Pacific Blue about to park aircraft

[NoN1]

Pacific Blue is in the unenviable situation of being on the verge of cancelling flights due to a lack of Cabin Crew and/or Tech Crew. The Office Workers (I won't call them Managers as that would be unfair to those people who have a Management qualification or some ability in the role) have created a situation where attrition has now outstripped supply far beyond the general Pilot shortage. The fact the attrition rate of both Tech and Cabin crew is threatening PB shows a systematic problem.

Sadly, it has taken many senior pilots to remove themselves to other jobs, for the Office Workers to begin to look in the mirror. Amazingly, they have only just begun to recognise how badly they have stuffed things up (by their own admission). The head Office Worker, a temporary CEO with no prior CEO experience, appointed from VB when the first choice pulled out at the last minute, is woefully out of touch with the workforce. When he does try and 'engage' a member of front line staff he is universally distrusted and disliked.

Can anyone expand on the timeframe and consequences of having the Office Workers steadily destroying a potentially great little outfit?

Sad but true...

[greenslopes]

Well thank goodness it has finally come to this. Perhaps now conditions will change for the better. Unfortunatly you may well have to suffer more discomfort before certain people(wake up &) smell the coffee.
From observing many other airlines(Rex springs to mind) P.B will need to be allmost disfunctional before real steps are taken.:ugh:
Personally I would just move and save myself the stress, as there are quite a few operators(even in the Pacific) who realize the true worth of the individual.
Good Luck and don't let the Turkeys get you down!

[time4change]

The head office worker made a comment "we dont need experience we can get cheap labour out of china" Need i say more ?

[Redstone]

As a wise man once said to me; "the bean counters know the cost of everything....... and the VALUE of nothing"

Motivated, skilled and experienced staff, at all levels, are an asset not a liability. This has been hashed and rehashed in these forums before, I know, but just when will the penny drop? There is now talk of "Ultra Low Cost Carriers" what is going to be the procedure there? The pax decide amongst themselves who is going to fuel it, load it, clean it, pre flight it, fly it and fix it? :ugh:

[NoN1]

PB just had a Birthday bash in Christchurch. Christchurch being the main base, you would think there would be a descent turn out. A total of three (3) pilots (non-management) turned up. How many red flags do you need!

[VH-Cheer Up]

All their other pilots were obviously flying!

[priapism]

Great post redstone.

[The Hill]

the tribe has spoken...wake up PB, pay your pilots what there worth and stop charging for endos!!!

[blueloo]

Well at least they invited the pilots to their party - last big Qantas party, they forgot to invite a couple of groups who may have seen the value - the pilots and engineers! (after all these groups may have contributed a little to the airline over the last 85odd yrs)....... ahwell they did invite Johnny T and whoever does that inflight Q show. Nows thats important.

[Taildragger67]

I am 40 years old. I would like to be a pilot. If someone will (subject to my successfully passing the requisite exams, getting an ATPL and showing that I'm competent at handling the heavy metal) pay for my training from ab-initio (ok, I have 11 hours) - and I'm not even asking to be paid a salary during that time - and then agrees to pay me a realistic salary at the end of it, I will happily change careers. Even my wife would be happy for me to not earn anything for a couple of years, but she's not so happy about not having anything coming in, AND racking up more debt, AND having no guarantee about anything decent at the other end.

I'm reasonably bright (3 degrees (including a Masters) and MENSA membership), fit for my age (I run a 4h29m marathon and looking to improve that this year), good sight (tested last week) and clearly very interested in aviation (which is why I am on PPRuNe). From now, I have 25 years to ICAO retirement age.

The fact that airlines were sacking people and closing cadet schemes when I left school still dogs me.

My point is that the training regime is almost exclusively slanted to youngsters - you either get on the ladder straight out of school, or forget it. Hence the industry is cutting itself off from a vast number of potentially excellent pilot candidates. I would be happy to have a pay-back bond (ie. we'll pay you well, but leave within 5 years and you pay us back). Indeed, us oldies have generally sorted out sh!t into only one pile and are more likely to be very solid contributors for the full 20-25 years; we won't train up, get jaded at 45 and nick off to open a pub.

And before comparisons with other industries are trotted out - I did my law degrees part-time, they were not expensive and I could work in a related industry at the same time for realistic money, in Australia there is HECS-HELP for academic studies (but not for flying). I am not saying that competence should be dumbed-down - more that there are people other than spotty 17 year olds who'd like to fly, but like you 'managers', we may have houses and kids we need to pay for. A trainee lawyer (and I know several in late-30s/early-40s) goes back to zero, but it's for two years and the cash is still pretty good. And after the two years' training, the earning potential goes exponential and it's not unreasonable to look at a partnership within 10 years or so.

But there are lots of us and we could solve your crewing problems in a reasonably short time...

[haughtney1]

Taildragger, wash your mouth out young man! you be speak da common sense......you have a lot to learn...common sense hath NO place in airline management :ugh:

[Taildragger67]

Haughtney,

young man

:ok:

Thank you!

I owe you a beer or three!

[flyingtake2]

Taildragger....my god some one speaks sense for once.

Same boat, 37 years have a degree in commerce, fit etc and have 200 plus hours and would love to get into aviation.....but also have a life to support..............happy to take a pay cut for acouple of years if the program you mention comes into play.

lets not hold our breathes heh!!!

[Kangaroo Court]

Life is made of choices gentlemen. None of you are victims of your time, you could have chosen not to get married, pursued Mensa memberships or got yourselves financially leveraged as you burdened yourselves with other responsibilities.

It is not the job of an employer to pay for you to become a doctor, a lawyer or a teacher, but once you are one; you are payed for advancement studies by same.

That is to say that somebody who pursues employment and undertakes a responsibility that should've been borne by the employer in the first place, (ie: a type-rating that is only good on one aircraft), cannot sincerely call themselves a professional. Indeed, it is more akin to graft.

Pacific Blue has chosen to go down a failed path of lack of respect for the professionalism of the majority of the pilot population who refuse to engage in such folly.

Your life's choices are your own and are not the fault of changing times, demographics or personal expectations, nor are they the fault of this industry.

[Taildragger67]

KC,

Don't get me wrong - I'm happy with the choices I've made. If I had chosen flying straight out of school, I would not have met my wife, would not have travelled (personal account) as I have, studied what I have, and so on.

What I am saying, is that right now, if I won the lottery, I'd take up flying.

Also, that there seems to be a limited pool of talent which some users of that talent, are finding hard to get.

Other professions/vocations etc. are finding similar problems and so are making structural changes across the board to tap an older pool of candidates; law is one.

If it gets bad enough, carriers will have to rely less on self-funded kiddies and make it worthwhile for us longer-toothed; if they don't have to go down that road, then it's clearly not that bad.

But I am happy with my life and the choices I've made. :ok:

[time4change]

I think we loosing the point here chaps, the fact is we choose to be pilots and some of us chose to work for PB (silly us not for much longer) and they have changed our work conditions and never bothered talking to us, we have no voice, If your thinking of joining PB DONT,. untill more aircraft are parked the Office workers wont listen. When they do it may become a airline worth working for but while these idiots can put a bandage on the problems and tell each other how well they are doing nothing will change.

[PA31 pilot]

Any truth to the rumor that PB is getting Embraers to fly out here in little old NZ?

Just heard that might be the case (from the grapevine) so its probably not true, but non the less, a good rumor!:cool:

[Biggles747]

The hole management has dug for themselves just gets deeper. Another 2 training captains have resigned this month and because of the way training captains have been abused by the roster system, and then only for a part time job, no one is interested in replacing them. Even when the realization is made that the crew need to be employed the company is talking about forming a separate company to employ them. All this demonstrates is a lack of commitment to the New Zealand market as the only benefit would be the ability to close the crewing company down without affecting the airline.
Don't go anywhere near PB until this is all sorted is the only advise I can give anyone considering it.

[cjam]

Taildragger, Kangaroo Court got it right, you either do it or you don't do it. It's up to you. When I left my well paid job to pursue flying I knew that about 15% of new CPL's were getting work within six months of qualifying so I decided to do whatever it took it be in the top 10% of everything I did with regard flying. Exam results, driving around Aus looking for jobs, effort put in etc, I just went as hard as I could. It has a price and effects every other part of your life cause there is only so much energy to be allocated. I'm now a jet F/o , not working too hard and getting paid well, was it worth it?....debatable, I say yes but others around me are still astounded by the sacafices that were made. Make a D and either do it or don't, you'll be competing against some very determined people but there are a lot of jobs around now so it should be ok, maybe you'll only have to live out bush on powdered milk for six months instead of 30. PS, don't tell em you're a mensa member....... steadiness and reliability are more important than sky high IQ's when it comes to getting the job done safely.
Hope you do it, it is really a good job, (not PB....just the job in general) cheers.

[HF3000]

If the Aust/NZ expats came back home there wouldn't be a pilot shortage here. Trouble is good pilots keep leaving because of the way several airlines here treat them with contempt. You can "train" as many as you like, but I think "retain" is a word the Office Workers need to get into their vocabulary.

[burty]

Rule number one. Think about anything a Kiwi says, then discount it!

Rule number two, Look around and wonder why you know so many white people, who heppin to come from New Zealand?


Probably because there are so many Austalians running things over here. Yea. :ugh:

[Chocks Away]

Probably because there are so many Australians running things over here.
Not @ PB... all Kiwis there, who put it in it's current predicament.

[time4change]

PB is so desperate they have given one guy PB conditions and a brisbane base and another a wellington base. Hmmm when is aircraft number 6 going to be parked? But the office workers still have jobs, I wouldnt put any of PB management in charge of a pop corn machine, and these office workers run a airline?

[Cloud Cutter]

Rishworth are advertising for F/Os, 1000 hours total time :eek:

[time4change]

Yep a mate of mine was going to join I told him go to Jet Connect untill pb is run as an airline

[hoggsnortrupert]

Are you sure, Faqnell, if so I would be a very worried share holder, and employee, won't last long in todays day and age if this is for real?

Sinking Sinking Sinking::ok:

Chr's
H/Snort

[horserun]

Here it is from the Rishworth website!

Total flight time: 1000+ hrs Multi engine hours: 500 + hrs Total time in ATO's: 100 + hrs Total instrument time: 100 + hrs Total night flight time: 25 + hrs


If PB had better T&Cs they wouldnt have to aim at such low time drivers.

Come on PB sort your sh*t out!!

[time4change]

that is scarey link operators require more than that

[haughtney1]

Experience isn't the issue here.....money is.

The rates they are offering are rubbish :ugh:

[Cypher]

that is scarey link operators require more than that

Ummm, have you seen what people have been getting into the Link operators with?!?!?!?!?! (EAG and Air NSN)

[Yusef Danet]

Watch for VB pilots flying PB ops, just as QF mainline 737 drivers are called on to fill JetConnect seats.

[KRUSTY 34]

Quote:

"Watch for VB pilots flying PB ops, just as QF mainline 737 drivers are called on to fill JetConnect seats."

Wouldn't that be like robbing from Peter to Pay Paul?

[Kangaroo Court]

Still, they'd have to be paid mainline T&Cs; so the pilot's objectives and aeronautical standards are both being met.

[Yusef Danet]

It wouldn't be the most economic way of running, but rather than park a plane, using VB pilots deferring their leave for A$1000 per day (minimum for 737 capts) would work. And since the surge in recruiting and upgrades VB doesn't seem too short of drivers these days. At least on the 737. At least until anyone leaves for the 777.

[time4change]

would vb pilots be scabs for flying for pb since pb piloys going for a new contract and better conditions?

[NG Dude]

Wouldnt be a smart idea to call Virgin Blue pilots flying Virgin aircraft in NZ on secondment the S word.

[Yusef Danet]

No, t4c, I don't believe it would. It may have the effect of showing that if you pay a decent wage and provide adequate conditions you don't have dramas just getting your planes into the air.

I would like to see the NZ based operations paid as well as the Aus based operations, such as Jetstar do. Even if they were same numbers in NZ dollars, it would be a vast improvement and still very cost effective.

[greenslopes]

Talking to a few of the VB pilots, you'd be hard pressed finding any that don't want to see the P.B guys & Gals absorbed into the VB fold and paid a decent wage with decent condtions. No need to stir the pot re: to scab or not to scab.

[time4change]

well they would be Virgin pilots Flying Pacific blue aircraft actually

[horserun]

I hear today the PB are setting up a Wellington base.
Any truth to it??

[KRUSTY 34]

Quote:

"It wouldn't be the most economic way of running, but rather than park a plane, using VB pilots deferring their leave for A$1000 per day (minimum for 737 capts) would work. And since the surge in recruiting and upgrades VB doesn't seem too short of drivers these days. At least on the 737. At least until anyone leaves for the 777. "

DJ drivers are covered under a fatigue management system, but are still restricted to 900 flight hours a year. These pilots are currently flying near max hours, so any talk of a secondment would only serve to restrict DJ's own operation, assuming of course enough DJ drivers would be willing to spend 24/7 in the cockpit. Considering their current roster, it would be a brave pencil d!ck doing the asking. Not to mention the fact that DJ's own expansion hasn't even begun yet! You may get a PB aircraft or 2 into the air for a very limited time, but it would be no more than a flag waving exercise. The reality is, there continues to be a serious shortage of airline pilots everywhere! Any threat of moving one group to another is simply more management spin. DEC's, Spin. Cadets, Spin. We'll just get DJ drivers to come over and do the job, F#rking spin!

Reality is staring these characters in the face, and they still fail to acknowledge it. Pay your crews what they are worth or face ruin.

The arrogance/idiocy is breathtaking!

[time4change]

spoke to a friend today who works for an Aero Club and the issues they face sad thing is The aeroclub management sounds a lot more professional than the idiots that run PB. Guess what they actually talk to there staff odd I know but it seems to work.

[puma pants]

The head office worker (JB) did the same thing at Ansett NZ. His side kick (SA) was the chief "YES" man a little while later. All the underling office workers were there too. All saying yes then too!!
I will think of you PB guys and girls at the Split Enz concert on Sunday night when they play "History Never Repeats".

[Knurled Knob]

The suggestion that it is OK for VB pilots to come over to PB to ' help out ' demonstrates the short sighted, hypocrisy that is at the core of whats wrong with oz / nz aviation.

May I remind all those VB pilots that screamed blue murder and threatend the PB pilot group with being labeled scabs etc etc, when PB got their Australian AOC and rumours circulated that PB may operate on some domestic routes in Australia.

Now the boot is on the other foot and its all ok and somehow different. Wake up to yourselves. Yes we at PB accepted very average t&c's initially with the promise of better things once the airline got up and running. Well four years latter we are still getting crapped on by the fools running the show.

I would ask our collegues at VB to just once look beyond the promise of serviced apartment, hire cars and a well paid holiday to NZ for the ski season and help out the guys at PB by NOT even entertaining the thought.
Help us pilots and crew at PB make these self proclaimed leaders of aviation in NZ feel some heat and sort out the rot. The only way to get through to JB and his team is to make their life difficult. I would love to be a fly on the wall when JB is trying to explain to BG why he has had to park a/c and cancell services because most of the training dept has left. (Who is going to train these 1000 hr fo's that rishworth are hiring)

The Nz CAA also need a kick in the ring, in 4 years at PB I never had a single ramp check!! How can they sit back as the experience and standards plumet at PB. They owe it to the travelling public to get involved.
Remember the Ansett Dash 8 at Palmy. Its the same management team!!!!
History may indeed repeat itself.. I hope not..................:sad:

[Dunnybudgee]

All my own views of course but...

VB pilots fixing the roster for PB, are you joking? From what I'm told VB can barely crew their own flights and are hiring... Jetstar, Tiger, Eastern, Rex... the same etc etc etc. Guys when are you gonna get the message. There are effectively NO SPARE DECENT 737 NG PILOTS AROUND!!! :D

"Oh no sonny take the low pay or we'll, we'll, we'll.... um - get them from China" WRONG, short of crew there, the locals all bonded forever and most couldn't pass the English test (or maybe even the base check! :}). Or persuade Kiwi or Ozzie NG drivers to leave their overseas job for 1/2 the pay... Yeah right! Maybe the odd one, but not many...

At best I believe VB could maybe give ya a couple of crews for a few days to put out fires (so to speak) and thats it! And even then they would be putting stress on their own roster... :uhoh:

Pure and simple management BS. Guys you are about the worst paid NG drivers I've heard of - period! IMHO its disgraceful, my F/O's get as much as your CPT's. 3rd world airlines pay more (China, India, Middle East etc).

Same old NZ aviation equation; First world country + 2nd world wages = corporate profitability.

RW's must be laughing all the way to the bank, and PB management with em!

Guys if your management are so delluded that they think they can replace you, then let them face the music from their board when the planes are parked, and the losses soar. :ouch: Instead it appears they are hoping that their remaining crews are so naive they will believe the BS and continue to accept being treated like garbage. :\

If I was G*dfrey I'd see this one company / 2 pay schemes fiasco as the divisive disaster it is and bring everyone in the Virgin OZ / NZ outfit together under the same pay & condx. (just think of the message it sends to your people; Oh yes boys and girls, we are all Virgin and we do exactly the same job, BUT you are Kiwis so deserve to be treated like 2nd class citizens...) Not nice and hardly promoting company spirit & unity.

IMHO the answer is simple: Show some respect to the people who actually did create and who maintain the organisation that provides YOU YOUR JOB by providing real world pay & conditions. :ugh:

Uh, mmmm, oh yeah - thats an idea! :D Or not...

[FXDWG]

Well I for one am spare and sitting at home in OZ relaxing since June 07 having had enough of ( living) OS but VB seem to think Im not needed in spite of having been on their books since 2000.

I guess my 6000 plus command in NGs and the many years of line training new F/OS and Capts on the NG I did for many OS International airlines is not enough for VB and the likes of JR, BK, etc etc.

Experience it seems is not needed in this LOW standards or should I mean LCC airline.

SO if they wait much longer I shall be off again to train other countries pilots on Ngs instead of the OZ ones that I should be bringing my skills from 19 years OS to share with!

Hey to the gods in flight mismanagement in the ivory tower in BNE why dont you drop me a line at my email address to arrange a chat about the future parking arrangements for your spare B737NGs!

[Dunnybudgee]

Let me hazard a guess that experience may not be the issue then? Perhaps you could try RW's, I hear they are looking... Joke* is also rumoured to be offering PB NG CPT's DIC A320. (VB's JR long gone BTW).

[willnotcomply]

What I am saying, is that right now, if I won the lottery, I'd take up flying.




IRONIC! Most Airline Pilots in this situation would probably leave the job!

[Chocks Away]

No parking yet, technically.:hmm:
They "delayed" the introduction of the 8th frame due to this turmoil.
Heard it was announced at their Christmas party that new routes were planned to start with this 8th frame, early March...

Shareholders impressed?

[dueweno]

What 8th frame thought they had six

[windytown]

I see PacBlue have announced ChCh-Dunedin rtn starting 1 July.

Given the announced new route amounts to 1 flight per day, this would not be enough to justify an extra plane. Hence the route is either coming at the cost of something else or assuming its the extra plane that more announcements are forthcoming.

That the plane rtns to ChCh at 1.30pm, cetainly allows potential for extra domestic and a TransTasman returning midnight.

Any ideas as to what is planned?

[Cloud Cutter]

7th Aircraft, and you're right, the CHC-DUD return doesn't utilise it fully, it will be mainly used to increase capacity on current international routes, particularly BNE. Nothing too exciting.

[Luke SkyToddler]

How much do they actually pay?

[Kangaroo Court]

Boeing Tech Rep' for major US Carrier said that quite a few deliveries will have to be deferred to SE Asia in coming months...they ain't got no pilots to fly 'em! Boeing aircraft make very expensive lawn ornaments.

I say it's time to pay the piper..or the pilot in this case.

[tio540]

How many years was it again that VB deliberately stopped recruiting? Sigh.