Aircraft operating overhead outside a/d opening hours

[luigi_m_]

We've had a number of complaints recently of large jet aircraft flying overhead outside the aerodrome's opening hours, between 22:00 til 03:00. Although there is a VOR at Biggin Hill, we have been told the jets have been coming down to 50 or so feet, with some locals even telling us that planes have landed in the middle of the night.
As the airport is unstaffed overnight, except for sleeping security guards, we have no way to prove or disprove this. I did speak to a pilot based at Cranfield today saying they have had similar claims, believed to be military helicopters.
Two questions. Firstly, what is the likelyhood of it military jets "buzzing" the airfield, and secondly, what height are aircraft legally allowed to operate down to outside of an airports opening hours?

[Dizzee Rascal]

You should check the ANO, section 2 page 5 and 6 or post the question in the military forum.

After the airport operational hours, at Biggin Hill anyway, ATC have no involvement of what goes on, what those aircraft which may be exempt from the low flying rule do in Glass G airspace is their business .

At the end of the day, outside the operational times published in the AIP when the airport is closed, the ATZ is in-active so, providing aircraft obey the relevant rules of the air then that’s up to them. It would be different if the airport were in CAS or (or a Government AD) or were listed as active H24.

Of course if low flying or landings/takeoffs are really taking place out of hours (which I doubt they are) then let’s hope nobody attempts it on the 26th April!
http://www.bigginhillairport.com/ANT_pr1.pdf

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Luigi.. Large jet aircraft don't come down to 50 ft in the dark over an unlit civil aerodrome! Where do people dream up this nonsense?? In any event, ATC would know almost certainly about any movements (ATC in that area is provided from the London Terminal Control at Swanwick).

Police helicopters operate throughout the night and may well fly very low. Perhaps one of those was seen/heard??

I just read Luigi's profile - I can't believe it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dizzee Rascal]

With respect HD, "ATC in that area" as you put it do not know about every flight taking place, as I said, the area which luigi is referring to is class G where we all know and expect all types of flights to operate at any time of the day or night unknown to any ATSUs.

I doubt movements are taking place after the normal hours at Biggin Hill and I doubt large jets are coming down to 50ft. What these local people are seeing as they crawl out of the The Crown pub at 2am is more likely than not to be one of the 2 or 3 police helicopters chasing stolen cars between (the well known to the poilce ASU) New Addington council estate and Biggin Hill below 500ft as they are entitled to do as they are exempt from the low flying rule. If it is not the police, it might well be the military on a low level night sortie using the VOR (owned and operated by NATS) who are also exempt from some of the ANO or aircraft in the Biggin hold for Heathrow at a level not at all low.

When they say "large jets" I wonder how large they mean?

If the local residents seriously belive that movements are taking place then perhaps Bromley council should review their own CCTV recordings that they are rumored to have installed around the airport to keep track of out of hours movements!

Luigi, when you posted this had you just crawled out of the The Crown?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Dizzee.... Let's put it this way... if there was any aerial activity around Biggin Hill in the middle of the night ATCOs at TC would become curious. I sat in front of the radar for many, many years and you get used to what shouldn't be happening. OK, low cover of the NATS radars doesn't go down to 50ft at Biggin, but you'd sure see it before it descended that low. The police helicopters talk to Heathrow Director all night so ATC knows where they are..

It's beyond all belief that there would be a number of such incidents without ATC knowledge. Believe me, if anything untoward happens the phones start ringing....

[chevvron]

We used to get complaints of out of hours movements at my airfield.
Solution? Switch the ILS off when you go home, you'll find it works wonders!!

[luigi_m_]

Chillout HD, I'm just relaying comments from the local wildlife at Biggin and happened to ask what the regulations are surrounding flights outwide a/d hours, read the question numbnuts.

Dizzee, you know you'll never catch me with an alcoholic beverage in my hand, what do you think I am, a pilot...

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

luigi... Thank you for your extreme rudeness, which sums up what sort of person you must be. Thankfully, ALL the ATCAs I ever worked with were polite, good-humoured professionals for whom I had extremely high regard.

My response to you was, I thought, good humoured. If you are really employed in ATC you should not have to ask such questions on here - talk to the ATCOs you work with or to Thames Radar or Heathrow on the phone. Best of all - go and visit TC and sit with the guys there. They'll tell you that no large jet aircraft is going to come down to 50 ft over Biggin Hill at night and military jets don't go bombing around the TMA beating up airfields either. They used to, but that's many years ago and they were always under ATC control..

[niknak]

There is a possibillity, remote as it is, that the airport owners have given permission for the MOD to use the airfield out of hours.
At civillian airports I've worked at in the past, this has taken place (and still does), the a/c are usually C130s and operated on a lights out/NVG basis.
I once waited up for them and aside from an initial disturbance there was hardly any noise & you'd certainly never know they'd been unless you'd seen them.
I know that Biggin is noise sensitive etc, but this sort of activity is not usually subject to planning by laws, so they could get away with it.

Luigi

HD may be old, but I'm sure that his nuts are probably far more experienced than yours and that they haven't shrivelled up just yet:p:E

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Hi Niknak.. Trust you're well. I had heard of such arrangements, but would doubt if it happened at Biggin without TC knowing about it. In the dark of the night there ain't much to do and the sudden appearance of something hefty on the radar would stimulate great interest. If it then disappeared over Biggin, reappearing a few seconds later people would get very interested and the matter would be investigated. Of that I am certain. If the Biggin aerodrome owners approved such activity it would have to be "known" by TC.

We used to have F-111s doing fly-bys at Heathrow in the middle of the night.. until one dumped fuel and lit it up with the reheat one night. Everything hit the fan big time!!

[Flightman]

:eek:

Did it bust the noise limits HD? :ok:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Just slightly... 1 or 2 db!!! I didn't see that episode, but I did get involved in a couple of Tankbusters one night - great fun (for us).

[ShyTorque]

I did get involved in a couple of Tankbusters one night

....rather sounds like a saturday morning confession after a good night out in Newcastle :p

[Roffa]

The radars are still being recorded overnight.

Get some accurate times from those doing the complaining then ask your manager to ask TC if they can check the replay for anything strange going on.

Unless it's somewhat stealthy it should show up.

In the last few weeks there have been various calibration a/c for various services (as in ILS or VOR, not military) flying past Biggin during the night period but they're not large, not noisy and they don't go down to 50ft. Well not over Biggin anyway.

Whilst those of us that do nightshifts at TC on the approach sectors don't necessarily stare fixatedly at the radar if we don't have to i.e. none of our own traffic about, we are looking at it often enough to notice unusual goings on and I haven't myself seen nor heard anyone else mention such shenanigans.

[Dizzee Rascal]

Get some accurate times from those doing the complaining then ask your manager to ask TC if they can check the replay for anything strange going on.

No need to give NATS any more money, we record the radar* ourselves!

The LL 23cm which, after trials was (IIRC) deemed to be the most appropriate for low level cover around this area.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Dizzee.... So Biggin records the radar H24??

[anotherthing]

HD,

At that time of night Thames Radar is not manned and Heathrow are usually 'resting their eyes'.
Phoning either for info about what happened, or more likely didn't happen a few days previous during the wee small hours would be no use!

Another slightly more feasible option is a Fat Albert on NVGs doing an approach... possible, probably unlikely, but more feasible than jets at 50'.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

anotherthing..... I know, but people are there and some guys are watching the radar (TMA south?) and something as has been discussed would be noticed. Do you imagine a Herc would go wandering around that part of the LTMA without talking to anyone?

[anotherthing]

A Fat Albert from 47 Sqn RAF would be more than capable... enuff said

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Well, I'd take a great deal of convincing that it wouldn't be "seen", and if it wasn't seen by ATC the phones would be ringing from the stock-broker belt!

[anotherthing]

HD,

I am in agreement with you, just giving some more likely explanation (however far fetched) than a "jet at 50' "!!

[speedrestriction]

I've encountered C130s doing out-of-hours, lights off work out of a quiet GA airport down the southwest and even they were in contact with the local radar unit.

[Roffa]

anotherthing,

At that time of night Thames Radar is not manned and Heathrow are usually 'resting their eyes'.

Up until 0300hrs rather than resting their eyes, whilst there will be no inbounds, LHR will likely have at least one if not two copper choppers on frequency to keep them awake.

So they are sat by the radar and keeping an occasional beady eye on it therefore any C130s or anything else flogging about at low level is likely to be noted.

Dizzee, if you're recording the H23 then why not look at your own recordings to see what's been happening, or do you switch the tape off at night?

[Dizzee Rascal]

Dizzee, if you're recording the H23 then why not look at your own recordings to see what's been happening, or do you switch the tape off at night?

Because I know nothing untoward is happening during the night!

I said these reports are likely to be the police choppers! If I thought something was happening I would request a copy of the DVDs and would love to sit down for hours on end watching it.:\

[Dizzee Rascal]

Dizzee.... So Biggin records the radar H24??

Yep.

Sending this bit in order to meet the minimum of 10 character requirement!

[anotherthing]

Roffa,

I am well aware of what EGLL Dir does at night, thanks.

They will usually have assumed the reclined position well before 0300 - if the police call, it does not exactly involve much in the way of monitoring.

The ATCO will still possibly be reclined, or chatting to the GS, but at the same time will keep a weather eye out on the on or 2 aircraft they have on frequency.

A/C that to be honest, have only called them because they have to; not because they need to to safely accomplish their task :ok:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

anotherthing.... The airspace around Biggin has controlled traffic even when Heathrow has no traffic. A large aeroplane lurking around would be noticed by Heathrow or Gatwick or TMA controllers, of that I have absolutely no doubt. If such an aeroplane were to fly in that area without making contact then controllers would presumably be taking avoiding action against it as it would constitute "lost or radio failed" and that would lead to an investigation.

I'm inclined to think this thread is getting rather silly so I'll contribute no further..

[anotherthing]

HD

As an experienced current LTMA controller who does a fair share of nights, I think I am more than qualified to talk about what happens in the TCR in this day and age.

If I or any other controller happens not to have an aircraft on frequency at that moment in time, we will not be watching the radar. The loud-speaker will be on, a handset set up to transmit and we will be reading a book, or chatting, or catching up on admin.

I have already said in 2 previous posts that the liklehood of a jet or even a C130 doing what was postulated is remote.

Please don't try to tell me how that Ops room works, I know because I work there... not 'used' to work there. And yes, you are correct it is getting silly, because people who do not have a clue about current working practices or the current Ops room layout try to tell people who do that they don't know how things work!

[Brian81]

Oh dear....

*I'm about to throw a cat amongst the pigeons*

I know of an incident at an airport (which may or may not be the one were discussing) where the security guard reported an aircraft landing outside of the aerodrome operating hours (by about an hour). He wrote this in the watch log (at the unit that may or may not be the one were discussing) & told ATC about it the next day.

Where the incident went from there I'm not wise enough to say.

Just to say; it clearly does (& at least once did) happen. Someone time the last few years.

************************

One other thing,
As I read this thread I question; are some of us singing from different hymn sheets? Biggin Hill AIRPORT is inside Class G (& beneath Class A TMA). Maybe some are thinking that we're talking about stuff inside CAS???

I'm pretty sure the thread starter means an aircraft solely outside CAS.

And whilst I'm frantically typing; the ATM at Biggin (feed from LL) is rather patchy in places. I feel whilst a 'big aircraft' flying that low at that time is very very unlikely to go unoticed, in practical theory - it is entirely possibly that an aircraft of smaller size could possibly get to Biggin without being seen by radar but definately heard by residents.

*I hereby deny all knowledge of any said/unsaid events at any airport which may of may not exist & absolve myself of all attributable knowledge. I am not a pilot. & if I was (which Im not) I certainly wouldn't do something as stupid as that. Fact.

Traaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.:ok:

[Dizzee Rascal]

I know of an incident at an airport (which may or may not be the one were discussing) where the security guard reported an aircraft landing outside of the aerodrome operating hours (by about an hour). He wrote this in the watch log (at the unit that may or may not be the one were discussing) & told ATC about it the next day.

Just to say; it clearly does (& at least once did) happen. Someone time the last few years.

Ahh, yes but this was know to the airport and was not a "large jet" between 22:00 and 03:00am!

In fact, I know of at least 3 or 4 such incidents where helicopters have landed after hours in the last 6 years however, they all occurred during day light hours and from what I have heard, they all were charged (and paid) the fairly hefty extension fee rather than be prosecuted (but that's an entire new thread).

These days, the security guards on duty during the night are alleged to be (at least this week they are anyway) mobile on the airfield all night so hopefully, they would see or hear or even feel an aircraft landing/departing or coming down to 50ft!.

PS. Brian81-sorry I forgot to call you and put you on loud speaker during the meeting however NTR, next meeting due in 2 years so will do so then! Nice champagne thanks to the new SATCO.

GOOD DAY.

[Brian81]

Hi DR.

Yeah, thanks for the non existant call... lol. There's me sat watching my mobile all night... you men, you're all the same... ;-)

& Champagne eh??? What happened to this cheese we we're all promised... "A house made of cheese!" he said....

LOL!

back to the matter in hand; define large jet...

As ATCOs I imagine we'd do a pretty good job of providing a definition. If we see *A JET*, we probably DO SEE *A JET*.

Joe Public however, I imagine, would have very wide ranging definitions...

just like the ones who call up & leave snotty little messages "a massive jet just passed directly over my house at about 50ft

When in fact it was a PA34 at 2400ft...

You know what would solve this dont you??? A webcam in the tower pointed towards the runway so I can watch from the comfort of my own lounge. serious.

Traaaaaaaaaaa.:ok: