Aerologic [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Denti

1st Mar 2008, 14:01

Don't think anything is known yet and those that know something are probably under an NDA.

You are right of course, nobody in their right mind would take a job without knowing anything about the package, but you can still apply and if the package doesn't fit just dont pursue it further. During the Application process you will most probably given the relevant information, however i would think it will be subject to change in any case as there is at least the Lufty branch of Vereinigung Cockpit (german pilot union) involved and probably some kind of DHL thing as well.

NOR116,20

1st Mar 2008, 16:33

If I had to make personal recruitment I would ask about financial expectations of each applicant first before I would invest money in psycho tests and simulator sessions to find out afterwards that T&Cs don’t fit for the applicant.
Obviously these people in Aerologic are very convinced that applicants would not hesitate joining once they have applied. A bit arrogant!

Dani

13th Apr 2008, 15:27

Well, looks to me that they have excellent T&As and that they want to attract only the most experienced pilots. All your guesses where plain wrong.

Nightrider

13th Apr 2008, 18:01

Received also their mail today; be aware that the German system will make you pay their taxes and also the social security insurance. Deductions will be around 50%......:ugh:
Considering accomodation, living expenses etc will leave captains, the ones at the max end, with about €5500 a month maximum; F/Os not even half of this.....

EAM

13th Apr 2008, 18:12

Bull****.

Cpt Base will be around 5800€ net and F/O around 3900€ net and thats the base.
If you dont like...dont apply. Simple as that.

Denti

13th Apr 2008, 19:48

Boxshifter did the work allready and calculated some net income from the available gross income figures. The german tax and social security systems are very complicated so the actual figures might vary a bit, but this is pretty close to what my tax accountant got as well.

The pay is not really good especially for the required experience (no, i'm not talking what they posted on the website, rather about what they use as internal requirements) and the intended operation. It is well below Lufthansa's pay and around between 10% to 1% higher than that earned at Air Berlin if you calculate it around pure longrange flying.

But then, as EAM said, if you don't like it just don't apply.

FO base: €45.000,-- gross per year or €3.750,-- gross per month
€2.315,-- net per month

FO top: €90.000,-- gross per year or €7.500,-- gross per month
€4.663,-- net per month

FO with widebody experience €75.000,-- gross per year or €6.250,-- gross per month
€3.876,-- net per month

Captain base: €110.000,-- gross per year or €9166,-- gross per month
€5.711,-- net per month

Captain top: €157.000,-- gross per year or €13.083,-- gross per month
€8.175,-- net per month

Taken from here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4021310&postcount=88).

Dani

13th Apr 2008, 20:55

OK, got the message. LH isn't much higher if you consider a CMD basic pay of 130 k€. The grey haired one get a bit more of course, but that's after long hard years in the company. AeroLogic offers this pay at the beginning.

I thought that you don't have to pay 100% taxes if you don't fly over Europe all the times. Privatair has an agreement for their German part: Because they could prove that they only fly some single digit percentage on European soil, they could reduce the tax - coming to around 50% or so. What says your tax accountant?

Cheers,
Dani

Denti

13th Apr 2008, 21:13

Interesting information about the Privatair thing, have to ask my tax guy about that. As far as i know though no german airline does that at the moment. However all have a tax free part of income, but that is not for flights outside germany but for flying at night and during weekends/holidays.

How big that portion is is a thing between the company and it's relevant tax authority, if they can prove that a lot of the flying takes place during the night or weekends the tax free portion can become quite substantial. I believe AB had the highest part in the past at around 25% tax free, that has changed though with the changed route network and less charter flying. Lufthansa sits around 16% tax free as far as i know.

EAM

14th Apr 2008, 08:57

Tax is very simple:
You live and work in germany, you pay tax in germany.
You just work in germany but dont live there, means no bank account, no german cell phone etc you might pay your tax in your home country.

But also thats gonna change. Company german, tax german.
But taxes here are not much worse than in other countries.

Dani

14th Apr 2008, 12:35

That has changed already. If company German then German tax. Since 2007.

Knee Trembler

16th Apr 2008, 13:02

"Thank you for your interest in our company and your patience during our recruitment process until now.

As you might have noticed our homepage is temporarily closed for new applications.

We have vacancies for about 200 to 230 Pilots until 2011. Since the 28th of January, when we started our webpage, we received an incredible number of applications. More than 1800 applicants from all over the world got themselves listed in our database.

In March and April we have been able to complete our first screening week with great success. More than half of the applicants passed our three-step- program (psychological and cognitive tests, simulator assessment & interview).

The next screening event will take place during the first week of May.

Right now we are looking for experienced wide-body crews with worldwide flight experience, who will operate our first two aircraft in 2009.

Since training for non type-rated crews is much more intense than training for pilots with B777 rating, the first two screenings had a focus on the demanding time frame to get non-type-rated people ready to go. There will be two more screening events in 2008, where the majority of applicants will be type rated on B777. This group of pilots will have to complete a relatively short difference course prior line release and will be available for employment in early 2009. We also do plan for several more screening events in 2009, this time with focus on first officers.

Being a start up company some things develop quickly others require a lot of attention to detail. In the meantime we are finally able to release the contract terms and conditions for our flight crews."

Since you are one of our applicants you get this information (see below) today, definitely well in advance of the official placement on our homepage.

Next week you will also receive another email with a list of FAQ's (holiday regulation, OFF days etc.), which might be a useful source of information for you too.

Due to the large number of qualified applicants there is no chance to invite all of you for a screening. Even the limited number of screenings will take at least 18 – 24 months of time.

Hard Rock

10th Jun 2008, 07:23

So Knee Trembler, what are the T&Cs? I see that PPJN has a top of €90,000 for an FO & €160,000 for a Captain. Anything else to add to this such as pension, LOL, staff travel etc.?

Any information would be appreciated. :ok:

Knee Trembler

12th Jun 2008, 07:41

Hard Rock,

If you read the post above, then you know as much as me.

If I hear any more, I'll post it here.

KT

Iver

13th Jun 2008, 13:14

I bet Aerologic will be of interest to German pilots now flying 777s for Emirates or Etihad. Maybe they don't like the desert no more and want a change (even if money is less).

White Sausage

15th Jun 2008, 06:48

I am one of those Germans at EK. Why should I go back to the land of taxes, high prices and skyrocketing idiocy in politics? I don´t like DXB anymore, but Germany even less. And all this for much less money? Come on, get real! Aerologic´s T & Cs are so low, there are much better jobs in the east.

Nightfire

7th Jul 2008, 17:00

Same goes for me.
I'm a 777-driver in the Sandpit, and I came here because I didn't want to stay in Germany any more.
I left behind a ridiculous government that tries its best to destroy it's own aviation-industry, a decaying standard of living, high and rising taxes, inflation, and - unfortunately - also quite a lot of friends.
But I too will rather put up with the downsides over here in the Gulf, and let the rest of Germany vote for a their gang of Communists and Social-Democrats, if they think that's the solution. :ugh:
I'm now considering to sell my house in Germany and buying some property in Dubai instead. This place here is not paradise, but it's the closest there is to find. :D
I'm quite happy here.

Knee Trembler

8th Jul 2008, 12:23

At the risk of stating the obvious, if EK is so good, why are you surfing the Aerologic thread!

And in the interests of balance, I am a Brit who moved voluntarily to Germany, due mainly to disgust at the appalling way that the UK is developing (nanny state, paranoia, lack of discipline and respect and the most stupid aviation security policies outside the US!).

I like living in a country with clean streets, where the people are polite and I don't need to worry about being stabbed for £20! Oh and then there's the scenery, seasons, tradition and good food.

I do agree that the taxation sucks, but spend more than a few days in the UK and you will see how much less you get in a low(er) tax country.

Each to their own!

KT :)

jetopa

8th Jul 2008, 14:08

Interesting to read, that a Brit left his splendid isolation and finds himself being quite happy with us Krauts.

The bottomline - as always - appears to be: what are your expectations and what are you willing to suffer (or: pay for) for certain qualities of life? It's not that I doubt the quality of life in the sandpit, but if your social relations are somewhere in Europe, if you do care for seasons (I know that global warming is dampening them a bit, but still...) or would like to take a train-ride for a weekend trip to Paris or Amsterdam once in a while, then this part of the world is unbeatable.:ok:

I myself was looking into moving to neighbouring country with even higher taxes than in Germany due to the fact, that the entire package offered was very attractive.

In my personal opinion, Aerologic will be successful because the shareholders founded the company for the very reason to operate cargo aircraft with people who are significantly cheaper that the union-driven LH-employees. On top of that they most probably have filed for government-support in a region that's plagued with unemployment and structural deficiencies.

Nightfire

8th Jul 2008, 14:44

At the risk of stating the obvious, if EK is so good, why are you surfing the Aerologic thread!

Because my contract doesn't say that I'm not allowed to. :ugh:
Are you seriously asking me why I collect information? So why do I read aviation magazines or pprune?

I like EK, and I am happy with my job; what's wrong with that? It has its down-sides, and it is by no means perfect, but which company or country is perfect?

And there are certainly good arguments for Germany; there are also many worse countries to stay in. But having weighed the "pros" against the "cons", EK and Dubai are my first choice.

EAM

9th Jul 2008, 12:56

Think you got him wrong, you can read every thread, every magazin you want.
But if your are not interested in AeroLogic, why do you need to post it here and tell us how bad lovely Deutschland is?

I am not interested in EK nor EY, but I dont post this in the EK or EY threads, because noone cares. Also dont care about Jet or Korean and still there is no reason to post all this.
So why do you tell us all your reasons why you dont care about AeroLogic?
You dont wanna go there? Fine dont apply, thats it. Noone expects you to do it, so you dont have to explain. :rolleyes:

Nightfire

9th Jul 2008, 15:10

Well, no, I didn't mean to get personal against anyone. We're discussing about going or not going to Aerologic.
And I stated my reason for not applying there.

stardustcologne

10th Jul 2008, 00:25

Hey well, people stay calm.

They are very professional people from which I really like to learn... and there are some people who are looking for something new. Last but not least this job coud be something desireable for us, let us take this into advantage all of it which is offered.

People who come from Germany could tell a bit about what the rest of us (you) can just imagine. Take it as a chance. Let them talk. And afterwards we deside.

White Sausage

11th Jul 2008, 06:50

Well said! As mentioned before, why shouldn´t we Krauts tell some of you what to expect and why we left? Obviously there was a reason for it. I just said that Aerologics T + C´s are not up to scratch, especially considering the taxes, fees, high prices, bad weather and so on. Of course there are worse places in the world, but there are also better ones. I am sure they get more than enough applications, especially from 737 or other narrowbody-drivers who see this as a chance to get their hands on a big ship. And then: Why not? Of course this is a chance, take it! I did the same when I came to the sandpit.
What I was trying to say is that I don´t think they will get enough bigship-drivers applying, and I guess this is the kind of pilots they need in the beginning to set up the operations. I stand to be corrected though...
So no reason for getting personal here just because our opinion doesn´t match with yours...:}

ReallyAnnoyed

11th Jul 2008, 07:47

To me, the prices in the teutonic capital are actually very low :ok: Funny that the Germans are leaving Der Vaterland while we Johnny Foreigners love it here, but if everyone is happy, there is no problem :)

White Sausage

12th Jul 2008, 11:03

Of course, for you Brits everything in other countries is cheap since in UK everything is bl:mad:y overpriced and hyperinflated. But that doesn´t mean it is the same for Germans who were used to reasonable prices (at least until the great Teuro raised its ugly head...).:ugh:
But I agree with you in one thing: Captain happy, everybody happy!:ok:

ReallyAnnoyed

12th Jul 2008, 23:23

Yeah, White Sausage, I'm not British though :p Regarding the euro, I think a few Brits might have second thoughts about it now, as the pound has slipped 15% in value in a year, but that's just conjecture.

sapco2

13th Jul 2008, 19:29

Just as a matter of interest - have Aerologic employed any non-German pilots yet?

I am just curious to know because I went for interview which I found to be tough but interesting. They've got a really good guy running the IQ tests on day one but I must say, I did wonder about the Lufthansa check captain conducting the 737 sim test on day 2; IMHO he had his own ideas of "fair play"! I got the distinct impression from the moment I met the man, he had no intention of allowing any foreign pilots through!

It struck me though if you're a 737NG rated German pilot with no long haul experience whatsoever, you could stand every chance of passing the sim and being offered employment!

I'd welcome any contrary feedback confirming Aerologic is a truly multi-cultural company!

warmkiter

13th Jul 2008, 19:50

Hi Guys

I can only confirm the previous posts about quality of living in Germany. If you qualify for the job at Aerologics, i would never ever consider to move to Germany and especially not to Leipzig. With your skills and knowledge you can get a better deal!

First of all, this place is in the middle of nowhere. They have clean new roads and autobahns payed by your taxes, but taking you to nowhere. You will not have ID tickets, so have fun commuting.

Taxes suck in Germany. 10% of the population pay 90% of the taxes and you will be one of the happy 10%. The former east German states are not the blossoming landscapes, the fat ex chancelor promised. These areas have high unemployment rates, lack of education and a real problem with racist behaviour due to a high frustration level. Consider that an extreme right wing party NPD gets elected in state counsils and state level parlament. This is one of the indications how these people think. If you are black, gay or something else not arian, many areas here are unsafe for you to enter. No joke!

Many guys working for the LH are commuting outside of Germany, not because they have, but because they can. A lot of highly qualified people leave the country every year and this braindrain is already a problem. Medical personel make double the money and have much better working conditions in Switzerland and hospitals in Germany have a problem to employ.

Inform your self about where are you going and how much you get for it and how much you pay. Money is not everything, but lack of it may only be acceptable if the rest of the deal is good.

I dont want to sound too critical, but dont let the shiny big ship fool you to work for pennies. In the end its the quality of life what makes us happy, not the TOW on the L/S.

Sunny greets from Spain

L

stardustcologne

13th Jul 2008, 23:37

Boah, ey, ich glaube jetzt reicht es aber, was geht denn hier eigentlich ab?! That's enough!

Yes, this is a part of the big cake "Germany" - but it is nothing different to some parts of UK, France or any other country which have a lot of foreigners living there.

Stop to do any political and racial disussion (especially when it is such an extreme one) in any thread which is only to find some information about an employing company. It is so much disgusting. All these self-glorifying bull****.

First of it all, I am so much sorry that an UK guy experienced bad luck in this assessment - but I am sure it is because they just don't really are looking for any applicants right in the moment. What I have heard a time ago (there is no proof, just rumors in German companies) that they would have difficulties in getting all the aircraft that they wanted to. That means they don't need so much staff right now. Maybe I am wrong, that's the fact we know and there were a lot of guys looking for a job with Aerologic here.

Hey, come one, I live in a German city which have really a lot of foreigners and hot spots. And I know about some really hot spots in the eastern parts of Germany, but it is not fair to build up some imagination of foreign pilots should better not apply here. That's not the fact, and I am sure, all companies which are really looking for good qualified pilots are considering foreign pilots as well and they are employing them, I know this because I have a lot of foreign fellows here working with me/us. Don't hesitate. But anyway, I am sorry for the UK guy who had bad luck, I don't know why.

There is no danger and no disadvantages for foreign pilots in Germany. You have to deal with the tax policy but you will have a lot of nice places and neighbours to live with. There are a lot of Britih and Irish, French and Asian and any any any people living here. And they live here a good life and they want to stay. This must have a reason as well! Maybe because not everything is so bad here as some pessimists want to tell you.

stardustcologne

14th Jul 2008, 00:05

And anyway.
Do you really think any - let's say - F/O on B777 who is looking for a job and who is interested in building some hours and working for one or two years in Germany (you can shuttle from really nice cities to Leipzig, you don't have to live in Leipzig) he is really interested in our problems in hospital matters? What is the parallel thing to Aerologic? Why should it be of any interest that the medical matters are facing some financial problems and that qualified doctors of medicine are getting better payment when they work in UK or Denmark??

The origin question was about roster and payment. So stop bothering all of us.

And by the way: The much much much most of the Lufthansa pilots are working in Germany and they are not commuting to somewhere else. Because they have their really nice houses with a really big garden in a really calm neighbourhood close to a high standard living. You are just bothering us all!

warmkiter

14th Jul 2008, 03:52

Hi Stardustcologne

First of all, maybe you practice some English before you try to reply. Its a bit like R/T. Think,Press,Talk :O

Nobody who applies for a B777 job is "building hours". :ugh:Nobody! :ugh: Maybe thats your case, but more senior pilots have really other preferences.

Leipzig is "the city", there are no other nicer cities to commute from around.

I understand "hot spots" in a positive way. In your vocabulary it seems to be a place to avoid. :confused: Where i live, hot spots are access to WIFI or places with a lot of hot chicks. Think about that.

T&C is lousy, its just another trick to circumnavigate the LH KTV.(T&C contract all LH pilots have fought for and are fighting for right now)

Maybe you didnt understand the "hospital matters", its about braindrain buddy. The flow is out of good old germany.

"boah ey" as your way to express your frustration tells tales about you to all native german speakers. its a bit like cockney for brits...east end anyway

I didnt say its a bad deal to live in germany. i just said, for a guy who qualifies for this job, there are better deals out there.

"enough" is a long way to go. i can not find any racist comments in this discussion. yes, its political but this is life. wake up and face it. the politics in germany are changing this country. some like the direction some dont. Please be warned that the german goverment changed the tax law for airline crew since 1.1. 2007. Everybody else can pay their taxes where they have their "center of interests" and live. The only exception are "Airline crews working for a german based employer" This is what i call equal rights for everybody!

"the much much most" LH pilots live in germany. yes maybe, but not in Leipzig, and not in FRA or MUC either. There is a very substantial amount of crew commuting. Not all of them commute outside of Germany but many do. do you know why, because the can.

good night and good luck

L

Nightfire

14th Jul 2008, 11:56

Reisst Euch etwas zusammen, besonders Du, Warmkiter.

We're discussing about wether or not to join Aerologic. Not to spit at each other.

sapco2

14th Jul 2008, 13:45

Ja... Lassen Sie uns nicht reißen einander in Stücke!

I met some genuinely nice German pilots at interview. The Lufthansa guy just happened to throw me off my stride but I'd be the first to admit there are personalities like his in every part of the world!

The screening procedure overall was a very interesting and worthwhile experience and I have to say I was happy not to have been selected.

I got the impression the company is trying too hard to be elitist which is likely to cause them problems in the future.

stardustcologne

14th Jul 2008, 13:54

Yes, I am sorry for that, but I was really upset about that posting. Germans who are arrogant like this are the reason why most Germans are very unpopular all over the world. Unfortunately I went down to a similar level but just wanted to show my annoyance about that. I would rather like to have this discussion more supportive and informative. So I will stop being annoyed about posting like the ones before and rather ignore them.

So, about Aerologic there is not much to tell right now, noone knows how operation will be. It is just assumption.

Denti told a lot about the probable net income, which is very helpful. But you have to take into account the cost of living in Germany.

Actually living in eastern Germany especially in the area of Leipzig is quite cheap. In comparison with the expensive cities like Koeln, Muenchen, Hamburg there you only pay half of prices for housing and gastronomy.

And when you need to have a calm life with plenty of nature around you, you will be very lucky there. If you rather need more entertainment, there are small towns like Magdeburg or Chemnitz quite close. But I don't really know if it is not too provincial there. I have been there for a few days and it was quite nice - but nothing compared to Koeln (:)).
I would rather think about moving to Berlin - but it depends on roster, because Berlin is a distance away from Leipzig. Living in Berlin gives everything ones heart desires. And there you find apartments more than double a size of those we have here in Koeln for a very reasonable price - and you are in the middle of everything.

But anyway, everyone has to see if the income is good enough for living and maybe saving some money, depending on what you have now and what you will find in Germany. For some pilots it would be a good step, others may have better options. I won't go to Aerologic, I will stay where I am now, changes are in other directions .
But I would never tell anybody rather not to come to Germany because everything is sooooo bad and people are sooooo "Nazi" (go away) - and to be honest: There are plenty of countries with a high tax system. You have to deal with the net insome and have to cope with the taxes. On the other hand, you have a very good health care here, and living is on a high standard (at least fo all of those who have an income like pilots do).

EAM

15th Jul 2008, 09:50

I love this, we ******* germans are probably the only ones in the world who always speak bad about their country.
Well I work in Italy (nice and sunny) and I live in Germany, because I like it here.

So as I said before, if you dont want to apply, Ok, but others might like it for different reasons.
BTW: I dont think that they will hire only one narroebody Cpt. there are enough longhaul pilots, TRI/TREs willing to move, where the DFO comes from.

Im nächsten EK/EY threat schreibe ich warum ich um Gottes Willen nicht in DXB/AUH arbeiten will.

Denti

15th Jul 2008, 14:22

Several things wrong here of course. It is not the Vereinigung Cockpit which will do all in its might, its the Konzerntarifkommission Lufthansa (company representative council of LH within the VC) that will do. VC and LH KTK are not the same and have very different interests in a lot of cases although the KTK is of course a part of VC.

Kraut

15th Jul 2008, 14:39

Lovely! It´s so nice to see the VC discussion even flipping over from PILOTS.DE to PPRUNE!
What VC and LH TK have in common is, to avoid eroding T&Cs. And that should be in the interest of all pilots.
And this is also relevant for AEROLOGIC!

EAM

16th Jul 2008, 13:35

Well said!

sapco2

16th Jul 2008, 14:44

Thanks for those kind words about the DHL pilots. I think some of us are perhaps a little bemused by what's happening! We shall be working alongside the Aerologic team over the coming years and I for one, look forward to saying Hello to those Aerologic pilots I met at interview.

Viel Glück!

A330-300

16th Jul 2008, 14:51

First of all, i want to apologize for not contributing to the topic...however there is one comment that ticks me off.

@stardust cologne: Yes, I am sorry for that, but I was really upset about that posting. Germans who are arrogant like this are the reason why most Germans are very unpopular all over the world.

This statement is clearly false. It might be true only considering europe, however even then i would assume it is not. Taking it into a worldwide perspective...germans are recognized in a very positive way. I could probably dig out the survey, proofing my above statement...however, I have better things to do and I personally believe it is not that important. Do avoid any misunderstanding, it is not intended to be personal.

Now talking about Leipzig...i don't see why some of you regard it as an awefull city as it is clearly not. Nevertheless, Berlin is only 1.5 hours away by car, depending on where you live in Berlin...as most of the Autobahn (Freeway) has no speed limit...furthermore the airport has it own freeway-exit...so that shouldn't be that big of a problem.

Best regards...

Burger Thing

17th Jul 2008, 02:05

Ah, another Cargo project of Lufthansa... :rolleyes: I hope they do better with Aerologic than with Jade Cargo in Shenzen, China. They fuxxed up big time there :ugh: Especially in the beginning they were a laughing stock among the aviation industry in Asia - especially because of the selection process for pilots :p

fullforward

23rd Sep 2008, 00:36

This place have been very silent.
C'mon, insiders, tell us what's all about!

46mph

29th Oct 2008, 17:01

as we already told you in our last email you were one of more than 900 captain candidates who applied fo a job with AeroLogic until we closed our hompage in the middle of this year.

Since we started our screening in March we have been able to recruit 26 captains (average experience 16000 hours) to get our operation going.

Unfortunately we were not able to invite all of you for our screening process.

We plan for continuous upgrading to keep a balanced seniority structure as long as possible. So right know it looks like, we will be hiring only first officers for the future.

If there should arise the need for more captains we will open our homepage again with more details.

For personal data protection your data will be removed from our data base and all files will be destroyed as of today.

Again - thank you very much for being interested in our company.

All the best for your future and many happy landings!