logging hours as PIC (S)

[Icanseeclearly]

just a quick question....

I recently started my first airline job and am wondering how to log the hours (I am ex military so it is slightly different)

Can I log the sectors that i am handling pilot as PIC (S) ? or does all my flying have to be logged as Co-pilot or indeed dual?

Many thanks from a confused ex crab

[Permanent Standby]

If you handling pilot you log it as PICUS, if you are non handling you are P2.

Remember its chock to chock time not what we're used to!

Regards

PS

[Wyle E Coyote]

I can't agree with that.

PICUS/ICUS/Cmm'd Practice (etc, depending on your book) is for training - 'performing all the duties of the pilot in command, under the supervision of the PIC' or words to that extent, essentially left seat training for upgrades.

You're dual until you get the rating (except the US where you never get one - never understood that one)

otherwise you're F/O, handling, monitoring or otherwise

....or maybe you boys do it differently over there:)

[parabellum]

In the UK: Employed as an FO, rostered as an FO, sitting in the RHS when the pilot flying you can log it as P1(US). When the captain is the PF then you are P2. Dual would normally be training prior to endorsement.

From the inside of a CAA log book:
"P1 (U/S) Co-pilot acting as pilot-in-command under the supervision of the Pilot-in-command" - doesn't have to be a training captain.
Hope this helps.

[Icanseeclearly]

Thanks guys, will remember to log chocks to chocks - adds at least 20 mins from the airfields I fly from!!

[mad_jock]

I canseeclearly I would check with your flight ops what the company procedure is.

The logging of PICUS is a bit of a contensious issue with some companys.
Some don't care and you can log PICUS whenever you are PF others say you have to be with a line trainer or some other ball ache procedure. Some Captains if you ask them to sign the remarks will go balistic and get a strop on, others will sign anything.

The argument goes that you need an approval from the CAA and have SOP's in place for you to fully take on the duty's of the captain under supervision. The companys who have bothered to get this approval are the only ones that care about it. Everyone else just log PICUS when PF.

Infact if you have enough PIC time for ATPL issue or you already have one its not worth the hassel. Just log everything as Co-pilot. PICUS hours really don't mean much after ATPL issue. You can't claim them as command hours when applying for other jobs. They are really only an advantage for low houred direct out of college starts who need the 400hours of PIC for ATPL issue.

[Agaricus bisporus]

P1U/S is NOTHING TO DO WITH who is handling the aircraft.

It has nothing to do specifically with Line Trainers. It has nothing to do with "Company Approval" - there is no such thing. It is an agreement between the Captain and his FO, and is a privilege of the a/c Captain to grant, whoever he is. Whether or not the Company chooses to recognise it is a different matter.

This topic has been done to death here several times before, the search function is your friend!

"Performing all the duties of the Captain" includes includes conducting the pre flight briefing, making all fuel and wx decisions, and managing the flight/duty throughout without significant screw-up. It therefore cannot be (honestly) logged without discussion with the Captain before the pre-flight briefing even starts (you are, after all, asking him to let you run the day, and for him to act as P2 under your management). It might extend over just one sector, or just those you fly, or over an entire multi sector duty, depending on what was agreed pre-briefing.

It is downright impertinent for an FO who has sat there doing nothing other than P2 duties to ask for a signature at the end of the day without it being discussed in advance. It is supposed to be practice at making all command decisions throughout a flight, after all...

If it is being done correctly, that is.

[mad_jock]

Can't disagree with any of that. They have updated lasors Appendix B to section A with a much better description.

I think the approval bit comes from

PICUS (Pilot-in-command under supervision):
Provided that the method of supervision is acceptable
to the Authority.

And it does state

d. throughout the flight he carried out all the duties
and functions of pilot-in-command and conducted
the take-off and the landing;

Personally I had all my PIC time doing trial flights/lessons VFR and never went near PICUS and its multiple standards expected.

As you can see from the above post there are some very set views on PICUS from don't care to downright impertinent for an FO best ask before even thinking about it, and if you don't need it don't bother.

[Wyle E Coyote]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FOD200224.PDF

man, this is getting messy now.

So according to UK CAA we have the commander logging PIC as required by ICAO (and remember the PIC cannot change while the aircraft is airbourne)

The FO logging PIC when the commander allows it or is having a rest (even though the comander is also logging PIC.....some how we have two PsIC)

The SO logging PIC for the same reasons, even though in most airlines he's the 'cruise relief pilot' and doesn't touch the controls below 10,000ft - yet is still logging PIC:confused:.....as well as the commander! what's the FO logging? PICUS? Co?

The FO logging PICUS when ever he feels like it, including when under the supervision of the SO! (what's the Co-pilot column for?, and how can the SO be an appropriate supervisor?)

The SO logging PICUS for the same reasons, including when under the supervision of the FO (what's the FO logging? PIC i'd assume, as well as the capt?)

Someone please tell me this info is wrong.

Surely the Captain logs PIC, FO logs Co, unless hes being trainied for an upgrade - meaning he logs PICUS, and the capt is an approved trainng capt. SO logs Co time for the time he occupies a seat. An SO can never log PIC, and neither can an FO unless he's been upgraded. PIC means IN COMMAND, there can only be one.

[Denti]

The original JAA definition of PICUS time is

(5) PICUS (Pilot-in-command under
supervision)
Provided that the method of supervision
is acceptable to the Authority, a co-pilot may
log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS, when
all of the duties and functions of PIC on that
flight were carried out, such that the
intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety
was not required.

In the UK apparently it is acceptable to the authority that every FO can log PICUS anytime his captain agrees.

In most other JAR countries that is only possible in a specially approved training scheme such as the supervision and training you receive when you get promoted to captain/PIC.

[Wyle E Coyote]

In most other JAR countries that is only possible in a specially approved training scheme such as the supervision and training you receive when you get promoted to captain/PIC


I'd ammend that to say "in most other countries" You UK guys clearly do things differently over there.

You only log PICUS when you're in the left seat. The PIC dosn't sit in the right seat - ever, unless he's a training captain, and is trainng the guy in the left seat to command - thus the PICUS/ICUS/Cmm'd practice column.

Right seat equals Co-pilot. there's a column in the log book especially for you. use it :ugh:

[despegue]

No way that in Belgium you can log PICUS without a special authorisation of the authorities and company when you are FO.

[mad_jock]

In the UK apparently it is acceptable to the authority that every FO can log PICUS anytime his captain agrees

The Captain's mostly don't even know its been logged.

The CAA will accept log books without the PICUS entry's being signed. Most folk just get a letter from ops stating all hours are correct. And you send it off with your log books and thats it.

Its only been recently that you had to tell the TRE at your LPC that it was being used for ATPL issue. Other countries its a completly seperate sim check with a CAA staff examiner.

Mind you it might all change with move of FCL to Europe. I am glad I have jumped through all the hoops, it could get quite interesting next year.

[Clandestino]

In JAAland, one has to have 250 hrs of pilot-in command time included in herhis 1500 TT to get hisher ATPL. Also in JAAland, you can get into RHS of transport category airplane with barely 100 hrs of PiC time. That's where PiCUS time comes into play. It's sole purpose is to provide ATPL candidates with required hours while flying as co-pilots. If you have 250 hrs command, even on light singles (not micro-light, though) you don't need a minute of PICUS.

I don't know about UK CAA, but my local one credits all military flying you have logged towards the issue of civilian ratings - sometimes guys leaving the airforce need just a couple of theorethical exams and a check ride to get their CPLs.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Jock, there are some very set views because there are some very set rules, as quoted by Denti. There cannot be any misunderstanding about what that perfectly clear quote says - its black and white. (unless you're Wylie Coyote of course, who seems to see something extra about seats in it...), and asking a Capt to put his signature and licence No against something that has not been done properly is requesting him to commit Professional fraud on your behalf. I call that impertinent, or worse.

If, as someone else said, the Capt doesn't even know it is being logged and as the UK CAA appear to accept P1u/s without a signature it begins to look like a pointless exercise anyway. When I was an FO it was an opportunity to practice command skills under supervision in day to day ops, and occasionally if you cocked something up the Capt would decline a signature at the debrief. It was a useful exercise when done properly. And believe me the line Capts did take it seriously.

Shame it's been allowed to dilute into pointlessness.

[Wyle E Coyote]

Shame it's been allowed to dilute into pointlessness


Sounds like you guys should just get rid of the co-pilot column all together, as it appears to not have much use anymore.

[mad_jock]

I quite agree it would be very good training.

And if it was compulsory for all pilots to require the 250hours as PIC to be PICUS I could see some point to it.

But there are alot of us that never required it. Our PIC box was ticked as flying instructors. And as much as is learned by being a vfr flying instructor not alot of it is directly transferable to being a Captain on a multicrew IFR commercial aircraft.

It really doesn't bother me if the FO's are logging PICUS without my knowledge. I certainly have never signed a logbook and there are at least 2 FO's who have gain there ATPL's in the last 6 months with no signatures.

Does it really effect safety, not really. They might have a green book, they haven't passed a command command course and it would be very rare if they became a DEC on the strength of having a green book although in th TP world its not unheard of. The companys where it is a issue have that long to command the Pilot is going to have far in excess of the min requirments before they even get a sniff of a chance.

[empati]

If you have the JAA ATPL and the type rating, but fly as copilot for XX airline , I presume you can't logg PIC or commander time? (Unless you are in captain training) True?

Met a CAA inspector who claimed otherwise..:hmm:

[Max Angle]

It actually doesn't matter very much anyway, everybody knows that P1US is not the same thing as P1 and when it comes to changing jobs most airlines will ask for your hours as the "company designated pilot-in-command" which most certainly does not include any time spent as P1US. It's basically meaningless as far as I can see so if FOs want to log it to make them feel better who cares.