B737 lavatory fire fighting procedure.

[Crossunder]

According to the "new" Boeing 737 lavatory fire fighting procedure, the cabin crew have to get the crash axe from the flight deck, punch a hole in the door, and discharge the Halon extinguisher(s) through this hole.
They used to just open the door slightly ajar, and then shoot the Halon through the small door opening.
Boeing have not referred to any studies or povided any demo videos or guidelines for this new procedure. My questions/comments are:

1. Have all operators adopted this practise? Is it a requirement or just a recommendation?

2. I would love to see one of the skinny teenager CCs, who have never handled an axe in their entire short lives, expertly punch a perfect little hole for the extinguisher nozzle to fit in. And where exactly should one one use the axe? "Upper part of the door" is not very specific. Is one strike enough? Anyone accustomed to chopping wood can tell you that hitting the exact same spot twice with an axe is not that easy without preactise.

3. Would one have enough room to properly swing the axe in the narrow confines of the cabin?

4. How much time would be wasted on running past children, carts, passengers etc through a -800 cabin, call the cockpit, fetch the axe, plow ones way back through the cabin to punch a hole in the aft lavatory door?

5. What about the sliding doors? One poorly excecuted blow and the door flies wide open!

6. How much force does it take to hack through a lavatory door? Will a slight and "delicate" CC be able to do so?

7. What are the real dangers of opening the door just enough for the nozzle to be pushed in? Most likely, the fire comes from either the flusher motor or the waste bin (which has its own extinguisher anyway...). The aircraft leaks like a sieve anyway, so there will always be fresh oxygen entering the lav.

Any thoughts/opinions?

/XNDR

[joey1]

Hello Crossunder

Could you please post the wedsite where you found this info.

[despegue]

Warning:

DO NOT adopt this procedure.
I am a former Maritime Officer, responsible for fire-fighting onboard petrol/chemical tankers. I also come from a firefighting family.
It is a totally wrong thing to put a hole in the door of a burning confined area.
You simply destroy the fire barrier, leave a constant an actually major Oxygen stream to the fire and have the added risk of wielding an axe in a very confined area. Very bad idea, and any airline having/adopting this procedure should have their heads examined.

[Crossunder]

I didn´t find this on any web site. It came directly from Boeing, and their revision of philosophy. Our CCM had to be changed.

Boeing´s response:

An inflight fire at altitude needs to be dealt with not only immediately
but efficiently and effectively. The tactic to leave the door closed and
to use the crash axe to combat the fire is considered the best method to
minimize oxygen inflow and leakage of discharged halon. Even a small
opening of the door will introduce more oxygen at all levels of the lav
than a small hole, as well as allowing more discharged halon and smoke to
leak out. Since every fire is different, and it is possible for a crash
axe to force the door open, cabin crew should exercise judgment in
determining the best method of discharging halon into the lavatory.


...and what the heck do they mean by "excercise judgement"? So that some lawyer can use his/her perfect hindsight and sue your sorry azz? At least, both Boeing and company management would have their backs covered.
They still leave a lot of questions unanswered.

despegue: Do you agree with Boeing´s statement?

[despegue]

no, I do not.
The halon will not leak out when discharging, as there is positive pressure at that time, and any gap by the axe is permanent, thus a PERMANENT leak and oxygen stream. Boeing is simply wrong here.

[airtags]

what a load of illogical nonsense.

Let's assume the fire is in the LAV@ L2.....using this approach the cabin crew would need to:

[start stopwatch please]

1. Go to Flight Deck door
2. Call and gain access
3. Obtain crash axe
4. return to L2 (typically + 30 rows away)
[stop clock]
5. start fire drill .......actually don't worry about it's proabably too late now.

While cracking the door will introduce an ancillary airflow, discharging 1.5kg of Halon and closing the door will take the oxygen out of the fire equation and kill it/knock it down enough for secondary action to commence.

Most LAV fires will be in the waste bin where hopefully the temp sensor has triggered the waste bin xtinguisher which is a contained environment** -

If any of my CC were to bugger around trying get a crash axe from the flight deck rather than grabbing a BCF and killing the fire in the LAV down the back ........let's say I'd want to get the heaviest Boeing Manual I can find and bang it across their head.

** NOTE: Some LCC's including Virgin Blue 737's (where in the interests of saving money and not needing cleaners), the cabin crew line the bins with multiple heavy duty oversized plastic bags that can affect the discharge pattern of the fixed xtinguisher or the discharge of a BCF via the waste flap........(and of course add goodness knows how much toxic fumes into the mix while providing additional combustible material.)

Simply - if it's a fire - act fast

[Centaurus]

I recall from back in the Seventies, a hint by a cabin crew member and published in a British Airways publication. He said that during his cabin preflight inspection he always poured half a cupful of water into each waste disposal unit. The theory being if some idiot flicked a burning cigarette into the bin it was more than likely the water at the bottom would put it out. I copied that idea for many years.

Mind you, I made sure the crew did not see me do this, as after all, I was the captain and felt a bit stupid, guilty or maybe just a bit superstitious. But at the time it seemed cheap and efficient insurance.

[ozangel]

airtags -

As far as I am aware, that is not procedure at Virgin Blue.

The galley bins are often double lined - usually only the forward one - but occasionally the two aft ones prior to a terminating flight - makes your getaway a tad quicker.

Again, its not procedure.

As for the lav bins, these are very very rarely changed by cabin crew. Other than being inspected regularly for security checks, and tidied up/compressed for continued use, they are generally only changed by cleaners (usually on the daily full clean, or prior to a night flight). If they are changed by a willing crew member, it would only be if it was well and truly full - in which case I have never come across a double lined lav bin - theyre not changed enough to warrant it.

As for the size of the bags, well having worked at both Qantas and Virgin on the NG (where bins either take the standard rectangular shape or the weird semi-triangular shape) the bin liners used are the same size, only difference is the Virgin ones are blue, and the Qantas ones are white with qantas written in red on them - or occasionally your stock standard home use 20L bin liner.

Yes, they are a bit big for the bin itself, but if it put in correctly, (scrunching up one end of the exterior slack and knotting it, so that it forms a tort lining around the top, and the excess interior slack is minimised) it shouldnt be a problem.

As for the crash-axe procedure, it sounds a bit strange. Other than 'from the boeing website' quote, is there a link directly to this literature on the website?

You would waste a lot of time doing this, and should the smoke be bellowing from the sides of the door - especially if its the LAV at L1, I cant say I would be opening the FD door to get the axe, potentially exposing them to the dangers on the other side.

[lowerlobe]

A cup of water is a good one and is a cheap form of insurance.It is not fool proof but when walking around on long night sectors I would pour a small paper cup of water into the waste unit.

The idea was to dampen the used hand towels already in the waste disposal just in case some dope put a cig butt into the same disposal.

As far as fighting a fire is concerned I agree with despegue and believe that fighting the fire is the first priority not trying to get to the flight deck,gain access and get back to the fire with a crash axe.

By all means after you have another crew member acting as a communicator with the flight deck as you fight the fire then you can ask for the crash axe but only to lever panels open so you can get to areas that might be causing the fire if it is an electrical problem.

To put a small but permanent hole in the area where a possible fire is seems a bit daft.Check the door first with the back of your hand as it may be just smoke in the initial stages but fight the fire first as time is critical.

[blow.n.gasket]

Access the flight deck to obtain the crash axe. RIGHT!
Obviously never heard of September 11 and what happed then!
Do these new procedures comply with the new security procedures introduced world wide post 9/11, I doubt it!

Then again ,one good wallop with a crash axe and the whole toot door would cave in, I would hazard a guess, then what sort of a fire barrier have you got!
Standby for a backdown/amendment/face saving exercise to follow I would say at a rough guess! :ooh:

[Crossunder]

Right. I suppose it´s the Boeing Army of Lawyers that´s behind these new procedures..? Somewhat strange that (seemingly) no one else have heard about this, or implemented it?

One of our cabin crew members used to work as a smoke diver and is not very pleased with the new SOPs.

Other than 'from the boeing website' quote, is there a link directly to this literature on the website?
It´s taken from Boeing´s reply to our company´s inquiry about the new procedure. I do not think you will find it on their web site. Obviously, I cannot start posting the internal communication between Boeing and my company on this web site, but suffice to say that our Cabin Crew Manual - “lavatory fire-hot door" - emergency checklist had to be amended due to a Boeing requirement. We, the pilots, did not know about this until someone "accidentally" flipped through the CCM.

Check with your cabin crew the next time you go flying. It is a Boeing requirement, so their CCM is most likely revised, or in the process of being revised.

[Blip]

All the B737's I fly have very well ventilated lavatories with their own air outlets so I don't know why they think cracking the doors open to give it a blast of BCF will be any worse than a small hole as far as oxygen supply to the fire is concerned.

But another point I would like to make is that the basics of firefighting I thought was that you had to spray the extinguishing agent at the base of the fire i.e. the point where the flames were emanating. Simply discharging the BCF agent into the general area is hardly going to make any difference.

I can understand the concept of using the door as a barrier between you and the flames but is that not assuming that the whole area is ablaze? For a nascent fire surely the best thing to do is to get in there (with smoke hood on and all exposed skin covered) (and not allow the door to close behind you) and get at the base of that fire!

Otherwise the fire will simply grow out of control in a short period of time.

Remember that confined space IS well ventilated and any attempt at fire suppression (rather than fire extinguishing) will be short lived.

[urok]

I feel we're all agreed that this is completely ludicras, but I feel something else is being missed...

1) what indications of fire/smoke are we getting to go punching holes in a bog door? without being able to verify it, we're fighting a rather large and important unknown...

2) if one were to go punching holes in doors and discharging the bcf over a flashing amber, I dare say the poor old dude having a smoke on the toilet is going to be rather dead once we're done with him... Now im all about near-killing anyone who smokes on an aircraft possibly near-killing me, but yeah... might be a slight over-reaction, and a hard one to explain to his missus....

Food for thought!

[IGh]

Seems this thread is mostly about FLIGHT ATTENDANT response to a "hidden" fire, with the misleading smoke-stream suggesting a Lav' fire.

Many investigations have attempted to address this case.

For pilots there are a few points they should be taught:
-- the biggest risk of an inflight fire is eventual LOSS of AIRCRAFT CONTROL;
-- The Outflow Valves are mostly BELOW the Cabin Floor, while the HOT SMOKE will accumulate near the Ceiling-Crown then downward;
-- Keep PACKS ON, don't be tempted to switch-Off Packs in an effort to "starve the fire" (that loss of airflow prevents any exhaust of the HOT SMOKE, which will become the most flammable substance in your cabin: SMOKE BURNS!);
-- Just land, the F/A's won't really "know" the source of their "hidden" fire.

This point about TRAINING the F/A's goes back decades, and has never been properly addressed. There are many cases/lessons (pilot never seem interested in details so I won't post any extensive review).

Here's some of the REC's after the Safety Board's investigation of AC797:

= = = \/ = = = Excerpt = = = \/ = = =

FOR FLIGHT ATTENDANTS TO RECOGNIZE THE URGENCY OF INFORMING FLIGHTCREWS OF THE LOCATION, SOURCE, AND SEVERITY OF ANY FIRE OR SMOKE WITHIN THE CABIN. - FOR BOTH FLIGHTCREWS AND FLIGHT ATTENDANTS TO BE KNOWLEDGABLE OF THE PROPER METHODS OF AGGRESSIVELY ATTACKING A CABIN FIRE BY INCLUDING HANDS-ON-TRAINING IN THE DONNING OF PROTECTIVE BREATHING EQUIPMENT, THE USE OF THE FIRE AX TO GAIN ACCESS TO THE SOURCE OF THE FIRE THROUGH INTERIOR PANELS WHICH CAN BE PENETRATED WITHOUT RISK TO ESSENTIAL AIRCRAFT COMPONENTS, AND THE DISCHARGE OF AN APPROPRIATE HAND FIRE EXTINGUISHER ON AN ACTUAL FIRE.
Rec #: A-84-077
NTSB Status: Closed - Unacceptable Action
Issue date: 7/12/1984
Accident Date: 6/2/1983
Source Event: ACCIDENT
Location: CINCINNATI Ohio Mode: AVIATION