KLM can't find new HYD; India?

[quartic]

"KLM pilot can't place new Hyderabad airport", from The Times of India. Hours after HYD opened a KLM flight from Europe diverted to Delhi as the pilot of the KLM had no Notam about the closing of Hyderabad Begumpet (HYD) and the opening of Hyderabad Shamshabadad (HYD), says The Times. On arriving Delhi the aircraft was refused landing clearance and so diverted to Mumbai were it landed without any problems, according to reports. Good choice on fuel Captain! Must have been a very busy flight deck.

Report ends that KLM were 'profusely apologetic'.

All the above is from the 'press'; no first-hand knowledge but as a regular to India thought it of some interest. Good to see another much needed new airport facility in India.

Happened to me many many years ago when a first officer with a start up airline. A new airfield opened and only after take-off did we realise that we were off to the 'new' airport. No charts, no NOTAM, no nothing. But CAVOK, no traffic and we knew the area well. Unlike Hyderabad when the KLM diverted where there is always a lot of traffic and weather was reported as marginal. Not too long ago though that I arrived in China to find a new parallel runway was open that was not on any of our Jepps! Of course it had to be the one in use and we were not the only ones asking for the ILS frequency and go-around procedure.

[a convict]

..'Dawn' is usually pretty close to mark.

http://www.dawn.com/2008/03/24/rss.htm#9

[B777FD]

So am I correct in thinking that VOHY/HYD is now closed and the new airport VOHS/HYD is now open?

Not much info around on this one! :ugh:

[mutt]

Not much info around on this one!Lots of information available.

Mutt

[fendant]

Just out of curiosity, when is the new (BLR) Bangalore airport scheduled to open ?

Frank

[B777FD]

mutt

Thanks for that. Could you point me in the right direction? Can't see anything in NOTAMS.

Cheers

FD

[kingair9]

Just out of curiosity, when is the new (BLR) Bangalore airport scheduled to open ?


Plan was:

07 Mar: First Test Flights by Deccan and potentially Kingfisher
28 Mar: Official Opening by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh
30 Mar: First Scheduled Flights

This has now been delayed by approx 30-45 days. There are various reasons available in the papers and different forums - ranging from ATC technical problems via shortage of ATCOs to infrastuctural problems ("oops, we need a road to the airport? should have told us..."). Which reason is true I cannot say.

Hope this anwers your question.

[EatMyShorts!]

Nothing on the NOTAMs!

VOHY HYDERABAD

A0373/08 - PRKG STAND NR 1 NOT AVBL DUE MAINT WORK. 19 MAR 12:00 2008 UNTIL 24 MAR 23:59
2008 ESTIMATED. CREATED: 19 MAR 12:19 2008
A0369/08 - PARKG STAND NR.5, 5A, 5B, AND 6 TO 9 DECLARED POWER
IN PUSH BACK STANDS. 18 MAR 10:20 2008 UNTIL 30 MAR 23:59 2008. CREATED: 18
MAR 11:02 2008
A0368/08 - BIRD ACTIVITY OBSERVED IN THE VICINITY OF AERODROME. 18 MAR 10:20 2008 UNTIL
30 MAR 23:59 2008. CREATED: 18 MAR 10:57 2008
A0364/08 - RWY 27/09 NOT AVBL FOR OPS DUE MAINT WORK. EV TUE 0800-1000, 18 MAR 08:00 2008
UNTIL 25 MAR 10:00 2008. CREATED: 18 MAR 04:58 2008
A0346/08 - WIND PANEL U/S. 13 MAR 23:55 2008 UNTIL 13 MAY 12:30 2008 ESTIMATED. CREATED:
14 MAR 04:44 2008
A0499/07 - MED INTENSITY AVIATION OBST LIGHT INSTL ON THE TOP OF MAHENDRA
HILLS 172716N0783133E ELEV 2046 FT. 13 APR 11:00 2007 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 13
APR 12:56 2007
A0080/07 - THE FLW NEW PAVEMENTS ARE COMMISSIONED FOR ACFT OPS.
1. NEW APRON ADJOINING THE MAIN APRON ON THE WEST SIDE, SIZE 126M X
48M CONCRETE SFC, PCN 61/R/B/W/T PROVIDED WITH RELEVANT APRON
MARKINGS AND FLOOD-LIT MARKED FOR PWR-IN, PWR-OUT PRKG OF THREE ATR
72 TYPE OF ACFT WITH EAST-WEST ORIENTATION. PRKG STAND NR 10A,10B
AND10C ARE DEPENDENT BAYS TO BE OCCUPIED IN THAT SEQUENCE.
2. NEW APRON ADJOINING THE MAIN APRON ON THE EAST SIDE, SIZE 155M X
41M CONCRETE SFC, PCN 61/R/B/W/T PROVIDED WITH RELEVANT MARKINGS
AND FLOOD-LIT MARKED FOR PWR-IN, PUSHBACK PRKG OF ONE A320 TYPE OF
ACFT WITH NORTH-SOUTH ORIENTATION. PRKG STAND NR 1A.
WITH THIS ADDITION THE TOTAL SIZE OF MAIN APRON BECOMES 637M X 156
PS 149M/2. 17 JAN 12:40 2007 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 17 JAN 13:36 2007
A0711/06 - THE FOLLOWING NEW PAVEMENTS ARE COMMISSIONED FOR ACFT
OPS
1. NEW TWY J STARTING FM ISOLATION BAY BAY NO 20, TR
320 DEG/140 DEG, LEN 335M,INCLUDING TURN PAD OF SIZE 116M X
45.6M AT THE END, WIDTH 18M.PROVIDED WITH 5 M SHOULDERS ON
ALL SIDES, ASPHALT SURFACE OVER CONCRETE PCN 24/F/A/X/T
PROVIDED WITH TWY CL MARKINGS, TWY EDGE MARKINGS, TURN
PAD MARKINGS AND TWY EDGE LGT. BAY NO 21 MARKED ON THE
TWY J AT 180M FROM ISOLATION BAY.
2. NEW TWY H CONNECTING TWY J AND NEW APN NEAR NRSA
HANGAR AT A DIST OF 120M NW OF ISOLATION BAY, TRACK 030 DEG/
210DEG,LEN 56M,WIDTH 18M, PROVIDED WITH 5M SHOULDERS ON
BOTH SIDES, ASPHALT SURFACE, PCN 24/F/A/X/T. PROVIDED WITH TWY
CL MARKINGS, TWY EDGE MARKINGS, AND TWY EDGE LGT.
3.NEW APN NEAR NRSA HANGAR, SIZE 162.5M X 90.7M, ASPHALT SURFACE
PCN 24/F/A/X/T. PROVIDED WITH 5M SHOULDER ON ALL SIDES. PROVIDED
WITH RELEVANT APN MARKINGS AND FLOOD-HIT. MARKED TO ACCOMMODATE
FOUR A320 TYP FOR POWER-IN, PUSHBACK-START OPS.
ACFT STAND NOS:22,23,24 AND 25. 25 MAY 13:30 2006 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 25 MAY
15:07 2006
G0033/08 - REFER G0031/08 AND AIP SUPPLEMENT 03/2008.
HYDERABAD ATC WILL CLEAR ALL ARRIVALS AND DEPARTURES TO/FROM
HYDERABAD(BEGUMPET) WITH REFERENCE TO HYDERABAD VOR(HHY,
114.7 MHZ). 18 MAR 12:00 2008 UNTIL 18 APR 12:00 2008 ESTIMATED. CREATED:
19 MAR 12:56 2008
G0025/08 - NEW R/T CALL SIGN FOR ATS UNIT AT EXISTING HYDERABAD AIRPORT
IS AS FOLLOWS:
ATS UNIT R/T CALL SIGN
TWR BEGUMPET TOWER. 15 MAR 18:00 2008 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 05
MAR 13:03 2008

VOHS RAJIV GHANDI INTL AP

G0036/08 - REFER AIP SUPPLEMENT NO:24/2008?ILS RWY09? AND 25/2008?ILS
RWY27?-R.G.I.AIRPORT SHAMSHABAD?HYDERABAD?
THE ABOVE PROCEDURES ARE EFFECTIVE FROM 0803221831UTC. 22 MAR 18:31 2008 UNTIL
PERM. CREATED: 21 MAR 09:21 2008
G0034/08 - REFER G-SERIES NOTAM G0031/08.AIP SUPPLEMENT 10/2008 IS EFFECTIVE
FROM 0803221831. H-24, 20 MAR 10:30 2008 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 20 MAR 10:55 2008
G0028/08 - REFER AIP SUPPLEMENT NO.03/2008,10/2008,13/2008,14/2008,
15/2008,18/2008 AND 19/2008-RAJIV GANDHI INTERNATIONAL
AIRPORT,SHAMSHABAD,HYDERABAD.

HYDERABAD APPROACH AND HYDERABAD CONTROL WILL CONTINUE TO
WORK ON 132.4 MHZ AND 118.3 MHZ RESPECTIVELY UNTIL FURTHER
NOTICE.ALTERNATE FREQ OF HYDERABAD CONTROL IS 129.7 MHZ. H-24, 15 MAR 17:30
2008 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 12 MAR 10:31 2008
G0027/08 - REFER AIP SUPPLEMENT NO.18/2008 REGARDING VOR PROCEDURE
RWY 09-RGI AIRPORT,SHAMSHABAD.
1) THE SUPPLEMENT SHALL BE IMPLEMENTED W.E.F. 0803151800
2) THE FOLLOWING OPERATING MINIMA SHALL BE APPLICABLE FOR
THE PROCEDURE.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
AERODROME CATEGORY A CATEGORY B CATEGORY C CATEGORY D
OPERATING (VISB) (VISB) (VISB) (VISB)
MINIMA
-------------------------------------------------------------------
ALS ALS ALS ALS ALS ALS ALS ALS
OUT OUT OUT OUT
-------------------------------------------------------------------
NORMAL MINIMA
1600 2400 1600 2400 2000 2800 2800 3600
STRAIGHT-IN
-------------------------------------------------------------------
RESTRICTED
MINIMA
2000 2800 2000 2800 2400 3200 3200 4000
STRAIGHT-IN
-------------------------------------------------------------------
NORMAL CIRCLING 3600 3600 4000 4400
MINIMA
-------------------------------------------------------------------
RESTRICTED
CIRCLING
3600 3600 4400 4800
MINIMA
------------------------------------------------------------------.
15 MAR 18:00 2008 UNTIL PERM. CREATED: 07 MAR 12:19 2008

G0026/08 - REFER AIP SUPPLEMENT NO.19/2008 REGARDING VOR PROCEDURE
RWY 27-RGI AIRPORT,SHAMSHABAD.
1) THE SUPPLEMENT SHALL BE IMPLEMENTED W.E.F. 0803151800
2) THE FOLLOWING OPERATING MINIMA SHALL BE APPLICABLE FOR
THE PROCEDURE.
AERODROME CATEGORY A CATEGORY B CATEGORY C CATEGORY D
OPERATING (VISB) (VISB) (VISB) (VISB)
MINIMA
-------------------------------------------------------------------
ALS ALS ALS ALS ALS ALS ALS ALS
OUT OUT OUT OUT
-------------------------------------------------------------------
NORMAL MINIMA
1600 2400 1600 2400 2000 2800 2400 3200
STRAIGHT-IN
------------------------------------------------------------------
RESTRICTED
MINIMA
2000 2800 2000 2800 2400 3200 2800 3600
STRAIGHT-IN
------------------------------------------------------------------
NORMAL CIRCLING 3600 3600 4000 4400
MINIMA
-------------------------------------------------------------------
RESTRICTED
CIRCLING
3600 3600 4400 4800
MINIMA
------------------------------------------------------------------. 15 MAR 18:00 2008 UNTIL PERM.

CREATED: 07 MAR 12:19 2008

EDIT: Formatting

[kingair9]

Espacially funny as it states explicitly the OLD airport VOHY:


Nothing on the NOTAMs!


Quote:
VOHY HYDERABAD

[mutt]

Actually FD, we acecepted a kind invitation to tour the airport last month, we sent a team to review the facilities etc, since then we have received about 100 telexes detailing every single event happening with the airport.

Didnt YOUR airline review the airport prior to operations?

Mutt

[B777FD]

I saw those NOTAMs, I couldn't specifically read that VOHY has ceased all operations which was my question. I don't recieve AIP updates so I guess I'll wait for Jepp updates.

Thanks for you kind help.

[kingair9]

On arriving Delhi the aircraft was refused landing clearance and so diverted to Mumbai were it landed without any problems, according to reports.


Am I missing something or have I overread the reason why DEL as official alternate refused to take him?

[quartic]

So says the Times of India today!

All about EGPWS and false warnings because of the EGPWS data bases being out of date. Nothing new there as this seems to be case in the past with many new airports, new runways and recently extended runways. Happened at the then new Athens airport for many months. Let us hope pilots are not getting too used to turning off this bit of kit? The Times reports "Most Indian Pilots ignore the terrain nuisance warning but foreign pilot take note of them, which may explain the KLM decision to divert." Talking only about HYD one hopes.

As regards Delhi as alternate I believe they do not accept being filed as an alternate as they are 'maxed out'. They have a notice in the above paper today apologising in advance for delays to movements as work is finalised for the new runway, opening soon. They are also short of parking for large aircraft. Stand to be corrected if anyone has had Delhi accepted as an alternate at busy periods - middle of the night and middle of the day.

[Xeque]

Umm :confused: When flight crews check in at their operations centre before boarding the aircraft, do they not review the flight routing? In which case, why did he leave it so late before he realised he didn't know about the new airport? (I am assuming that a lack of approach plates was the real reason - Approach, Tower and Ground radio would have given him everything else he might have needed surely)

[Phileas Fogg]

Would they not have also checked the destination weather?

If VOHY was closed would VOHY have been doing weather observations and reports?

[WingletMD11]

So far the guessing.

Now for some facts:

- The crew filed to the new airport.
- There was no confusion regarding opening status of the new airport.
- The company has been closely monitoring the whole transition.
- There were several KLM teams who have visited the new airport the final months before it was opened, including a delegation of flight operations.
- The crew of KL873 made two approach attempts at the new airport.
- On both attempts they had insufficient visual reference to continue descent below descent limit so on both occassions a go-around was made.
- After the second go-around the crew decided to divert to Mumbai.

How should I know this? Maybe my username gives a hint......

[Xeque]

WingletMD11
If that's the case I'm surprised that KLM did not act immediately to deal with the story when it first broke in the Indian newspapers. It would have put a cap on the story immediately rather than let it run on to create the speculation that would obviously follow.

[fox niner]

Never never ever trust newspapers when they write about aviation.

[WingletMD11]

Xeque, indeed rather strange. However, they have made a statement in Dutch explaining that reason for diversion was purely weather related.

[C433]

The new airport at Bangalore is now scheduled to open on the 11th May.

[Brian Abraham]

From AVweb today. Rather than weather, does this seem more plausible? My bolding.

A mix-up over where to land led to a KLM crew extending its downwind leg a bit -- by about 1,500 miles. It seems the crew, which had launched from Amsterdam, was expecting to land at its usual destination near the city of Hyderabad, in the south of India, but that airport had been closed just hours before. A brand-new airport had opened nearby, but when controllers directed the crew to land there, they declined, saying they hadn't heard about any new airport and weren't authorized by their airline to go there. They flew on to Delhi, but were not allowed to land, so flew on to Mumbai (Bombay) where they finally set down, with their 233 passengers.

The new airport had delayed its opening by a week. Officials said all airlines had been notified.

[pasoundman]

Brian Abraham
The new airport had delayed its opening by a week. Officials said all airlines had been notified.

Sounds like a classic Indian cock-up to me. They are *dreadfully* incompetent.

[Mat Tongkang]

Incompetent flying dutchmen! Nothing to do with the Indians. Get off your freaking high horse and peddle your bigotry up where the sun doesn't shine!

[Otterman]

WingletMD11 stated clearly what happened. He seems to have firsthand knowledge (read between the lines). Don't quite understand how this thread is deteriorating into mudslinging based on false facts, and inferiority complexes.
:rolleyes::ugh::rolleyes::D

[Max Angle]

None too smart of the Indian authorities to use the same 3 letter code for the old and the new airport, asking for it really.

[RoyHudd]

No comment. All right then....chocolate teapot.

The country does have excellent cuisine, though.

[zed3]

This morning KLM had it sorted and filed a FPL for an MD11 from EHAM - ZZZZ

[autofeather]

KLM, the airline that produces its own A4 size terminal and approach plates that dont fit plate holders, the same plates that you cannot even get them in front of you to read because of the control column?

The very same approach plates that have out of date inaccurate obstacle heights published for EDI - surely they would never get it wrong 'tis not possihble' :=

[LLuke]

Guess you used an outdated version. Since > 10 years all approach plates are A5 size :E

Fail to see what EDI has to do with HYD?

[bluepilot]

KLM's sid/star/airfield information booklets are A4 size, totally impractical in a small flight deck, the approach plates are A5.

Autofeather is referring to a situation a few years ago when the ex klmuk pilots joined KLC, they had to transfer from aerad plates to KLM plates, when it was pointed out to KLM that the EDI plates were 10 years out of date re-terrain it was met with the typical KLM arrogant reply of "not possible". I bet bottom dollar that KLM do not admit any kind of failing with regard to the Indian airport. its just not the KLM way to ever admit they are wrong.

[LLuke]

Autofeather was talking a.o. about A4 approach plates, which don't exist.

Regarding incorrect (spot?) heights; you can simply submit a correction form. The Nav dept. will then look what is published in the relevant AIP and adjust it. It is obviously not a matter of right or wrong.

Regarding HYD, in general if there is an (operational) incident/accident, it will be investigated by SPL/OI. Only that department will sometimes provide a qualification. Blaming people is not its purpose. Examining processes for improvement, avoiding errors in the future, etc, is. It is only logical that other departments stay silent, since they don't have access to all facts. This is i.m.h.o. not "arrogant" or not willing to "ever admit they are wrong".

Sometimes silly managers do say things they shouldn't have (judge/qualify), but then there is our union which you may have heard of :)

Now I still fail to see what autofeathers post had to do with HYD.

[autofeather]

Now I still fail to see what autofeathers post had to do with HYD.

My post had everything to with the typical KLM attitude, which could have been part of the problem at HYD, something to which bluepilot refers to quite accurately and clearly From the tone of your post, you post in this forum in the same manner as your employer has clearly trained you to operate in the flight deck.

Regarding your comment about the 'KLM' method of correcting ‘incorrect spot heights’, of course the Nav department should be checking the relevant correct documents and correcting the plates before they are issued to be used in the flight deck. No way should they be relying on the fact that crews will avoid hitting everything on route/approach and then, when they get back to Flat Land, telling the NAV department to check it out!

Just what century do you think you are operating in LLuke?

BTW I was talking about terminal and approach plates and the latter still are delivered in an A4 folder, with much required information printed on the A4 folder and the content thereof - that is again totally impractical.

Bluepilot, KLM will never admit to doing anything wrong, as I said earlier ‘tis not posshible’ and you are right that is the way they operate. Will they ever learn?

[LLuke]

"From the tone of your post"

Sure blame your lack of knowledge and understanding on me?

Regarding the "spot heights", alternatively one could have written an ASR with mandatory reporting if you feel that safety was impaired.

Last time I am gonna say it: "APPROACH PLATES ARE A5 SIZED" They are printed per two on a A4 page, but you are allowed to fold them which makes it...and you know that, unless, ofcourse, you meant the arrival plates.

"Just what century do you think you are operating in LLuke? "

Haha, like I said earlier, almost like we are from different planets.

[pasoundman]

Mat Tongkang
Nothing to do with the Indians. Get off your freaking high horse and peddle your bigotry up where the sun doesn't shine!

My alleged 'bigotry' is based on EXPERIENCE. Far too much of it sadly. They are utterly useless.

[fokkerrules]

He autofeather,trouble spelling schiphol? Why not quit KLC? I am sure everybody would be happy to get rid of you. One cry baby less:{.

[pasoundman]

RoyHudd
The country does have excellent cuisine, though.

Have you actually eaten in India other than in a top hotel ? I can assure that the everyday food you'll find makes even English cuisine look good. OTOH, I've eaten some excellent Italian in Mumbai.

[airfoilmod]

KLM Chief Pilot, 1977, TENERIFE. If the Captains had exchanged seats, how different would it be: "I'm not landing at an airport I've never heard of". "I'm not taking off on a runway I cannot see."

[autofeather]

LLuke

This is turning into a slanging match which is not what I intended, I made the valid point (in my own mind) that KLM plates were, in my professional opinion, of no use and what is on (some) of them is/was 10 years out of date. When KLM were told the typical KLM ‘not possihble’ attitude was the response.

The plates ARE A4 size as you well know it, 2 plates printed on one page that can be folded in half and that, as you also seem to know, makes an A5 size. Proper plates are A5 size from the start, oh and of course, have the correct data on them – so there is a BIG difference.

The HYD incident could be related to the Nav department, it may not be, I don’t know.

He autofeather,trouble spelling schiphol? Why not quit KLC? I am sure everybody would be happy to get rid of you. One cry baby less

Hey fokkerrules;

1.No, its Flat Land
2.I never worked for KLC, I quit KLCuk.. long ago..
3. Maybe KLM were...
4. Im no cry baby, I stood up and fought our corner...

[Piltdown Man]

There is another option. Maybe the destination was below minima so they diverted and rather incredibly the press got it wrong? Just maybe...

PM

[bluepilot]

quote fokkerules:

Hey autofeather,trouble spelling schiphol? Why not quit KLC? I am sure everybody would be happy to get rid of you. One cry baby less

fokkers dont rule they went bust ;-)

A nice attitude for "harmonisation" then, would you like to expand on your discriminatory attitude fokkerules? want all the brits out do you?

[LLuke]

Hmm ja, ok, back to what happened in HYD :cool: Like the previous 40 messages I have no clue about what happened, but, ofcourse, feel free NOT to believe (me).

[seventhree]

"Never never ever trust newspapers when they write about aviation."

Please refer all questions back to this statement. It is absolutely correct and should always be the first point of reference.

[Long Haul]

Spoke to a KLM engineer in DEL who was in Hyderabad when the aircraft attempted it's approaches to the new airport. He told me exactly the same story that Winglet stated here, with the addition that the crew initially turned towards DEL, but then were requested by the company to proceed to BOM. They were never denied permission. You just can't trust what you read in the India Times.

[Mat Tongkang]

soundman...........so much for pommie competency at T5! :ugh::ugh:

[pasoundman]

Mat Tongkang
soundman...........so much for pommie competency at T5!

Who do you think the Indians learnt it from ?

[SLFguy]

"Hmm ja, ok, back to what happened in HYD Like the previous 40 messages I have no clue about what happened, but, ofcourse, feel free NOT to believe (me)."

Did you miss post no.16?