Back to the Question, so where are all the jobs then?

[Dihaz]

I know its been asked before but everyone keeps diverging off the question when someone talks about ryanair or somthing.

So where are all the jobs then?

Heres my situation, I am 19 YO just out of training, no type rating so where do i go now?

Ive sent cv's to just about everywhere and im fed up now.

cheers

[AlphaMale]

Maybe you should have researched the job market before diving in and blowing all that money on your training. :ok:

I assumed you had around 200hrs and a fATPL? ... Like thousands of others :bored: ... but on second glance you have put '(Nearly) fATPL' in your licence category?

[Dihaz]

I did do my research and the job market is very good, the problem is that its very competetive.

Yeah this is the first time ive posted somthing since i joined ages ago. my profile hasnt been updated (now it has). im fATPL 210hrs.

And please i dont want any slagging matches about research or other things, i just wanted people to share info on job oppotunites with their fellow job hunting friends.

cheers

[AlphaMale]

Dihaz, You should know that the market rises and falls. If you start you training when jobs are at all at time high then chances are you'll get your fATPL when the job market are at a trough or just starting to drop.

You're competing with FI with 1,000+hrs, and OAA graduates with a fATPL and a 737 SSTR (Along with a £100k debt) ... Some have 1,000+hrs and a SSTR.

I don't expect to get a jet job when I graduate (it wont stop me from trying all the same) but I'll be enrolling on a FI course within a month after finishing my ME-IR and I'll climb the ladder from there.

Are you applying to Jets only?

[Dihaz]

I dont really mind anymore what aircraft i get a job on now, obviously pref jet but ohwell.

curious, whats this FI course about are those like the ones that sigmar and randhiem companies provide?

thanks

[Dihaz]

sorry, miss read what you wrote you meant Instructors?

(very tired)

[dxbpilot]

Have you tried Ryanair ? They have a open day coming up, nearly everyone that attends gets a interview.

At the moment flight schools can't get enough flight instructors, they are even paying/bonding people right now.

Good Luck

[poss]

On the FI front, if you look at the top and bottom of the Pprune forums there is usually an advert or two about salaried FI work. One that I know for definite who have advertised here is Truman Aviation, which is an FTO on my local airfield that are paying £20,000 for instructors.

[AlphaMale]

miss read what you wrote you meant Instructors?

That's right, I think the cost of getting a FI is around £6k - £7k in the UK and then you'll be looking at flying 40hrs - 80hrs per month and getting paid for it. They pay isn't too good but if you survive the winters and stay with a school for 18 months 2 years then I see no reason why a TP or Jet operator wouldn't give you an interview?

That is my plan, I don't intend paying for my own TR (I think a TP is around £13k and a 737/320 is around £20k) but if you do the maths I don't think Ryanair are a bad outfit to fly with for your first job. 737NG and only 210hrs on your book.

Keep looking I'm sure something will come up sooner or later, be it glider/banner towing or a FO on a Jet.

Good luck. :ok:

[Dihaz]

lol,,,

ive already tried ryanair, and they said no. did the interview and sim ride, thought it went quite well infact and went home quite pleased. next thing you know they email 2days later saying u didnt make it. i had a feeling they thought i was too much of a straight person. the questions they were asking me were wiered to say the least. im still going to try again though.

as far as FI is concered, ive never actually wanted to be one and dont really like the job ( cant see myself doing it). Desperate times call for desperate measures i suppose.

ive still got one job prospect im holding onto. my training organisation have a deal with Flybe and im being recommended by the CEO so hoping that goes well, but im wondering what if i dont get it.

confusion, confusion....
cheers

[Dihaz]

DXB pilot, hey morgz, u k dne your IR T yet, is it still on for fri? good luck!

[AlphaMale]

as far as FI is concered, ive never actually wanted to be one and dont really like the job ( cant see myself doing it). Desperate times call for desperate measures i suppose.

If you don't want to be a FI then I'd stay away from spending the £7k to getting there. It'll make your life hell and the students training hell not to mention the FTO's.

Might be better off putting that £7k toward getting half a SSTR on a TP? See if the TP Op will bond you the other half? ... might be worth a try?

If you get in with FlyBe then you're laughing :D

[redsnail]

Loads of jobs going in Australia.

Asia's booming at the moment too.

[Dihaz]

thanks alphamale and others.

if a 320rating is not enough with 2000+ hrs then god help us. i think its down to shear luck and being in the right place at the right time.
Alphamale can you elaborate on the scheme your talking about.
I dont mind paying for a rating but i dont want to risk it if i get no job. really banking on flybe now.
Have you heared about the SO scheme with silverjet? I wouldnt mind that!

cheers

[Dihaz]

does anyone know of any specific jobs in us/asia/aus because as far a i know they all bloody want you to be a citizen of their country.
so much for being nice to foreigners, for a job here all you have to be is a EU citizen.

[PAPI-74]

If you can raise 25k try Storm Aviation. They want pilots in India.
Jet2 are looking at low houred guys but again...you front the 23K.
CityJet too.

The jobs are there, but you will have to look harder.


Welcome to the hard bit...the first job.

[Dihaz]

you can say that again, finding the job is harder then the course itself.

Ive applied to all them but no replys. keep my fingers crossed.

[AlphaMale]

if a 320rating is not enough with 2000+ hrs then god help us. i think its down to shear luck and being in the right place at the right time.

Doesn't sound too good does it?!? :bored:

Alphamale can you elaborate on the scheme your talking about.

Not sure what scheme you mean? With regard to the SSTR (Self Sponsored Type Rating) I am just saying if you have £7k burning a hole in your pocket then it might be worth writing to Turbo Prop Operators noting on your cover letter that you're willing to pay for half the TR if they can bond you the other £7k. Take for example Eastern Airways who operate around 25 Jetstreams it will minimise the risk for them as they only invest £7k and not the £14k?

Might be worth a try ... if all fails and you feel you can and will enjoy instructing then get training ;)

[MIKECR]

Dihaz,

How long have you actually been qualified and actively job hunting?

[Dihaz]

alphamale,

thats what i was talking about. i didnt know there was a possibility of doing 50/50 might try that.

How long have you actually been qualified and actively job hunting?

I finished MCC in Feb and have been at it since. ( is suppose it hasnt been that long then)

[AlphaMale]

i didnt know there was a possibility of doing 50/50 might try that.

I'm not saying you can, but it's worth a try! It wouldn't stop me that's for sure, anything that makes you a safer bet than the other guy or gives you any advantage might get you the job. :confused:

[MIKECR]

Correct, you havent even touched the tip of the iceberg yet. The ink on your applications isnt even dry yet. Do you expect all the airlines you've applied to to get back to you in 4 weeks, you must be kidding. Most wont get back you at all, a few might, in 4 months probably!

[Dihaz]

Your right.

[Philflies]

Redsnail: Alas, given the opportunity I'd be in Australia like a shot but without residency + Aus License, no one is interested.

Dihaz: What were the 'wierd' questions Ryanair asked?

I'm on the job hunt myself, vast quantities of patience is needed. It's the most difficult thing! In the meantime. Keep everything current.

[Dihaz]

Philflies, they asked me wierd questions, i think they were trying to get at my personality.

He asked me:

Your sitting in Rome, its xmass eve, full passenger load you have to get back to ema. Capt asks you to do a walk around, a nav light is not working what do you do?

So i said: id check the mel
He said:the mel says you need them all
i said: id tell ops
He said: theyve gone home
i said: id tell the company
He said: theyve gone home
i said: id try fixing it myself :)
He said: you havnt got any ladders
i said: well we cant go then.
He said: well the capt wants to get home, its xmass eve. he says hes going. Do you go or stay?
At this point i didnt know what he wanted me to say, so i answered it from two ways.
i said: well the capt says hes going to go so ill go but id strongly object to it.

What was i supposed to have said?
i thought legally we cant go but, hey its ryanair so i didnt know if he wanted to see me bend the rules. (maybe it happened on pushback or inflight)
this was one of the questions that i got all the questions others got, i knew but didnt know my own.

good luck on the hunt let us know if you come accross any recruiting airliners.

[MIKECR]

He's questioning your integrity. unfortunately you've fallen hook line and sinker and admitted that your willing to break the rules. Ryanair or not. Airlines use all sorts these questions....captain smells of drink....left your licence at home etc etc

[BitMoreRightRudder]

What was i supposed to have said?
i thought legally we cant go but, hey its ryanair so i didnt know if he wanted to see me bend the rules

I'd say this might be where you went wrong! If the MEL says you don't go, you don't go. Thats it, end of conversation. Sod what the company and Ops might say - it's your licence! If the captain told me he was going? Not with me sat next to him.:=

Good luck with the hunt, but as others have said, you've been looking for what, a month? It could be you find a job next week, or it could be a few years. The bloke who taught me to fly has just got a job on a 737, at 37. He was looking for maybe 7 years. Failed a TR with another company and got knocked back by the company who have just given him a job. He got fed up too, I'm sure! But he still got there.

Keep the faith:ok:

[poss]

I don't know of any specific regionals but, I know that in America regional airliners are crying out for pilots, even low hours. I believe that a fair few are also providing their pilots with a type rating on their aircraft.
My sources are from a pilot I know currently flying regionals in the US.

[Dihaz]

poss, but the problem is you have to be a citizen of their country otherwise they dont want to know!

[poss]

Sadly, a very harsh truth. I have heard of some of the regionals helping british pilots get citizenship but citizenship assessments aren't fun things to go through, so I hear.

[EjetSetter]

Sisio, did you try Wizz?

[Crescentpirate]

Couldn't help but read your post.
you said something about joining an FI course?
What is this?

[119.35]

Flight Instructors Course. Train to become one.

[EjetSetter]

By the way, if your 19 and almost going for a jet job stay in Europe. In the states its an unwritten requirement that you've got to be 18 or older for the job.

[S44]

If all else fails and you don't fancy the FI route, why not try the Air Taxi operators, Air Med at Oxford, Ravenair at Liverpool, Centreline at Bristol etc? It might only be P2 work to start with, but its multi engine piston time in your book that you don't have to pay for and keeps your IR current whilst keeping those CV's going out. After a short time it could involve P1 time which is great experience and looks good on the CV. Good luck to you all...........

[AlphaMale]

S44 - He's only got 210hrs.

He'll need 700hrs for air taxi but some will take him with 400hrs :bored:

[Dihaz]

what if i do a type rating on say a 737ng and with some line hours, would i have a better chance?

[CFM56-7B]

It is a very (very very very) bad thing to say but SSTR + Line training could help ... A LOT!

Quite recently I got a F/O job with just my TR and no hours on type, but I was very lucky.

There are many guys working with me that got the same job with some hundreds of "self sponsored" line hours, hanging around for almost an year in Turkey or in Morocco, and believe me, they don't look very enthusiastic about the the quality of life down there...

When sombody puts out of his pockets 100.000 euros for his fATPL + Jet TR, he's very prone to spend 20.000 more to have an edge on his competitors. I was ready to do the same, I just tried knocking some doors around EU before applying for my line training in Morocco and I was lucky.

If I was to do my TR again, anyway I would consider a program with maybe 100 hrs included. You could actually need them, not to be better than your competitors, but, for what I have seen so far, just to be on their same level.

Check the forums around to find an honest TRTO offering such a program. Don't do the TR and the LT separated. It takes too long.

All of the above, of course, if you want a jet job.

Just 3 more suggestions...

There is almost (I said almost, not totally) no realtion between beeing an FI and getting a F/O job:
I know some very experienced FI that payed their own TR to get into airlines and know also some that didn't get the job because some companies prefer a Fatpl with 300hrs + 100 on A320 than a FI with 2000 SEP/MEP.

I have a friend 300hrs + fATPL that got a job with an aerotaxi company just applying with all of them. Try Aerotaxi!

Going in person to every company you truely like and asking could also be a good idea. Dress smart (also mentally), prepare what you have to say and you have good chances to meet the right person at the right moment and make a very good impression.

Good Luck!

Yours
CFM56-7B (the 27.3k one)

[S44]

Alpha Male

Some Air Taxi operators will take on 200 hr fFAPL pilots but, like anything, its right place, right time. I started out with Air Taxi with 250hrs total and 35hrs multi... a steep learning curve, but some of the best and most challenging flying of my career!

[Dihaz]

hey cfm-56 7b
thanks for that. all that you just said made sense and is exactly what i thought.
but one question. If one was to SSTR (and some hours ofcourse) would you do a bus or boeing? specifically which type. im thinking 737NG

[MIKECR]

You only started looking 4 weeks ago and your already thinking of spending more thousands and thousands on buying your way into a job??

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Ah well :ugh:

[Dihaz]

MIKE CR
whatever it takes buddy, whatever it takes.

in this day and age you have to be PRO-ACTIVE and take risks you can always be pesemistic (if thats how you spell it).

[MIKECR]

And you also have to think!

And its pessimistic.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Mike


And you also have to think!

I get the feeling you're pis:mad:ing in the wind with this one!;)

[speedrestriction]

Dihaz,

the possibility of being £120,000 in debt, without a guaranteed job, without a tangible asset to show for the investment is plenty cause to be pessimstic. Ever hear the saying "plan for the worst, hope for the best"? After that level of investment I would be a bl00dy fool if I didn't have a lucrative plan B to pay off my debts.
sr

[MIKECR]

Yup, the youth of today! No clue and no patience:ugh:

[inner]

hi,

i was looking for almost 4 years to get my first break. I'm now flying a lear and have a lot of fun. During this unemployed period i just kept on ifr flying and doing some flightseeing tours hoping for a first break. I'm happy i did not consider to pay for my TR and even to pay for my linetraining. It really makes me sick that people still consider this way. I don't understand why it always has to be a B737 with an major airline, making a loads of money in the beginning etc. A FI route might be a better option to improve your cv. Ok some people have this luck, but there are still other ways to get there. Experience is not related to a 737/A320.

good luck

[Dihaz]

thanks inner.

Mike CR, speedrestriction your flying training is just like a business. If you dont invest back into the business the ships gonna sink and youll fall behind the rest of the competition.
You have to think logically and give yourself that edge that no other jobseeking pilot has. if you have already spent £58K (which i have) then why not pay the 25k to better your chances. people think that the type becomes a waste once you get the job but it doesnt atleast no1. you arent bonded for ages no2. your not on a downgraded salary.

So they both have their pros and cons, somtimes you should think about things logically and figure out whats best for you.

No doubt i am waiting for a job and inevitably it will take ages but if i feel the ship is sinking a year on and my flying skills/knowledge are deteriorating than im going to have to take some evasive action to make the most of my investment.

[MIKECR]

Ok chief, I bow to your superior knowledge and wisdom. What do i know, im just an old fart eh!??? Good luck with the 'business' plan!:D

[Dihaz]

my comments wernt supposed to make any one bow down to me. i know im young with limited experience but again being pro-active is the best way to go. indeed you must wait a while to get that job but if you dont youve got to do somthing about it inorder to safeguard that investment. all the time spent sat around doing nothing is at detriment to your flying skills/abitlity.

SO NOW, where are all the jobs then?

[dartagnan]

sadly , not many job around.
many applicants, few jobs.
this mean, lot of pilots wont find a job after graduating.
that s a fact, it is the reality, and this is why it is harder and harder to get a loan.

there is NO solution to this problem. yes, there is one: be in the right place in the right time.

as for the guys paying for line training, not flying, hanging out all day , waiting to log 1 or 2 hours a month, with no income...that's their choice.

have u heared ONE good comment from someone who has paid for line training??? in over 1 year, NO one pilot told me it was a good idea to pay for line training, but they ALL ask me where they can get line traing.

I have no clue where you can get line training, and I won't tell you because I am against people paying for line training.you can still try indigo, and have fun with them...

get a life, there are some jobs in asia as a flight instructor, exemple panam beijing, or in africa as a missionary, cargo pilots,...
but if you are not ready to move in these countries, and work hard, I can tell you your career is already over.
the airlines with boeing are not going to reloacted close of your house, or build a runway in front of your house, and give you a job just because you have a license and a few hundred of jet time.

this job is reserved for people who are ready to pack and preferably single with no attach,ready to move deep in africa or alaska, and take some risks...or for the one who is ready to invest lot of money and open his own taxi operation.

consider that you may not find a job after all the effort and money invested, and your life wont never been like before when you had a normal job and a stable income.

but you know all this already...we have to be nuts to try to make this job.

to all of you :ok:

[sawaya]

dartagnan (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=131906) at his very best need i say more.........by the way D dont think that you just show up in Africa and think you will land a job on the spot,there is a lot of competition from locals,and getting a work permit is a real hassle.I am talking from experience of living and working all over Africa for 25 years

[AlphaMale]

somtimes you should think about things logically and figure out whats best for you.

What like corrupting the market? :ugh:

Paying for your training is one thing, paying for your TR and line training is another and of course the next step will be paying to work!!!

So at the end of the day the pilot with the most money gets the job and the airlines become very rich!

If you decide to pay for your SSTR and line training and expect a £40k pay pa what is stopping me from saying to the same airline that I'll match your offer and work for £30k pa?

Bill it become a bidding war for you, that way your business plan works? If we are both lucky enough to fly 737's for £30k pa why should other airlines pay their FO's £40k? so what you'll do is devalue your profession. And if you're looking to stay in the aviation industry long term you can only blame yourself for your bad pay and conditions. :ugh:

But as you said, you're young and soon enough you'll learn. ;)

[Dihaz]

alphamale your correct but it seems we dont have a choise nowadays, the economy is s**t shaped and airliners are getting tight fisted.
God help us all!

[sawaya]

Just to add one more thing i come from a small third world country in Africa,but we have a very successful national carrier with the latest of aircrafts,In that part of the world and Asia included paying for type rating does not exist at all,you have a license you get a job,the company does all the paying of type rating and salary as you are doing your type rating.

I moved to Europe my wife is an EU national i am not,i currently have an Frozen ATPL. If i was to go back to my home country i would go straight to at least a 737-800 minimum,fully paid type rating bonded for 3 years and salary that can match any airline in the first world country,but with much lower standards of living,which means you save much more.

Now the mrs does not want us to go to my home country we have a little baby,which means its now time for command decisions anyway i decided to stay in Europe and look for a job bearing in mind i don't have an EU passport just a spouse to an EU national,I have decided to get myself a type rating course with a loco that does not guarantee a job at the end of it,My friends back home would think i am absolutely nutts as 30,000 euros can buy you a mansion back home ,and the fact that if i go home i walk into a jet job without having to pay a dime.

I have decided to take the risk because those who take the risk drink the champagne,i am not the messiah who has come to save the pilots T&Cs,i am in rome i will do what the romans do,

PS: Dont hate the player hate the game :ok:

[Dihaz]

spot on sawaya,

by the way can i go to your country for a job? lol

[sawaya]

i have already done it and its all soughted now ,the reason i cant commute is the roster is 5/4 it take 2 days of travel to and from.

[sawaya]

The jobs in Africa are only for the country's citizens, I remember a while back our national airline were short of captains and wanted to recruit captains and experienced FO,s for the 737 NG ,767 ,777 ER the pilots association went on strike and hence the decision was reversed,and the company sent 180 young boys and girls to SA for CPL after they were done,went to GECAT for the type ratings some even went straight from the seneca to the 767 lol.

[BerksFlyer]

alphamale your correct but it seems we dont have a choise nowadays, the economy is s**t shaped and airliners are getting tight fisted.
God help us all!

The evidence would suggest otherwise. People with 250 hours and frozen ATPL still get jobs. It takes patience. Why not get an office job to keep your money supply ticking over while pumping out the CVs to every operation you know of? Not just jet operators, but ALL operators. I suspect you're just aiming too high, just like all the many others who seem to think you need to pay to work to get a job. It doesn't have to be like this, all it takes is patience.

[Dihaz]

berksflyer,

ill give that a try.

[HN1708]

Paying for Type Ratings is one thing, but paying for hours on type is just plane wrong (pun intended). If you are flying as an FO on a revenue flight with a payload in the back then you are simply doing another pilot out of a paid position. I know it 'makes sense' in terms of a business investment due to the potential return, but i still don't agree. In a business sense, as a business owner, i think it would be more lucrative to sell airline hour building packages to people!

It seems like aviation will soon be full of people who are in their jobs due to how much of their own, or their parent's, money they are willing to throw about to get a job. And no, i'm not bitter, i'll get there on the basis of my ability and yes i could buy a job if i wanted to. It's down to old fashioned things called integrity and conviction.

Rant over :-)

[Anonymus6]

sorry if I sound so negative, but what a bunch of negative people in this forum. if you are so negative that there are no jobs, then you will never get a job. Air traveling is expanding, it is not like 4-5 years ago when the chances where little to secure a job (even to get a FI job was hard). Airbus and boeing are busy up to their ass to build airplanes, so is small bizjet operatores. I don't know why so many of you youngster want to jumb into the big ship and fly a 737 NG when just get out of flight school. Be patient, why not try turboprop or something else before flying the big one.

Just be patient and with the right attitude everthing will work out.

:ok:

[Dihaz]

HN1708, you too are correct!

i agree anonamous6, there are some negative people around.

I dont really mind what i get a job on really it just seems that 73NG pilots are hot property so thats why i suggested it.

[Dihaz]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????

[AlphaMale]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????

Dihaz what does your last post mean? :zzz:

There is no answer.

[MMORE]

There are some options in UK, mainly in Loganair I heard you could start as Cabin crew and then move in the cockpit when there is a free position

[Dihaz]

Sorry Aplpha male, just abit fustrated!

LoganAir? might check it out.
cheers

[ReallyAnnoyed]

Sawaya, I can not understand your reasoning. You say that you could go home and get a job straight on a 738 with paid rating and with T&Cs at least on par with any European carrier. Starting salary here in Orange land is 38,158 plus about 7,000 pounds flight pay which adds up to around 45,000 pounds p.a. Even with the current, horrible exchange rate 58,500 euros gross. Assuming that you pay less than 50% tax, you would still get 30,000 euros net p.a. in your country. According to you, you can buy a mansion with 30,000 euros, but yet, you claim that quality of life is low there. How does this add up?

Furthermore, if it is that easy for you to get a job back home, why don't you just go there for a year or two, get 1-2,000 jet hours and then move to Europe? Somehow, I feel you're not really painting an accurate picture of the situation.

The flag carriers still pay for ratings here in Europe.

[MIKECR]

"There are some options in UK, mainly in Loganair I heard you could start as Cabin crew and then move in the cockpit when there is a free position"

Oh please.......where did you hear that absolute bul**it from????

[HN1708]

I know a Captain who does stints in recruitment for a very reputable jet operator who is disgusted that people are paying for airline hour building (his words, not mine), and is actively looking out for people who have 'bought their commercial experience' in order not to employ them!

Imagine being an FO and being told you are getting made redundant because a load of pilots are willing to pay to do your job. How pissed would you be?

[sawaya]

i meant the cost of living is much lower compared to Europe,all companies regardless whether they are national carriers or nor have to bond you for a type rating,if anyone asks you to pay for a rating up front i am not sure what will happen,because it has never happened before, chances are the company will be forced by the govt, to file for bankruptcy,and yes my situation does not make sense to anyone i love my daughter i cant be without her and hence i will stay in europe and cut my teeth here.

[CFM56-7B]

Hi Dihaz,

sorry to answer you 5 days later,

here's my opinion about which type to do:

first of all, if you want to do 737, do them all for sure (I mean 300-900).

Which one to choose between 737 and 320 it's quite the typical 1 billion dollars question.

The fact is that there roughly 5000 737 and 1500 on order and something like 3000 flying 320 and 3000 on order (not complety sure about this figures). In Europe orders and flying planes are about 50% 737 and 50% Airbus 320, but if you exclude ryanair, there are slightly more companies with A320.

737 is more fun (especially classic):ok:, A320 flies for you :E...

Generally Airbus will get you some hundreds euros more per month:*.


Anyway, back to your first post, you said you're only 19. You have time on your side, in your situation I would try to save a big amount of money, starting with a job on small planes.

Nobody will pay for your 737 type even if you do 2000hrs MEP but, if you go through small TPs and then big TPs and then small jets and so on, then you have some chances to have all your types payed or at least to pay for them when you already have a job to fly that type.

Consider also that there aren't many airline pilots of your age, especially on big planes, and many companies would more likely hire you when you are 22-23 instead of now... not saying that all the companies are like that but some are for sure.

Of course if you were 25-30, a SSTR + 100hrs on type could have been a reasonable solution, but you are more than 10 years ahead. I would keep this as an extreme measure, maybe if you can't get the job you want in, at least, 3 or 4 years.

And, once again, if you want a job with a small aereotaxi or similar company, study all the info you can get about the company and then try to go there with your application personally. You never know who's in the office that day...

Good luck!

CFM56-7B

[Deano777]

MIKECR

I think he meant Eastern, (got his wires crossed), they were putting new starters in the back of the cabin whilst they waited for positions (apparently)

[Dihaz]

CFM56-7B, Thankyou very much for your insight into the whole thread in the first place.

Those were the kind of comments that I wanted people to talk about when i first wrote on pprune. But it seems that when ever someone writes about somthing on pprune its like an invitation for an argument and slagging match.

I thank you once again and please stay in touch via PM.

Cheers
Dihaz

[BerksFlyer]

CFM56-7B, Thankyou very much for your insight into the whole thread in the first place.

Dihaz, only because he's telling you what you want to hear ;)

You want to be impatient and you want a jet job to fall into your lap, but as has been said, you don't need to buy a rating and line hours.

Some people's attitude really beats me. Where has all this impatience come from? Why not be happy to work your way up?

Sure if you get offered a jet job take it! But just because you don't doesn't mean you should buy your way there.

[MIKECR]

Nothing wrong with the 2 mentioned. They are perfectly well respected training organisations. Where the 'opinions' cme into conflict are when you take the next stage after training and license issue. I think you'll probably see what the majority of opinions are on people who are buying TR's and line hours with no job at the end of it

[Callsign Kilo]

OAA, OAT or whatever they are called now.....

I spoke to a fella who was fresh out of said establishment. Had spent £78,000gaining his CPL/IR. He was then putting himself through the Ryanair route in order to get a job. If successful, that puts the cost of zero hours to first stint in the RHS to well over £100,000 :\

Did make him a bit sick when I told him that he could have saved £38,000 on getting the same licence and indeed the same job if he had went to my FTO initially. However he was still convinced that Oxford offered a superior product at the end of the day :p

[BerksFlyer]

Dare I ask what your opinions are of organisations like OATS and CTC then? Essentially you could class their cadets as buying their way in

No, they are not.

Going to OAA or CTC does not mean you are buying a job. CTC is different as you know. Unlike OAA not everyone can go because not everyone passes the selection, hence the people who go through are the ones who fulfil the partner airlines' requests, so CTC is irrelevant.

Sure, when going to OAA you have taken the decision that it will give you an advantage over others (and you are paying for that), much like you may decide when buying a TR or line hours. But the difference is that EVERYONE has to decide where to train whereas NOT EVERYONE chooses to get a TR and line hours. Hence you are buying your way to a job more so than others.

[VFE]

Look guys, ab-initio flight training and type-rating training is big bucks these days. Companies offering that training are simply meeting the demands by supplying a product. Joe Bloggs with, ahem, £100k burning a hole in his back pocket will pay these companies and henceforth you have yourself a new circle which continues to revolve and evolve. You will get more sleep at night and plan a much healthier existance (and plan of attack for getting yourself a job!) if you accept this fact, acknowledge that there are some out there better off than yourself, and move on. You won't change the situation by bleetin' on PPRuNe, you will just waste your time.

Before anyone starts in on me let me just say that I personally abhor the idea of a SSTR too but realise that to a large extent the struggling wannabe airline pilot community only has itself to blame for the situation it finds itself in today. The MCC used to be paid for by the airlines too but a trend developed whereby Applicant A wanted an advantage over Applicant B so went out and bought the certificate thus putting themselves ahead of the opposition. The type rating has sadly gone the same way, save the odd rare exception. There remains a small but honourable minority of aspiring pilot who do not jump into SSTR's due to lack of funds or simple self respect and who continue to work up through the lower rungs of flying jobs to arrive in the RHS of a jet aircraft as they approach their late twenties/early thirties, having mastered some of the prerequisites of command along the way, and even the planned multi-crew CPL cannot render this route redundant. They will still get jobs because employers will respect their attributes in a way money cannot buy the SSTR applicant. But the bottom line is: both parties will still be getting jobs.

You can analyse the situation all you like but the fact is this situation exists and whilst the world is round there will always be someone willing to pay more money to get ahead of you. Stick to your route, focus on your world and enjoy your journey. And as for those financially better off than you? Que essera, essera.

VFE.

[Philpaz]

No, they are not.

Going to OAA or CTC does not mean you are buying a job. CTC is different as you know. Unlike OAA not everyone can go because not everyone passes the selection, hence the people who go through are the ones who fulfil the partner airlines' requests, so CTC is irrelevant.

I'd bet my house that the people that dont go to these FTO's do so not because they couldn't pass the selection (although there are many that wouldn't) but more so because they dont have the money.
If Integrated were the same price as modular then you could argue that it was the selection process that kept people out . However, sadly, its not the most overiding factor. Money is, and therefore you could argue that by going to these schools you are simply buying a better chance at getting in the RHS, not buying a job, but using your money to increase your chances.

Paz

[BerksFlyer]

I'd bet my house that the people that dont go to these FTO's do so not because they couldn't pass the selection (although there are many that wouldn't) but more so because they dont have the money.

I agree to a certain extent with OAA and the others, but I do believe that CTC is different because of the percentage that actually get through. In other words you could be minted but not buy your way onto the course because you need to pass through things that the majority wouldn't be able to do.

[Dihaz]

thanks berksflyer and VFE for your constructive comments.!

I strongly disagree with the comment that people dont go to OAT because they dont get in, infact hat is total nonsese! I passed the assesment for OAT but didnt go there because it seemed to me more of a money making organisation! I dont think the price they were asking was justifyable taking into consideation that they send you to the states where its even cheaper.

Anyhow BACK TO THE THREAD PLEASE i didnt want a discussion about OAT or CTC there are other threads for that!

[BerksFlyer]

Dihaz,

Sorry, I think I made my point completely wrong. What I meant is that it is perhaps easy to get into OAA and the other integrated schools, so maybe my first point was incorrect.

What I was saying is that I wouldn't count CTC amongst them because the main reason why people don't go there is because they wouldn't get in.

My earlier post was on the topic:


You want to be impatient and you want a jet job to fall into your lap, but as has been said, you don't need to buy a rating and line hours.

Some people's attitude really beats me. Where has all this impatience come from? Why not be happy to work your way up?

Sure if you get offered a jet job take it! But just because you don't doesn't mean you should buy your way there.

[dartagnan]

guys, you should think positively.
It 's plenty of jobs around, ...

one of my friends just got a job on the 777 with less than 500h.
5 of my friends got job on the 320...

big lie , they all struggle to find a job....they have no job.

at least i gave you 5 seconds of hope:p

take it easy, if you knock at all doors, one will open(one day).

[VFE]

When are you going to get a life Dartagnan?

VFE.

[G SXTY]

When he gets a job . . . :)

[VFE]

Or a shag.

I'll save me stake money for Heather Mills winning Come Dancing.

VFE.

[Dihaz]

now now ladies put your handbags down!

[VFE]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=K1jL-9S-oD8

VFE.

[CABUS]

Dartagnan, absoloute comedy:ok:

At least your honest, that is truly going to keep my laughing all night!:}

[BerksFlyer]

CABUS,

I think their point is that he's more than killed that particular gag, he needs some new material!

[VFE]

At least your honest, that is truly going to keep my laughing all night!:}

Wild fun at yours tonight then... :\

Someone say something interesting for gawdsake! :bored:

VFE.

[G SXTY]

OK then, how about Flybe - requirement for approx 10 FOs per month for the next year.

[VFE]

Now that's better! :ok: G-SIXTY.

VFE.

[tupues]

OAA alone are pumping out at least 20 lows hours pilots each month...

[G SXTY]

That's OK, not all of them get in . . . ;)

[one2go]

BA are taking 250 this year, low hours at least 90 but at a guess about 120.

[jamestkirk]

Don't get too down. It took me three years to get a job. The one thing that is on your side is age. I got into it a little late and most airlines think you are un-trainable after 30 (They have not got the balls to admit it though).

If you get the money together for a TR WITH THE Guarentee of a job, then great.

The FI thing is a tricky one. I spent two years at it and working 11 hour days/seven days a week to pay the rent can be an acidic existance. Although, I still instruct on my days off and really enjoy it. Plus, its extra beer (shiraz) money. If you can live at home, survive on the wages and enjoy it, it could be an option.

[Dihaz]

cheers james,

yeah a lot of people tell me that about my age (thank god i did do it straight away).

I wouldnt mind SSTR with a job on the other end, its just a matter of getting one.
I dont think i would be interested in instructing, im just thinking if i dont enjoy it then it would make life hell for my students plus why pay for the instructor rating when i could put some more money with it and pay for a TR.

adios
dihaz

[poss]

Sadly to make your suggestion viable in terms of funds Dave, you would really have to be juggling another job ontop of that as well as I doubt you would find many FTO's that pay their FI's enough to cover living costs as well as enough to set back a sum for a TR.

[poss]

Been an FI in addition to another job would mean a lot more tax,which would mean you wouldn't be earning that much more or even possibly less. It brings about the reasoning of most FI's that they may have to work for nothing for an FTO to avoid the taxman doing one over on them.

[donPablo]

Sorry guys for an OT but do You have any thoughts about going for a year or less to some exotic countries such as Costa Rica or Panama to work out this hours on some dhc or caravans instead of doing FI... having of course CPL/ME/IR JAA but without TR.

Do they accept JAA or want some coversions, do they pay for this "small TR", and above all do they want low hour guys ?

And I know that the easiest way is to give them cv but I don't have yet all of this mentioned CPLs but beeing close so if anyone knows... it would be nice or if someone knows who might be hiring there?

[portsharbourflyer]

donPablo,

I would expect Latin American countries would require FAA ratings; though I am not totally sure what licences are accepted in that part of the world.

However on a similar vain most African countries accept JAA licences with a fairly straight forward conversions to the local national licence (normally an air law exam and check flight). And as an alternative to instructing in the UK it is possible for low hour pilots to get employed as bush pilots in places like Zambia and Botwana. Most low hour pilots start on the Cessna 206 but after a season or two can move on to a Caravan or a King Air. However to get jobs in that part of world you have to travel there and present yourself in person to the operators.

[donPablo]

Yep... but i'm still wondering about Latin America, anyway thanks for that... Africa might be also a good solution