I wanna buy an aerobatic airplane

[andrepilota]

Hi guys,

my thread is very simple:

I`ve been looking around the web to find an aerobatic airplane to purchase,together with some friends to share the costs;

I`m starting from scratch tho,and have no clue about costs,maintenance,regulations etc.

Can anyone gime some hint,ideas,help and so on?

On the market (especially UK)I`ve found lots of pitts,I`m interested only in the two seater (be it the S2 version) and I`ve seen a few cheap ones (starting from 30k euros).

One other is the italian made pioneer 300 or 330 acro,but it`s an unltralight.

Can anyone tell me why the pitts are so "cheap" (most I`ve seen have been built around 1985 + o - ),and what would be the difference in flying aerobatics on a pitts (i.e. conventional airplane) or on a pioneer 330 (which is ultralight) ?

Does the airframe have any "expiry"?how about the engine overhaul?maintenance and taxes?

Hope anyone can help,even via pm,I`m just looking around now,but i`d really love to buy one in the near future

ps:I`m not interested in talking about airport taxes,hangarage and so on,yet (it`s things i can find out myself....) .

thanks to all.

G.

[Foxthreekill]

As a former Pitts and warbird owner hopefully i can help a bit........ The price for a Pitts varies hugely depending on condition, who built it, who maintained it, whether it has 4 ailerons or 2 and the engine type and condition. I suggest you talk to an expert because there are some big pitfalls. I know you want to avoid talking about hangarage, insurance etc, but its worth a some serious research, the difference between the cheapest and most expensive can be 200%+. if you are military or ex-military there maybe some hangarage bargains to be had. Insurance is fairly standard with some good companies advertising in Pilot or Flight magazines. i know zilch about ultralights, but the Pitts was a pleasant challenge to fly: fast approach but stunning brakes! one last point, and its only a personal view, avoid Russian stuff unless it is the top-end models such as the Su29 and above.

[Pitts2112]

what would be the difference in flying aerobatics on a pitts (i.e. conventional airplane) or on a pioneer 330 (which is ultralight) ?

Seriously, if you can ask that question, you're not ready to buy your own aerobatic aircraft yet because you don't know enough about them. You may end up buying something that's not suited to what you want to, or can, do.

What aerobatic flying have you done so far? In what types? Get yourself a couple of hours in things like a Decathalon, a Pitts, and the Pioneer (is that TRULY aerobatic?) to get a feel for what aerobatics in different kinds of airplanes is like. They'll all be so different that a discussion of them here will be fairly meaningless, I would have thought.

But be careful of one thing. As Budd Davison says "A Pitts will spoil you for other airplanes for life." And he's not kidding! Once you strap one on, anything else will seem tame and pointless! Oh, and by the way; a Pitts is NOT a "conventional" airplane! :)

Do some more research by flying more types. That's about the best research you can do. And it's the most fun, too!

Good luck with whatever you decide!

[BackPacker]

I echo what Pitts2112 is saying. If you've never flown different aerobatics planes, don't buy one based on the advice here.

The other thing you might want to consider is whether you want a pure aerobatics plane, or want some or a lot of touring capabilities in it as well.

Me, I fly the clubs Robin 2160. Mostly because nothing else is available to do aerobatics. It doesn't have a constant speed prop, doesn't have an inverted flight system but is fine for basic aerobatics competitions, and can even, if flown competently, compete in the standard class. Higher than that, forget it. But at the same time it's also a very decent tourer and a very benign aircraft for low-time pilots: side by side seating, nosewheel, GPS, VOR and a four-hour endurance.

I have never flown one, but I heard the Decathlon has more or less the same qualities.

Going up the scale is probably the CAP-10. Still a decent tourer but it does have an inverted flight system and I think a constant speed prop as well (not sure though). And it's a taildragger of course.

Higher up the scale you get aircraft that are excellent at aerobatics, like the Pitts, Extras, CAP-21, Yak and so forth. But as single-purpose aerobatics planes, they are less suitable for other purposes, because they have very limited range/endurance, are solo only or have virtually no baggage space.

Oh, and if you get one of those specialized aerobatics planes, you'd better make sure your friends are into heavy aerobatics too, otherwise they won't get much use out of such a plane.

My advice: rent for at least a year or so until you have sorted out what type of flying you like to do most. Serious touring (possibly IFR/IMC/Night), bimbling about/200 euro lunches, aerobatics, formation flying? Then start hiring different types of planes that suit that style of flying so you know what's available. And only then start thinking about the exact type of plane you want to buy, and with whom.

Right now, in automotive terms, you're asking us to choose between a VW Lupo (the Pioneer) or a Harley Davidson (the Pitts), and are hinting at other options as well. They each have their good and bad points. How should we choose between them without knowing about your experience, budget and aspirations?

[BeechNut]

Agree with the "something tame" approach to start off with. I have one of the rare aerobatic Beech Sundowners. It's a decent tourer; 4 seats, good useful load, nearly 6 hours endurance, 180 hp so it climbs OK. Not overly fast: 105 knots and you're having a good day.

It's cleared for barrel, aileron and snap rolls, loops, Immelmans, Split S, spins. Lots of fun for the average punter. Six g's positive, 3 negative, no inverted oil/fuel, weight/CG limitation for aerobatics.

I would be surprised if there are any in Europe but there were aerobatic Musketeers and B19 Sports, and you might find one or two of those around. They are built like the proverbial brick sh!thouse, but the old 165 hp Continental engine might be problematic (parts availability); the Lycoming engine examples are a better bet.

[andrepilota]

thanks gents,

i appreciate your replies,but can anybody give me some figures about money?

at the mo i`ve only done some basic aerobatics on a SF260,just 6 hours,but I have a few wealthy colleagues (i work as ATCO) that would be potential partners in purchasing an aerobatic plane,and I say again,I just would like to have an idea,to see whether it s a thing doable or not.

Of course I haven`t taken into account the performances,I just want to make up my mind on prices for the mo.

what would be the difference in flying aerobatics on a pitts (i.e. conventional airplane) or on a pioneer 330 (which is ultralight) ? Seriously, if you can ask that question, you're not ready to buy your own aerobatic aircraft yet because you don't know enough about them. You may end up buying something that's not suited to what you want to, or can, do.


pitts2112,i didn`t mean the difference in PERFORMANCES,i only meant about prices,costs of maintenance,rules,regulations,insurance(as the pioneer is an ultralight whereas the pitts is not).that`s it.

Foxthreekill,could you give me a rough idea of the costs involved in the ownership of such a plane (pitts in this case)?

how much do you pay for insurance per year?how about maintenance?what are the compulsory checks and inspections (overhauls of the engine)?how often do they have to be done and how much they cost?

As far as i know having an ultralight makes it a lot easier (and cheaper as well),but since I`ve never owned a plane I really have no idea on what the prices could be.

I really also appreciate pm if u guys want to be more specific on names or useul tips.

blue skies.

G.

[Mariner9]

Andrepolita, I own a Pioneer 300, and whilst I think its a fabulous aircraft and I know for a fact its capable of aerobatics ;), it is not cleared to do so in the UK :mad: I suspect (but confess I don't actually know) it will be the same in Holland.

Having said that, its not in the same aerobatic league as say a Pitts. On the other hand, its also a very comfortable and fast tourer - you couldn't say that about a Pitts!

If you're still interested in the Pioneer nonetheless, you can expect purchase cost of ~£50-60K, insurance of about £1500pa, Permit renewal ~£500pa, and maintenance costs of ~£200 pa (if you do it yourself, and assuming ~100 hours flown), ~£20/hour fuel cost. The other cost will be monthly hangarage and landing fees - no idea of rates in Holland!

[Justiciar]

The Pioneer is not approved for aerobatics, at least not in the UK.

You need to do some flying in various aerobatic machines and then look at your budget and what you actually want to achieve. Prices can vary from £20k to £150k!

[andrepilota]

thanks folks,

I didn`t know about the non aerobatics possibility of the pioneer 300.
As a matter of fact I saw the latest video of their aerobatic team made up of 3 300 and one 330 acro...

As I said in my previous post I just want to have an idea of what the costs would be,roughly,and since I`m not that expert on rules and regulations (above all regarding maintenance and overhauls) I would like someone to give me some clarifications.

I`ve been looking around the web for second hand airplanes,and I was surprised by finding pitts s2 for sale for prices starting around 30k euros,that`s one reason why I mentioned the pitts (for example,the extra300 is well above the roof of my possible budget.)

I just looked into prices,haven`t really got a preference (like saying I want a pure aerobatic or something in between a tourer and a semi aerobatic).

Any other info is highly appreciated.

G.

[Justiciar]

I know of a very nice Pioneer for sale :)

[TheOddOne]

I've just watched the video of the Pioneer330 and it was just a series of recoveries from unusual attitudes with smoke, not aerobatics as we would define them. However, the blurb says +6-3 which should be good enough for Standard, at least, probably Intermediate.

Most aerobatic a/c have fixed undercarriage, not sure if the additional mass and complexity of retracts is worth it for aeros. The only retract a/c on the UK aerobatic compeition scene is the Yak 52.

PS those folk clustered around the prop at the end made me wince, somebody should have moved them!

TheOddOne

[javelin]

Citabria or Decathlon

Good compromise as it will tour, operate from grass quite comfortably, give a good introduction to aerobatics and will sell again once you decide to move on and up :ok: