Air Parks

[scooter boy]

I heard a rumour that an Airpark may be being developed South of Brizzel?

Anybody know more?

SB

[breakscrew]

There is a very nice airfield at Weston-super-Mare which could do with a make-over.

[julian_storey]

Whenever an airport comes under threat from developers wanting to build houses on it, I have often wondered why nobody has considered a US style airpark.

Being the sad kind of chap that I am, I would love a house on an airfield that I could taxy a plane up to :O

[DaveW]

A residential airpark has been seriously considered at least twice in the UK: the first time somewhere in Shropshire (near Telford IIRC) and more recently - in the last decade - at Henstridge.

The Henstridge proposal reportedly went all the way to the relevant Cabinet Minister responsible for planning, who denied the application. That was John Prescott.

[radicalrabit]

With the anal retentive types we have in planning can you see them allowing anything of this nature? HSE WOULD COME UP WITH 146 REASONS WHY ITS TOO DANGEROUS.:ugh::ugh:

[xrayalpha]

Radical Rabbit,

Hope you are wrong.

We are just starting the planning process - at the concept stage - to build a house on top of a hanger at Strathaven Airfield!

Biggest problem is what to do with the space - if it is the same size as our new hanger (9,000sq ft) then we don't know what rooms to fit in it! And carpet at just 10 quid a m2 comes in at the best part of 10k! So cost is another issue.

Rather than an airpark, we are also looking at holiday cottages aimed at encouraging pilots and their families to holiday in Scotland.

Very early stages, but will keep folk informed,

XA

[HeliCraig]

Radical Rabbit,

I wouldn't worry about the HSE, at least you can challenge them with a bit of logic... it's the environmentalists that would scupper it - you're legally / morally not allowed to argue with a word they say you know! :rolleyes:

"Why do you need a house with a runway... what folly... you could catch a bus instead." etc.


HC.

[airborne_artist]

I've a perfect location for an airpark - Chalgrove. Now if only the Martin family could move the family business, I can get on with building it..

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

I always thought that Shoreham would make a nice airpark. As soon as the current owners have made a total hash of it and attempt to sell it on, one could get round the current planning conditions by keeping the runway, but also fill the grass bits with 1000s of houses & personal hangars. That way, the new owners could charge pilot's to use the runway, as well as the local council charging residents council tax for the houses. South Coast, great location.Brilliant!!

But because of the ridiculous planning laws in the UK, there's about as much chance of seeing a succesful airpark here as seeing a Lib Dem government in power:rolleyes:

I realise the USA is a whole lot bigger than the UK, but Airparks are a way of life, and there doesn't appear to be much opposition to them. Just mention the word aeroplane here, and the local huggies thinks there's a major international airport being built.

[bookywooky]

<P>What a great idea, the council down here are jumping at the chance to get more housing built as soon as possible. Only problem is they would agree to the scheme and then conveniently forget about the runway on account that it gets in the way of more houses!

:mad: :*

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

BookyWooky,

As I said, I'm led to believe that Shoreham has some form of Planning Permission with Conditions which says it has to be an airport/airfield. Otherwise, I'm sure it would have been a housing estate years ago.

Would make a great airpark I think, maybe the Erinaceous Group might be able to make money out of that?:rolleyes:

[tangovictor]

AA if, the Martin Bakers sold up, which I doubt, they would.
The chances of an airport / airpark would be nil, as the very local village would complain about the noise, before it had a chance to start and with the gov's recent housing policy, it would become a vast housing estate in less than a year, great shame

[muffin]

Bratton was the place near Telford where the first proposed development foundered.

The problem is that the housing density on a fully developed ex airfield site is so many times higher than that which could be achieved on an airpark that the economics simply don't stack up. As we don't have large areas of spare land, the only way an airpark could be viable is to put it in a part of the country where there is no huge pressure to build low cost housing.

Bentwaters?
West Raynham?
Sculthorpe?
Oban if I dare mention it?
Aberporth?
Macrihanish?

[niknak]

Bentwaters - already an industrial estate of some magnitude, with no possibility of planning for housing or future avaition use ever being granted.
West Raynham - detailed plans already exist for housing to be developed there.
Sculthorpe - remains in the hands of the MOD and is in regular use by the military for para drops and airborne assault/special forces training.
Oban - an established community airport with no infrastucture for silly ideas such as an airpark.
Aberporth - for goodness sake, do some research as what is already there!
Macrihanish - already in use as a community airport, otherwise it is still owned by the MOD who lease it out and still use it several times a year for military exercises.

[radicalrabit]

Dunsfold already plans to build on it would be ideal ...

[Cricket23]

I was reading the in 'Today's Pilot' about one of the air parks in Florida and wondered what people's experience was. ie I was idly thinking, whow that would be great, should I save my pennies and retire to the US or is the reality a bit different? What about serving of the aircraft etc.

Anyway, has anyone got any real life experience?

Cheers,

C23

PS - are there any/many air parks in Europe and are they any good?

[TheGorrilla]

I believe there are plans to start up an airpark or two in europe, sadly not in the uk though. Would be nice to nip out for the morning rag and a pint of milk in a Extra 300 or Cub maybe if one is concerned about spilling ones juice.

[dublinpilot]

I imagine that they would be nice for a holiday home. Not so sure I'd like to live on an airfield though.

Sunday morning lie-ins would be a thing of the past!

Do you really want to go flying every day? Would you still want to go flying everyday after a year or two of doing so, or would it just become old hat?

dp

[On the Spot]

I rented from an FBO based on an Airpark south of Phoenix. I was warned not to taxi on side of the airfield closest to the residents as they were noise sensitive individuals. Crazy eh !

I have visited others where signs warn you that aircraft have right of way whilst taxying on the same road as vehicles entering the airpark. The houses were nicely spaced and the garages open at both sides so that you could simply taxi in and out with a car parked under each wing for efficiency. Great.

But the best type of fly home situation is a house on the lake. Minimal cross wind problems and you can always fish for your tea on the taxi in.

[IO540]

Lots in the USA.

Some in France.

I don't know about any running ones in Spain but a highly publicised and marketed project has been in the making for some years, near Murcia. Do a google for "air park spain" etc and you will find it. They originally planned to build 700 houses; drastically scaled down since and the runway is now finished. In an unattractive part of Spain though.

[tangovictor]

I was reading the in 'Today's Pilot' about one of the air parks in Florida and wondered what people's experience was. ie I was idly thinking, whow that would be great, should I save my pennies and retire to the US or is the reality a bit different? What about serving of the aircraft etc.

Anyway, has anyone got any real life experience?

Cheers,

C23

sorry to shatter your dream, UK citizens cannot retire to the US
90 days only, then out you go, even if, you have brought a new house
new car, new aircraft, have private health, and your pension is paid into
a US bank, tough, also stay 91 days, and you never ever get back in
Bizzare isn't it, the land of the free !
Obviously all waved if your a multi millionaire,

[IO540]

How much $$$ do you need? Most retiring-to-Spain British builders are worth £1M now; that's $2M.

I actually looked at the Spanish airpark a few years back. They were selling plots from £100k and house building options from £100k, so £200k to get in.

But when one thinks hard about this.... why? If you love flying, what you really want is an airfield nearby, but not the noise of planes taxiing literally past your house.

An airpark would be ideal for a residential flying school and the Murcia one was set up to support that. Almost nobody will be really living in that area.

Otherwise, you buy a house for the usual reason: a reasonable house in a nice location (not in some barren part of Spain). The French air parks tend to meet that requirement. In the UK, getting planning would be very hard in any nice location. A helicopter parked in the grounds of a big house is the only way to do that.

In terms of frequent business travel, very few people have the travel profile that would fit fixed wing in Europe. Those that need to travel by air a lot use a helicopter. Europe has killed off GA utility, with a hard IR, lack of IAPs, lack of airfields, etc.

[gpn01]

Wycombe Air Park ?

[Duchess_Driver]

"Wycombe Air Park"


.....laugh or cry?

[gyrotyro]

Glad that you agree that the best way to go is to have a house near to an airfield....

I have a 3 bedroom house for sale in France 10 minutes drive from a private airfield where the buyer can hangar their aircraft for £570 per annum.

The house is located in tranquil countryside with a trout stream and 1.25 acre paddock for horses if required.

email me for details.

[kalleh]

Here's an airpark in Siljansnäs,Sweden: http://www.siljanairpark.se

40 plots, all initally sold, now 1 or 2 for sale by owners who have changed their minds. Great international flavor too - check the flags on the plot map: http://www.siljanairpark.se/eng/plots.asp

[OliverWallace]

Hi,

Having discussed the possibility of an Airpark in the UK during this topic, I wonder if anyone would be so kind as to fill out this questionnaire on an Airpark within the UK. We would be looking at developing the first Residential Airpark in the UK, but before we invest we need to make sure that:

a) There is a demand for the Airpark lifestyle
b) That if there is we develop a suitable Airpark.

http://www.wallaceairpark.co.uk/Wall...tionnaire.docx (http://www.wallaceairpark.co.uk/Wallace Airpark Questionnaire.docx)

I am going to spend my life trying to get an Airpark in the UK so hopefully I will prove a lot of you wrong!

Thanks,

Oliver

--------------------------------------------------
Trying to build the first Residential Airpark in the UK:

Wallace Airpark

[alland2012]

Lots of Airparks in Florida, I have a friend with a home on one.He says the only regret they have is not buying a home there sooner...

Runway is well clear of the homes, taxing out to the ramp area/runway is by way of the residential area so care is needed when heading back to or from your home, most hanger their aircraft in the oversized garages attached to the homes.
They are gated communities so slim chance of meeting anyone who is not supposed to be there as you taxi along the street, they also have a golf buggy that can be used by any of the residents for safety to go ahead of you as you taxi back.

Central clubhouse for socialising with fellow aviators.

As for aircraft servicing, some have mechanics come out to do basic stuff like oil changes,brake pads, tyre replacement ect. if anything more that requires a workshop visit, then you are never more than a few miles from one, you can fly over get someone to drive you back or in many cases one of your fellow airpark residents will fly over to the airport in their plane and bring you back.

[werewolf]

in France :
Infos pratiques | ASL Vendée Air Park (http://vendeeairpark.fr/?page_id=10)
Village Aéronautique des Lacs de Biscarrosse (http://valbisca.fr/)
Air Park prés du Touquet Paris Plage | 1er Airpark ou village aeronautique comprenant tous les services et complexe aquatique prés du Touquet (http://www.aero-delahaye.com/blog/)
Green Airpark - Aeronautique village - A special place (http://www.greenairpark.eu/index.php?lang=gb)
Bienvenue (http://www.homecountryairpark.com/)
Dinair village aronautique (http://www.dinair-village.com/presentation.asp)

[wsmempson]

Good luck with the project Oliver.

Without wishing to appear 'picky', I did just have a peruse of your website, and have come away with a few concerns. Firstly, half of the pages on it seem to be U/S.

Secondly, whilst your biography page seems very impressive (far more impressive than mine) there seem to be a few inconsistencies with the dates which look like typo's;

For example-

Born:
13 August 1985; British national.

Professional:
- Admitted as a barrister, Middle Temple, 1973

As I say, good luck with the project.

[alland2012]

@tangovictor.
You are half right and half wrong Sir in regard retiring to the USA.
yes on a normal visa waiver permit (ESTA) it is a maximum of 90 days per visit.
But you can apply for a residents visa which is renewable annually, you don't have to be a multimillionaire to be accepted, but you do need to prove you have sufficient funds to live unassisted in the US without the need to seek employment. And decent medical cover is a must, because if you need any serious medical work and can't pay they will take your house, car and shirt off your back....

We have a home in Florida, and we visit 4 times a year for stays of 5/6 weeks each trip, although not fully retired yet, it is our intention that once I have called it a day we will retire there. I have already met with an immigration lawyer to work out the details to make sure when the time comes we comply with the resident visa requirements.

[OliverWallace]

Yes, apologies on the website, it's just a stop-gap site at the moment.

I'm just very impatient and want to get this going asap!

A fully personal website is currently in progress and will be launched within the next few days.

[BabyBear]

What are the apologies for, Oliver? Using someone elses copyrighted website and their CV?

BB

[cockney steve]

I'm sorry, but a UK Airpark is doomed to failure.

Planning - Anywhere there's a big-enough chunk of land, that's cheap -enough to make both airfield AND house-costs stack-up, is
1 - going to be where insufficient numbers of Aviators are prepared to live
2 -going to be vetoed by a Local Authority who, on any non-greenbelt site, will be looking to maximise the rate-revenue and minimise the liabilities.

what makes you think they'd be happy with low-density, lots of Tarmac and streetlights,drainage, noise-complaints /monitoring. pressure on upgrade to local fire-service.....etc.

Alternatively, once a site is earmarked for development, cram as many breeding-boxes in to it, at as high a rate-revenue per unit as they can get ,plus invariably get the developer to cough a goodly chunk or all the cost of roads, sewers etc. which the Authority only adopt when the cash-stream is flowing.


Sorry, the pilot-count in UK is too low, the land-value too high...and most Microlight and LAA types would not afford or be willing to live in the back of beyond where the figures just MIGHT stack.

* Dons flame-resistant overalls and ducks *

[homonculus]

Cockney Steve

I fear you are right, but maybe, just maybe.......

The second home market has been a real success - these are homes that have to be vacated for one month a year so people have other houses. They are based mostly on lakes. I think a lot of more affluent aviators (sorry guys but this is going to cost!!!) living especially in London and other cities might well go with a second home concept where they can fly from their front door. Noise is not the main issue, nor going by the current market is cost. Given the number of abandoned airfields all you have to sort is capital and nimbyism

[Jude098]

In Europe there are several residential Airparks Europe..mostly in France but also in Sweden, Germany, Portugal, Eastern Europe and one being developed in Turkey...The Spanish one in Murcia has a huge hard runway but only 2 houses and one of those is now derelict.
Helicopter instructor & Ryanair pilot Tony Corr developed an Airpark on the French side of the Pyrenees at Mingot near Rabastens and he was partially responsible for my interest in researching about airparks.

My recent MSc dissertation "European Residential Airparks in the context of local sustainable rural development" looked at the environmental, social and economic impacts that an Airpark could/would/does have on neighbouring local communities.

Research findings concluded there were/are social and both short and long term economic benefits and even some beneficial environmental impacts from GA, for communities that have a residential airpark in their vicinity.

I met some fantastic people living on some of these European Airparks, and who I am lucky to now call friends. I also got to fly in some super planes and spend an hour doing T&G's on Lake Biscarrosse in an amphibian Piper Cub.

There have so far been 3 UK airpark planning applications that have already failed. But my findings were helpful to Gravity Park (Belgium's 1st Airpark)in gaining planning permission. So who knows may help to establish one here too.

I am also a PPL(A) and currently fly a C150 out of Gloucestershire Airport (EGBJ).

[cockney steve]

@ Homonculus They are based mostly on lakes.

So, apart from reservoirs, we have "The Lake District" Nimbyism and the planning difficulties aside, It's a bit of a bloody drag to get there......unless you live in the affluent S.E. England and have your own private airstrip :}

The difficulty with this country is primarily one of population -density ,which leads to high land values...even pure agricultural land is ridiculously expensive...but as soon as any sort of planning approval is granted, it goes stratospheric.
First you need a co-operative Local Authority*
Then you need the land that nobody else wants ( why's that????)
Then you need enough Aviators with enough cash with enough commitment to want a second (or primary) residence in this god-forsaken spot, purely because it's got a runway outside the door.

I know we English are a *bit* eccentric, but you're really stretching things here.

IF I won the lottery, I'd consider it. As it is, i'd need a stunning bargain to make a small house and a Microlight/Laa type as a viable option.....and i no longer have to work!

* Is there any Local Authority in the UK that's not so cash-strapped that it's not going to wring wvery last penny of rates-revenue from a development-site? (consider how many breeding-boxes will fit on your proposed airstrip, multiply by,say, £1200 potential rates....do the same with all the other undeveloped land on your Airpark,......now divide that into the houses you actually build (and they'll pay their own rates as well.

Cheaper to buy a small ,existing airfield as a cooperative and then buy a house for each member from the local NIMBY populace.

I'm quite surprised nobody's done this before......My sister had a bungalow one street back from White Waltham, where her partner had spent time on Military service, (100 yard stroll and jump the fence!:) )

[OliverWallace]

Wsmempson, You are absolutely correct, I was just too eager to get out into the forums and see what people want that the website even though updated on the server wasn’t published and still had the temporary website in place, for that I can only apologise.

BabyBear, The apologies are for not being professional enough to wait until the website update was done. Like most of the people on here, when it comes to aviation I have maybe a little too much enthusiasm!

Cockney Steve, you may well be right, but you can never know for sure which is why I will continue unwaivering!

The issue regarding land isn’t really in the creation of an airpark on derelict land, there are so many airfields both military and private that have been up for sale recently and we are losing them to other industries. That is where an Airpark is ideal as the change in status of the land is minimal in terms of planning permission.

I think with the right location (and hence council) it can work.

Haha, I have seen the photos of Bernard Matthews breeding-boxes along derelict runways and it really makes me angry (and maybe a little hungry) that we (as in Aviators) are losing our airfields to these businesses, we need to fight harder to keep them.

Regarding the pilot count, we have a lot of people from other countries that want to live in the UK, not many pilots proportionally though… with an Airpark I would envisage demand not only from UK based pilots but also from overseas. The UK is so ahead of other countries in so many areas apart from GA and it’s time for a change.

homonculus , you are so correct about the number of abandoned airfields, I have noted all of these and will begin to approach local councils once I have the funds to apply for initial planning consent at each of these! Yes, investing my own money in UK GA… crazy, but someone has to do it!

I want to be able to say how great GA in the UK is compared to other countries and with the innovation and connectivity that we have here, the Airparks could be the best in the world!

[soaringhigh650]

Oliver. You are an immature boy who's too busy dreaming and not paying enough attention to detail.

This is the UK where over 95% of the general aviation community is old and grumpy. And nobody here has a can-do attitude.

Go elsewhere to pursue your dream.

[Sam Rutherford]

Blimey - that's a bit negative!

Good luck with it - better to have tried and failed than to have never tried at all...

Been to Siljan air park last year, and back there again next week.

Also have a friend with a place on 'Atlantic Air Park" - which is particularly well planned in that the houses are set some way away from the strip.

Still, if I wanted to park my plane at my house (and I do, but can't) - I would just buy a house and the field (+/- 500m long, grassy and flat) next to it...

Cheers, Sam.

[maxred]

Oliver good luck with your dream. I hope it works out.

FWIW

Fantasy, is always better than reality, and without dreams and fantasy we would be much poorer.

Fact, the UK weather is very poor and can severely limit the amount of flying one can do.

Fact, UK planning laws, coupled with the general attitude to anything entrepreneurial in the UK, is filled with doom.

Fact, if I wanted an Air Park home, it would be where the weather is CAVOK, 365 days of the year - ARIZONA/some parts of SOCAL.

Fact, NIMBYS can ruin your day, and there are a lot of them in the UK, backed by fried and envious Councillors.

Fact, I do not think the wealth, in numbers, exist in the UK, to make a viable commercial venture. Who would fund this BTW? Those with wealth, fly off to Cannes, and join up with the boat.

Aeroplane's are for going places. Why would it make any sense, to fork out 750K, on an Air Park home in the UK, when all we want is some sun and heat, which we can travel to in our aeroplane's?

I am with Sam, and I have looked, and at one stage nearly found it. Country house with field, for my own private strip. I dream on however.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

it annoys me that Woodford (EGCD) hasn't been grabbed as an "air park". There are enough affluent aviators already in Prestbury, Bramhall and other like places to make it an interesting possibility. The standard "to close to Manch argument is bollox. We coped with gliding up to 1,000 ft Woodford AGL without dramas and AVRO test flights.

I think the key word is not "can't" but "won't".

[WAC]

We have a few starting to pop up down under and we have the weather to go with it...that and a couple I've seen so far are in gorgeous coastal spots that are already holiday spots....maybe aim to retire a BIT further south?

[cockney steve]

@GBZ....First consider how many of those affluent flyers would want to flog their prestige mansion and move
Then, how many would risk buying a place that has very limited appeal
I make the sweeping assumption that Ringway's "spotter's Corner" isn't full of Rolls- Roycas, Ferraris and the like.

Then , as previously mentioned, the potential Rates-income of the whole site.

Find enough Aviators prepared to pay ,maybe £30,000 a year rates, for the comvenience of the facility, you may get the local council onside.

It's "back of a fag-packet maths" doesn't work in UK...too many people,too few sites that are not more financially viable as Airpark than housing or industry.

As I said, the way forward is to get a consortium to buy an existing airfield and the surrounding NIMBY 's properties.
Now THAT would be a winner for UK GA.:) dream on!

[peterh337]

The aforementioned dissertation can be found here (http://www.euroga.org/articles).

My view is that the problem with airparks is that most people with the money actually want to live somewhere nice, not next to a busy runway. So the location does matter, and UK's planning regs don't make it easy.

I think most US airparks are exclusive communities, where you can't just turn up. There was one near where I did my FAA IR in Arizona, called Stellar Airpark, and it was absolutely prohibited to go anywhere near it, without an invitation.

[peterFR]

There is an airfield, with a planning permission for a build, and with a ready built airpark adjoining, for sale in SW France...

[xrayalpha]

well....

put a link to it!

[Bob Upanddown]

I think most US airparks are exclusive communities, where you can't just turn up. There was one near where I did my FAA IR in Arizona, called Stellar Airpark, and it was absolutely prohibited to go anywhere near it, without an invitation.

Gated communities are also far more common there than here and the same would apply to those. Turn up without an invite and you won't get in.

To be fair, the whole social thing is different in the US. The UK has a block of retirement apartments, the US has whole towns of retirement condos. OK, maybe an exaggeration but maybe you follow my thinking.