Help Required: Researching E3C Crash

[sonicstomp]

Hi Guys,

I am doing some research into the E3C Crash at Elmendorf AFB on the 22nd Sep 1995.

I am particularly after any CVR data, Accident Investigation Reports (including the USAF's own if it is available in the public domain) etc

In addition if anyone knows a good place to go to get any comparative data on engine performance (or lack of) under birdstrike that would be much appreciated. I am thinking engine design vs vulnerability to FOD etc....

Either post here or PM as required.

Any help, discussion etc much appreciated,

SonicStomp

[Pie Man]

A quick Google gives the following:

http://www.flightsafety.org/ap/ap_nov96.pdf

Pie

[sonicstomp]

thanks pie

[brickhistory]

As I lost friends as well as comrades in this accident, I'd be very nterested in why your are researching this?

[sonicstomp]

Brickhistory -

My intentions are legitimate and noble I assure you - I am looking to put together a presentation on the accident and any possible lessons identified (airfield bird management, crew actions upon encountering 2 eng failure after t/o etc) from the accident. The presentation and hopefully subsequent discussion will take place behind closed doors with currently serving UK AWACS crews. (of which I am one.... damn there goes my cover!)


Hope this allays any fears you have...

[brickhistory]

It does, thank you.

Try contacting both PACAF/SE (Safety) and the 3d WG/SE offices. Contact info available on the internet. If there are any USAF/USN exchange guys assigned with you, they should be able to help with contacts as well.

[sonicstomp]

Brick - thanks very much.

[Magnersdrinker]

I mind when this accident happened , it was not that long after we lost XV239 at Toronto airshow.

The AWACS im sure took birds after TO, I mind reading the Report but was a long time ago I cant mind all the details.

[nmt]

Sonic, PM me I have a good number for you. It should provide the correct contacts. Hasn't Scuba got any contacts at Tinker?

[sonicstomp]

Yeah will be chasing Scuba soon

Thanks nmt - expect PM soon

[The Swinging Monkey]

Sonic,

I spoke to Scuba over the weekend and he has the original USAF accident report, together with all the FSO details at Tinker.

The report, I recall, said that following a massive bird strike on T/O (Canada geese I think), three of the engines stalled and the aircraft crashed almost immediately, killing all on board. It was as a result of this, that the Captain of the NATO E-3A aborted the T/O (after V1)and managed to stop just in time: Very Lucky!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Awacscrash.jpg

TSM

[Milarity]

TSM, define 'just in time'.

The NAEW E-3A ran off the end of the runway, tore off its undercarriage on the sea wall, and broke its back across the runway centre lights pier.
You should have been a supplier!

[Lima Juliet]

Milarity

define 'just in time'

You should have been a supplier!

Very amusing for a Sunday evening! Swonging Minkey, that has to be the biggest understatement of all time...

http://www.strangedangers.com/images/content/7390.jpg

Just a flesh wound...

[sonicstomp]

Thanks for the posts guys!

I also find it an interesting spin-off that the Elmendorf accident may have led in some way to the Preveza one - what was the time interval between the events?

[Milarity]

Aktion accident - 14 Jul 96.
The pilot elected to discontinue the take-off in the absence of a confirmed malfunction based on his belief that observed birds would trigger a catastrophic failure of 2 engines, and that it would be better to stay on the ground.

[L J R]

And a concorde pilot elected to continue T/O with a fire warning - BUT if he HAD elected to reject the T/O, it would have been a hull loss - but maybe - just maybe some survivors. Dammned if you do and dammned if you do not..!

[stickmonkeytamer]

I'm sure that the original tail of the aircraft is the one acting as gate guardian just inside the entrance to Geilenkirchen Air Base in Germany.

SMT

[Milarity]

LJR,
Quite right, I was not.

My comments are taken from the accident report almost verbatim. The captain admitted that the Elmendorf crash was foremost in his mind when he elected to shut the throttles after V2. There were no adverse indications on the flight deck as there had been no damage from the minor bird-strike.

The captain reacted to a perceived threat in the way he thought most appropriate.

I apologise if it sounded like I was passing judgement.

The board acknowledged the link between the two accidents as playing a major part in the captain's decision making process.

Mils.

[Magnersdrinker]

http://www.strangedangers.com/images/content/7390.jpg


Quick BDR and a LIM she will be good to go again in 24 hours :ok:


Where did this happen as i know Geilenkirchen very well and I know for fact its not near the sea ?

[Archimedes]

Some coverage here (http://www.af.mil/news/airman/1297/bash.htm) as well (whoever chose the bye-line for the story wants to have a severe word with himself though :ugh:). If you navigate through the second page on bird-scaring at Elmendorf to this link (http://www.af.mil/news/airman/1297/bash6.htm), some of the CVR transcript is provided.

[k3k3]

For Magners: www.e3a.nato.int/html/fob.htm

[sonicstomp]

i wonder whether the crews (in both instances) had an AUW in mind at which there would be a cut-off between a successful fly-out on 2 engines (the double assy being the more limiting) and the need to crash-land straight ahead....Clearly it is better to crash land straight ahead with the gear down than try a fly-out that then leads to a catastrophic loss of directional control...

[Milarity]

In the Aktion accident, the Board focussed on what went through the captain's mind quite a lot. There were several factors considered, one of which was his F16 background (there could have been enough runway ahead to have stopped an F16). Could he have acted instinctively based on a mental picture trained to interpret F16 performance?

[sonicstomp]

Milarity,

Yes his FJ background is mentioned specifically in the accident report and one of the reccomendations is that trg in large jet performance is improved across the force, particularly for those that get accelerated to command due to non-heavy experience.

Difficult to really know - I suspect the spectre of Elmendorf was the driving factor in that split-second decision to reject.....

Armchair commentary is a fantastic sport :-)