flying into major airports...

[Kiev23]

Hi,
just wondering if it is possible to fly light aircraft into major airports like heathrow and manchester ect... and do the ATC take kindly to it as they have many jets coming in per day.

[FlyingForFun]

Heathrow, no. No singles or light twins allowed, although they occassionally make exceptions e.g. for medical flights.

Manchester, yes, I've been in there in a C172, cost me (well, my student) about £50 about two years ago. Speak to Manchester School of Flying, who handle light aircraft. Make sure you find out what times they charge off-peak rates, because it costs a lot more if you go during peak periods. Get a good briefing on the routes in and out of controlled airspace, because you will be expected to follow them (although ATC will vary them if you ask them, if traffic permits). Be prepared to either come in tight behind an airliner but well above his approach path to keep clear of his wake vortex, or else keep the recommended distance for wake vortex but fly finals at 120kt and float down the runway. If you try to keep the recommended distance at your normal approach speed ATC will break you off when the next airliner starts catching you up.

I've only been to Manchester once, so others who have done it more regularly will, I'm sure, be able to add more advice.

Alternatively, go to the States where it is normal for light aircraft to visit busy international airports!

FFF
--------------

[TheGorrilla]

Better have a huge wallet ready on arrival. Lots of big airports insist on a handling agent. Even the most basic service can be pricey.

[IO540]

The hangup over flying to big airports seems to a peculiarly British PPL thing. There are airports in Europe which are bigger in size than say Gatwick but accept GA routinely.

Here, the instructors tell students to not even dream of it and in some cases to not even call up the airport's ATC (I was warned in most severe terms of the consequences of ever calling up Gatwick). The pricing has also been set to keep out GA.

But in principle you need to

- check and sort out PPR
- get the approach plates (VFR or IFR)
- check notams
- phone somebody there re avgas & prices
- file a flight plan

and then most cannot refuse your flight. Heathrow & London City are two I can think off with a total SE GA ban - I wonder how this can be legal under ICAO for a public airport. Are there any others in the UK?

The hardest thing is not getting lost while taxiing around the place :)

[Julian]

FFF,

Its even worse now! I was going to pick a mate up who was undertaking his PPL with MSF and even with their school discount he was quoted about £80 for a PA28 - went to Blackpool instead!.

J.

[fireflybob]

Not long after I got my PPL I took a PA28 - 140 into Heathrow with a friend who had also recently qualified. This was around 1968 I recall. The landing fee was 18 shillings (thats 90 pence!). After we parked on the south side we were asked our reason for coming to Heathrow by an airport agent. When we told him we had just come for the hell of it he said "Well in that case we wont bother to charge you for the landing".

It was great fun approaching on 28 Left to be overtaken by a BEA Trident on 28R - how things have changed!

On another occasion in the early 1970s I took another PA28 - 140 into Heathrow. My colleague was in the business of exporting toffee apples (yes really) and wanted to talk to BEA reference air freighting said apples overseas. We were parked on a stand at BEA cargo and they paid all the fees!

[bookworm]

The hangup over flying to big airports seems to a peculiarly British PPL thing. There are airports in Europe which are bigger in size than say Gatwick but accept GA routinely.

Indeed. Zuerich and Schiphol are two examples that spring to mind. Zuerich is particularly good value -- Amsterdam is expensive but seems to accommodate GA quite well.

[imperialsam]

Kiev23,

There was a great thread on taking a PA28 into Gatwick a few months back. Makes interesting reading.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=298339

[BackPacker]

Amsterdam is expensive but seems to accommodate GA quite well.

True. GA has its own platform with handling and everything on the opposite side of the field. But this is only by virtue of still having runway 04/22 available, which is too short for the average commercial jet (although 737s and smaller do land there in high wind conditions) and a VFR approach/departure route + circuit procedures which do not interfere with any operation on any of the other five runways. You have to be prepared to fly a "threshold base" or even "midrunway base" though. And the frequency you're on will most likely also be used for operations on two other runways + crossing traffic so your R/T better be up to speed.

Last time I checked, taking a light single into Schiphol would be about 200 euros in landing plus handling fees.

[englishal]

I read a thing somewhere in Norway saying that is best to avoid Oslo as the landing fee is about 300 NOKs (about £30) :}

[PlasticPilot]

I learned to fly in Geneva, which is not so VFR / GA friendly that it used to be, but the grass runway is still active.

Zurich is more busy, and PPR is mandatory, but it's possible both IFR and VFR. Generally speaking, (relatively) high-performance single is better for integration.

Few years ago, I planned a flight out of Geneva to the London area, and envisaged Gatwick... PPR mandatory, but IFR is piece of cake. The problem comes with the landing fee.... 250£ off-peak for a PA32 Saratoga. Unfortunately, I had to land in peak-hours because of this day's schedule, and this would cost 650£ !!

The final decision was to go in Biggin-Hill, and this went fine. The experience of working with "Thames Radar" was very interesting. Busy frequency, but the controller took care of us with a slightly slower rate of speech (I'm not native english).

If you want the full story, you can read it here: http://www.plasticpilot.net/blog/2007/09/01/geneva-biggin-hill/

[apruneuk]

Kev

I think there are about 5 light aircraft flying clubs based at Heathrow - join overhead at 2000' and fly a nice tight circuit (left hand on 27L). Don't worry about the big passenger jets arriving and departing every minute - I believe the ANO says that they have to give way to PA28s. Oh, and I'll have a pint of whatever you've been drinking!

AP

[TheOddOne]

There are airports in Europe which are bigger in size than say Gatwick but accept GA routinely.


IO540,

Gatwick is the BIGGEST single-runway airport in the WORLD, bar none. When I first went to work there, seems like only last week, we routinely accepted light aircraft and even special events, like a Spitfire with a competition winner on board and Roy Castle doing a record-breaking flight atop a Stearman London-Paris. Sadly, as it got busier, tubes containing hundreds of people took priority over little aeroplanes with one or two people on board. As already seen above, you CAN fly VFR into LGW and you WILL be well looked after, just be prepared to pay for the considerable privilege. Amsterdam has five times as many runways as Gatwick, for little more traffic, no wonder they can make room for a little 'un! London's major airports are victoms of their own success. LCY has always had restrictions of a/c types and just as important properly trained crew requirements from the day it opened, written into its terms & conditions, nothing illegal there!

I guess it's like forbidden fruit, folk just want what they can't have!

If people want big-airport experience at affordable prices and a very warm welcome, then you can do worse than Southend. Just don't succumb to the McDonald's just outside the gate!

Cheers,
TheOddOne

[eharding]

I think there are about 5 light aircraft flying clubs based at Heathrow -


Don't forget the Hatton Cross Gliding Club. They tend to use the grass though.

[FougaMagister]

I found East Midlands quite cooperative when I flew in last year. They even cleared us through Class D airspace from Shepshed Lane based on primary radar returns (transponder was not playing ball). I recall the landing fee was 20 Pounds or so - not bad for a major airport.

As has been said, the Continent is much more welcoming to GA in this respect - although light a/c are not accepted at CDG, and the landing/handling fees at Paris-Orly or Nice would make your eyes water! Paris-Beauvais is fine though, as are Lille-Lesquin, Strasbourg-Entzheim, Montpellier-Mediterranee and most other regional airports in France. Another good thing is that PPR is unheard of. :ok:

[inbalance]

I have been to heathrow in a BE200 about 4 or 5 years ago.
For the Landing, handling and a peak hour charge I had to pay 1700 pounds.
In words: onethousandsevenhundred.

We knew that it would be expensive and warned the passenger about it, but he didn´t care because he had an apointment in the Hilton at heathrow.
Handling was perfect, they drove him to the Hilton and brought him back straight to the aircraft. Saved him a lot of time and he told us it was worth it.

I wouldn´t even think about going there on a private flight.



Inbalance

[PlasticPilot]

I flew once in the Heathrow CTR, operating from and to White Waltham (EGLM). They have three grass runways and their traffic area is partly "included" in the Heathrow zone. Be sure to know where you are and where you go.

Egelsbach (EDFE) is also interesting, as this VFR airport has its special sector within the Frankfurt CTR. No personal experience there.

[mm_flynn]

IO540,

Gatwick is the BIGGEST single-runway airport in the WORLD, bar none. 26L?? I wonder why they put the L label on it if there is only one??;)

Newark's other runway is only 50m farther away than Gatwick's and they put 170% of the traffic through. To be fair their runways are longer (the shorter being only 100 m shorter than 26L and they have a cross wind runway they are allowed to use as well - and you wouldn't choose to go in there either in a light GA aircraft.

Yes I know 26R is too short for normal people mover use and that given the rules Gatwick operates under it probably does move more metal off a single runway than anyone else.

[Roffa]

mm, as I'm sure you well know thus not sure of your point, Gatwick can only operate either the main or the northern runway at any one time.

They cannot be operated together, ergo it's a single runway airport.

When the northern runway is in use all traffic will use it, up to and including the usual heavies that operate out of the airport.

[silverelise]

Newark's other runway is only 50m farther away than Gatwick's
Geography was never my strong point but I'm sure the runways are further apart than that.

[mm_flynn]

The general point was - in many other countries the rules make it easier to fit GA traffic in than the UK rules. Using Newark as an example, with runway C/L spacing of 250m vs 200m (both scaled from a chart), they can use both at the same time as compared to EGKK that (as I understand it) can only use one.

Silverelise - the two airports are only a hair's breadth away from each other what with EGKK crawling with LoCos and KEWR crawling with Continental - you can't eat the food on either one ;)

[Mouton Rothschild]

With major airports like Heathrow, it's often a question of traffic flow. Jet traffic in the approach sequence is usually told to maintain 160kts to four miles out. This enables the controllers to maximise the number of arriving aircraft, after this four miles point they would normally reduce to their final approach speed. Imagine the congestion it would cause if I went there in my C152 with an approach speed of around 65kts.
We're talking a lot of money here with landing fees and Navigation Service Charges which would be lost if slower aircraft were permitted. Some years ago I did ambulance flights into Heathrow in a Seneca, I was told to maintain best speed until I had to reduce speed to configure for landing. I was definitely an inconvenience to the traffic flow. It's also worth bearing in mind that at LHR only one runway at a time is in use for landing, unlike many other large airports outside the UK, where it's easier to accommodate lighter VFR traffic. Having said all that, if you want to transit their airspace they are usually very accommodating.

[betterfromabove]

Fouga.... afraid PPR does also exist in France. Just try flying into Strasbourg, Rouen or particularly Cannes VFR without having called ahead...all very welcoming when you get there though & no BAA-style landing fees waiting for you :bored:

Nice is a major exception. Orly is Class A, so no VFR there. One of my club's Robins diverted in there after going IMC out of Toussus & we had to find a IR-rated instructor just to get the thing out of there & 5 mins home in CAVOK:ugh:

A couple of other places where I've flown out of VFR in a Cessna .....Cape Town Intl ("cleared to line up after the landing 747....caution vortex wake") & Salt Lake City.... so yes, there are still some great places where you can mix it up with the big boys!!

If you just want busy, try Shoreham on a Saturday :}

BFA

[FougaMagister]

I stand corrected regarding Strasbourg-Entzheim; I did land a PA28-140 there a few years ago without PPR, but I was actually on a VFR flight plan and diverting into STG... long story! ATC only requested that I do a short base and keep the speed up because of an inbound AF 737! I used Lille-Lesquin on the same (ferry) flight and they were fine. Only problem on a saturday was getting someone to refuel with AVGAS! As for Orly, the fact that they only accept IFR (class A) doesn't mean they won't accept GA traffic ;) Then again, if diverting IMC from Toussus-le-Noble I'd rather use Pontoise... As for Beauvais, they couldn't be bothered to send me a bill for the landing fee after I did a T/Go there!

Although I've never flown GA aircraft there, Hamburg and Berlin-Tempelhof seem OK considering the number of based SEPs!

In the UK, I recall Blackpool was quite welcoming, and is getting more commercial traffic with Jet2 and Ryanair.

Cheers :cool: