. We were never given an explicit clearance to re-enter any CAS - just "no altitude restriction". AFAIK - the airways intersecting over and near Cardiff (N864, N862, N90, L9) belong to Cardiff between certain intersections from SFC - 165.

[GunkyTom]

Just an idea bearing in mind I am not familiar with the airspace but is the base of the CAS mentioned a flight level? Taking into account the transitional altitude maybe it was semantics as above a certain level, you would be at a flight level not an altitude. If the controller said 'no LEVEL restriction' then you would be free to fly at any height/level/altitude as LEVEL is a generic term.

Also, if you had left CAS then you would need a Clearance to enter again.Saying no alt restriction isn't a clearance to enter CAS, it implies to me that you can fly below or outside CAS at any level.Personally, I would have qualified it with a not above restriction if CAS was above but don't know the situation at Cardiff

[gone_fishing]

Yes. That's why I brought up my third question. Is it only an altitude within CAS we can go? The CTA part 4 (the bit we went into), is 3000-105. So my question was, is he only clearing us within CAS upto 6000' (the TA) or was he using "altitude" incorrectly as a generic term, instead of level?

EDIT in response to the above edit:

Well, really saying "no altitude XXXX" OCAS, I would consider incorrect. It's implying the controller can imply an altitude restriction, which he can't. But you still have to remain OCAS. They normally say just that "Remain clear of CAS". But as I said, they didn't today. My FI said that it was perfectly fine to go into the CTA because of that. And as I said - we were never told we busted it. Also, another club aircraft was given the same thing, and they climb above us! So if it's incorrect - NATS seriously need to issue a written notice to local based pilots and let them know - and tell their ATCOs at FF to stop using non-standard RTF (again, if it is incorrect) because it's caused some confusion - atleast on my part. :P

[1985]

Ring the tower and ask. I'm sure that they'll be happy to help.

[GunkyTom]

Well, really saying "no altitude XXXX" OCAS, I would consider incorrect. It's implying the controller can imply an altitude restriction, which he can't.

Although not pertinent to the posted situation ,a controller can impose an altitude restriction or even instruct you to maintain a level or not above/not below xxxx outside CAS. If you are receiving a radar adv service then those are the conditions you have to accept. If you can't comply, then I would downgrade you to RIS or even FIS. You mention FIS in your post. Certainly all the airports I have worked at DO NOT give a FIS inside CAS. As I said, I am not familiar with FF airspace but in any CAT D that I have worked in, it is a radar control service inside and RAS/RIS/FIS outside. The type of service you quote (FIS) implies to me that you were outside CAS and the controller had no restrictions to place on you as long as you remained outside, either vertically or laterally. It is just possible that if he/she had traffic to affect, he may have asked you to 'report before flying above xxxx due traffic' RE. no report of a level bust. As you were on a FIS, the controller probably wasn't watching that closely because he doesn't have even ident you to provide that. I would go along with 1985's advice and call or have a visit and ask the question. ATC are generally a friendly lot and the kettle normally has just boiled :D

[gone_fishing]

Ummm, I'm sorry I don't quite understand your post fully. FIS is an ATSOCAS, however if he was saying that we could enter ("no altitude"), when outside it would be a FIS - that's if he was saying we could enter. Secondly, AFAIK, you cannot be given a RAS as VFR (which we were) as any radar vectoring or level restrictions might place you in IMC...

EDIT: Also, he should have had us on SSR with alt readout as we were given a sqk from Tower (which is obtained from Radar). And we were Mode C Altitude reporting the entire time.

[GunkyTom]

A FIS is not only available outside CAS. If I was working an air rally inside CAS, I would probably give a FIS. A RAS is available outside regardless of met conditions (IMC/VMC), however you accepting it means you must fly IFR. The controller is taking responsibility for separation between you and other known a/c, however if you cannot comply because you can only fly VFR then it is not for you.As you are new to this then I'm guessing you only fly VFR , when you have built up more hours and experience, there may be times when you are flying VFR in VMC and if the wx drops, you may then request, if you are suitably qualified a RAS flying IFR. This also means that inside your CAT D airspace, you could fly SVFR or IFR. It can be confusing .You seem to have the gist of it but it is not as black and white as you imply. See if you can access the MATS pt 1 . If you can't , google it, it is available online free.There is plenty about this sort of thing, especially the airspace and ATS services

[Spitoon]

[Pedant mode on]

A FIS (along with an Alerting service) are the two basic services that you get from any controller any time. In addition, you might get another air traffic service - such as RIS/RAS, Aerodrome control, Approach control etc.

[Pedant mode off]

[gone_fishing]

Yup, I have access to CAP493 MATS pt1, 493 and all the other CAPs on the CAA website.:}

What I'm trying to say however, is that his instruction didn't make sense. This is the thing, "no altitude restriction" is not clear. He cannot give us a level restriction OCAS in Class G open FIR, as we were under VFR. So one could assume he was saying, you can enter CAS at your discretion, but not above the TA. Yet this would be unofficial - as it's not any type of solid clearance. Also, he didn't say "Remain clear of CAS" as they normally do, this would work in favour of a unofficial clearance. We weren't under a SVFR or IFR clearance. We're being given a FIS (which, I correctly accept as a service also in CAS, but in the case of Cardiff - really only given OCAS).

[SACrIGGER]

I think the big clue here is the word ASSUME!

If unsure go back and check.

[gone_fishing]

Just taking a quick look at your locations "SACrIGGER", do you work FF? If so, could you possibly give me any clues?

[SACrIGGER]

Sorry, I can't help, I do work at FF, but am a loley trainee, and would be very embarrassed if any information I gave out later turned out to be incorrect.

If you have a genuine question, get your flying instructor to ring the tower and clarify to procedures.

As a side non Cardiff specific, I would never enter CAS without having a full and formal clearance, e.g. GABCD cld to enter blah blah .

[gone_fishing]

I agree, and if I had been solo, then I'd have played the safe game and stayed well clear. Then no one can label you a level buster. But my FI was quite sure he was in the safe doing so. I think I'll ring them myself to get an answer - I don't wish to ask my FI as he is the boss of the club and I'd rather not show that I doubted his actions were correct when I could get the same answer, but doing so myself.

[GunkyTom]

OK, we are going round in circles and the best thing to do is to contact Cardiff for the definitive answer. However

What I'm trying to say however, is that his instruction didn't make sense. This is the thing, "no altitude restriction" is not clear. He cannot give us a level restriction OCAS in Class G open FIR, as we were under VFR. So one could assume he was saying, you can enter CAS at your discretion, but not above the TA. Yet this would be unofficial - as it's not any type of solid clearance. Also, he didn't say "Remain clear of CAS" as they normally do, this would work in favour of a unofficial clearance.


The instruction,as reported, makes sense to me. He confirmed no alt restriction, didn't impose one. He never gave permission to re enter CAS from Cat G thereforeyou were not cleared to enter either in the climb or via the boundary. It might have been prudent for him to tell you to Remain outside.... but not absolutely necessary. Lastly never ASSUME, it will make an ASS of U and ME. If unsure ,ask. The reason I say this is that the situation has at best been confusing for you but at worst could have been disasterous had an incident been caused by you entering CAS without permission. If the radar had failed, ATC should still know ALL a/c inside CAS and be able to control procedurally. This all goes out the window if there are unknowns in the equation. Maybe FF have something in their MATS pt 2 to cover this situation so I would ask them.

Sorry, I am rubbish at typing and see that I have duplicated some posts ahead of this one-will try harder

[seasaw]

Agree with Tom. no level restriction is NOT a clearance to enter CAS.

Example.

Traffic leaving CAS at 3A against traffic inside CAS at 2A. You leave the zone below an airway which has a base of FL35.

Once outside CAS the Radar service is terminated (possibly any traffic given) and you are perfectly entitled to no longer maintain 3A. The controller advises you no longer need to continue with any level restriction given in your initial clearance.

This is NOT a clearance to enter the airway or turn around and re enter the CAS from which you have departed.

[sr562]

Were you given a clearance to leave the zone not above an altitude, say 1500 or 2000ft and had not left the zone when transfered to LARS? This being the case the controller would have been cancelling the altitude restriction in the initial clearance, possibly as he had no IFR traffic to affect at that time.

[gone_fishing]

We were given 1500' - yup. So quite possibly me and my FI just busted the Cardiff CTA? :ugh:

[GunkyTom]

First and foremost, well done for asking the question. There are probably many more ppl's out there who will have learned something from this,not to mention ATC who may revise their instruction when talking to club a/c.

It is a little more clear now.If you were given 1500'- to leave , then the 'no alt rest. must have referred to the FIR. ie no rest. other than remaining outside CAS laterally/vertically. Instructors can and do make mistakes. I can quote many an occasion when an instructor misinterprets a rule or restriction and unfortunately it is only when it gets messy and follow up action is taken that it comes to light. It sounds as if you have a good understanding of procedures. If you are concerned about any ATC instruction, you can always ask -or prefix c/s with 'student' which should alert ATC to the potential problem. You may occasionally hear exasperation in a controllers voice as we can be a moody lot but that is better than the alternative!!!

[egffztzx]

Gone Fishing,

See your PMs.


Steve

[NOTRO]

"A FIS is not only available outside CAS. If I was working an air rally inside CAS, I would probably give a FIS."

As Spitoon correctly said, you get an Alerting Service and a FIS inside CAS regardless. But inside CAS (A-D) you must also be under a Control Service (Aerodrome, Approach, Area.....). You must have permission to enter Class A-D airspace and must operate in accordance with ATC instructions, hence a 'control service'. You can't get just a FIS inside CAS (A-D).

The clearance may be very specific - i.e. fly a specific heading at a specific level - or it may be very unrestricitve - i.e. no track and/or level restrictions.

Notro

[GunkyTom]

NOTRO has put what I meant more succinctly. I was trying to say that a FIS isn't only for outside CAS , it is also one of the basic services provided inside- sorry if any confusion caused