RAAF FCIs going to sale?

[oldm8]

I heard today that FCIs are now going to go to Sale for a shortened version of FIC. Something about improving airborne instructional techniques to improve conversion pass rates in ACG. Also that CAT checks are going to be done on them by CFS QFIs annually.

Anyone else heard about this?

[rapiddescent]

Interesting thought.

Haven't heard as much, although I heard that OCU are losing more studs these days...maybe due to FCI instruction?

Not sure how the CAT system works with QFI / FCI. Should be the same shouldn't it?

[oldm8]

ACG needs a massive increase in manning over the next few years so it makes sense that pass rates need to go up.

[control snatch]

Hmm....dont think they will be happy about this. But I guess it does make sense. Otherwise how can they teach basics like circuits, IF etc.

Sale.....hurt!

DDM......hurt!

[rapiddescent]

Hey control snatch, DDM?

If they go to Sale, would it be on the Hornet or PC-9? If they flew the hornet, then would CFS be able to fly in it? i.e. since they will not be front seat qualified....

although, I suppose they are CFS, therefore they can pretty much fly and teach anything right?

[Milt]

Lower the bar and the standards go lower also. Sounds like the bean counters are having a bigger influence.

[rapiddescent]

Milt,

Lowering the bar? how so? Surley by extra and more specific training at Sale, the pass rates will climb?

[plane of motion]

And the hits just keep on coming!!!

[Mick.B]

This might explain why we are getting so many F-18s and Hawks of the Victorian coast lately.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Will be interesting to see what the RAAF gets for them !

Dr :8

[Trojan1981]

:ok:

http://www.ftarmy.com/logo/AC853.pdf

[oldpinger]

Trojan- Excellent work, laughed so hard I nearly joined the army...:eek:

You haven't got the number for the nearest chaplain as well have you??

[OZBorn]

Rapid Descent,

DDM = Demo, Direct, Monitor. THE method of instruction that the military use that could be taught in a day but takes CFS 4 months to do.

[Gundog01]

although I heard that OCU are losing more studs these days...maybe due to FCI instruction?

Not true. The only studs not completing course for the last few years have been medical or self suspensions.

They're losing more instructors than studs these days.......

[Victor India]

OzBorn : A Cat QFI? Probably not.

OzBorn : Copped the raw end of the stick at some stage and not yet quite over it? Probably.

:ugh: VI

[Mick.B]

So what is the verdict. Are they or are they not going to East Sale.

[rapiddescent]

Oz, thanks for the info.

Sounds like you have been through that part of the system?

GUNDOG wrote

Not true. The only studs not completing course for the last few years have been medical or self suspensions.


Surely there have been suspensions due to 'inability to pass on their own merits' right?? i.e. not making the grade?

I thought OCU was flush for staff - hence the CFS posting??

[Gundog01]

Surely there have been suspensions due to 'inability to pass on their own merits' right?? i.e. not making the grade?

I thought OCU was flush for staff - hence the CFS posting??

2OCU havent lost anyone due 'ability' that I know of for at least 2 years.

76 Sqn and 6 Sqn are a different story. 2-3 piggy drivers have failed recently and there is usually 1 or 2 failures per course at 76 lately.

Rumors are that the product from 2FTS isn't what it used to be. Can anyone confirm????

[Chronic Snoozer]

Rumors are that the product from 2FTS isn't what it used to be. Can anyone confirm????

Yeah, ever since Sir Richard Williams graduated its been going downhill......:ugh::rolleyes:

[Naked_recommiting]

- I beleive Sale representatives come to WLM for the instructional training for the FCI's, at the start of their FCI course. I don't think they will ever go to Sale, I can't see what that would acheive.

- I have heard there has been a suspension lately, an ex piggy pilot trying to convert back to single seat.

[Captain Sand Dune]

Rumors are that the product from 2FTS isn't what it used to be. Can anyone confirm????
I can confirm that the average delay from finishing BFTS and starting at 2FTS is anything from 3 to 6 months. The delay for 2FTS graduates starting OPCONs is anyones guess theses days.:ugh: Now that wouldn't affect quality, would it!?:hmm:
Weren't like that when I were a lad! My logbook shows 6 weeks from my final handling test at 1FTS to GF1 in the Macchi at 2FTS.:ok:
Yeah, ever since Sir Richard Williams graduated its been going downhill...... Brilliant!:}

[Toppie]

Maybe ACG will see fit to re-establish a staff liability at CFS then?! I'm sure they'll want some input at the coal face if this goes ahead.:rolleyes:

[Naked_recommiting]

I'm not sure I understand, what would be the benefit of sending FCI's to Sale? While there is a short 'domestic' conversion onto the hornet, the studs already have some considerable jet time - the FCI's focus is surely on producing a Sqn ready wingman, not the worlds finest circuit pilots (although I am sure there is a marg at the ready for domestic mistakes!).

[Silent T]

Toppie,

I think there has always been an ACG liability at CFS. There had been for at least the last five years and probably more, but to the best of my understanding ACG has filled these slots with guys who have not actually flown (or at least passed) an F18 or F111 conversion. ie dudes who went back to be 'operational' hawk pilots.

I could be wrong though, but a while ago it seemed that ACG could not afford to lose their 'real' pilots, so would fill them with the hawk guys. I'm not trying to piss the hawk guys off, just stating what it looks like to me.

[Naked_recommiting]

I think you're right, although I am sure someone a little more current could shoot me down. The drain on the Sqn's, given amount of training to have someone up to speed, and the general shortage of 'operational' pilots makes it hard to select those to become hawk QFI's etc, let alone CFS slots.

[SumDumChick]

Boys,

I think you'll find there was a Hornet guy at CFS as recently as 12 months ago. Even managed to make it into the Roulettes! Now those guys rock

[Silent T]

Was that the Hornet guy who hadn't flown a RAAF hornet for around 5 years?

[Chronic Snoozer]

Are you his girlfriend?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

If D & G General Aviation & Questions (http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=91) is "The place for students, instructors and charter guys", what the ? is this thread doing in here?

[Captain Sand Dune]

Posted to keep this at the top of the D & G General Aviation & Questions page, thereby annoying the Dr who is obviously angling for a mod's position!:}

The "last Hornet guy" at CFS is exactly that. ACG have turned off their "liability" at CFS. Won't stop the knucks whinging about the "poor standard of graduates" though!:E

[Silent T]

I don't think that is quite right Cap Sand Dune. I'm pretty sure there is a guy down there who is filling an ACG slot, granted not a hornet dude, but the ACG 'slots' are still there

[Toppie]

CSD is correct. There are no more ACG slots at CFS. The FJ guy is surplus and not filling an ACG slot. This understandable given the amount of QFIs needed in the FJ world. The point is, you can't complain about graduates on one hand (if anyone really is complaining) but not contribute to a fix.

Either way, CFS oversight of airborne instruction by all ACG instructors, which is one of their roles, will probably do very little to improve FJ grad rates anyway. I agree FCIs fill a pretty specialist role and should probably be supervised by senior QFIs in their own FEG.

[TruBlu351]

Boys,

I think you'll find there was a Hornet guy at CFS as recently as 12 months ago. Even managed to make it into the Roulettes! Now those guys rock

lol! Umm, actually 12 months and 24 days :}

There have always been ACG "slots" at CFS, but that position gets filled like a sine wave to match current manning levels. 3 years ago they were flush, not so much these days. Ideally one Hornet and Pig guy.....makes it heaps easier to conduct annual instructor checks.....however 2 hawk guys at the moment filling those slots (1 may have recently left).

Sending Hornets to Sale wouldn't be a good idea. I vote the mighty CT4.

The FCI's are a mini CFS unto themselves who do all their internal checking. CFS only checks out the QFI's & OFI's.........but traditionally run a mini course for them on basic instructional technique......nothing major.

Was that the Hornet guy who hadn't flown a RAAF hornet for around 5 years?

That's called the training command vortex. You can still see the dragging claw marks on the highway.

[Gundog01]

The FCI's are a mini CFS unto themselves who do all their internal checking. CFS only checks out the QFI's & OFI's.

Is there an annual check for IPs??? And if so, who does it???

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Hey FTDK, what does the I in FCI stand for?

Next question... :ok:

So the RAAF is "General Aviation" these days huh?

Dr :8

[Naked_recommiting]

No, but the administrators haven't offered a 'D & G Awesome Aviaiton & Questions' forum yet, so you'll just have to sit tight and learn something FTDK.

I don't think you'd find anyone has any issues with the guys out of 2FTS, the progression really comes at the hawk training point and into 2OCU.

I don't think CFS would have anything to offer qualified FCI or hornet IP's for that matter - the intial instructional technique, breifings and debriefings information would be/is very worthwile I assume.

Any current guys able to comment?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

The FCI's are a mini CFS unto themselves who do all their internal checking.
CFS only checks out the QFI's & OFI's.
Is there an annual check for IPs???


To learn something, I'd first have to know what the hell they are talking about!

Dr :8

[Gundog01]

To learn something, I'd first have to know what the hell they are talking about!

FTDK, dont bother reading the thread in that case. Problem solved

[Naked_recommiting]

In fact, a quick review of FTDK's post will show a lack of 'value adding' input to most threads. Much like RAAF FCI's going to Sale (in order to offer some relevance to my post!) :)

[rapiddescent]

Tru Blu 351,

How is Honkers these days???

[OZBUSDRIVER]

ACG-air combat group???
FCI- fighter conversion instructor???
CFS-central flying school
QFI- qualified flying instructor
2FTS flying training school
2OCS-Operational conversion school
FJ-fast jet
FTDK-fork tail doctor killer:E
OFI? operational flying instructor???
IP?

I got kids in AAFC who are going to enjoy GSTs to ES a whole lot more if this turns out to be true:ok:

[TruBlu351]

Is there an annual check for IPs??? And if so, who does it???

Howdy.....an IP, as the US calls them, falls under the RAAF OFI equivilent. ie: an instructor who is a specialist instructor on a specific aircraft type.....ala Hornet instructor from Canada or US navy.

CFS technically performs annual checks on these guys however they can nominate one of the guys up there (......QFI given magic powers :} ) if they can't make it. It's pretty dumb sending a transport guy up there for a few 1v1 6K sets as it makes for a very unrealistic student!

......Honkers is OK, but not on my fav top 10 list of places to live :bored:

[rapiddescent]

oh well, at least you're allowances are good.

[TruBlu351]

oh well, at least you're allowances are good.

They suck for the 1st two years and so does the pay. I could think of better options these days.

[oldm8]

TruBlu

So we are going to see you back here then? Morale is pretty high in the wing at the moment. You would love it!

[oldm8]

Actually the funny thing is we haven't seemed to have had any Charlie input on this thread.

I bet its because they are all paranoid using about sites like this.

[shadowoneau]

It's not an Airline or RPT carrier is it?I've come across the saying if we didn't have armament, the RAAF would be he largest unscheduled airline.

The RAAF in the past has also been referred as a large aeroclub, for that matter :}

[rapiddescent]

The 'Charlie's' are at work Oldm8...7 till 7 every day.

no time for pprune