BALPA and BA talks breakdown

[Wayne Ker]

According to BALPA web site the talks between the two sides have broken down.......BA have threatened to get a high court injunction to prevent BA pilots from striking. Not sure thats gonna work. Well done WW.......not !:ugh:

[411A]

BA pilots right and truly believe that BA management is going to roll over....ain't gonna happen, you can be sure.

[Panman]

BA management right and truly believes that BA pilots are going to roll over....ain't gonna happen, you can be sure.

[BigBobBloggs]

BALPA talks update

We are disappointed that BALPA has chosen to walk away from the talks led by the conciliation service, ACAS. We believe the opportunity remains to reach a peaceful resolution and lift the threat of strikes from our customers.
During the talks we made a number of offers to BALPA that we still believe could resolve the differences between us. We are proud of the professionalism and high reputation of our pilots. We do not want a conflict with them and have not sought one.
We have offered binding assurances that OpenSkies will pose no threat to the terms, conditions and job security of British Airways pilots. Prospects for BA flight crew have never been better. Our plans for expansion at Heathrow and Gatwick mean we will be recruiting more than 300 new BA pilots in the next two years, as the London-based fleet grows to more than 240 aircraft.
Our offer also included making available to BA pilots 50 per cent of flight crew vacancies for the six aircraft currently planned to go into the new airline, while protecting job security and career progression in BA.
OpenSkies is a new airline in a highly competitive market from Continental Europe to the US, and the terms and conditions for its staff must reflect that. BALPA says that terms and conditions for OpenSkies pilots must match those at BA as soon as the airline becomes profitable. This would generate cost and complexity that the new carrier could not sustain. OpenSkies would not be viable - restricting our ability as a company to compete by setting up a European business and putting at risk the creation of 350 new jobs.
We felt it right and fair to give BALPA private notice that we have a valid legal claim against them before they took the disproportionate step of calling a strike. If strike dates are issued, we will act to protect our customers by applying for an injunction.
We must act to protect our customers and explore every option to prevent the massive disruption a strike would cause.
We have made ourselves available to talk with BALPA at any time in order to find a peaceful solution.

Ends

[tb10er]

Whatever the rights or wrongs of any strike, any action will lead to the demise of BA.

Even now, passengers must be booking elsewhere. One only has to read a travel insurance policy to see that, if there is the likelihood of strike action at the time of booking, the insurance is void (I have just checked mine before anyone comments).

Why would anyone want to fork out money on BA flights, only to discover that any strike action now would nulify their policy.

Try Googling "BA strike" to see how many instances of the various stikes over the years there are. Is Arthur Scargill a member of BA staff?

[GS-Alpha]

It seems that BA reckon BALPA is denying them the freedom to set up a subsidiary company within Europe. It's a bit of a long stretch if you ask me!

I suspect we are looking at BA eventually scrapping the setting up of Openskies and blaming the pilots for making it too expensive an idea. However, we have actually agreed to accept what ever pay and terms and conditions they want, as long as OS pilots are on our master seniority list (as the intent of our scope agreement dictates).

[Dave Bloke]

BBB,

Are you management? You've made ONE POST and it's a straight copy of a management post on the Flight Ops Forum.

Must be serious for someone to work late on a Friday night.:E

[sweeper]

methinks the BA press release is willie speak for "cop on people,this is real"
cop on may be required!:eek:

[Dave Bloke]

Some of the them have had the cops on them for a while now..... :E

[Re-Heat]

BALPA says that terms and conditions for OpenSkies pilots must match those at BA as soon as the airline becomes profitable.
Please explain this line from BBB's post.

a) I cannot believe BALPA would demand that - the issue was framed as master seniority
b) It is clearly unviable, and at odds with the former mainline regional operations that operated at a lower cost base
c) The airline as a whole is profitable, therefore this comment makes no sense

[Dave Bloke]

a) They didn't. More detail on the BALPA Forum.
b) See a
c) See b

[CanAV8R]

To anyone reading BigBobsBloggs post.

This is a BA manager who will lose a large sum of £££ in the form of a bonus in the event of a strike. This is all they care about. It is this person’s first post and is directly copied from BA internal servers.

BA will make £1,000,000,000 in profit this year. A record profit in a year when they lost a record number of bags, upset a record number of passengers and a year when its staff (including its pilots) apologised to its customers a record number of times. They now want to rob their staff blind.

As a BA pilot I apologise to all in the travelling public for our potential collective actions. We have had enough and in the end are squarely on your side day in and day out. We feel your pain, so please try and see ours. Vote with your feet and give your hard earned money to our competitors. Maybe then they will learn that YOU, our customers should be our number one priority, not the greed of a forever growing bottom line.

[maat]

It used to be the case, that of the 10,000 professional pilot licence holders in the UK or so at the time, BA employed about one third, the RAF accounted for another third, and the rest worked for what was termed the independents.

Having being the employee of two different subsidiary airlines of BA over the years and having on both occasions found myself redundant, I would anticipate that for those considering working for Open Skies, the future might not be what they anticipated.

But on the other hand; if BA pilots were to go on strike and in the event that BA would hire on contract or employ directly pilots to fly their otherwise grounded fleets, I would have no hesitation in working for BA, on my terms. Given that of the aircraft type ratings I hold, four of those types are currently operated by BA, I may of some use to them.

It would be a bold move from Willie to allow a strike to go ahead; but if he did and given that the proportion of RAF pilots available to airlines has reduced and that the proportion of pilots working for independents has probably increased, I could foresee a situation where BA crew it's aircraft from a mixture of strike breaking BA pilots (probably management, the ones most difficult to replace) and new direct entry pilots.

It should be remembered, that when President Reagan sacked all the US Air Traffic Controllers, the USA did not grind to a halt.

[411A]

It should be remembered, that when President Reagan sacked all the US Air Traffic Controllers, the USA did not grind to a halt.


Nor did Continental Airlines when their pilots went on strike simply because they thought that Lorenzo was not serious.

They found out, quick enough...many went back to work straightaway and told ALPA to go fly a kite.

BA pilots are, in their collective mind-set, extremely foolish.

[Wingswinger]

Our plans for expansion at Heathrow and Gatwick mean we will be recruiting more than 300 new BA pilots in the next two years, as the London-based fleet grows to more than 240 aircraft.

Grows to more than 240 aircraft? I seem to recall it was at that number many years ago. Smoke and mirrors.

the RAF accounted for another third,

Just as a point of information, RAF pilots did not have licences of any kind. They were not required to fly one of HM flying machines. The only RAF pilots with a commercial licence were those who were on the point of leaving the service having done the necessary CAA exams and flight tests.

[StudentInDebt]

Whatever the rights or wrongs of any strike, any action will lead to the demise of BA.
Summer 2004 customer service staff walk out - 2004/5 Profit 513M
Summer 2005 ground handling staff walk out - 2005/6 Profit 620M
Winter 2007 cabin crew strike (effectively closed the airline) - 2006/7 Profit 611M

[jacjetlag]

British Airways Strike Preparation

APA Communications Committee: Over the last few weeks, APA has expressed its unwavering support for the BALPA members who are fighting British Airways (BA) management’s attempts to outsource flying. The UK carrier is attempting to create an alter ego carrier, “OpenSkies,” using non-BALPA seniority list pilots to conduct 757 transatlantic operations. APA leaders are urging the BA pilots to learn from the mistakes made in the United States. In a video message to the BALPA members, APA President Captain Lloyd Hill warns that “this outsourcing of pilots has… continued to undermine the careers of professional pilots in the United States. Heed our warning, learn from our mistakes – and fight this tooth and nail!”
Recently 86 percent of BALPA pilots voted to authorize a strike in response to the “OpenSkies” operation. If BALPA does conduct a strike to resolve this issue, our support of their efforts will also need to be elevated. Your APA leadership will be directive about our actions in support of BALPA. There are many things we can do to support a BALPA strike, for example:

APA pilots can show support by participating in BALPA picket lines and/or APA-organized informational pickets in support of BALPA.
APA pilots can support stranded BA crewmembers by assisting with transportation, lodging and jumpseating (note: BA flight attendants are not eligible to fly on AA cabin jumpseats).
APA pilots can support BALPA through monetary contributions.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
We are with you. Regards, the pilots of AA.

[Dave Bloke]

maat,

Your posting history indicates you are generally quite "pro-BALPA" and have been encouraging support at Jet2.

Why do you feel it is right to support BALPA at Jet2 but not at BA?

[TartinTon]

Ahh but the world has moved on from those days. If BA pilots were to strike on enough occasions (more than 6 times) they would forfeit all their slot holding at LHR in a market that is just about to open up in March.

No LHR slots = no BA

The yanks and Sir Dickie Jumper must be licking their collective lips in anticipation.

[Human Factor]

I hope Willie is thinking along the same lines. :=

[Vino Collapso]

It is a pity to see proffesional pilots using such phrases as 'scab' so openly on a public forum. It is a stark reminder of the miners strikes of decades ago. There are obviously a few very pro-union posters making a lot of noise and rousing the troops onward to battle.

We all have our own position on this issue be us pilots, managers or customers. Mine as a passenger booked to fly during the peak of the strike threat is that strike action in the UK in the long term has never won anything. In the short term you might win a skirmish but as a result the company gets its cards marked by the public as very union driven and volatile. Watch the business crumble over time.

As for me and the family (accused on the other thread as being a 'manager' but defintely not), well I have just had to pay up for our accomodation in the USA or lose it. So I am out of pocket on that. Then the flights have been paid for on both BA and onward with AA. Will my travel insurance pay up if we can't go? I doubt it somehow. That is equally as real to me as your problems are to you.


(yes I know you are fighting for your future, or so your union reps keep telling you, but guess what? The travelling public doesn't give a damn. If you can convince us that by your actions we will benefit in the future, or at least not be worse off, then perhaps we could be made to understand. A union rep had better get on tv quick and try to get Joe Public on your side. Right now I see it as an internal company fight which the public can in the future avoid and let you all get on with it in the same way you would walk around a drunk in the street and not get involved.)

[Human Factor]

...as a result the company gets its cards marked by the public as very union driven and volatile. Watch the business crumble over time.

The business is already crumbling, mainly due to the company having had it's cards marked for a while. The travelling public may not give a damn but we do. We are tied to BA for the next however many years. The board and leadership team are not and we are not going to let them get away with destroying the company and our livelihoods and then simply moving on.

Willie Walsh was quoted in one of the broadsheets at the weekend acknowledging that BA had chosen the wrong strategy of cost-cutting rather than actively seeking mergers (maybe someone can provide a link). As a result of this error, they now feel it is a good time to try to make up for it from the employees - and they've started with those who have most to lose and who are most likely to defend their lot.

I am hopeful that this will see significant changes at the top of the company and we can get back to where we belong. If any of the present Leadership Team remain in place after the inevitable blood letting which will follow a strike, their lack of credibility is highly likely to mean that the goodwill which the pilots have shown over the past few years by going the extra mile to make up for the shortfall in service caused by the excessive cost-cutting will be lost.

It didn't have to be this way.

[judge11]

'The travelling public doesn't give a damn.' - and therein lies the problem with the current state of the airline industry. You, the travelling public, has been given all-time low airline fares combined with all-time low standards; and you lap it up. But that has come at the expense (BA and legacy carriers' crews excluded who through sheer 'muscle' have been able to defend their positions) at an erosion of pay and terms and conditions among a very large number of professional pilots over the past 10 years. This assault has been lead by the likes of O'Leary and now Walsh (there is a common factor here) and it is time that it is made quite clear that enough is enough. If it means putting £10 on a seat then so be it.

In my opinion BA crew do not have to get the public 'on side'. It is an internal dispute but the only way in which such disputes hit home is when the shareholders' bottom-line is hit. And have no worries, this will not bring BA down - Irish upstarts might.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

You, the travelling public, has been given all-time low airline fares combined with all-time low standards; and you lap it up.

Judge11, are you referring to the traveling public who was previously not allowed to travel the world using monopoly companies - because they were not rich enough? And by the way there's only one 'l' in traveling, Mr High Standards.

You should add to your list of truly dreadful people Mr Henry Ford. Before that bastard came along, only decent wealthy people were to be found in motor cars on public roads. Well, I guess he wasn't Irish, so maybe he doesn't make your list. I assume that's why you left Stelios out, anyway.

P

[MaximumPete]

There are no winners in a strike.

I think it a dreadful shame that so-called professional people start to sling the s**t like you lot are.

To BALPA, get your act together, get involved in a constructive dialogue with BA.

Luddites went out existance years ago, along with the dinosoars!!

'scuse the spelling

MP;)

[anotherthing]

So; Mods, obviously this is a very emotive issue, but are the comments that ACMS made (post number 17) really acceptable for a professional forum?

As an aside - Judge11 - so the the public are prepared to take a little less luxury and pay a lot less money for the privelege? What fools eh?

Unfortunately the days of BA giving the standard of service that every airline aspired to are long gone - they are no better than other national carriers. The public must be brought on side as it is the public who hold your future employment in their hands.

I do not think any member of public with a little common sense would deny the rights of BA pilots in the issues facing them, however the attitude of a minority of BA staff which is "you get what you get, like it or lump it" is in danger of becoming more pervasive and will if not corrected, be the real risk to the future of BA.

[chipmunkj]

StudentInDebt wrote:

Whatever the rights or wrongs of any strike, any action will lead to the demise of BA.

Summer 2004 customer service staff walk out - 2004/5 Profit 513M
Summer 2005 ground handling staff walk out - 2005/6 Profit 620M
Winter 2007 cabin crew strike (effectively closed the airline) - 2006/7 Profit 611M

Sorry-----Cabin Crew did NOT go on strike in Winter 2007!
Many see it as WW handling of the situation which caused the problems.

[xyzzy]

Well, I've got Easter flights booked with BA and 1500 quid's worth of flat booked at the other end, which won't be covered under travel insurance. I'm perfectly happy for BA staff to strike in support of their Ts and Cs, but in common with a lot of people I can't say that through anything other than gritted teeth. My reading of the various postures from the participants is that Walsh will shut the airline down, cancel the T5 move and sit it out.

All the seniority in the world won't help pilots if as a result BA lose LHR slots in the EU-US Open Skies slot auction (isn't there a provision that airlines applying for slots have to have a history of uninterrupted service), and given the middle class propensity to holiday at Easter it'll have a major on-going impact on business travel (people who have lost money on holidays won't race to book tickets).

It's up to the pilots what to do, and it's a shame that BA, ACAS and BALPA can't reach an agreement. But pilots who believe that `winning' a strike is a guarantee of long-term employment are invited to visit a mining town: you can win the battle, but lose the war.

Good luck with the negotiations. But even speaking as a staunch supporter of labour rights and the rights of trade unions I can't say that 1500 quid sits easily.

[doubleu-anker]

Sorry BALPA, you won't win in the long term on this one. You will bring the airline down with you and you will be out of a job. Tell that to the wife and kids (in public school) when you cant cough up the fees. The bank manager won't give a rats a**** who the hell you think you are. All they are interested is the money.

The days of the glory boys at the front end of the aircraft who think their own s*** doesn't stink, are long gone. An airline has to slim down to survive.

I used to think like you lot and was very militant years ago but soon learnt that they will always get pilots to do your job, make no mistake.

Pilots will never stick together as a group, never and BA know it. Sooner or later, ranks will be broken and a lot of you will be back with your tails between your legs, willing to work for anything, or next to nothing. Then you will be victims of the oldest management trick in the book, divide and rule.

[Dave Bloke]

An airline has to slim down to survive.

Exactly, mate. So why hasn't BA reduced the headcount per airframe from 177 to something more realistic?

I used to think like you lot and was very militant years ago but soon learnt that they will always get pilots to do your job, make no mistake.

Probably explains the huge chip on your shoulder.:rolleyes:

Then you will be victims of the oldest management trick in the book, divide and rule.

What the hell do you think we're trying to prevent? Or have you missed the entire Open Skies debate?

[biddedout]

xyzzy

Don’t worry, airlines traditionally get round preserving slots by leasing in aircraft to operate short versions of the routes from nearby regional airports.

Easy money for the minnows who can provide the airframes. Not sure what size of airframe is required to keep LHR happy these days, they used to use Small piston twins. Recently, a four engined jet was leased in by a well known Southern Hemsphere flag carrier in order to operate EMPTY:ugh: Manchester to Heathrow and back three times a day for two years to preserve slots. Probably 2-3 million litres of fuel burnt carrying nothing but fresh air. Interestingly, BAConnect bid for this work, but according to BA management, the nasty BA BALPA CC refused to allow it. Funny old thing, it turned out that was not actually true. :rolleyes:

This might be a clever trick to get round the rules, but I can’t see our friends at Greenpeace keeping quiet. It wouldn’t sit well with the Respecting our World policy either:=, unless this has already been thought of and WW compensates by turning Waterside into a giant composter and planting a million trees. :ok:

[Dave Bloke]

....by turning Waterside into a giant composter and planting a million trees.

They're halfway there already! :E

[Bomber Harris]

right at the start of this thread a first time poster called bigbobblogs posted something titled "BA PRESS RELEASE" then there was a narrative obviously cut and paste. Then BBB typed the word "ENDS" to signify the ending of the press release. It looks to me like the only word BBB used which was his own was the word "ends", and typed very eloquently i may add :)

av8r and dave bloke: can you please explain why you attacked this poster, or should i say "cut and paster". From his typing of the word "ends" you seem to have deduced he
1. is BA management
2. is about to loose a lot of money if the strike goes ahead

This is NOT a comment on the potential strike, I am just curious about BA pilots deductive powers. Maybe BBB has made more posts which give his identity away which I have not seen and maybe, av8r and dave, you have had clashes with this person before. If so, I understand your reasons for your posts, but it really does say "1 post" beside his name as of today???

btw, p stands for "post" in my title! :)

Now, as a comment on the potential strike........matt; you need to re-evaluate your personal principles. you are a very sick individual who is in need of counseling. I do believe that you can be re-aligned with the rest of humanity, but you will need to recognise that you may need to help to get it done.

[CaptKremin]

Sorry BALPA, you won't win in the long term on this one. You will bring the airline down with you and you will be out of a job. Tell that to the wife and kids (in public school) when you cant cough up the fees. The bank manager won't give a rats a**** who the hell you think you are. All they are interested is the money.

The days of the glory boys at the front end of the aircraft who think their own s*** doesn't stink, are long gone. An airline has to slim down to survive.

I used to think like you lot and was very militant years ago but soon learnt that they will always get pilots to do your job, make no mistake.

Pilots will never stick together as a group, never and BA know it. Sooner or later, ranks will be broken and a lot of you will be back with your tails between your legs, willing to work for anything, or next to nothing. Then you will be victims of the oldest management trick in the book, divide and rule.

The usual suspects come out of the woodwork at times like this.
Where's Oneworld22? No predictions of DOOM for BA? He must be snoozing.

BA guys - ignore the defeatists. Their sole aim is to demoralise and dispirit you. IALPA fought their own corner in the face of the same threats and propaganda. They got their bottom lines secured as a result. Don't wimp out.

The above poster has rolled over and accepted his defeat. He is now being exploited, and is resentful that you are in a better situation. He wants to see you dragged down to his level. This would be a good outcome for him. This says everything about the value of his opinions.

Good luck. You'll win if you stand strong.

[Cavitation]

Having read this thread and the other regarding the BA/BALPA/OS issue, I find it amazing that BA now faces a strike by it's pilots over OS.

Surely those working in the airline industry know better than ANYONE employed today (in any line of work) that you cannot successfully fight the effects of this type of globalisation? We live in an age of great change in all industries and as much as I hate to admit it, there is simply no way that employees can dictate what a company can and cannot do anymore - those days are pretty much over. Especially when that company has become a by-word for industrial dispute and inconvenience. Competition is a very real threat as much as we would all like to pretend it isn't.

At the very least I would urge those considering industrial action to consider this: Many people will look at you and consider you all to be very lucky indeed - you do a job you love (presumably?) and one for which there is a large list of wannabees waiting to join you. You are well rewarded (always have been) and will doubtless continue to be so. Compared to those losing their jobs in manufacturing or in others non-airline industries your position is - to put it mildly - seen in a different light to how you see it...

Your pain and frustration at your employer is, in your own eyes, justified and very real. But be prepared for others to feel differently and to take their money elsewhere. At the very least, your union should be seeking to minimise the disruption to your customers by ensuring an Easter free of travel chaos.

Background: I have nothing to do with the airline industry (although I am a BAEC Silver so do fly your airline) but I do work for a union (NOT Balpa!!) and I see you being backed into a corner by your own.

My sincere hope is for some sanity to prevail in this dispute. On both sides.

[Dave Bloke]

Bomber,

Circumstancial evidence to be fair. BBB's post was a straight copy of something on a secure BA server and posted here very shortly after it appeared there. The reason for my suspicion is a combination of the fact that BBB has only made one post and that he didn't make any sort of comment about the post or it's origin. Almost as if it was his own words.:rolleyes:

Most regular posters on Prune will acknowledge that you can usually spot a BA line pilot a mile off and BBB almost certainly isn't one. You have to be one or the other in order to have had access to that statement at that time.;)

Remember on previous threads, there've been a few "multiple identity" BA managers posting and agreeing with themselves.:mad:

[Bomber Harris]

Thanks Dave, I see your point now. So he has access to the secure server. And I guess you're deducing that a BA pilot would start the post by saying "look at the latest bull they're feeding us". OK, all sounds reasonable. Well BBB hasn't resurfaced again so that tends to back up what you're saying.

Well, if you are right, then I guess the management are not feeling that secure if they are looking for the support of the rest of the pilot community.

Actually I think it's quite humorous to think someone on the team at the helm of a multi billion dollar international corporation is posting titbits on a pilots forum to try make the minions loose friends. I wonder how much that job pays? :confused:

[Hand Solo]

People do post some arse on here! BA losing it's slots at Heathrow? We'd have to go on strike for 60 days before that happened, and Wee Willie and his cronies would be out of a job before we got half way to that. Something to look forward to I suppose!

[pedroboy]

Hi there,

I am a customer of BA and wanted the honest truth from you guys. My family is going to be flying on BA on the 19th of March out to london to come and visit.

Seeing as things have not gone so well with the talks, can anyone give me an impression of what they think is going to happen in the coming day? Will my family be able to get out here on the 19th? Are there any suggestions you can make for me, as we have a lot of money spent into this trip?


I hope someone can respond. Thank you.

[chipmunkj]

Pedroboy - Are you another BA Manager on a "fishing expedition"?!

[Cavitation]

I find it hard to believe that talks have broken down already.

In this age of mass globalisation it is a fact (however unwelcome) that employees cannot entirely dictate terms and conditions to their employers in the same way they could 20 or 30 years ago. No matter how deeply felt the pain and frustration you feel towards BA, the *only* winners in this dispute will be BA's competitiors.

According to the BBC report (online) your terms and conditions are amongst the best in the industry and your employer has already agreed to ensure that they will remain unaffected by the new OS subsidiary - to insist that the "BA family" shouldn't be "broken up" is not going to gain you the sympathy of the public or wash as a reason for striking as it seems no more that trying to ringfence your way of life - a luxury that unfortunately few working people have today (and compared to say losing a manufacturing job without prospect of reemployment...?)

I honestly share the pain of those who are facing a future of uncertainty change (that's most of us at work!) but don't allow the union to back you into a corner and lose what support you do have.

You may win a minor victory by striking - but what then? If you think a strike will stop future changes (both within BA and other airlines), it may be time to question Balpa's handling of OS. To an outsider like me, they seem somewhat out of touch with reality.

[chipmunkj]

Cavitation---Yet another manager joining the party!?!
BA must be desperate!

[Brakes...beer]

Pedroboy,

I cannot speak with any authority as I am just a member of BALPA. However, I think these injunction cases are dealt with pretty swiftly, so if the judge decides on Monday 10th to permit a strike, BALPA would probably give the requisite 7 days' notice shortly thereafter. So a strike could begin on the 17th at the earliest, which would probably curtail your family's visit I'm afraid. If they are able to change their plans now, I should think that would be a good idea. Alternatively, hang onto the tickets and travel at a later date.

[SQC7991]

I cannot believe you guys are considering strike action over this - being a Luddite is obviously a requirement for employment as a pilot with BA. Or perhaps more accurately you have to be a Luddite to belong to BALPA.
:bored:

[Cavitation]

No - I don't work for BA or Balpa or Virgin or anyone even remotely concerned with the airline industry.

I do fly though! :)

Are BA desperate? They sound fairly confident to me. One thing I do know from dealing with businesses (big and small) over the last few decades, is that they get where they want to go increasingly without a thought to what their employees want or expect. That is the true (and horribly harsh) lesson to be learned from globalisation.

Sadly I just don't think the airline industry is immune from this effect and that things will get worse before they get better (if they ever do?) OS seems to me to be just the start of very far ranging changes for all - one strike isn't going to change that. Sad but true.

[hellsbrink]

SQC

Do you know what a "Luddite" is? Pray tell how you can term the BA pilots as such...


(Jeez, the ignorance shown by some is astounding. They must be management)

[pedroboy]

I am not a BA manager, I am actually a student at King's College who hasnt seen his family in seven months. I have been waiting for September for my family to come, and I simply cannot believe that this is happening.

Any one else with any advice and suggestions?

[SQC7991]

Well the original Luddite was an individual who didn't want to see any improvement in efficiency in the cotton mills of old. Isn't this what you BALPA guys are up to by opposing the BA attempt to profit from the new open skies agreement?

[hellsbrink]

SQC

A Luddite is someone who is against TECHNOLOGICAL change. Pray tell us where the advance in technology is in this dispute.

[SQC7991]

Not quite - improved productivity either by new technology or better work practices is still improved productivity. Why can't you see that Luddite?

[toro]

As a member of BALPA & a BA pilot (I do apologise) I can assure you that the BACC do not want to screw around with our passengers or mess up the T5 move. Unfortunately due process has to be followed, concilliation,courts etc and only then will a (hopefully not) strike date be announced. There is no sinister subtext as far as I am aware to cause more pain to our customers especially around the holiday period.

We are not luddites and I was brought up in a mining/mill family up north, to compare a failing manual industry with a booming service sector is ridiculous and unnecessarily emotive.

Lets hope it will be resolved, however can assure those of you 'outside' the BA pilot community our resolve of the mainly reasonable moderate, senior/junior, P1/P2 shorthaul/longhaul is very firm.

[Hand Solo]

Not improved productivity either SQ, the OS pilots are only contracted to fly the same working hours I achieved last year. Keep trying though, you're entertaining me with your desperation.

[Caudillo]

Why is it that anyone who appears to construct a cogent argument not in favour of the pilots is accused of being a manager? You can do better than this lads, it's not the inquisition.

[overstress]

I wouldn't say that name-calling from 'Singapore' is a cogent argument.. :hmm:

[Hand Solo]

Perhaps it's because most of the 'cogent' arguments are from people who post exclusively on this subject, deliberately miss the point of the debate and rattle off points that look eerily similar to BAs corporate communication pieces?

[Dogma]

Good Luck Guys and Girls at BA.

With Saunders and McAuslan at the BALPA helm you will need it!

[hellsbrink]

Again SQL, the luddites wre against the TECHNOLOGY advances (which in turn would have taken jobs from them). The issue was the use of machinery replacing people, NOT "improving efficiency", etc.

Now, stop trying to twist history.

[Dave Bloke]

...your employer has already agreed to ensure that they will remain unaffected by the new OS subsidiary...

Our employer agreed to ensure that the regional bases would stay open as well.

Do you see the problem?

[GS-Alpha]

People seem to be criticising BA pilots for standing up for themselves purely on the basis that no one else has got away with doing so for a decade or two, so why should we? Just because others do not stand united to do what is right, does not mean we should follow suit! If you are convinced we will not be able to pull it off, fine that is your opinion. Why not wish us luck and wait and see?

If you are a member of the travelling public, I am sorry this might cause you concern or inconvenience, or even distress. You can send your complaints to BA management. We are simply the pilots, and we are exercising our right to defend our terms and conditions. We have no say over what management decide to do. We can try to influence them, but if they want us to go to a strike, we will. It is that simple.

As for any managers who may or may not be trying to stir up trouble here; who honestly gives a monkeys? I have zero respect for our management, just as they quite clearly have zero respect for me.

[hunterboy]

I am amazed by the number of posters that begrudge other citizens their legal rights. Is it not a legal right to strike in the United Kingdom any more?
Let us hope that these posters are not put into a similar position and not only have to battle their employer for decent Terms and Conditions, but put up with sniping and belittling from their neighbours and the general public.

[SQC7991]

Most people these days think Luddite is short hand for obstructive labour objecting to innovative ways to improve productivity. To those who say productivity will not increase then why do BA want to do this?

[Cavitation]

I believe I bothered to post (when I've never bothered to post before although I've been a long time lurker mostly for the humour!) because I have been (about 10 years ago) in a position similar to the one that BACC find themselves in now.

My colleagues and I (I'm talking about a sector of the financial services industry - not the airline industry) were faced with outsouring and a threat (as we saw it) to our future terms and conditions. I can't tell you how much I hated the employer at that time (I still feel bitterness now if I'm honest) and we were fully engaged with our union (a company endorsed section of the TUC) in trying to ensure that the proposed changes were withdrawn.

Suffice to say that our small victory was a pyrrhic one - we didn't get to strike as the management agreed so some (not all) demands. I ended up redundant just under 3 years later as did many of my colleagues (it wasn't lost on us exactly WHO was made redundant)

I suppose I see reflections of that time in the tone and bitterness of many of the posts here. I don't know if I would do anything differently if I had the time again (perhaps I would have sought alternative emploment earlier?) but I do know that after my own experience I would simply ask anyone is the service sector (which can be so easily outsourced) to think long and hard about what life is like post strike. You may feel bad now but what about after a strike? What if, a year from now EU legislation makes what BA want to do perfectly legal and acceptable - what will your strike achieve?

This is an honest question for anyone here - if you do strike, do you expect BA to capitulate? If so, what happens then? I believe they could simply adapt their proposals and get what they want at a later date (rather like the re-appearance of the EU 'treaty' which looks and smells like the old one but apparently isn't...:))

I do NOT have any affiliations with BA or BAA or any airline (apart from owning a silver BAEC card). But I am interested in labour relations and transport in general...

[Jamesair]

I take no position on either side of the argument, all I would say is that both sides need to step back and think of the end user of the product, the customer.

He has a choice of airlines, a customer lost sometimes never returns. A lost customer means a lower profit, a lower profit leads to loss of jobs.

[chrisbl]

I am all for the BA pilots going on strike. Cabin crew as well. May be then a sh*t airline will go out of business at long last opening the way for other carriers to move in and take over. They cannot be any worse.

I am with the pilots. I hate BA too.

[Hand Solo]

How much profit did that airline make this year? Stick to being a wannabee.

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

So the mainline pilots want the 'open skies' pilots on the seniority list. And BA management don't.

Is that really worth striking about?

From my point of view, I guess that management must think so- otherwise they'd simply agree to the mainline pilots' demand and the threat of industrial action would recede.

The fact that they refuse to allow the OS pilots on the list proves they're up to something.

[Hand Solo]

Most people these days think Luddite is short hand for obstructive labour objecting to innovative ways to improve productivity. To those who say productivity will not increase then why do BA want to do this?

And lots of people think the moon landings were faked, doesn't make them correct, does it. BA want to do this because they want to make us work for less money. End of story.

[tb10er]

nice one Chrisbl.

If there is a strike, let's hope that it is long term, none of this 48 hour stuff (that only hurts the passengers).

While BA is shutdown for weeks on end, lets get some decent competition in. I can just imagine Ryanair's 737s with their new logo BYE BYE BA. Richard's Virgins must be loving every moment of this (more work for them).

I am not management, I don't care which side is in the wrong. All I do know is that a strike will end in tears for the staff in the long run.

[Cavitation]

Personally I would hate to see the National Carrier go to the wall. I have always enjoyed flying BA and am sometimes lucky enough to fly Club which is about the best business seat out of Heathrow.

I don't know any pilots but the cabin crew I've had on my flights have been fantastic - and I wouldn't wish loss of job on ANYONE!

Let's hope a resolution can be found before it's too late.

Everyone has the right to strike - I would defend that to my dying day. All I would say is that you have to think about the longer term consequences - and there ARE always consequences some of which sadly cannot be forseen

Good luck to all those fighting for what they want - please remember to be kind to your families and don't take out your frustrations on them (as I did on mine many years ago)

[overstress]

SCQ you are like a stuck record. Most people these days think Luddite is short hand for obstructive labour objecting to innovative ways to improve productivity. To those who say productivity will not increase then why do BA want to do this?

BA pilots have been benchmarked as amongst the most productive in the world. You clearly do not know your subject, alternatively you know exactly what you are doing and are happy to peddle lies on this forum.

[Ray D'Avecta]

BA pilots have been benchmarked as amongst the most productive in the world


Now, that is 'management speak' if ever I heard it :)

just shows that the pilots and the managers are not as far apart as they think, and a mutually satisfactory resolution may be just around the corner. :}

[hunterboy]

I'd also be less inclined to strike if I'd got the Singapore Airlines profit share last year....6 months salary I believe......and didn't they make less money than BA?

[Thebaxfactor]

It's pretty predictable that every 6-12 months one group or another in BA threatens strike action. Last time it was the cabin crew, now its the pilots.

The arrogance that goes hand in hand with the militant, outdated, and scargilesque belief that walking out somehow achieves any form of victory is quite overwhelming.

I was a BA gold card member - I suspect to most of the vocal minority of pilots in this current dispute that means I was just an irritant who got spoken about in the galley for ordering a second glass of wine with my meal. However, to the company that employs you it meant I and my company spent many thousands of pounds contributing to your profits.

the last time a BA group threatened strike action I made a new arrangement with my travel department and a new deal with myself - the deal meant I would only ever travel with BA as a last resort. It hasn't happened yet. i have become an extremely happy and loyal customer of Lufthansa and regularly make the short trip to Germany to connect further afield in the name of avoiding the risk that flying with BA poses.

I am ashamed to look at BA and to consider what has happened - you have some of the best working conditions of any airline and still you threaten for more. You have lost me and countless others like me. I am not throwing my toys out of the pram, just stating a fact. You need to grow up, focus on flying planes, and stop p*****g off your customers with pathetic and indefensible threats.

I suspect this note will just be greeted with a torrent of abuse for having the audacity to challenge the greater wisdom within the flying ranks...please, feel free, because maybe when you have driven enough good and honest custom away, you will realise there is nobody sitting the seats on your aircraft who actually cares any more.

Please wake up, remember why you joined the national carrier, look at the oil price, think of the shareholders, and maybe have half a thought about your pension should the worst actually happen and you put yourselves out of business...I guess that will just be someone elses fault.

Good luck.

[camel]

Whilst on strike ...why not take a 'crash' course in Chinese? i guess we will all be working for them in the not too distant future.deep joy....tin hat on for laughter and incoming!

ps:me no joking.

[marlowe]

it is such a sad indicment of this country that a company can only be deemed succesful by how much profit it makes and not by how it treats its workforce, a pity that a few more people didnt stand up for what they believed in ,this country as a whole might be better off. Thebaxfactor is the sort of guy that we have running companies in this country .

[overstress]

It's pretty predictable that every 6-12 months one group or another in BA threatens strike action. Last time it was the cabin crew, now its the pilots.

It's pretty predictable to get rants like yours. If you are an ex-customer, why are you remotely interested?

PS we are not "asking for more" - if you took the trouble to actually understand the issue before jumping in here with both feet you will see why you are being flamed.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Bravo to BALPA,

It's about time someone stuck it to the incompetent chimps that masquerade as BA senior "managers".

I'm travelling from London on BA in Mid-March and hope it coincides with the strike, as I'd happily man the picket line with the pilots. Having been a TU rep and having to deal with these idiots, I can understand how the senior BALPA reps are banging their heads against a brick wall.

I'm sure anyone who is anti this strike is either;

a) BA management

or

b) has never had to cope with the sheer arrogance, belligerence and sub-human intelligence that constitute BA mangement.

Good Luck and God Speed Gentlemen

Ex-BA and completely shafted in the regions by them.

[Cavitation]

I used to think that if more people stood up for their rights companies would have to think twice about employment terms and conditions etc. I believed it was that simple! Unfortunately the 70s showed us that people who took this route (striking) won small victories but eventually lost the war to the global market place - steel, ,mining and coal. Less trouble with labour relations and lower costs.

I don't like it anymore than anyone else but the reality is that for everyone here who wants to see better prospects, bonuses, share options, job security for life etc etc - there are literally thousands of others both in this country and around the world who are only too happy to do the job without any of the above guarantees and perks.

If anything we are seeing it happen all over again in the service industry - outsourcing technology jobs, call centres and manufacturing all oversees.

In my own job (Technology project work for banking) I am surrounded by people of virtually every nationality who are all keen and happy just to be working.

The sad fact is that the pilots may on this occasion force BA's hand but make no mistake, as I learned from bitter experience, payback will come.

Companies DO NOT care about people - once you disabuse yourself of this ideal you can start to focus on security for you and your family. Its pretty much all you can do.

[Hand Solo]

Well thanks for the pep talk but nobody in BA has laboured under the notion that BA gives two hoots for us. Security for me and my family is what this whole dispute is about. Furthermore whilst it's easy to outsource IT jobs it's rather more difficult with flying. There aren't enough pilots in India. Or China. Or Australia. Or the Middle East. Where are all these people willing to do my job for peanuts?

[skyedog]

For those who would actually like to understand the issues, take a good look at.. www.baplane.bapilot.org

[Magplug]

it is such a sad indicment of this country that a company can only be deemed succesful by how much profit it makes and not by how it treats its workforce

Three things used to shape our society... Moral cause, Social responsibility and Financial need. Now there is only one - Financial greed has replaced Financial need.

Willie Walsh speaks of social responsibility in one breath whilst screwing the workforce in the next. His generation of businessmen will pride themselves on making a buck from whatever they can, be it degrading a well respected product or demoralising the workforce..... And he will take pride in doing it.

The next time your BA flight is cancelled look very carefully at the reasons for it. They will now cancel and consolidate flights at the drop of a hat, any old excuse will do as long as it diverts any blame away from BA. They end up are saving costs by flying fewer planes...... and they get away with it as nobody understands the inner workings of aviation. Is this what we expect of our national airline?

What sort of socially responsible manager takes advantage of poor foreign labour laws and make long serving International Cabin Crew redundant in order to re-employ them on lesser T&C with forced retirement at 45.

Fair Trade ?!?!

His generation will make a buck wherever they can with no morals whatsoever.... They will do whatever they can get away with. It is time this generation were held to account.

[Stoic]

In view of Lufthansa's pilots' reported past strike actions and threat of strike actions (see result of Googling 'Lufthansa strike' below), should you not be transferring your custom to a country where strikes are banned by law?

Regards

Stoic

Pilots at Lufthansa Approve a Call to Strike

Published: February 27, 1997
Lufthansa pilots have voted overwhelmingly to strike over wages and contract duration, their union said yesterday. But no immediate walkout was expected. The German white-collar union began a strike vote after wage negotiations broke down in mid-January.
Though 87 percent of the pilots voted for a strike and they alone could effectively ground the German airline's planes, it was not certain that they would do so. The union had said it needed a 70 percent approval from all voting members at Lufthansa to begin a strike. While a majority of cabin crew and ground personnel approved a strike, the total vote fell below 70 percent. Union negotiators are to discuss the outcome of the vote and decide their next step tomorrow in Hamburg.


Friday, 4 May, 2001, 08:50 GMT 09:50 UK
Lufthansa pilots strike
file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/MICHAEL/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.jpg

Lufthansa will be hit by weekly strikes by pilots
Lufthansa pilots went on the first of their weekly strikes on Friday, forcing the cancellation of most of the airline's flights out of Frankfurt airport.
"We expect there will be virtually no flights departing in the first 12 hours of Friday," said Michael von Pilar, a spokesman for the pilots' union.
The pilots have voted to hit the Europe's second largest airline with weekly strikes for the next four weeks over demands for higher wages.
The first stoppage took place from midnight Thursday (2200 GMT) until noon on Friday (1000 GMT).
The union warned it could also take unannounced "small, short-term" measures.
Lufthansa shares fell 2.5% on the news and are now down by about a quarter since hitting a year high on 2 January.

[Cavitation]

Hand solo - If someone had said a decade ago that China would be the dominant world economy, that the US and the UK would have to go to them to raise money, you'd have laughed.

The pilots may not be around this year - but what about 5 years time? Who wouldn't lay a bet that India and China's booming economies don't see a huge surge in the amount of trained pilots (like thousands of software developers being trained in the last 5 years and now working here) - I assume there is good money to be made in it as a career choice so I would fully expect the numbers wanting to train to increase in the developing worlds.

My point is that we all like to think we are a 'special case' - but the fact is no one can afford to sit in an ivory tower and say "not me - I'm special"

Just because things change in a way you don't want them to, doesn't make the situation any less real - whether you strike or not, whether you get what you want or not, someone always ends up paying with their job:(

[idol detent]

It's pretty predictable that every 6-12 months one group or another in BA threatens strike action. Last time it was the cabin crew, now its the pilots.

...and if we do go on strike it will be the first time in nearly 3 decades that BA pilots have done so. And it will be with a heavy heart because the travelling public deserve better.

Direct your ire at BA management. We ask for no improvement to our T&Cs. We ask for no money. We are willing to do this for the cost-base that BA 'needs'. All we ask is a common seniority list.

BBB wrote:

We are disappointed that BALPA has chosen to walk away from the talks led by the conciliation service, ACAS.

We did not. BA said take it or leave it. We are still willing to talk.


We do not want a conflict with them [the pilots]

So why ignore our concerns & refuse to talk for 6 months?

and have not sought one.

So why did BA walk out of the Standing Conference, and now, offer us something that they knew would be unacceptable to us?

We have offered binding assurances that OpenSkies will pose no threat to the terms, conditions and job security of British Airways pilots

Downright lie. Verbal assurances have no validity. If they can offer assurances verbally, then why can they not bring themselves to put pen to paper and amend Schedule K?

Prospects for BA flight crew have never been better

Couldn't agree more. We want to be part of this new venture. Why exclude us when we have stated all along that we will do it to your costings?

Our plans for expansion at Heathrow and Gatwick mean we will be recruiting more than 300 new BA pilots in the next two years, as the London-based fleet grows to more than 240 aircraft.

Err, that's all pretty much been the case since late last year when we agreed to Work Coverage issues that we negotiated (at much cost to the pilots' bidding 'freedoms') which will cover retirements & for the first time see Reserve Pilots being calculated properly. At the moment the 'Reserve' number of pilots is under-resourced. Three hundred pilots & 240 a/c over two years ain't expansion - it's treading water (more-or-less). Nice try though.

Our offer also included making available to BA pilots 50 per cent of flight crew vacancies for the six aircraft currently planned to go into the new airline

The key word here is 'planned'. Anything over-and-above six; we get no say whatsoever. What if OS gets to fifty, or a hundred and fifty?

while protecting job security and career progression in BA

Tell that to the FOs who will wait a lifetime for a command! Taken straight from the Boston Consultancy Group's book that one...

OpenSkies is a new airline in a highly competitive market from Continental Europe to the US, and the terms and conditions for its staff must reflect that.

And I'll say it again. We offered to do it on BA's costings. They flatly said "no". Why?

BALPA says that terms and conditions for OpenSkies pilots must match those at BA as soon as the airline becomes profitable.

BALPA have stated all along that if the business can afford an increase in the T&Cs of OpenSkies pilots it will be aiming for that. Just like LGW. Just like any good Union should. It is important to emphasize that the key word here is 'if'. We have no desire to see OS fail, assuming the pilots are on the MSL. We wish it to succeed. Should the pilots not be on the MSL then we hope it falls on it's 4rse before it becomes the dreaded trojan horse like Jetstar, ClickAir etc.

This would generate cost and complexity that the new carrier could not sustain. OpenSkies would not be viable - restricting our ability as a company to compete by setting up a European business and putting at risk the creation of 350 new jobs

Utter tosh. BA have not, ever, costed Mainline crews doing W-patterns. They have no idea if it would be cheaper or more expensive to do so. BA will be charging full BA fares in OS. Are we really to believe that given its (supposedly lower) cost base it will lose money if pilots are on the same Seniority List? Given that the pilots have offered to do it for the price BA wanted? It simply does not add up, nor make any sense.


We felt it right and fair to give BALPA private notice that we have a valid legal claim against them before they took the disproportionate step of calling a strike. If strike dates are issued, we will act to protect our customers by applying for an injunction.

Good luck to them. My Union has been at pains to follow the letter of the law so the injunction should fail. BA, as usual, have lied and 'spun' to it heart's content.

We must act to protect our customers and explore every option to prevent the massive disruption a strike would cause.

Likewise. Just change 'customers' to 'members'. We too feel for our customers caught in this crossfire, engineered, from my perspective, wholly by BA.

We have made ourselves available to talk with BALPA at any time in order to find a peaceful solution

Well it took us 6 months to get you to talk in the first place. We then talked for a few weeks and you said "Take it or leave it". YOU walked out of the Standing Conference. We agreed to concilliation. You again said "Take it or leave it". YOU again walked out. WE are still willing to listen to you despite your intransigence. You had better get a move on. You have only got just over a week left...

Meanwhile, to the travelling public who put up with the embarrassment that is BA and endure the calamity that is BAA/Heathrow, our sincere and heartfelt apologies for the grief that you will surely suffer. 99.9% of BA pilots have no desire to strike and inconvenience you, but I am afraid we have been left no choice. Strike we will.

[pacamack]

I'm still gobsmacked that a TU is fighting to protect a mechanism that constrains a member's ability to move between carriers in the pursuit of better terms and conditions? :rolleyes:

[Hand Solo]

Yes but then you never were the sharpest tool in the box pacamack.

[Capot]

Strike if you must. And destroy your employer, perhaps, in the process. I really don't care what happens. A pox on both your houses.

But whatever the rights and wrongs of your case, for f***s sake spare us the sanctimonious bull and crocodile tears of ................

And it will be with a heavy heart because the travelling public deserve better.You are using your customers - the travelling public - and their anger and inconvenience as your weapon. That's what strikes are for. So cut the c**p.

[Hand Solo]

I'm not. I'm using the huge amount of lost revenue for BA and the inconvenience of having their aircraft stranded all over the world as my weapon. What you think of it has absolutely nothing to do with how this battle plays out. If BA decided to fly all the aircraft as freighters only I's dtill be out on strike.

[toro]

Capot,

swear properly if you must... but I can absolutely assure you in the 12 years I flown with BA I have never seen any arrogant or uncaring attitude from a pilot towards passengers; more like utter frustration that we are prevented from providing the service....yes SERVICE that you and all the other passengers deserve. Non of us go to work with the intention of failing in our job. Its extremely ignorant of you to slag off a group of highly motivated and professional men & women. (that includes all airlines)

would it be true to suggest that you don't personaly know any BA pilots because the attitudes you assume we have went out many years ago.??

[CaptainProp]

The pilots may not be around this year - but what about 5 years time? Who wouldn't lay a bet that India and China's booming economies don't see a huge surge in the amount of trained pilots (like thousands of software developers being trained in the last 5 years and now working here) - I assume there is good money to be made in it as a career choice so I would fully expect the numbers wanting to train to increase in the developing worlds.

No, does not work quite that easy. The Chinese FTO's are maxed out. Recent figures shows China to end up with a pilot shortage of about 8-9000....at the end of 2011 (2012). Besides usually the problem in Asia is not licensed pilots, its the lack of experienced and well trained pilots, like the ones flying for BA.

Good luck to the BA guys and gals!! :ok:

CP

[Ex Cargo Clown]

pacamack has to be on a wind-up surely ???

It's not about preventing employees moving from carrier to carrier.....

Have I bitten on that bait ???

[pacamack]

Yes but then you never were the sharpest tool in the box pacamack.

Another disagreement with a pilot, another personal insult. I detect a pattern emerging. It's no wonder BALPA are having problems trying to get a resolution through ACAS. :ugh:

[Hand Solo]

It's no wonder BALPA are having problems trying to get a resolution through ACAS.

Touche my friend.

[interpreter]

If I may can I give you a view of BA from the independent travel agents' standpoint. Almost everybody in the business regard BA as arrogant, selfrighteous, pompous and deserving of lost business. Their attitude towards customers and agents is universally seen to be apalling. Naturally this is relative. Personally I have always found the CC good - pehaps surly sometimes and with some members looking as if they were working on the H P Heracles - and the pilots I know and meet no better or worse than others.

If this strike takes place there will be no sympathy from the general public - there very rarely is for strikers but it will damage the profitability of BA and somebody is going to suffer. Who do you feel has the "whip hand" - Walsh or the BALPA leaders? Walsh has I can assure you. His role permits him to take whatever action is necessary in the interests of the company and if the very impressive ballot has not moved him the strike itself certainly will not. It may just mean a marginal improvement in terms but they will soon be dissipated by planned cost recovery action from the management.

My advice - keep talking. There is ALWAYS a satisfacory compromise BUT I really would strongly advise against the strike. The "glad all over" feeling you may get from seeing a large turn-out will fade when the changes to meet the cost of the strike to the company begin to come home to roost. Good luck but TALK TALK TALK.

[Hand Solo]

Once again......

Walsh has I can assure you. His role permits him to take whatever action is necessary in the interests of the company and if the very impressive ballot has not moved him the strike itself certainly will not

No it does not. There are laws relating to industrial action, and whilst BA's management have shown themselves to pay scant regard to the law, they don't get away with it. An impressive strike ballot was never going to move him. Grounded aircraft and no income will. He's got form on that.

It may just mean a marginal improvement in terms but they will soon be dissipated by planned cost recovery action from the management.

How many times must it be said? We are not seeking any improvement in our terms.

My advice - keep talking

We have been trying to talk since June, actually talking since December and have returned for five days of talking after the ballot result. BA has not moved one inch.

The "glad all over" feeling you may get from seeing a large turn-out will fade when the changes to meet the cost of the strike to the company begin to come home to roost

There was no glad all over feeling in BA, everybody knew a messy strike would be necessary to change to companys mind. Perhaps you don't understand that the future for BA pilots if we lose this one is far, far worse than the costs the company might seek to recover from us. Thats what the whole dispute is about.

[CanAV8R]

interpreter,

BALPA has been talking for sometime. The option to go back to the table after the strong mandate was taken in hopes of a resolution. BA more than likely used these talks as a delaying tactic. We are out of options and it is time to show the company that quite simply enough is enough. The contempt that the company shows on a day to day basis to our customers and partners like yourself is a major source of fuel to the fire in our fight. We day in day out see the frustration of the people who pay our wages. Now BA want us to pay for it.

Line in the sand I am afraid, and the feeling is much deeper than our managers believe. None of this want this but it is what it is, and the fun and games are over.

[Walnut]

"Idol Detent" I believe sums it up perfectly.
The company counsel (BACC) will meet shortly and review last weeks sham talks. They have gone through all the hoops and assuming they are still resolute will be planning the dispute in great detail.
Make no mistake it will be planned like a military operation.Under current industrial law an official dispute gives strikers significant protection, even if BA sacks its pilot workforce, 90 days has to elapse before they are able to recruit replacement pilots. How they hope to find, train, and organise the replacement of 3000 skilled people will be impossible. Clearly they will seek to cherry pick those they want back, but as a condition of returning to work the union will seek reinstatment of all as a precondition.
To illustrate how BA had no intention of reaching an agreement, one only has to look at March's "High Life" Mag, in which there is an article about the OS project. They had the arrogance to publish this article when they they were telling the travelling public at precisely the same moment they were at ACAS seeking conciliation.
Hold fast lads, determined pilots are very difficult to beat, we have all seen how just a little hicup at LHR causes significant problems, this dispute will be nothing to whats gone before. I shall be very interested to see the BA share price next week.

[GobonaStick]

I'm going to wait for Iberia to launch a take-over bid when BA's share price falls in. Then the Spanish will be able to bring the main UK airline's passenger service down to the same Third World level to which they've already reduced the UK's main airport. :yuk:

[Capot]

toro

would it be true to suggest that you don't personaly know any BA pilots because the attitudes you assume we have went out many years ago.??vNo it would not be true, as it happens...................

I didn't assume any attitude, I copied from a post made at 1904 today.

I think you missed the point; I was protesting at the stupidity of people who strike in order to lose their employer a great deal of money, by causing their customers to go elsewhere; in short, using the customers as a weapon.

It is so like BA staff to assume that the customers will simply come back again when they decide to go back to work, because "BA is best".

Read interpreter's post very carefully.

Conduct your battles with management in private, through the courts or however you like, including just quitting if BA is so awful an employer. There's a shortage of aircrew; I'm sure you'll find a job somewhere very soon. Not quite the same terms as BA, of course, but there you go, that's the real world.

[Skydrol Leak]

I can not believe all the moaning and complaints from these BA people! Face the fact that you are one of the "chosen" and more fortunate in UK more than any person working for easy, Ryanair,eastern or for that matter Air Berlin etc...
Be happy what you have,since 85% of people doing your job in this industry don't have the chance to even get their parking paid so...bugger off.

Cheers:)

[marlowe]

Skydrol failed the aptitude test did we??

[hautemude]

I've read some of the correspondence on this subject but not all because being a very old but not very bold ex BA pilot, I've spent the last month of my hard earned retirement on a loooong holiday. I do not understand why BALPA appears to be fighting for Open skies pilots to be on a common seniority list when they refused to let GSS co-pilots join the BA list but at the same time forced GSS to engage potential captains from mainline. If I have missed something, please tell me. I fully understand the threat to BA pilots and they have my support. However I think BALPA treated their GSS co-pilot members in a manner which is inconsistent with regard to their present position on Open Skies.

[Human Factor]

The GSS arrangement requires all BAWC flying to be returned in-house (probably with the co-pilots) if the operation ever requires more than four (?) B744s. My understanding is that was the best deal at the time. That protection still stands. Not ideal but there it is.

Perhaps if BA had been receptive to a similar arrangement for OS (something like if it ever requires more than the initial six aircraft, it reverts to mainline), we may not have found ourselves in the current predicament. Unfortunately, that would prevent BA from doing a QANTAS/Jetstar, which is probably why it never came up.

[Hand Solo]

Firstly, the GSS issue is discussed repeatedly in the previous BA ballot thread. I suggest you read that for the details. Secondly, do not confuse BALPA as a whole with the BACC. BALPAs job is to look after pilots as a whole, but not to divvy up BAs works for anyone who wants a share. The BACCs role is to protect the interests of BA pilots. The GSS deal was negotiated by the BACC as the price BA had to pay to operate 744Fs without the pilots on the mainline seniority list. If there were no secondees to GSS then there would be no GSS. Incidentally, the size and scope of GSS is tied up pretty tightly with BA. Any more than 4 freighters and the whole operation reverts to mainline. No such guarantees on offer from BA for Open Lies.

[orangedriver]

Skydrol - You (and many others posting here) have totally missed the point that BALPA and the BA pilots are trying to make. It is not about glorifying themselves, or not being happy with what they have, its about PROTECTING what they have. This is something many other pilot groups should start doing as well. There is a clear agenda amongst the British airlines to erode (further erode!) our T&Cs and it is our duty to protect the very same T&Cs.

[idol detent]

Capot:

But whatever the rights and wrongs of your case, for f***s sake spare us the sanctimonious bull and crocodile tears of ................

Sorry if you feel I was being sanctimonious. I prefer sincerity. You can, of course, choose as you wish. :rolleyes:


You are using your customers - the travelling public - and their anger and inconvenience as your weapon. That's what strikes are for. So cut the c**p.

Er, no Capot, BA management are using our passengers as their weapon of choice. Time & again, day in, day out, we voluntarily break our industrial agreements to keep the show on the road for the benefit of the travelling public (and rightly so). BA are now using our 'can-do, must-do' attitude against us-they think we will capitulate in the face of bad press and public disquiet in order to beat us. Sadly, this time, we've had enough. I will shed no tears, crocodile or otherwise, but I will (sanctimoniously) feel truly sorry for Joe Public caught in the crossfire....

If you want to get on your high-horse then suit yourself. It speaks volumes to me when all that someone can retort with is a bunch of expletives.


Skydrol Leak wrote:
I can not believe all the moaning and complaints from these BA people! Face the fact that you are one of the "chosen" and more fortunate in UK more than any person working for easy, Ryanair,eastern or for that matter Air Berlin etc...
Be happy what you have,since 85% of people doing your job in this industry don't have the chance to even get their parking paid so...bugger off.

You've obviously come in to this debate and shot from the hip. :ugh:

I would "be happy what you have" except that BA are going to use OpenSkies as a means of doing away with "what I have". I do consider myself more fortunate than others in this industry, but why would I want to let BA have its cake & eat it? So that I can be bitter & twisted in 5 years time wishing I'd had the backbone to stand up to these Corporate Muggers in 2008? I don't think so. I've given them increased productivity (~30% since c2001). I've given them 22% of my pension (2006/7) and I've given them licence to mess with my roster more to solve their Work Coverage problem. I'm not going to stand by and have them take my CURRENT T&Cs and have them supplanted with OS T&Cs without a fight.

since 85% of people doing your job in this industry don't have the chance to even get their parking paid so...bugger off

I don't get my parking paid either...costs me £400/year. And what's that got to do with the price of fish? Another cogent argument. Another expletive. :ugh: You're going to have to do better than that to convince me & my colleagues that we are all wrong and you are right.

I'm beginning to see why most of my colleagues avoid this site like the plague...you need the patience of a saint. Too many people jump in without educating themselves. Differing viewpoints I can take, but ignorance.........

Regards

id

[biddedout]

There are many pilots out there in other airlines who have a very good understanding of why you need to do this and support you regardless of whether they are on inferior conditions or not. That’s because they suffered at the hands of BA management through the five year fiasco that was BACX / Bacon. This company was created out of two reasonably successful regional airlines where pilot attrition rates were relatively low - particularly amongst Captains. Probably less than one trainer left per year. Three years into Bacon and well before WW really started swinging his axe, leaving rates were up to 25% and at least half the company were actively trying to find alternative employment.
Our great leader slashed half the bases, and any route which showed any sign of sucking business from LHR was stopped dead.

So having made such a mess of the regional subsidiary operation, why do BA managers think they can make a success of OS? What has changed? What will they do that is significantly different?

[Vino Collapso]

Sorry but was that a quote of 3,000 staff involved in this dispute? Why do I only see a very few posting on here in such an aggressive manner. Obviously Hand Solo and Idol Detent are leading stir mongerers for the union.

A couple of decades ago I had a choice of becoming a commercial pilot or going elsewhere in the aviation industry. I chose elsewhere and have never looked back. But I always held professional pilots in a fairly high esteem.

Certain industry should not go on strike, Police, Fireman, Ambulanceman etc. But pilots I always took to be above all this. To strike is to lower yourselves in the publics eyes.

A while ago there was a very long thread on PPrune about how pilots were not viewed the same way as many years ago. The industry had lost its charisma. Now you lot want to go and confirm that pilots are just the same as any other shop floor worker. Where has that magic and pride gone?

....and by the way, in response to a comment several pages back, I do not buy a ticket to ride based on cost alone. I have never flown Squeezy Jet or Rynanair and God willing never will. I have always paid to fly with the good guys. But now I wonder why.

( and no....Mr Walsh may be driven out in the end, fall on his sacrificial sword in good dramatic pose. But it will be a rubber 'stage' sword and his back pocket will be stuffed with a golden handshake.)

[Hand Solo]

The answer VC, is that most BA pilots don't bother with this place because it's full of trolls, envious types and people who can't be bothered to read the thread but want to air their grievances anyway. Most BA pilots stay away from here for the sake of their sanity.

Perhaps your slightly dewy eyed view of the profession has withstood the test of time. The unfortunate reality for us is that we are no longer regarded as professionals by anyone but our peers. We are a resource to be sweated, a cost to be reduced. Sure, our management mouth platitudes about their appreciation for us, but by their actions they are judged. You think striking is beneath us. I don't claim to occupy such a lofty position, but there seems to be a serious shortage of suggestions from the concerned public about how we should influence our management when they refuse to budge through months of negotiation and days of conciliation. The logical conclusion to draw is that you all believe we should throw our hands in the air and say "tough luck, we'll just have to bend over and take it". Well I'm afraid we don't see it that way. Pride doesn't pay the bills buddy, and I can't take Willie Walshs assurances to the bank.

[overstress]

Sorry but was that a quote of 3,000 staff involved in this dispute? Why do I only see a very few posting on here

Most of us are on the BALPA forum, because there is little point in engaging with those who are not prepared to understand the issues.

[idol detent]

Sorry but was that a quote of 3,000 staff involved in this dispute?

<sigh> VC you'll find out soon enough.

Why do I only see a very few posting on here in such an aggressive manner. Obviously Hand Solo and Idol Detent are leading stir mongerers for the union.

Hmm, 'stir mongerer'? 'Leading stir mongerer'? - first time for everything I suppose.
I'm not a rep - Bog Standard line pilot fighting for what I believe is right. As for aggressive...I only bite if yer naughty! :)

[hatcheth]

My message to the BA pilots is: Evolve or die. Your competitors are evolving

[londonmet]

hatcheth,

Here here!

L Met

[Juan Tugoh]

Evolve or die - thanks for that soundbite. Adds nothing to our understanding of the situation, but it's nice to hear the chants of the playground on this forum. I quite understand why most BA pilots do not bother with this nonsense and frequent places with debate at an intellectual level higher than that of the kindergarten.:ugh:

[windytoo]

Am I management or do I have a chip on my shoulder? The arrogance of a small number of people on both sides amazes me.

[overstress]

Skydrol leak said: I can not believe all the moaning and complaints from these BA people! Face the fact that you are one of the "chosen" and more fortunate in UK more than any person working for easy, Ryanair,eastern or for that matter Air Berlin etc...
Be happy what you have,since 85% of people doing your job in this industry don't have the chance to even get their parking paid so...bugger off.

The 'chosen' - ie chosen by BA having passed their selection procedure. You're very welcome to join us skydrol, we need 400-ish pilots in the next 12 months.

We are happy with what we have, we do not ask for more, we just need to update our agreements in the face of changing legislation. Confused about your parking comment.

Now you bugger off.. :}:)

[Capot]

You are using your customers - the travelling public - and their anger and inconvenience as your weapon.Er, no Capot, BA management are using our passengers as their weapon of choice.Did someone mention the playground? Let's agree that both sides are using the poor passengers as their weapon. Does it make any difference? The airline is going to hell in a handcart while this nonsense goes on. Any day now there won't be any passengers.

You (.............have totally missed the point that .........the BA pilots are trying to make.................its about PROTECTING what they have....we just need to update our agreements in the face of changing legislation. Confused .............Well, aren't we all.

[biddedout]

hatcheth

My message to the BA pilots is: Evolve or die. Your competitors are evolving


I am not BA, but I am aware of their terms and conditions. How do you think they can evolve? They are already working to limits or at least the artificial limits imposed by trying to work out of LHR. They have a good rostering system, which seems to be able to produce maxmum efficiency in terms of hours on seat, so what's the probem? They are paid well, but no more than their mainline competitors and probably not much more than the so called LoCo competitors. Time to command issues and the rempval of the FS pession probably means that some FO's will be signifcantly wore off over a career span than ther equivalents in the Charter / LOco World. They they do not have ridiculous allowances. They simply get Duty pay at a rate appropriate for touring round Europe and LH.


Please explain what you mean by adapting. Adapting to what level?


I work for a LoCo, am home vritually every night and at the moment am probably earling as much per flying hour as a BA LH capt. I also have my medicals paid for and free parking.

[hatcheth]

In terms of evolving, I mean that BA is not a state owned entity and BA staff do not have a job for life. Pilots are a commodity in an open market, as is all labour in today's global economy.

[idol detent]

Thanks for that Hatcheth. There is nothing in your two sentences that I was unaware of...

We have evolved over the years to be the most profitable airline in the world. How did we manage that? By standing still? Gimme strength....:ugh:

BA pilots have been accused of:

Using passengers as a weapon
Not talking
Being militant
Not being flexible
Stuck in our ways
Arrogant
Chosen
Lucky
etc etc

I have only posted 30 or so messages on this forum and am tiring of the sniping, envy, jealousy and downright hatred posted by a small number of persons who quite frankly have put forward no coherent argument as to why ~3000 pilots are wrong and that they are correct. All I hear is soundbites: so typical of GB 2008. Full of vitriol and bile with nothing much to say except expletives.

How sad that some of us who actually care about our passengers and post our reasoning are immediately set upon by people who should have stood up for themselves whilst they had the chance/backbone. And now all they have left is their bitter animosity for comfort. How sad.

And with that, to the relief of a few no doubt, I will sit out the rest of this thread. I have tried to explain our reasoning and the impact that striking will have on us personally. Some, it would seem, have no intention of listening, and that, for me, is the most frustrating thing of all.

Good luck HS, Overstress & others - you have greater patience for this than I do.

[Stoic]

Pilots are a commodity in an open market

So, if pilots have any sense and it is legal to do so, they should sell their labour collectively as, for example, British GPs do. If they don't, they will end up as an evolutionary failure.

Regards

Stoic

[Ramrise]

Good luck to all BA pilots. I sincerely hope that they stay the course and not waver an inch. Such a blatant attack on T&C's can only be met with the fiercest conviction and willingness to see it through.

I only hope that the group of pilots I belong to will show the same determination in our coming battle with management.

Regards,

Ramrise

[whattimedoweland]

Good luck to BALPA and the BA Pilots.:D

WTDWL.

[757 Speedbrakes]

Good luck to BALPA and the BA pilots.

I fly for another UK airline but if sucessful, BALPA will be shown to be stronger and it'll make other airlines sit up and take note.

[gatbusdriver]

As for the pathetic pilots on here who don't support the BA pilots, grow up, why on earth do some people like to see others brought down to their level. I would rather get my T's&C's up to BA pilots (unlikely in the charter world, but we continue to fight for the best we can achieve)

As for people masquerading (excuse spelling) as upset pax etc (although i'm sure a couple of you are for real), p:mad: off. Your lack of reasoning or understanding of this industry qualifies most of you to write for the Mail. There are some very patient people here who have tried to explain everything time and time again, yet you refuse to listen.

[Capot]

We have evolved over the years to be the most profitable airline in the world.

OMG. Give me strength. Is the propensity to strike among BA employees because they actually believe that?

[overstress]

Capot. I have created a thread in Jetblast, here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3967327#post3967327) just for you to post your foul-mouthed rantings - enjoy! :D

For those following the substance of this thread, expect BALPA's next move to be announced tomorrow, after having taken legal advice.

[sunnysmith]

Well I thought that I should let you know:

I have important travel plans with BA (life changing) but I still support the strike.

Why are we in the UK always looking to put down others!

I want to protect my future just as you would yours!!!

sunny

[MrBernoulli]

Sunny, thank you for that!

BA management, if thats what you can call them, are going to get a fight. As for that Wee Willy Wotsit, he's going to get a !"£$%^ up the &*()+.

[interpreter]

Of course you do - and so does everybody else but unfortunately in life that which you deem as being best for yourself and colleagues with similar skills is not always best for the whole company.

Let's be clear, I empathise with your cause but I do not sympathise with it. The company MUST advance and grow and change to meet current or future market conditions and whether you like it or not Walsh has been hired to achieve that objective. The change is coming and OpenSkies is going to affect many but if that is to be the case then BALPA has to say to itself "This change is coming so what can we do to fight for the best possible terms and conditions in the light of this change" That "fight" as I have called it is really a negotiating attitude to do the best it can realising that when all the dust has settled the company will achieve its purpose or go under - as all businesses do. BA is not privileged to be isolated from this commercial pressure.

Many industries go through crisis times similar to that with BA and some do worse than others but BA should with its size be able to capitaise on all the benefits of OpenSkies and if it thrives creates secure employment. Perhaps not as attractive as before but employment.

If I was a member of BALPA, which I am not, nor do I work for any airline, I would say "go back again and start negotiating terms that are the best you can and secure modifications for the benefit of your members, in the light of the inevitable changes, that are acceptable to the management".

Walking away from the table or striking is definitely NOT negotiating.

[SR71]

OMG. Give me strength. Is the propensity to strike among BA employees because they actually believe that?

Suggest you do some more research Capot. So far, you've got a D-. Wikipedia is a good place to start...amongst others.

BA were recently fined £350 million for price fixing.

Tell me....as a customer do you like being ripped off? Or is that alright because your company pays for your ticket?

I find it curious that "customers" come on this site and want to defend those that defraud them?

Please give me your money instead if you don't want it.

Still, I digress.

[Shaka Zulu]

Real shame seeing the vitriol spouted by some of you....
I do not understand how anyone closely related to the airline industry can be so blinkered to the truth...
Having flown for a low cost carrier for a good while I know exactly what it is like on the other side of the fence, and fyi wrt to pilots it's ALL the same!!!
I came to BA for reasons, one of them certainly ISN'T Pay.
Command was gained after 5 years in my LoCo, Pay was at least 30% better than the equivalent F/O in BA shorthaul.
I've taken a paycut for the first 15 years I spend in this company, I do 900hrs/year and have to live with the cr@p of London Heathrow. I get force drafted when I want to spend time with my family and have been asked to give back 25% of my pension.

However, this issue is NOT about T&C's. Bother to read the threads and listen to guys that are trying to educate you about what 'management' is trying to do here!!
I've worked hard to get where I am and in so doing I am proud to be working for BA.
I'm not ignorant of the real world out there, been there done it.

To say that BA pilots haven't evolved, grow up and smell the roses. Obviously not doing any research and getting on with shooting from the hip is making this industry a pile of SH1T.
As a complete moderate and someone that takes genuine interest in the Managerial aspects of flying, (Fwiw a degree study in management and law) I still arrive at the same position as 86% of my fellow pilots in BALPA.

This has got nothing do with a proper discussion or council with an independent body.
Unfortunately they won't reason, what do you want me to do? Just give in to management and let's all drive this profession down the drain? So that we can sit on this forum and finally agree that it's sh1t and a real shame it had to come to this?
Guys, have some foresight, it's what's needed in aviation anyway to deal with certain emergencies.

[Capot]

SR71

I can't make head or tail of your post; what did you think I meant?

As for research, I did some before posting, as it happens; I compared BA's last published profit figures with certain other airlines'. On none of the many ways of interpreting the description "the most profitable airline in the world" does the assertion that BA is "the most profitable airline in the world" stand up.

It seems to me important that BA's pilots, if they really think that BA is "the most profitable airline in the world" and thus able to suffer large losses with impunity, are gently told that this is not the case.

That fine didn't help. either.

I hope that overstressed doesn't take umbrage again at another foul-mouthed rant.

[PPRuNeUser0178]

Obviously I do not work for BA.

But as a fellow aviator and BALPA member I am right behind the BA BALPA members.

In EZY we are facing our own managments' tactics for watering down the Ts and Cs of pilots with contracts on the mainland that are dissgraceful as well as divisive, that aim to break any union within our ranks.

BA should be the yard stick by which others are measured by. I have no desire to work for them or work out of London, but they are our national flag carrier and what happens there has implications for us all.

The reponse from the EZY membership to such threats has been, frankly, pathetic. I am hopeful that the example set here by BA BALPA members will be an inspiration to our membership ( and the fence sitters ) and demonstrate that when our employers become unreasonable and continue to devalue what we as professionals are worth, then, maybe, just maybe, we may be able to recover some of the ground that has been lost over the last decade or so, that has seen the profession slide to feed the self serving interests of our respective airline management boards.

I know this is about more than T's and C's, it is about protecting the future of the job.

Looks like the BA management are about to get dirty though, stand tall chaps, look em in the eyes, you have been more than reasonable, whilst they have gone in the opposite direction. Strike action will, of course, upset Joe Publics plans, and your management will try to lay that blame firmly at your door. At the end of the day when all reasonable efforts have been exhausted and still your employer keeps on this track, then what choice is a membership left with? You have the moral high ground here.

Best of Bristish to you all.

[Capt Kremin]

Good luck all BA pilots. You have taken the lessons learnt in place like Australia, Spain and elsewhere about the intentions of airline managements everywhere and are prepared to draw a line in the sand.

Those of you criticising the actions of BA pilots have little concept of the stakes involved.

[pingopango]

The fighting talk is getting stronger, unless there is compromise it will all end in tears.

Striking always seems petulant even when the cause is great. This strike may serve to strengthen the BA brand in the long run as the management will surely win the PR battle. As a nation, we have seen too many strikes of late and with a recession looming and the pilot market capacity shrinking this could end badly.

[Capot]

For those who object to Joe Public having his/her say about all this; if you don't like it don't use a public forum. There is a perfectly good BALPA forum, probably several, for you to stoke up your indignation in without opposition.


Strike action will, of course, upset Joe Publics plans, and your management will try to lay that blame firmly at your door.At the risk of being boringly repetitive, Joe Public, as one non-BA pilot contempuously calls those who pay his salary, doesn't give a toss whose fault it is. To her and him, it looks like two children blaming each other in front of an adult. A pox on both your houses, she and he are thinking.

She and he will just find another airline and never, ever, come back to BA. Tens of thousands have done that already after other self-inflicted disruptions, and more are joining them every day. The utter chaos BAA have created at LHR, with BA's assistance, isn't helping, either. many are finding another airport as well as another airline.

So tell me again about "winning" a strike?

[sunnysmith]

The company MUST advance and grow and change to meet current or future market conditions and whether you like it or not Walsh has been hired to achieve that objective

It will; and I want to be part of it! I also want to be suitably rewarded for my contribution! I -unfortunatly- no longer believe any of the rubbish that our managers come out with. We can start open skies as BA proper and still make a profit - of that I'm sure. I'm also sure that this venture is designed to destroy the job I love and reduce us (pilots) to nothing better then 'drivers airframe'.

If the public are happy with this then god help us. Personally I prefer motivated, enthusiastic professionals up front. I KNOW these people are perfect for the job and have no doubt in their abilities. We are not 'flight sim' pilots, no disrespect intended, but the real thing is very different.

If I was a member of BALPA, which I am not, nor do I work for any airline, I would say "go back again and start negotiating terms that are the best you can and secure modifications for the benefit of your members, in the light of the inevitable changes, that are acceptable to the management".


BALPA has decided the 'terms' that are best for us. I support BALPA.

Sunny

[SR71]

Crockpot,

As for research, I did some before posting, as it happens; I compared BA's last published profit figures with certain other airlines'. On none of the many ways of interpreting the description "the most profitable airline in the world" does the assertion that BA is "the most profitable airline in the world" stand up.


BA has consistently been one of the most profitable airlines in the world for the last two decades. In fact, I believe it was off the back of this profitability that they coined the phrase "Worlds Favourite Airline"?

Try: http://www.atwonline.com/channels/dataAirlineEconomics/World_Airline_Report_2006.pdf

Only KLM/Air France, Lufthansa & FeDeX were more profitable in 2006.

It seems to me important that BA's pilots, if they really think that BA is "the most profitable airline in the world" and thus able to suffer large losses with impunity, are gently told that this is not the case.


Anyone who works for BA knows that its ongoing profitability in lieu of how much inefficiency there is in the system is staggering.

Giovanni Bisangani, IATA CEO said recently that in 2002, airlines needed fuel to be < ~$20/barrel to scrape into profitability. These days they're profitable at $70/barrel.

Somehow, the airlines have managed to cope with a 400% rise in one of their principal costs. I figure we're a pretty adaptable bunch inspite of the fact that interpreter thinks we're fossilised.

BA is hedged 50% for 2008 @ $81/barrel I believe?

BA paid up £350 million in fines recently without batting an eyelid so to speak.

BA pilots do not wish to see the profit their company makes squandered (unlike, it must be said, some BA managers, who are willing to potentially gamble away 40,000 people's livelihood by indulging in some after hours "price fixing"....perhaps over a bottle of 1900 Chateau Lafite Rothschild?) and neither do they believe that their T&C's are the difference between liquidation and profitability.

So, BA is not about to collapse in a heap if OS pilots were to be paid BA Mainline pilot wages....especially if we're only talking about 6 airframes worth of pilots.

There is still lots of fat in the system.

In fact, I personally am not even convinced that BALPA & the BACC should have conceded that there exists a defensible argument for OS pilots to have a different set of T&C's either...but then I haven't seen the propaganda they've pedalled on that basis.

But, tell me, who exactly are OS's competitors?

And on what T&C's are their pilots flying those routes?

The argument for inflated City salaries is, that good money makes good money. Why exactly doesn't that apply in the case of pilots then?

And as for customers who still can't quite see that BA has been defrauding them and that maybe the pilots are doing them a favour....

:rolleyes:

[CaptKremin]

I'll say it again - this website is a frickin' disgrace.

The label says 'PROFESSIONAL PILOTS NETWORK'!?
It is in my ass.

And since we're talking about 'adaptation' and evolution' - I was a 'launch customer' on this site.
Not in my current name of course, my original ID was cancelled to satisfy the howls from the mob of anti-professional-pilot ranters, wannabes, and managers who now constitute the heaving mass of ninnies here.

I shudder now to think how much time I wasted here not so many years back.
But thank Christ, I'm cured now.

Its no longer top of my 'Favourites' list (jeez...:ugh: it was once my 'Homepage'!). Now it isn't even ON the list.

I stick my head in here about once a month at maximum, unless there's something going on, like this BA thing, in which case I might look in every few days.
I've made two or three posts in the last 3 months. But thats it.

This website is IRRELEVANT to Professional Pilots. Its a JOKE FORUM.
End of story.

I support the BA pilots in whatever action they take.
Stand strong guys. :D

[kaikohe76]

re Post from Capt Kremin.

O dear, what a poor sad old so & so, just the sort of person & attitude who the travelling public can well do without, let alone BA themselves.

I fully acknowledge your entitlement to put your opinions as you have done.

However, I suggest it people such as yourself, with such stronly held & views (totally wrong in my own opinion), who are driving the pax, remember them? away in droves.

At no stage do you appear to relate to or consider the passenger at all, these surely are the very people who pay vastly inflated BA seat prices, to put their bums on BA seats & in doing so contribue to inlated BA salaries & pensions.

I have not used either BA as an airline or EGLL as an airport for many years & most certainly have no intention of doing so in the future. I prefer to use a carrier & airport who will treat me with at least some tact, consideration, respect & thank me for my business. In my opinion, BA & EGLL come nowhere this.

Suggestions for airline & airports where a passenger is afforded a sensible level of courtesy & understanding, Singapore A/Ls & Changi, Air New Zealand & Auckland

Get a life BA Pilots, get your collective heads out of the sand & stop behaving like a lot of imature school girls. You & EGLL may just wake up one day & find all the pax have gone.

[411A]

The label says 'PROFESSIONAL PILOTS NETWORK'!?


So it does, CaptKremin, and I'm one of those, for the last 40 years...and that is exactly why I choose to post here.

It would appear that you have a disagreement with others that don't happen to agree with your position...and that is apparently the problem with BA pilots as well.

Get used to it, it ain't gonna change.:=

[hellsbrink]

kaikohe76

Can ya explain where airports (especially EGLL) suddenly come into this? Last I looked, neither BA or their pilots owned said place/places. In fact, the two other airlines you mention do arrive/depart to/from EGLL so if you are going to fly to the UK you will still go through the place whether you use BA or not. And if you mean BA's check-in people, then they ain't the durned pilots so why the sudden attempt at a diversion?


(Astonishing, absolutely astonishing)

[kaikohe76]

Hellsbrink,

Thanks for your reply & fair enough you do have a point of course.

I do applogise if I gave the impression of moving off the point of this current discussion, that most certainly was not my intention. My intention was to highlight the fact, that yet again, if any strike takes place, it will be the pax who will come of a very much second best.

However, as so often when industrial disputes take place, in particular within the aviation industry, it's always the travelling public who get the very thin end of the wedge. You are of course absolutely correct with your comments regarding just who owns & runs EGLL & other UK airports as well for that matter. Would you not agree though, that as BA are surely the major operator out of LHR, they must be able to impose some influence on day to day operations.

Regarding the specific BA Pilots situation, here we have highly trained professionals appearing to totally forget the plight of any pax. As so often happens in these circumstances, it is the pax who loose out. My decision not to use either BA or LHR is purely personal, as I wish to be treated with some consideration anyway. I would suggest though, that many other pax will share my view & will be looking at both other airlines & airports.

Thanks again.

[hellsbrink]

So BA tell Singapore and Air NZ what to do at EGLL?

I do NOT think so.

Stop stirring.

[kaikohe76]

Hellsbrink,

You are clearly unable to grasp the meaning & intention in my reply to your post. I have no need or intention to stir anything, apart from my tea of course! I was just attempting to suggest, that when it comes to strike action, BA staff in particular have a rather poor record in thir consideration for the travelling pax. As far as the SVQ & ANZ question is concerned, in my opinion if I travel with either of these airlines, I am confident I will be treated with consideration & respect, something BA appeared to loose many moons ago.

I dont think I am the enemy, I hung up my uniform quite some time ago & thus have a choice of who I fly with & via which airport.

I suppose we could always start a conversation about passenger's baggage!!!!

[overstress]

kaikohe76

I would have thought it was self-evident that the passengers won't be going anywhere if the pilots go on strike :ugh:

Likewise, if postal workers strike, no-one gets any mail etc

Passenger welfare is part of our everyday life in BA and it is offensive of you to suggest otherwise.

Please direct your ire towards our intransigent and dictatorial management who refuse to listen to one of the most loyal and 'onside' group of employees in BA.

I am on the lookout for these 'droves' of passengers 'flocking' away from BA but I don't see them. But you haven't used BA for years, or LHR.

You say Get a life BA Pilots, get your collective heads out of the sand & stop behaving like a lot of imature school girls. You & EGLL may just wake up one day & find all the pax have gone.
Today 00:37

If I was going to write a cliched anti-BA pilot posting, that would be pretty close :D

You have hung up your uniform some time ago, those of us still in the business are being driven to this position, not through choice, I can assure you. I hope you are enjoying your retirement, though.

[hellsbrink]

kaikohe76


So again you are lumping BA pilots with ALL BA staff, including those on the ground. And since you dislike EGLL so much I guess we'll never see you in the UK as that is where both your favourite airlines fly to.

Also, again, what does THIS

Would you not agree though, that as BA are surely the major operator out of LHR, they must be able to impose some influence on day to day operations.


have to do with BA pilots?

Now, if you are not stirring, pray tell me what your little rant against EGLL and BA STAFF have to do with their PILOTS. There is a BIG difference between the guys who fly the planes and those at check-in/ground crew. Also, for your information, on the various times I have flown BA, both long and short haul, I have never been treated with anything less than courtesy, professionalism and respect. That may be because I treat these people with the same standards, so get treated in kind. Now, if BA management had been treating their pilots with the same standards as I apply to the BA STAFF (I generally don't get to speak to the pilots whilst they are working, they have other things to do) then you would find that no pax would be inconvenienced in any way because there would be no need for a strike. Guess what, BA management don't work that way, as we have seen in the past.

To your witterings about "baggage", again point me to what that has to do with PILOTS and remember that there are far more factors involved when you think of the baggage handling issues experienced in recent times (previous 7 years).

And, for god's sake, get a spellchecker. It's LOSE, not LOOSE (that's one of my pet hates, and not necessarily a go at you).

[interpreter]

KR71. I neither stated nor suggested that BA pilots were fossilised. I was merely trying to highlight the fact that the negotiations being carried out on behalf of the pilots by BALPA would not be enhanced through strike action. May I dare to suggest that you tell others on the board what you genuinely believe will be the end result of strike action? Acceptance of BALPA requirements by the company? No public hostility? No loss of business in the long term to BA? No change to pilot Ts & Cs?

Please, the best interests of ALL aircrew are negotiated around a table with strong management negotiating with strong union leaders. However, the company may have the negotiating benefit of getting a "handle" on the aircrew view but how much of a "handle" do BALPA have on the plans and financial projections of the company? Believe you me, the best employers from the standpoint of job security are those that are most profitable.

[overstress]

[thread creep]CaptKremin: if it's any consolation, I used to be an avid PPRuNer as well - I've been here nearly since the start (despite my 'member since' tag incorrectly saying 2001)

The trolls, anglers, journos and others on here have (almost) driven me away.

The website is great and the mods do a really good job :8 :) but the open access coupled with people's fascination for aviation means that all too often, we have rank amateurs and the ignorant telling the professionals how it should be done.[\thread creep]

(Standing by for accusations of arrogance - I am in fact a BA pilot, so expecting double helpings of flaming... :} ... nothing less than I would seem to deserve on PPRuNe 2008 )

[overstress]

interpreter:

Please, the best interests of ALL aircrew are negotiated around a table with strong management negotiating with strong union leaders.

We would like nothing better than your description above. We feel our leaders are strong, but they have been frustrated in their efforts to negotiate with BA for months over this issue. (BA refused to even talk to us about it when we raised it - for 9 months!)

Strong management take their workforce along when seeking to make changes. We suspect that our management have a masterplan they do not wish to share with us, one not involving our futures.

[M80]

BALPA were in a bit of a bind and BA have played it perfectly. BALPA had to go back to the tables to avoid looking like the instigators of trouble and then BA were able to turn round and make it look like BALPA walked out.

Stick with it guys. Nice to see pilots taking action over other pilots conditions, and aware of the effect that will have on their own. Hope it all works out for you all in BA.

[interpreter]

Indeed you are quite correct. However, if your understanding is that the management "are not up to scratch" - and you could be right - will a strike help? It is only the other side of the coin to a "lock-out". Neither has ever produced the desired end result.

The unions must be saying to the management " Conciliation did not work. We suggest another urgent meeting to see if we can reach an agreement that will give the company aircrew terms that mean that they that are not hostile to your plans and that make them feel part of the future and recognised for their contribution by the company."
There has to be a route forward - striking is a backward step.

How would you feel if the company decided to hold a "lock-out"? Co-operative? Co-erced? Stubborn?

I have to say that if the company will not even see the union - and I am taking your word for it - then they feel that there is nothing constructive that can be said. The union now have to kill that idea and promote themselves as being part of the solution, not the problem, and an essential player in the future of the company.

[Fake Sealion]

Is there scheduled to be a ruling today concerning the proposed injunction?

[overstress]

I have to say that if the company will not even see the union - and I am taking your word for it - then they feel that there is nothing constructive that can be said. The union now have to kill that idea and promote themselves as being part of the solution, not the problem, and an essential player in the future of the company.

The relevant managers all have the mobile phone numbers of BACC members programmed into their own mobile phones.

BALPA has taken the course you describe (part of the solution) over pensions and work coverage, in full and open discussions with the company. We have run into a brick wall this time - why? We can only conclude that there is a very big hidden agenda.

Striking may well be a backward step, but BA management can avoid us taking it at any time, by returning to the table with some movement from their intransigent position.

[M80]

...the idea of trusting management transparency... :}

[Capot]

Not for the first time, I am stunned by views in this thread.

If any BA staff member thinks that BA's fortunes, its pilots' fortunes, and the rest of its staff's fortunes are not inextricably linked to the way LHR is run, BA is doomed.

The travelling public does NOT care what the contributory factors are that make travelling from LHR an experience never to be repeated. The place is a badly-managed s**t-hole, where they get delayed, badly-treated by staff, harried, bullied, and threatened when they dare to protest by ill-trained, ignorant people whose only concern is their right not to be treated the same way in return.

A strike by any group of BA staff simply makes all this 10 times worse, not just for BA's passengers if there are any. And that's why the two are linked and pilots should realise that.

And once again interpreter, who actually has to sell BA's products, has produced a post that everyone concerned should read carefully.

[overstress]

Not for the first time, I reply to Capot. Can't you stop swearing? Have you got Tourettes?

I think you will find that Mr Walsh and his team have plans to break the 'inextricable' link with LHR by moving into other nations' airports instead.

BA pilots are quite willing to help the company with its plans - however, the company needs to want us 'on board' - it would seem it prefers to crow about the brand strengths whilst rejecting one of its key employee groups.

Once again: We know that if we strike, passengers will be inconvenienced. Please, I think most people realise this. We 'go the extra mile' for our passengers every day. We are talking about our entire futures.

[X-37]

I flew for BA for nearly 30 years. Apart from the 'Marshall Era' I have always thought that the Airline was run by idiots.
No sane person could think that striking is a good idea but what are BALPA supposed to do? Roll over yet again?
BALPA havent had this much balls since the days of Derek Ellis and the refusal to fly the 747s.

[GriffinPT]

I am always blown away at how freely people seem to feel about commenting on the career prospects and T&C's of other people.

Naturally BA customers are going to be affected by any industrial action that any group of BA employees vote to take.

The issue here is a grievance that the BA pilots have with the BA management, THATS THEIR BUSINESS. People are going to be affected by this industrial action, this is hardly a shock, just as patients are affected by nurses strikes, pupils by teachers strikes.

Taking strike action is a right that any employee has that belongs to a trade union. Of course people have the right to an opinion, but, ultimately, apart from inconvenience, all the why's and therefore's are actually none of their business.

All the professional women and men that fly BA's planes, day in, day out are trying to do is to protect what they have and to protect what their future colleagues should have.

BA is hardly on the bread line, greed is the only thing that is driving the current management team at BA. They do have a MASSIVE agenda which they are keeping quiet about. They are limited for growth at Heathrow, instead of p*ssing off the entire customer contact staff ( which currently accounts for only 30% of the workforce ) their growth plans should be looking towards a merger or an aquisition and not the cheapening of an icon within the aviation world.

[BOAC]

Overstress - we know each other and have discussed this topic before. I fully sympathise with your assessment of PPrune's 'condition' but it has to be remembered that UNLESS you and your mates visit and post here, you will not be fully aware of the feelings of those 'outside' the BA pilot force - and they are important on the coming media battleground.

You - and everyone - as always, need to learn to ignore the rabid 'anti' posts and the 'stirring' posts.

You and the rest of the pilots always need to recognise that on the BA BALPA forum, as with the old BA Compuserve forum and the BA private forum here, posting/talking will simply produce a cosy impression of support from like-minded folk with the same concerns (apart, of course, from those who did not vote for the strike motion).

I suspect the 'real', sensible public can see the problems you face and will grudgingly accept your proposed action. You all have to hope that, unlike the last few 'issues' the BA pilot force has faced, BALPA have a cohesive PR plan in place and will not let BA management run rings around them in the media as in the past.

[SR71]

interpreter,

May I dare to suggest that you tell others on the board what you genuinely believe will be the end result of strike action? Acceptance of BALPA requirements by the company? No public hostility? No loss of business in the long term to BA? No change to pilot Ts & Cs?


OK, I'll have a stab...

Personally, I don't think there will be a strike.

BA turn over, what, £30 million a day?

Whats the difference between the cost of a Mainline crew (i.e., one Cap & 1 FO) on, say, PP12, and an OS crew?

£30K?

Multiply that by 42 (on the basis that 6 a/c, crewed at 7 per a/c means they need 42 crews to fly the program) is £1.26 million PER YEAR.

Now lets put this in context.

BA's recent fine would, therefore, pay for the difference for 300 years of OS operation flown by mainline crew!

Conversely, what BA stand to loose in turnover for one days strike, would pay for 24 years of operation of OS by Mainline crew!

Of course the analysis is simplistic but you get a feel for the figures involved.

Now, if WW had the intention of growing OS to 150 a/c, then the saving is still only ~£30 million i.e., one days turnover.

Crazy thing is BA pilots aren't even asking for parity of T&C's! However, the inclusion of OS pilots on the Mainline seniority list will essentially mean that the wage contribution of the total pilot workforce to the total cost base will be somewhere between what it would be if there was no inclusion of OS pilots on the seniority list and where it would be if Mainline pilots flew the OS program.

So I reckon, if there is no hidden agenda, BA ought to roll over right now because they're starting to look pretty unreasonable from where I am sitting.

As for public hostility, BAA have far more to answer for...they run the airports not BA.

Go on....shoot me down.

:ok:

[GS-Alpha]

SR71

Whilst I do not believe your figures are entirely correct, they are ballpark close enough. Your post puts this whole affair into perspective, and clearly demonstrates that BA have an ulterior motive here.

Your summation that there will be no strikes is a possibility. I think BA will play every dirty trick in the book to prevent the strikes; only then, if they fail, will they consider giving us our schedule K amendments. I feel if we actually go down the road of strikes, they will be long and bloody. I hope it does not come to that, but knowing the arrogance of BA, I would not be surprised if we waste a fortune, for no particular reason.

Either way, I think the end result will be the scrapping of Openskies. Then a short time into the future, BA will start using it's own resources, with no disguise, to operate the very routes that Openskies was going to do.

[Slim20]

So far BA management have done nothing "wrong". They haven't broken any agreements, unilaterally reduced our T&C's, nor been proven to have lied in any OS discussions (if they had we certainly would have been told by BACC reps). This is pre-emptive action by the BACC based on seemingly related events on the other side of the world.

Also, the BACC appear to be doing the "right" thing. They have identified a potential threat to the BA members' future earnings and promotion potential. They have addressed these concerns with BA, and have had unsatisfactory replies. They have followed the correct IR procedure and have secured a massive vote of support from the members.

However, let's remember - OpenSkies has not flown a single passenger yet! We are expected to harm ourselves and our families by striking for a company that doesn't even in actual fact exist whose so far non-existent pilots may not even want BA seniority once it's up and running?

I'm sure the passengers who have cancelled flights, rearranged their travel, or once again wearily resigned themselves to miserable disruption will join the loaders, drivers, CS agents, heck, even the cabin crew to thank us at the end of the day for putting all of their employment in jeopardy over what is in effect an exercise in conjecture, speculation and worst-case projection based on an Australian precedent which so far hasn't produced one piece of evidence that any Qantas pilot is materially worse off over three years after Jetstar began operations.

Stop this adversarial fighting talk and let's see a reasonable solution.

[GearUp CheerUp]

Slim20

Its no use waiting until Open Skies is flying with its own MSL, because then it will be too late to do anything about it

[Slim20]

Its no use waiting until Open Skies is flying with its own MSL, because then it will be too late to do anything about it

I disagree. In view of the Company's written assurances, if OS begins to affect mainline T&C's then we have an unimpeachable reason for industrial action - the Company will be clearly in the "wrong" as they have reneged on their promises.

Plenty of people will say there is precedent for the Company doing this - I would agree, but then query why there has been no precedent for IA by the BACC in the wake of these broken agreements?

Why now, and why this issue? We let BA have the compromise on NAPS, even though it was a compromise. Likewise the Work Coverage agreement. Why is there no room for compromise in this? It makes us look like hidebound reactionaries, protectionist and paranoid, happy to damage the company to secure an agreement which will be commercially more damaging in the future.

Not me, thanks.

[GS-Alpha]

Slim20

Which airline do you think BA will throw all of it's resources at? Will it be the one with the best operating margin? If we are not getting the resources we will die, OS will grow, and that will be the end of our jobs. There will be no action that we can take, because anything we do will just accelerate our demise.

The question you have to ask is, "Why are BA prepared to push us to a strike?" They would not take the financial hit if they thought we would still be able to defend ourselves later. This is the battle for them. If they win it, they have beaten us for good. There will be nothing we can do to prevent our downfall if we lose.

Not me, thanks
Fortunately, at least 84% of us disagree with you. We will end up protecting you, whether you realise that you need it or not.

[Marty-Party]

It seems that a corner stone of BAs argument is that there may be a future cost liability if OS pilots are on the MSL.

Surely if OS is a booming success, a lot of OS pilots will not want to join mainline as they will get earlier commands and hence better pay by staying within OS.

Alternatively, if OS fails, then the OS pilots who have passed the BA recruitment process will make up some of the 250 pilots required for mainline this year (assuming that BA agree to employing OS pilots using the same selection criteria)

The middle ground is the problem area..........but BA do not know what will happen anymore than Balpa do.

BA managers have continuously highlighted the fact that Balpa are threatening IA to protect something that may not happen. But surely BA are also guilty of not re-writing the mainline agreements to protect something that may not happen.

[ShortfinalFred]

PPrune network isn't really a Rumour Network, its' a propaganda network these days,or at least it is for some. It intrigues me that the BA Pilot posters', in the overwhelming majority, refer to detailed and accurate arguments that show why they have taken the stance they have whereas the nay sayers are either a) new posters with no previous track record on pprune or b) the same old pilot haters of yore like 411a who'se sole mantra seems to be that pilots are worth no more than a baggage loader, (no disrespect to a hard physical job), with his attendant glee at every single backwards step he sees in pilot pay.

I have a strong suspicion that many of the nay sayers have an axe to grind that has a lot less to do with being Joe Public,(not an insult, just a phrase in ordinary parlance, by the way), and a lot more with being involved with the management side of BA or other companies with an interest in scr*wing BA pilot pay. We haven't even had Mr John Torrode of the Daily M*il with his specialist "Pilot - Hater" articles yet - to come, no doubt. Now that BALPA have exhausted every avenue with BA I suggest BA pilots pretty much ignore most of the pilot-hating/baiting posted here, (most do anyway, I am sure). The contempt with which BA treat pretty much all its frontline staff beggars belief. BALPA will win and BA may yet be a far better airline for it.

[Slim20]

Which airline do you think BA will throw all of it's resources at?

Mainline LHR: Terminal 5, at least 12 A380s, up to 42 787's, more 777's, A318s, more A320s, 250 pilots this year alone.

Openskies: 6 surplus 757s, 70 pilots (so far, with no growth plans in place yet)

I'm not scared enough to strike on that scoreline

[GS-Alpha]

Slim20

Do you remember around the time when BA wanted to close the FSS pensions to new employees? We were balloted, and everyone said it would be at least a decade before BA came after existing employees' pensions. How long did we wait? Oh, I think it was about a year! (I saw that coming and voted no by the way, but that is by and by).

The future looks pretty good for us at the moment. Yes we are getting all of these new aircraft. And where will all the old ones go I wonder? You guessed it, Openskies. Then once Openskies reached 'critical mass', the tides will turn and we will be on the decline. I do not know how many years you have left in the company, but from your stance, I'd guess not many.

[Dave Bloke]

For anyone who still thinks this strike is actually about Open Skies (Slim20 take note), please re-read this thread and the other related threads.

The strike is about amendments to Schedule K of the pilot's Operating Agreement. It is NOT about Open Skies per se.

Schedule K is a scope clause which protects career opportunities for BA pilots, specifically that BA mainline pilots must fly any BA mainline aircraft of more than 100 seats out of the UK and any BA aircraft out of London. The dispute is about whether or not this agreement should be extended to cover European operation.

Open Skies has made the news as this is what triggered the current disagreement but the strike is about Schedule K. The law in the UK does not allow you to strike for something which might happen which is why it is not about Open Skies and is about amendments to Schedule K.

[overstress]

BOAC - thank you for your words. I take on board your advice; it isn't an easy ride on here. I will keep on posting, I think it's worthwhile, after all, how else will the outside world get to know our viewpoint. I think our arguments are right and I will continue to defend them. :)

[Slim20]

Fair enough Dave. I'm happy to stand corrected on that.

GS-Alpha, likewise, should it turn out that way

[Dave Bloke]

Slim,

I guess you mean GSS but it would be nice. Just referring to your earlier post, the "score" is not what we're worried about. It's the "yet".;)

[sidtheesexist]

Slim20 - are you a regular BA line pilot and if so, are you a BALPA member?

[pedroboy]

HI again,

This is for all the BALPA pilots out there. I am a member of "Joe Public", a student from the USA studying at King's College in fact. I have family coming out here on the 19th of March via BA. I was wondering if any of you had heard any strikes dates being thrown around? I support you in your fight, but I just need to make sure my family can get out here somehow so if the 19th looks like a date it could happen, knowing now rather than later would be a great help for me.

Thank you

[Dave Bloke]

pedro,

Nothing announced yet but I would guess you'll hear something today or tomorrow.

[Dwain Dibley]

I'm joining BA next month and I'd like to know what the immediate implications are for guys and gals like me.

[Dave Bloke]

Hopefully it'll all be done and dusted by next month. If you're a BALPA member, I suggest you get in touch with them.

[JGMagee]

I have no axe to grind here - except perhaps that in my occasional encounters with BA management I've been less than impressed.
But I wonder if there is any way pilots can emerge victorious from this, short of a BA climbdown? If there's a strike, it's reasonable to assume the company's interests and business prospects will be damaged. Surely that will damage the interests of the pilots too? Aren't you in a bind here?

[sidtheesexist]

We are in a bind here - quite right - damned if we do and damned if we don't.

We either (1) believe BA's assurances and back down or (2) stick to our guns and heed the not inconsiderable evidence/experience/opinion and face down this THREAT NOW...........

What do you recommend?

[Tandemrotor]

NOTHING could damage the interests of BA pilots more than if they were to keel over and accept this deceitful mess!

enough said?

[overstress]

The company is rather hoping we will back down. As to our interests, we have looked into a crystal ball provided by QANTAS and others, seen how BA plans our future and decided to alter it....

[JGMagee]

I don't know enough about it to recommend anything. I was wondering what is the hard-headed calculation that leads you to choose between "damned if we do and damned if we don't"?

[JGMagee]

I don't know enough about it to recommend anything. I'm assuming you're acting in a rational way, so I was wondering what is the hard-headed calculation that dictates your choice between "damned if we do and damned if we don't"?

[Dave Bloke]

what is the hard-headed calculation that dictates your choice between "damned if we do and damned if we don't"?

Watching the QANTAS guys having to take commands on Jetstar terms and conditions. It equates to about a 30% pay (and pension) cut.

No brainer really.

[Tandemrotor]

I confess to being caught between a rock and a hard place!

On the one hand, a bunch of losers, who are prepared to work for nothing, are trying to deny my family their income.

On the other, they are expecting ME to stand up to fight for THEM when they obviously have never had the BALLS to do it for themselves! (they can't ALL be french! - Or BA retirees - Low life!)

I guess in truth I have less to lose than them. Yes, this venture will be used as a weapon to attack me. On the other hand, this roster (and crap pay) will kill them long before that happens! (Did I tell you there were only 3 out of 3000 BA pilots who applied for secondment??:rolleyes: I wonder why?)

Or they will expect to move on. But just remember the recruitment ban! We WILL remember your names, and will make sure others do too!

Enjoy! :}

[Right Engine]

Tandemrotor,

Where did you hear the figure of 3 applications for secondment?

[biddedout]

So leading on from the comments after JMGhee, it appears that this whole thing is simply about trust.

You have all been selected by your management for having the following qualities; leadership, intellect, determination, reliability, high personal standards, motivation, flexibility, together with well developed customer service skills and teamwork. That’s what the advert says, so you should be relatively stable and pragmatic bunch of people.

Three thousand of you have thought long and hard about this developing situation and have come to the conclusion that it is the better of two evils to go for an option which may do damage to your company and yourselves, rather than to rely on the word of a leadership team which is assuring you that there will be no detriment to your terms and conditions in the future.

As a shareholder, I find that rather worrying. I hope the board does too.
Was this apparent total lack of trust the same in the days of RE, or is it a recent thing?

[interpreter]

I have entered a number of comments on this subject and have been assumed to be an independent travel agent. In fact it is my wife who is the agent but as a former Royal Air Force officer and now a mere PPL have a keen interest in the fortunes of BA - as well as having many pilots as friends. However, in my current role as a Business Adviser, albeit to medium sized companies rather than large ones I can see the outcome of a strike possibly hurting the pilots more that the company. BUT in either case damaging long term prospects in one way or another for both.

Being a union leader - and a BA manager for that matter - is is not easy in a conflict situation but my experience tells me THERE IS ALWAYS A COMPROMISE somewhere. I do not wish to see the pilots remain dissatisfied neither do I wish to see BA damaged so the answer has to be some give on both sides.

Even if the BALPA negotiators feel there is no give they must endeavour to find a way to keep talking. Perhaps the pending strike may just make the management willing to have one more go. If they do for goodness sake take it. There is a solution out there. Good luck.

[Human Factor]

Was this apparent total lack of trust the same in the days of RE, or is it a recent thing?

It's been growing for a few years. WW is well aware of it.


Perhaps the pending strike may just make the management willing to have one more go. If they do for goodness sake take it. There is a solution out there. Good luck.

Thanks. One would hope so. Management have played the legal card and the result will be known tomorrow. If BA choose to talk to BACC again, they are more than willing to listen. What it will rely on is BA delivering a solution of substance, something which has been significantly lacking for the past nine months (six of which, they flatly refused to talk to the BACC on the subject).

[overstress]

biddedout: rather than to rely on the word of a leadership team which is assuring you that there will be no detriment to your terms and conditions in the future.


Your posting is well-written and perceptive. BALPA members have had written assurances in the recent past. In that instance, pilots took lower terms and conditions in the 'Regions' to help fund a shiny new fleet of 21 Airbuses. Written assurances were given.

Then, 'market forces' took over, the 10 Airbuses that had appeared were shunted off to LHR and the assurances were proved worthless. The remainder of the fleet was never bought, the pilots didn't 'get their money back'.

Fortunately, the current BACC are more astute than their colleagues from that time.

Willy Walsh has promised us assurances "in his own blood" - his words. We don't want that, we would prefer old-fashioned ink on a binding agreement.

[stephenr]

Hi,

I've been researching this basis for strike action and I am interested in BA's threat of injunction. I work as an employee representative in a unrelated industry.

I have some questions:
1. I read on the befairba website an excerpt of schedule k (http://www.befairba.org/getattachment/efb36008-b66e-40bc-abbd-e7c2889d36af/BACC-Response-to-British-Airways-Q-A.aspx (http://www.befairba.org/getattachment/efb36008-b66e-40bc-abbd-e7c2889d36af/BACC-Response-to-British-Airways-Q-A.aspx) ). This gives assurances that any planes flown out of LGW/ LHR and in the UK must be flown by pilots on the seniority list. This looks like a concrete guarantee that OS pilots will never fly out of London or be involved in the w patters already discussed. What language does BALPA want and why?
2. Why not strike when BA want to water down the clause? (to allow OS pilots to fly out of London)
3. Why did BALPA agree to the revised schedule K (circa 2003) with geographical limits. Its indicated that the previous version did not have such limits?
4. Do any BALPA members feel misrepresented by their Union in agreeing to this clause in 2003?
5. “any British Airways flying anywhere in the UK,in aircraft purchased or leased by British Airways with 100 seats or more,will be flown by British Airways Mainline Flight Crew.” Does this mean that in this current agreement OS pilots can not fly over UK airspace or ferry aircraft from London to their European bases?
5. Is there any idea what the legal case BA have against the union is?
6. What was the exact wording of the question on the ballot papers ?

If any insiders feel the above is confidential please pm me.

Stephen

[biddedout]

Overstress.

Oh yes, the departure from the regions. That was all Osamas fault wasn’t it? A convenient excuse to be rolled out time and time again over the next three years even though it was probably down to pressure from the Locos and BA chose to run away.

BAR became BAconnect. WW gave BAacon two years to adapt to a lower cost model and turn its “losses” into a profit otherwise that was the end. A firm and decisive plan to work to perhaps, which some of us were actually stupid enough to believe.:ouch: What he conveniently forgot to tell the Bacon staff, who were desperately trying to achieve this, was that he was already into talks with a competitor to give the operation away. And he didn’t even offer his assurances in blood on that one.

As several people have suggested, strike action does seem a little excessive given the underlying issue, however, if it is all about trust, then BA have a significant responsibility for leading a bunch of generally can-do pragmatic non militant workers to this position, and they now have a responsibility at Board level for finding ways to regaining this trust. They really do need to come up with something better than the threat of a court order in order to diffuse this.

The BA way. “Working together as a team”.:rolleyes: - Hardly.

I would love to know what the ACAS facilitator actually made of last weeks efforts. I suspect it will take months of long hard frank facilitated discussions before team BA can consider itself to be working as a joined up team.


Now when is the AGM? I feel a question coming on

[GS-Alpha]

I would love to know what the ACAS facilitator actually made of last weeks efforts.

So would I !!!

If BALPA could tell us, I am sure they would have done so by now, no matter who's side he was on. So they are very likely legally prevented from telling us. This could mean that the facilitator was totally on our side, or it could simply mean that confidentiality clauses were signed from the outset, which covered a period of time, rather than, until the end of the talks.

We will find out where this dispute is going by the end of today I am sure. I am still maintaining hope that it will all have been sorted out and strike action will be avoided. Otherwise, I will strike for as long as our reps think it is a good idea. They have my full support, respect, and confidence.

GS-Alpha

[biddedout]

I don't think the facilitator (Prof of IR) will have been on anyone's side, that's the whole point.

I would just be fascinated to know what he made of the body language, tactics and attitudes. If he is doing his job properly, which i am sure he is then we will never know.

[Stoic]

From the BA website: If strike dates are issued, we will act to protect our customers by applying for an injunction. From your post last night: Management have played the legal card and the result will be known tomorrow.Does this mean that BALPA has issued strike dates to BA and that BA have applied for an injunction? If so, and the injunction fails, can you publish the strike dates asap please.

Many thanks.

Regards

Stoic

[Shaka Zulu]

Biddedout

I wish it was 'just' a trust issue. Management like to think it is but I think for the majority of us it has got other sides to the coin aswell.

With the predicament of the OpenSkies treaty comes the reality that the market will not be the same in 10/15years time. LHR won't be the Golden Runways (heavily regulated) for BA as it is now. Other financial centres of the world are making great strides in gaining importance. Our government is doing it's very best to scare businesess away and above all the green movement (albeit noble and in a sense just) is big in the UK.
Growth (real long term growth) might just have to come from different parts of Europe.
The outfit (OS) is BA and so the pilots should be too!

Agreements are made for that reason and verbal simply isn't good enough. We HAVE an agreement that regulates work, and its unfit for the new regulatory environment we currently face. Hence we seek the amendments to the famed Schedule K.

As you rightly point out, we are a non-militant workforce. Unfortunately in our and other companies we are often too laid back, and look at thinks through rose tinted spectacles and think it'll be okay.
If we don't fight for a sensible agreement now then it'll be too late.
As you well know we have offered to match the costbase BA seeks to make the setup a success. So from an investors point of view there are no reasons as to why you should be angry with us.
It's the very thing that baffles most of us!!

Most pilots tend to be pretty astute thinkers and ofcourse we won't seek to let a BA setup go bust. Remember it comes from OUR bottom line, and so will effect our bonuses (if we get one at all)

Best regards

[Human Factor]

Does this mean that BALPA has issued strike dates to BA and that BA have applied for an injunction?

Not necessarily.;)

If you had a legal issue and your opponent told you he would apply for an injunction to declare it illegal, would you wait for him to try or would you make sure first? :hmm:

[BigBobBloggs]

Just heard 'BA Pilots will not strike over Easter'

Anyone tell me more?

[svenny]

Not just over Easter, CH4 News have just quoted BALPA as saying BA pilots will not strike, period!

[Sir George Cayley]

The news that BAA are in talks to sell off its Duty Free business may not at first glance appear germain to this thread, but stick with me for a moment.

Tritely, the world is changing (what's new?) but fighting to protect something against a bigger tide of change could be wasted effort. Look at some other factors. The UK Govt has deregulated price controls at a major airport recently; will that be the last one?

The European Commission now leads on Air Service agreement talks, not the Govt.

Rumour has it Gatwick is being readied by Ferrovail for sale.

Air Quality targets are unreachable around LHR now, let alone with growth.

Yes, I think WW is wrong to move in a divisive way and he will not survive the encounter, but a previous poster's encouragement to BALPA to make all efforts to keep talking is sound. And to give a small bit whilst looking over the horizon towards The Future Size and Shape of the market.

Flight Engineers were the victim of technology. Airbus are developing systems that will continue to put the crew further from direct control and more towards collaborative decision makers with the a/c's computers.

I think in a number of years time we all will look back on the period from the 1980's to the 1st quarter of this C as "Golden" in terms of wealth creation.

So in conclusion, yes stay strong - don't let the b**g*rs grind..etc but think about giving the golden goose a tweeked beak as opposed to killing it.

I've got a broad back but if you could form an orderly queue Gentlemen!

Sir George Cayley

[TopBunk]

BBB

BALPA (and their QC) went to chambers yesterday for a ruling about the validity or otherwise of BA's injunction claim.

The judge will look into it. In the meantime the strike ballot period of validity to commence strike action has had the clock stopped on it. This will effectively take out the easter weekend for strike action, hence the comments. When the judge delivers his verdict, the clock will start again.

[BigBobBloggs]

Hmm.

I'm flying 26th March so I guess that still leaves me in the firing line.
Rather expedient of Balpa to use a legal delay as a public relations tool though - "our row is not with the travelling public who will have worked hard for their Easter break" etc etc

[Stoic]

Here is the BALPA press release from balpa.org:

http://www.balpa.org.uk/gfx/shim.gif Media & Press • Tuesday, March 11, 2008 NEWS from BALPA
British Airline Pilots’ Association
11th March 2008
NO PILOTS’ STRIKE OVER EASTER

The British Airline Pilots' Association (BALPA) has confirmed that there will be no disruption to the public over Easter. Jim McAuslan, BALPA General Secretary said ‘our row is not with the travelling public who will have worked hard for their Easter break.’
The threat of disruption has arisen because BA plans to start a new service flying passengers from mainland European capitals to the USA. The service, called OpenSkies, is using BA money, will use BA planes with BA support and is being overseen by senior BA managers but will not use BA pilots.
http://www.balpa.org.uk/BA-plane-bapilot-article.jpg'Despite BALPA’s willingness to accept the cost base proposed by BA for OpenSkies, the company has not been prepared to provide the employment security and career development opportunities which are at the heart of the dispute. Our pilots are fighting for their futures and the wellbeing of their families.'
'Pilots have contributed to the success of BA for years. Now they are told their work is to be outsourced jeopardising jobs and careers. These are legitimate and reasonable concerns that the company has not been prepared to address.
British Airways encouraged their pilots to participate in the strike ballot believing that this would dilute the final vote. Their campaign backfired with 86% of BA's pilots voting for strike action on a huge 90% poll. This would be the first strike of BA pilots for 30 years.’
British Airways is now claiming that BA pilots cannot legally pursue their job security concerns because of a piece of European legislation. Jim McAuslan added ‘British Airways should be at the negotiating table and not using European legislation designed to ensure free competition between companies and not to restrict the freedoms of Trade Unions in industrial disputes. We have sought to place this matter before the courts ourselves in order to resolve the question as quickly as possible. This is an unprecedented move by a union and demonstrates the responsible way in which BALPA has approached this.’


Footnote:
BA is asserting it has a fundamental right under Article 43 of the EC Treaty (“Article 43 EC”) to establish operations in another EU Member State. This right includes both establishing new airline services in other EU Member States, as well as acquiring existing operations from third parties. BALPA is seeking a Declaration from the Court as to whether Article 43 does apply and whether it may rely on the strike ballot to avoid a claim for unlimited damages.

[Fake Sealion]

The News & Press section on BALPA website provides clarification on Easter issue.

[BigBobBloggs]

Am still a little confused -

Today is 11th March - 'Easter Weekend' is 21st-24th March.
My understanding is Balpa has legally to provide 7 days notice of strike action.
Therefore a strike could still have been called for 'Easter' up 'til March 17th.
However - the 'strike within 30 days' rule meant (I believe) that a strike must be announced by March 13th.
So what is the situation now?
If the 'strike ballot period of validity to commence strike action has had the clock stopped on it' then theoretically a strike could still be called as soon as Judge John Deed rules on BA's claim.
Is there any word on how long the ruling might take?

[Kileleni]

Not in the aviation industry myself (although my daughter flies for BA!), my sympathy with the BA pilots is because of another industry decline (the UK Shipping industry). In the 70's the oil majors decided to outsource the shipping of oil to flags of convenience knowing lower standards equalled lower costs. Not much of a UK shipping industry left after that escapade !

[411A]

Not just over Easter, CH4 News have just quoted BALPA as saying BA pilots will not strike, period!

So, the big bad boys of BALPA are full of hot air it would seem...why am I not surprised:rolleyes::}

All this talk of action, a puny result.

[Shaka Zulu]

411A crawl back into your box please.
It's Channel 4 we are talking about here.
We will strike if we have to. The above posted press release sums it up nicely.

[Fake Sealion]

Oh come on 411A.....get down off the fence:)

I now deserve one of these:ok:

Our BA flight on March 20 now seems likely to go. Yes ..........we have worked hard for our Easter break

Not sure if we'll get back home though.....oh well:= Cross that bridge.....

[Vino Collapso]

A bit harsh 411A !

As someone who posted here in opposition of strike action, both for my personal travel reasons and my underlying belief that it gets nobody antwhere in the long term, I feel I should return to the thread. Although I am not totally out of the woods as we fly home on the 27th so could still technically get delayed.

Regardless of whatever spin each side will put on this latest move it is good to see some clear daylight between the two factions. Space to manoeuvre is good.

Now its BA turn to make a positive gesture. Disguise it in anyway you wish to save some face. After all the pilots have played a good PR card with the public and put you in the Mr Nasty chair in the publics eyes.

Yes BALPA may only have temporarily lifted the threat due to a need to clarify relative legal positions but it is a chance for both sides to get this dispute back to the basics. Both sides would benefit from avoiding the stagnant mire of European legislation.

IMHO the pilots should continue to hold the strike card at the ready. It will do as much to put the public off of flying with BA as an all out strike would do. ( so there is a partial about turn by me as well)

[BigBobBloggs]

Vino

I agree - the headlong momentum to Strike has been halted, albeit by a technicality.
But as I read (on the Guardian site) that the high court is expected to rule within days, this may be just a brief window to take stock.
Something new on the table from BA...a willingness to compromise from Balpa...this thing could still be sorted out.

[BOAC73]

A welcome and smart move by BALPA and the BA reps. If BA achieves the 10% margin then there is a bonus for staff, including the pilots.
B73.

[peterowensfanclub]

Will the recruitment ban remain in force?
Not that it will matter to the motley crew of charter drop out, eurotrash and general company hoppers (i wonder why) that it seems to have attracted.
It will be amusing to watch this gang of pikies interact with the BA managers. Just ask any charter manager about some of the chracters.
I wait with glee for the reaction of the mercenary f/os whn the BA people keep them on the right seat and hire direct to the left.

Just like some of the other recent starups that are not all they seemed to be it will turn into another company they (the pikey recruits)leave. You see its never their fault. Or it will be an ryr type of enviroment.
As you can see there are many words besides the S word to label this strata of pilot

[Open Lies]

IFALPA international Recruitment BAN remains in force.

Do you really want to apply for an be employed by a company that every major pilot union has blacklisted.:confused:

'Pikeys' really is a good moniker. :*

[Vino Collapso]

Very quiet on this thread. Not many posts by BA pilots.

Perhaps they have all gone to the BA forum?

Come on guys although this could be seen as a temporary set back whilst legal positions are clarified it is also a relevant discussion point and a good opportunity to get us fare paying passengers back on your side. BALPA have made good use of the situation by declaring no strike over Easter. Now the use of an EC Treaty by BA to force their position could also be used to your public relations advantage. The subject of EC rules mis-used by UK management to impact upon UK employees rights is a real hot potato.

[sidtheesexist]

vino - it's not a major setback at all.........We have some great intellects on the BACC with excellent legal advice - I am confident that they have the 'situation' under control and are ready to outfox the company again and again and again...........

Could I refer all the non pilots on this forum to posts 193/196 by biddedout. He/she really is able to see the wood for the trees and appreciates that only under the greatest duress would we, as a professional body, consider taking industrial action. Thank you for your perceptive comments (as an earlier poster has acknowledged) and I hope some of the less sympathetic/supportive posters are able to comprehend the significant points you make concerning (1) key characteristics of professional pilots and (2) BA management's role in the creation of this pitifull mess.

I fear however, that a lot of the anti BA pilot postings are written by people with agendas who have no interest in seeing things as they really are....

[justinzider]

BALPA have applied for a "Fast Track" High Court ruling. This is estimated to take 6 weeks!

BALPA will win as BA's argument is over Anti Competition Law:bored::uhoh:

The clock then will tick again on 21st April when 7 days notice of strike can be given on either 21st, 22nd or 23rd. So strike will be starting last days of April (my deduction) unless an agreement is reached in the meantime.

BA have been out-foxed and are firmly on the backfoot with the threat of industrial action hanging over them for a while longer, when they thought they had us about to cower under the table and accept their pathetic offers of "assurance". They are now flapping and want to meet again.

BALPA have called their bluff on the legal side and are "playing a blinder":D

[pacamack]

.......or BA Management have stalled the strike beyond financial year end 07/08, thus protecting the 10%. They have already stated that 10% is not achievable in the next financial year so although a strike would be painful it won't hurt nearly as much as a strike in March would have?

[BahrainLad]

And presumably, they've avoided the unprecedented PR nightmare of having to open T5 with no flights.

[wiggy]

The body of opinion on "the street" is that the T5 opening could quite possibly be a shambles without any strike action....

[Dave Bloke]

www.baplane-bapilot.org

Pilots Accuse BA Of Misrepresentation
12/03/2008

The British Airline Pilots' Association today accused British Airways of misrepresenting their position in their dispute with the airline and expressed concern as to whether BA really wanted a negotiated settlement.

When talks between BALPA and BA broke down on Friday night of last week, BA announced if strike dates were given it would go to the High Court to seek an injunction preventing the strike, basing their case on a novel approach, the use of Article 43 of the Treaty of Rome.

BALPA did not accept this argument but rather than announce strike dates it took the initiative and referred the matter to the High Court to seek a ruling on whether BA's reliance on Article 43 of the Treaty of Rome had any bearing on the industrial dispute.

The Court has agreed to 'stop the clock' on the 28 days during which the union must serve notice of a strike to allow the High Court to decide the matter.

'We have been shocked to learn today that BA has entirely misrepresented the position to the media,' BALPA General Secretary Jim McAuslan declared.

'BA said that BALPA recognises that the airline has a strong legal case that any strike action would be unlawful. Nothing could be further from the truth.'

BALPA said that such tactics are clearly unhelpful and are likely to hinder a negotiated settlement. Perhaps, BALPA says, that is BA's objective.

'What has happened is that BA has raised a novel point of law, using the Treaty of Rome.' Jim McAuslan said.

The Court's determination will have huge implications for all employers and trade unions.

'Our view is that the point raised by BA has no bearing on an industrial dispute such as the one we have with BA because it plans to outsource BA pilots' jobs and our actions are both legitimate and proportionate.

'What makes matters worse is that BA is saying publicly that our decision to take the matter to the High Court and not announce a strike is proof that we accept that BA has a "strong case". This is outrageous. We have not announced strike dates because we wish the Court to consider the matter with great care and without pressure. We also thought it right to make clear to the public, with whom we have no dispute, that there will be no industrial action over the Easter period.

'BA's misrepresentation of our position is a disgrace and one which has angered their pilots.'

Sums it up well.;)

[swordsman]

What is the opinion in the city on the handling of the situation ?

[Stoic]

BALPA have applied for a "Fast Track" High Court ruling. This is estimated to take 6 weeks!The clock then will tick again on 21st April when 7 days notice of strike can be given on either 21st, 22nd or 23rd. So strike will be starting last days of April (my deduction) unless an agreement is reached in the meantime.Can any insider please confirm the above so that I can pass the information on to concerned passengers?

Many thanks in anticipation.

Stoic

[Human Factor]

The clock will tick again as soon as a judgement is given. Six weeks is an estimate. It may be more or less. I presume 21st April is six weeks from today.

[Stoic]

Thanks a lot.

Regards

S

[tiger-palm]

It's just as well BALPA's got deep pockets.. the legal fees must be massive. Good Luck

[Fargoo]

BA have been out-foxed and are firmly on the backfoot

Not exactly true now is it, the most effective moments to strike (Easter/T5 opening) at the end of a spectacular year for profits has been swerved by BA management.

The 1st Openskies 757 is still under modification at LHR and I can't see that being stopped at this stage. Just a matter of time before a deal is done to end this dispute.

[ZeBedie]

It's just as well BALPA's got deep pockets.. the legal fees must be massive.

Speaking as a non-BA BALPA member: Well, fine, if that's what it takes. Good luck.

[900]

Justinzider posted:
BALPA have called their bluff on the legal side and are "playing a blinder"
Who is playing the blinder?
BA advised BALPA of its legal claim and BALPA understood that it might face "bankruptcy" (not my words) in order to test the legal point. They obtained an ex-parte order that is eminantly challengeable (and if BA wants to , I'm sure it will).
Meanwhile BALPA has to watch as its mandate ebbs away.
The BACC Team understand that in order to protect their own skins they are better off hiding behind a legal decision than achieving what they view to be a "poor deal" (i.e. not BA Plane BA Pilot).
My view - not a BA pilot as I've said before, but a BA employee with an interest in this as it affects my livelihood - BALPA has misread BA management's resolve and is running out of places to go.
They will get personal soon and angrier. I await the first knockings ...

[Thunderbug]

900

You are such a comedian - Any more of that and you will have this thread sent to Jet Blast.

Meanwhile BALPA has to watch as its mandate ebbs away.
Wrong - If anything, the delay and the behaviour of management is making the resolve of BALPA members stronger and more united.

They will get personal soon and angrier
BA Management already getting personal and angry with threats of disciplinary action against people posting on the internal company forum.

a BA employee with an interest in this as it affects my livelihood As am I - I am fighting to protect my livelihood.

T'bug :ok:

[GS-Alpha]

Fargoo

The 1st Openskies 757 is still under modification at LHR and I can't see that being stopped at this stage. Just a matter of time before a deal is done to end this dispute.

How right you are! Why would we want to stop it? This dispute is not about whether BA should set up Openskies or not. You are also right that it is just a matter of time before we achieve a satisfactory end to this.

[biddedout]

Since the question of the 10% opearting margin target has cropped up. For anyone intending to go to OS, be aware that as a BA subsidiary, you will be expected to contribute towards achieving this margin but you will not be included in the BA bonus system.

Your managers will cobble together some bonus system of their own with targets which OS will permanently fail to achieve. Obviously, the whole point of having a subsidiary is to ensure that it only ever breaks even or makes a loss.

Enjoy the Christmas £15 B&Q voucher:* though and think of your Board as they count their share options:=.

If BALPA does any kind of deal and buy into OS, they should be very careful to insist that one of the conditions is that BALPA (the OSCC AND the BACC) have full access to the management accounts in order to ensure that it is actually being run as a true stand alone company, paying proper market rates for services. Until now, subsidiaries have always had their accounts consolidated into those of the main company, making it very difficult to prove the true state of play. The idea is that you are just supposed to believe what you are told and trust your “Leadership Team”.

Better still, insist that a pilot is appointed to the board. (Elected by the membership of course). As someone has pointed out, there are some very switched on and well qualified cookies on the BACC and within the wider community. The precedent is already set. Why would Willy object.

[hunterboy]

I seem to remember Ed Winter becoming very rich of the back of the last airline BA set up from scratch. No wonder the seconded managers are very keen to push this through . Untold riches made from the backs of BA pilots.

[Shaka Zulu]

@ Biddedout

Another very good post from you sir! Very perceptive of the true 'state of play' at work here.
Our bonus scheme is exactly that of unattainable targets. 50% on time! (no way!) is one of the triggers. And this is Mainline BA.

Which shareholder would want a company setup that according to BA's admittance (be it untrue or true) is going to make only marginal profits if a profit at all?
The likelyhood of it loosing money (see BA's track record) is far higher.

Time and time again, the same thing comes up. It's going to be used as an industrial lever on T&C's.
BA have already played their hand as in, we CAN have full access into OpenSkies, just give up some of your paypoints.....
It ALWAYS is about money. Shame they felt they needed to waste approx £400 million of it already on managerial disasters.

[randomair]

Was browsing through the TCX crew web portal and found a link to 'Openskies crew leave system'.

https://www.crewleave.com/

Also I heard a rumour that openskies will be using the old TCX AOC, any truth in that? (Thomas Cook has 757 etops approval)

randomair

[biddedout]

From my experience in a BA subsidiary, I never failed to be amazed at how much effort seemed to be directed at attacking staff and their terms, conditions and status, rather than the competition. BA HR manager implants in particular seemed to take great delight in point scoring often spending far more in legal fees and HR/ management man hours than they actually saved. One can only assume that every little “victory” was another point on their promotion sheet or towards their KPI bonus.
Generally, they would always go for the weaker elements avoiding any conflict with those who might actually stand up to them. When the weak rolled over, they went for more.

There is nothing more demoralising than being managed by people who have been seconded into your company short term just to gain experience in an environment where mistakes are easy to cover up and don’t affect the parent. They have an escape route (BA contract) and have nothing but short term goals and targets.

The fact that they choose to brand themselves as the “Leadership Team” also speaks volumes. They did a bit of managing, but leading – no way. None had the guts to be honest with the staff, tell it as it was and to stand up to Waterside. This will always be the case when managers have no long term ties to an operation and are only motivated by short term targets.




As for your 50% on time target. It is so good to be away from BA where it is now possble to achieve 90% on time with very little effort. BA has (had) some fantatic people on the ground, but unlike the outside world, everyone works in their own litle patch does their bit and palms it off onto the next department. Very little is joined up. Now, the team responsible for geting us off bear full responsibility for on time right up until the Tug drives off. This is what WW should be sorting. Working together as a team, rather than just talking about it. This will never happen in BA if they continue to fight with their staff.

[sunnysmith]

Meanwhile BALPA has to watch as its mandate ebbs away.

Keep telling yourself that matey!!! It might make you feel better!!!! but everyone I know (friends and colleagues) who where not convinced before(some voted against strike!) are now 110% behind our BACC. I believe if we have another ballot, the results will be even more in favour of BALPA.

The most common reason is, excuse the paraphrasing, 'if this whole issue is no big deal, why is BA pushing so hard? if it's only 6 aeroplanes, why all the fuss?'

I too am worried about BAs future, it is my future as well! I have over 30 years left in the company-unless I lose my medical or licence.

[Hotel Mode]

And some international support which we're very pleased about. Thanks guys

Urgent Call to all ALPA Pilots: Informational Picket on Saturday to support British Airways Pilots Fight against Alter-ego Airline



Picketing Events on Saturday, March 15 in Los Angeles, Newark, New York, San Francisco, Seattle, and Washington, D.C.

Join ALPA pilots who are informational picketing this Saturday, March 15, to demonstrate staunch solidarity with British Airways (BA) pilots who are protesting their managements attempt to start a new airline without using pilots from the BA seniority list. The stakes are high for all airline pilots.

OpenSkies will operate directly between European points outside the United Kingdom and the United States. BA management is starting OpenSkies using BA airliners, the BA brand, and BA profits that are the result of BA pilots professionalism, but management wont use BA pilots.

Just as New York Air was the first alter-ego challenge in the U.S. after airline deregulation, OpenSkies is the first alter-ego challenge for European pilots after the first-stage US/EU Open Skies agreement. If BA is successful, it would mean that the hard-earned benefits contractually guaranteed to those who have invested the most in their airlines could be lost. And if it is successful, other European airlines will surely follow suit.

BA pilots deserve and demand access to OpenSkies flying;a right they have earned as partners in BAs success. Join pilots across the country and around the globe on March 15.

When: Saturday, March 15
2:00 pm 4:00 pm local time

Where: International terminal at:
John F. Kennedy Intl Airport **8:00 am & Noon local time
Los Angeles Intl Airport
Newark Intl Airport
San Francisco Intl Airport
Seattle-Tacoma Intl Airport
Washington Dulles Intl Airport

[biddedout]

Shaka Zulu


The likelyhood of it loosing money (see BA's track record) is far higher.

Very true, it does sound like we are seeing the same old pattern all over again. In their last venture, BA bought a job lot of second hand previous generation long lease aircraft. Once they had nicked the LHR slots that came with them, they were at a loss to know what to do next. “Make do, get into profit or be sold or closed” was the message with an associated sob story about the parent not being able to afford to invest in more suitable equipment (£350mil would have helped). The result was a five year experiment in probing and testing less well represented staff to see what they could get away with until the leases were more manageable. It was also a very handy vheicle for rubbing out BAR.

At one point, Baconnect were cancelling flights and letting their customers down due to lack of cabin crew. At the same time, BAConnect had cabin crew on loan to BA London discretely “helping out” on 767 long-haul. Under order from Waterside no doubt. Another test to see what they could get away with perhaps, or another manager after some Waterside smarty points for keeping Maniline going. Shame he neglected his own patch.

Was very tempting to go up to the departure lounge and tell passengers that they weren’t going to be travelling today, because their regional cabin crew had been sent to work for another company for the weekend and were currently in Barbados. I wish I had.

You have every reason to be wary of their assurance.


As for their request for less pay-points. Didn’t the pilots agree to this in the Highlands and Islands Division? Look what happened to that.

[randomair]

Media & Press • Thursday, March 13, 2008

NEWS from BALPA

British Airline Pilots’ Association
12th March 2008

PILOTS ACCUSE BA OF MISREPRESENTATION

The British Airline Pilots' Association today accused British Airways of misrepresenting their position in their dispute with the airline and expressed concern as to whether BA really wanted a negotiated settlement.

www.baplane-bapilot.orgWhen talks between BALPA and BA broke down on Friday night of last week, BA announced if strike dates were given it would go to the High Court to seek an injunction preventing the strike, basing their case on a novel approach, the use of Article 43 of the Treaty of Rome.

BALPA did not accept this argument but rather than announce strike dates it took the initiative and referred the matter to the High Court to seek a ruling on whether BA's reliance on Article 43 of the Treaty of Rome had any bearing on the industrial dispute.

The Court has agreed to 'stop the clock' on the 28 days during which the union must serve notice of a strike to allow the High Court to decide the matter.

'We have been shocked to learn today that BA has entirely misrepresented the position to the media,' BALPA General Secretary Jim McAuslan declared.

'BA said that BALPA recognises that the airline has a strong legal case that any strike action would be unlawful. Nothing could be further from the truth.'

BALPA General Secretary, Jim McAuslanBALPA said that such tactics are clearly unhelpful and are likely to hinder a negotiated settlement. Perhaps, BALPA says, that is BA's objective.

'What has happened is that BA has raised a novel point of law, using the Treaty of Rome.' Jim McAuslan said.

The Court's determination will have huge implications for all employers and trade unions.

'Our view is that the point raised by BA has no bearing on an industrial dispute such as the one we have with BA because it plans to outsource BA pilots' jobs and our actions are both legitimate and proportionate.

'What makes matters worse is that BA is saying publicly that our decision to take the matter to the High Court and not announce a strike is proof that we accept that BA has a "strong case". This is outrageous. We have not announced strike dates because we wish the Court to consider the matter with great care and without pressure. We also thought it right to make clear to the public, with whom we have no dispute, that there will be no industrial action over the Easter period.

'BA's misrepresentation of our position is a disgrace and one which has angered their pilots.'

[Open Lies]

Within BA we have a Flight Operations internet forum, the same as this one.

There is no anonymity and is open to the many hundreds of Flt Ops ground staff aswell as the BA pilots and management.

BA has always used this as a propaganda tool pedaling there mis truths, but some of our more 'active' members have quite rightly been challenging the management diatribe.

Over the last few days, BA Flt Ops management lackies have taken to calling up the BA pilots who have had the audacity to make a post that is not in agreement to the BA management lies and

HAVE THREATENED THEIR OWN PILOTS WITH LEGAL ACTION

if they do not retract, delete or change the post ont this in house, private internet forum !

:mad:

BALPA has now recommended to us that we do not post on the forum because of this.

WE have seen nothing yet, - the depths too which BA management will descend is truly subterranean.

For people who do not work for BA or understand the dynamics within BA Flt Ops - I hope you are starting to get an idea of just how morally bankrupt our so called leaders really are.

[BOAC]

There's always your own forum here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31).....................no collar feeling.:ok:

[411A]

There's always your own forum here.....................no collar feeling.

I very much doubt they would be interested as some of the BALPA folks seem to want to justify their misguided actions to others Quite frankly I don't understand why, they either go on strike or they don't, not endlessly flap their jaws about doing so.
BAPLA...all talk, no action, it seems.
Where has their collective backbone gone, I wonder?:rolleyes:

[dollydaydream]

biddeout

Probably off topic but I feel I must correct you about BA connect staff 'helping out' on the 767.
Clearly only crew who were checked out on that aircraft were eligble to go, so the majority of crew were ruled out.
Crew who went were on leave, days off, or part-time crew on fixed working patterns.
Some trips were turned down and I am unaware that any Connect flights were cancelled due to lack of crew and consider it highly unlikely.

I do agree with you about BAR.

Good luck to all involved.

[biddedout]

Fair enough, but the fact was that several flights (one of mine included) were cancelled at least one weekend. Reason - lack of cabin crew. I was aware because I saw a load of them checking in to position down to LHR on the Friday evening.

If these 767 rated people were volunteering to work on a day off, or during leave, why weren't they being asked to do similar for their own company?

Ah got it. Barbados v Belfast. No brainer!

Our OPS staff who who were trying to manage a REGIONAL operation were furious when they found out, which suggests it was all slightly underhand. We heard all the excuses but no one was convinced.

[dollydaydream]

I was never aware of any crewing issues at MAN despite what the flying public may have been told. Therefore there were never any Belfast/Barbados choices to be made.
It may have been kept quiet to avoid 'it's not fair' issues in the crew room and possibly to avoid any union issues.
The crew were used - I think they all knew that but were willing participants not just because of the destinations but because it was an opportunity for long-haul flying.

I'll bow out now and allow the thread to go back on topic - perhaps a message from this 'diversion' is that there will always be people willing to accept whatever BA dishes out in exchange for the opportunity to work for them.

[Orion Man]

411A,

It seems many appear to have you on ignore on this forum.

BAPLA...all talk, no action, it seems.
Where has their collective backbone gone, I wonder?

What is with you exactly ? You appear to be ignoring an emphatic mandate to take industrial action by 86% of 90% of BA's union membership which in turn is an extremely high proportion of its pilot workforce.

You seem to delight in provoking, when the reason for delay in action is a legal one. I think I might just add you to the ignore list as your posts are quite pathetic.

Good luck you guys at BA and I hope you get a good turn out this weekend :ok:


Regards

Orion Man