Canada increasing Immigration numbers.

[Cyclic Hotline]

Canada Boosts Immigration Target for Next Two Years

OTTAWA (Reuters) - Canada, one of the few countries in the world still accepting large number of immigrants, said on Thursday it would increase the number of people it wanted to attract over the next two years.

Immigration Minister Elinor Caplan said Canada would lift the upper target range of immigrants to 235,000 a year in 2002, from the present 225,000 a year.

"A successful immigration program like ours is not just about numbers on a page, but rather about hard-working people and their families who come here from the world over to help build our economy, our society and our culture," she said in a statement.

Caplan said Ottawa remained committed to increasing immigration levels to approximately one percent of the population over the long term, but that Canada's capability to absorb and integrate increased numbers would dictate the pace. Canada has a population of around 30 million people.

Caplan also said that for the first time since 1997, Canada had exceeded its target in 2000. Last year the nation landed 226,837 immigrants and refugees, just over the target range of 200,000 to 225,000.

The top 10 countries sending immigrants to Canada in 2000 were:


China 36,664


India 26,004


Pakistan 14,163


Philippines 10,063


South Korea 7,602


Sri Lanka 5,832


United States 5,806


Iran 5,598


Yugoslavia 4,699


Britain 4,644

[gearup-lightup]

thats very good news,I hope to be one of them! anybody got any advice for a 3000 hr brit? i.e. lic conversion, job opp's etc fancy yyz.useful www's I think that the grass could be GREENER.....

[Squawk 8888]

Gearup, YYZ is a wonderful town (been here all my life) but expensive. Not as bad as Tokyo maybe but it is pricey here. Before accepting an offer make sure you can afford it- here's a few basic numbers on the salary you'll need to live comfortably, based on my own completely subjective standards, for a single person with no dependents:

$25,000/year- If you need new shoes or clothes you'll have to skip some meals to cover it.
$30,000- Living paycheque to paycheque.
$35,000- Higher tax bracket means starving for clothes again.
$40,000- Paycheque to paycheque again. Congratulations!
$45,000- Paycheque to paycheque with a night out on those months that have an extra payday.
$50,000- One night out per week.
$55,000- One night out per week with a few lap dances during months that have an extra payday.
$60,000- If you scrimp and save you'll be able to come up with a downpayment on a one-room condo in five years. Social activists will stage demonstrations in front of your home, accusing you of being a Filthy Rich Friend of Mike Harris Who Voted for Tax Cuts that Are Starving Poor Children and Causing the Decline of Civilisation As We Know It.

[Tintin]

Squawk 8888
Very good picture of the Canadian market been there done that.....

And Chretien still say there no such thing as brain exodus....

And when I'm missing the Rockies and the distinct society I take a 3 week off, at least I can afford'it now...

Salut and I wish you a good ski season

[gearup-lightup]

SQUAK 8888, thanks for the prompt reply,very interesting,fancy c3 at 55k, will send you an e mail,be over in YYZ within the next couple of weeks,like to buy you a beer, if you've got some spare time.

[skidcanuck]

Squawk 8888, as a fellow Torontonian, I laughed with your T.O. cost of living indices - very well put.

Don't forget to tell our British friend that traffic runs smoothly between 0100-0500; other times, expect to triple/quadruple travel times. Also, be advised the Leafs never win the Stanley Cup!

Cheers

[Dockjock]

8888 that is the kind of hilarious comic relief we need! Very funny. Of course I can only vouch for the fact that the 25,000 level is pretty accurate...

Don't forget your dented cans of tuna! :)

[JoeCo]

Toronto is as great city, as is Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary.....are there any other cities here worth mentioning????? Regarless, Toronto is TO BIG!! Drove into town the other day and an hour and a half outside of city limit it was almost bumper to bumper traffic!! Lets not talk about downtown at lunch or quitting time!! Really enjoy visiting but would hate to have to do the morning commute!!!

[This message has been edited by JoeCo (edited 10 February 2001).]

[Randy_g]

hehe You're pretty close with those figures Squawk. :) Gimme YYC any day, where the beer is cold, the skiing is great, the taxes are low (taxes dropped again this year in Alberta !!!), and the socialists all live one province over !!! :) Toronto, is a great place to visit, but I sure wouldn't want to live there. (I had to live there when I was a kid. Sure glad we moved out west !!)

Cheers

Randy_G

If you can't stand the heat ...

Then turn up the airconditioning !! :)

[This message has been edited by Randy_g (edited 10 February 2001).]

[Squawk 8888]

JoeCo, the trick is to commute in the other direction. My home is closer to downtown than my office, soduring rush hour there's lots of empty buses going my way. Since YYZ is in the 'burbs the smart drivers will get a place to live in the city.

Randy, things are still looking up. Although the usual suspects who make all the noise would have you believe otherwise, Mikey is the most popular preem in more than half a century and increased his vote share the second time around. With the economy slowing down he's talking about even more tax cuts- quite a refreshing change :)

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Nuke the rainforest- it's more efficient than logging.

[gearup-lightup]

how much folding stuff do you require to buy a three bed det house in say missisauga[i know that my spelling is prob rong] any tips for a good place to live with two little sceamers? would about 250-300k be enough?
thanks guys for all the gen.

[Squawk 8888]

That's more than enough, MOF that kind of money can get a decent house right in the city. In Mississauga the townhouses (freehold) start around $150k, semis can be had for $200 & up, $250k will get a decent fully-detached. $300k in the 'burbs will get you a small mansion :)

I must remember when complaing about the cost of living here that we're still better off than most of the world. That's not easy when the yanks next door have it even better.

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Nuke the rainforest- it's more efficient than logging.

[Azure]

Randy_g:

Glad your so proud to live here in Alberta, but remember......get out and vote.....or we'll have Nancy Bitchkowski opps, (McBeth) running thing here. She changed her name, because it was too ethnic, now she's trying to hide the big "Liberal" association.

Alberta, being so strongly in the hands of the conservatives for soooo long, can make people lazy on voting day. So Please Don't Forget to Vote!

BTW: I do not work for any Party, just a Ralph supporter to the bone.

[gearup-lightup]

squawk
your right about the taxes in canada.i pay about 700can for my sodding house tax,2000can for my mortgage,7.70 for 1 gallon yes 1[one],340 per year to tax my neon and i live in a place with no serices worth mentioning.
in the u.k. they rip us off for everything and we get sod all back
in canada, you pay moderate tax and get plenty back, people die here because the treatment is too expensive,or the facilities are not avail'
the yanks do have it good, but what about your kids,metal scanners to get into school, and little johnny at the back of the class wiping out the front row with his big sisters mac10. all because he was not a bit pi***d off cos his mummy wouldn't buy him the big toy he saw during all the adverts.
not so bad in canada.

[Squawk 8888]

Gearup, crime in the US is not nearly as bad as the media would have you believe. The cores of the major cities there have serious problems but then there are a few neighbourhoods in Toronto that I would not enter alone at night and we've had more than our share of school shootings here, and about 5-6 times a month we get people firing shots in crowded nightclubs. I'm sure there's a few spots in London that aren't the safest either. As for health care, we've got a gov't monopoly here that's even tighter than in the UK- if you need medical treatment here, your options are wait two years hoping you don't die or pay big $ to get it done in the US, unless you happen to have friends in high places who can put you at the head of the queue (our federal health minister just got prostate surgery with no waiting while the average wait for us plebes is 6 months). I do agree though that we are much better off than most Europeans- in a couple of years I'll be able to carry a fairly large townhome for < $1300 (mortgage, taxes, etc) and I won't have to ransom my firstborn if I decide to get a car. Aircraft rentals are so cheap here that it's probably cost-effective for a brit to come over here to do the training- I don't know what instruction costs there, but the rental costs to get a PPL would be roughly $4,000 less in Canada than in the UK.

------------------
Nuke the rainforest- it's more efficient than logging.

[gearup-lightup]

squawk,nicely put,i don't think that canada is perfect, but, a lot better than u.k.
I work in holland and have a house there as well,rent out rooms to make it cost effective, the tax there has just been reduced to 50% so i'm glad i'm in the brit system.
whats the wx like? do you have much bother with the flies? regards

[Squawk 8888]

Weather here has been ghastly lately- not too cold by our standards :) but very yucky. Last week in a 36-hour period we got 25cm of snow, followed immediatly by an hour of freezing rain, then it went to +9C and rained for 8 hours before the temp dropped to -11 turning the city into a wonderful skating rink. The flies are never an issue in the city but once you get an hours' drive north of here they'll eat you alive in May & June.

------------------
Nuke the rainforest- it's more efficient than logging.

[gearup-lightup]

It's yyzee for me then.....

[pigboat]

Hah! You think you got flies? Down here the skeeters are big enough to stand flat footed and b***er a tom turkey!

[Lazlo]

Gearup,

As a Canadian living in Britain I have a slightly different perspective on things which you may find interesting. You are correct when you say that we are taxed on everything here in the UK but do not be so sure that it is any different in Canada. In fact, in some ways the tax system is worse in Canada. For example, the highest marginal tax rate in the UK is only 40% whereas in Canada it is in the region of 56%. This is a big difference and adds up to a lot of money. The only area in terms of taxation where Canada is better than the UK is with petrol taxes. The price of petrol (gas in Canada of course) is about half of what we pay in the UK. But the lower income taxes in the UK more than make up for this. There is no council tax in Canada but there is property tax instead, which is effectively the same thing and costs about the same. There are some communities where you actually have to pay to have your garbage removed, by purchasing some sort of tags which are traded for the removal of the bags. Inconvenient? Yes!

Most importantly, you need to know about the sad state of affairs in the aviation industry in Canada compared with Britain. There was a salary survey in Canada's "Wings" magazine back in November I think. Have a good look at what kind of salaries most pilots are on. Dismal reading. Shocking actually. I made more money in my second year as an FO here in Britain than an A320 captain for a Canadian Charter airline makes. I don't know if you have a job here in the UK but with 3000 hours I assume you do or at least you did and have some decent experience. You can expect to take a 50% pay cut for the equivalent job unless you are very lucky and get in with one of the (few) companies that pay somewhat reasonably.

Having said all that it should be very cheap to convert your licences, just sit some ATPL exams (there are only two I think) and do your instrument rating test, as well as a commercial test. Very inexpensive in relation to the CAA's system here in the UK. You will also find that Canadian airlines have ridiculously high entrance requirements and many seem to like guys to have lots of turboprop command time. Here in Britain it is entirely possible that you may have only jet time which in Canada doesn't seem to count for a lot on its own. There seems to be a mentality in the big airlines (oops sorry there is only one big airline now isn't there) where they like guys who have busted a gut in the north flying clapped out old airplanes for piss poor wages. A bit of "I had to do it so everyone else who joins this airline damn well better have to do it as well". Don't ask why. Just accept it. Everyone else does and always have.

I miss Canada. Wish I could live there. But as long as I am a pilot I can never go back. Quality of life in Canada is great, but not if you are a pilot. You will probably make more money as a taxi driver. I'm not joking.



[This message has been edited by Lazlo (edited 18 February 2001).]

[Squawk 8888]

Lazlo, most of what you say is spot on (especially pilot's salaries) but your tax info is either very old or is from Québec, BC or the Maritimes. Ontario has been cutting income tax rates every year since 1996 (the fed also made a cut last year but it's too small to notice and got wiped out by a premium hike for the Canada Ponzi Plan), for 2000 most middle-income earners pay ~35% and the top rate (at $85,000/year) is now ~41%. My advice to foreigners is to settle in Ontario or Alberta if possible- Ontario has the lowest income tax rates and Alberta has the lowest overall tax burden. Avoid Québec & BC like the plague- crippling taxes and "in your face" government that's crippled the economy.

Pigboat, the flies up north are so big that ATC vectors us around them :)

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Nuke the rainforest- it's more efficient than logging.

[flxsrsrwy]

Lazlo,
You fail to mention that the cost of living in the UK is more than 2 and half times that of Canada.
Effectively that puts BA pilots pay scales below that of the Canadian charters and on par with a regional airline here.

One Pound Sterling = One CAD $ when cost of living factored in.
100,000 Sterling buys you a semi-detached in London and 250,000CAD gets you a small mansion outside Toronto.
10,000 Sterling gets you a mini in London and 25000 CAD gets you a full sized Chrysler in Canada...get the picture!

[gearup-lightup]

lazlo,thanks for the gen,i still think that canada wins it for me,i don't think that it is all bad here in the good old u.k. but i have seen a place where a better lifestyle is possible for me,that's taking every thing into consideration,i work for an airline that is very good,most of my time is jet ,some turbo,the problem for me is not income [i'll bet not many f.o's take home anything like i do] but lifestyle, ie i'd like one!
canada offers a much improved life for me and mine, i find it hard to believe that a pilot can not earn a decent standard of living in canada.
i pos tomorrow for 6 days away,like i do every week, thank god that i have a decent looking wife,it feels like i score every week,then just pi** off for another 6 days [ground hog day], good if i were single though!! your right about the salarys here in u.k. i think that they are just about to go thru the roof,so if the canada thing keels over,i'll just buy a small ranch as a holiday getaway.
regards...

[gearup-lightup]

no i don't work for big air, and my name is not nigel,perhaps we will speak again next week
regards....

[Randy_g]

Azure I would be voting for King Ralph, but I wouldn't be eligible for this one. I've been living down unda for the past year. Although I will be moving back this year. :)

Don't forget no sales tax in Alberta !!!

Everyone complains about taxes where they live. They do in England, Canada, the U.S., Australia, etc. Each country has advantages, and disadvantages.

England has a very high cost of living (my wife has cousins who keep telling us how cheap it is to live here in Oz!!!), moderate taxes (how about 17.5 % VAT??).

Here in Australia, we have a higher income tax rate than Canada. Cars, gas tax (gasoline) is higher, gst is higher @ 10%, stamp duty (an extra tax on houses, cars, etc.) medicare levy, almost need extra health coverage in order to get service (you also have to pay the excess that they don't cover ~ 30%), booze and smokes have a higher tax also. (despite all this I love Oz, and would rather stay, but work calls http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif) You see each country has problems and high costs. It all depends on your point of view, and your personal preference.

You can live quite well in Canada on a pilot's salary. I don't have a problem with what I get paid (and no I don't work for an airline). I earn enough to live modestly, and I have all I need. I became a pilot so that I could go out and fly. I didn't do it for the money. The money is decent, but someone pays me to do something I love to do !!! What a great way to spend my life !!! If I had wanted to make millions I would have become a compu-geek or stockbroker so there !!! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif :)

Cheers

Randy_G

If you can't stand the heat ...

Then turn up the airconditioning !! :)

[Lazlo]

Squawk,

You are right my information is a few years dated regarding taxes, and they originate from BC. However, I have lived in Ontario as well, just not as recently. You are correct about the taxes in Ontario being reduced so drastically but at what cost? I was in Ontario last year on holiday and I seem to recall that teachers were working to rule after not having had a pay increase in something like 9 years. So that is actually a big pay reduction with inflation taken into account (albeit low levels). This meant that there are no extracurricular activities, ie sports, music, etc, with the exception of a small number of teachers who were defying the union. As a parent, I would not settle in Ontario for this very reason. Having said that I think things here in Britain are headed that way as well!! I would live nowhere else but in BC but that is a personal decision. I would rather pay the extra tax because the overall quality of life (in areas that I see as important for myself and my family) is far higher. But you do pay for that and admittedly you do have to put up with some pretty weird governments.

Flxsrsrwy,

Your price comparisons are not quite correct because you cannot compare prices like for like in that way. The cost of living in the UK is certainly not 2.5 times that in Canada, just because the exchange rate is in that region. BA pilots certainly do NOT live a quality of life similar to an regional pilot in Canada. Nowhere even remotely near. These guys are living well, let me tell you. As an FO for a UK charter airline I can tell you that I have the lifestyle of a newly qualified AC captain. A semi-detached house in London by the way costs nowhere near £100,000, more like £250,000 unless you are planning on living somewhere really really horrible, but most pilots do not live in London. If you are based at LGW or LHR then yes, your housing costs will be higher but you do not need to live in London - guys are spread all over the south of England. London is so radicially more expensive than the rest of the country it is just unreal. Cost of living in London probably is 2.5 times that in Toronto but the rest of the UK is nowhere near that level. You can buy a nice detached home with garden in the midlands for £80-90,000, and south of Birmingham for £120,000. But it depends so much on where you buy, some places are expensive because people want to live there and some aren't. You say $250,000 will buy a small mansion outside of Toronto, but how far outside? Last time I looked $250,000 will buy a modest sized house in Mississauga but nothing more. But Toronto, like London, has that effect on house prices. If you spent $250,000 on a place just outside of Edmonton you'd get acres of land and a mansion. Depends where you buy. And it all comes down to mortgageable pay anyway. The simple fact is that based on the wages I have seen, a 757 FO for C3 can afford (on a single wage) a house that costs around $150-180,000. In Britain, a similar FO for a similar airline can afford a house that costs £150-170,000. That is the equivalent of around $330-400,000. That works out to a lot more house in the UK.

It does not cost £10,000 for a mini. Car prices have been unrealistically high in this country for years but this year has seen prices fall by a lot due to government pressure. £10,000 will buy you a much more decent car these days and by the way, that includes the sales tax of 17.5%, which is never quoted on the price of products in Canada (ie GST, PST except Alberta). The price on an item is what you pay, you don't get about 15% added at the counter. That is why, on the face of it, things in Canada look so much cheaper and while on the whole things are cheaper, they are not as cheap as you would think.

Something that may come as a surprise is that in Canada the health system is free but prescription drugs cost a lot of money. In the UK, the standard prescription fee is £6 for absolutely anything. In Canada, you had better have a drug plan of some sort, either in your company benefits plan or out of your own pocket (at around 50 bucks a month I think) because drugs are expensive. The last prescription I had in Canada was for some simple antibiotics for a minor infection at a cost of $80!!! I cannot imagine what I would do if I had a serious problem with no drug plan. And as well Canada does not have a two tier health system like we do in the UK. My company pays for private medical care for me (a nice little benefit I must say) but in Canada, as someone mentioned earlier, you have to go to the states and be prepared to spend thousands upon thousands for private health care.

Even things like energy costs cannot be compared like for like. The cost of energy in this country is a lot higher than in Canada, but we use only a fraction of the energy to heat our houses and therefore I actually spend less than the average Canadian doing so. If we all used resources to the same extent that Canadians do than sure, this place would be unliveable in terms of cost but we do not, since the climate is not so harsh. I do get tired of all the rain though. Thought it rained a lot in BC but this place takes the cake.

So after all that (sorry about the length) I am just trying to say that UK cost of living is not what it seems. Yes we are ripped off for a lot of things but not as bad as people might think . Everyone always thinks they have a raw deal but having lived on both sides of the fence I can safely say that both countries are great for some things and not for others. But for an airline (jet) pilot in Canada to enjoy the same standard of living as an equivalent pilot in the UK, F/O starting wages would have to be in the neighbourhood of around $80,000 and captains would have to start on around $130,000. I personally would never move back unless I could secure a wage of at least that amount but more likely closer to $90,000 or my quality of life would be seriously diminished. Which is a shame because I love Canada. But I hate the way it treats pilots. I have 3000 hours, 2500 of which are on 757/767. Anyone in Canada want to hire me for $90,000 plus benefits to live in Vancouver? I doubt it. Instead I will be buying a house in Canada for my holidays, because with my pay I can afford that sort of thing.

Gearup, I wish you the best of luck at it appears that you have thought things through and have got things sorted out. So long as you either have a great job arranged with decent salary, or you have another source of income, then life will be good for you.

[flxsrsrwy]

Lazlo,

Go to this website;
http://www.homefair.com/calc/intcitypick.html
and put in Burlington Ont and Gatwick.
Two areas just outside the main cities.
You will see that if you make 100,000CAD in Burlington you will need 225,000 CAD or about 100,000 sterling to have the same life style....comments?

[Squawk 8888]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">I was in Ontario last year on holiday and I seem to recall that teachers were working to rule after not having had a pay increase in something like 9 years.</font>
The work-to-rule and illegal wildcat strikes have nothing to do with pay (they've all had regular raises that beat inflation)- it's a power struggle between our elected officials and the union bosses, with the teachers having very little say in the matter. The union honchos are upset that (1) they are no longer setting education policy and (2) the reforms put in place are making schools accountable to parents. Many parents are publicly condemning the reforms but privately supporting them- they've learned the hard way that openly criticizing the unions will destroy your kids' chances of getting into university. The teachers are even worse off- many oppose the union brass but can't opt out (union membership is mandatory) and those who didn't toe the party line have had their homes & cars vandalized. BTW when a union boss whines about "no increase in nn years", the truth is that the position pays the same, but the person is still making plenty more- think airlines where one starts as a CRJ FO and advances to 747 captain- if the salary scales are frozen the union would claim "no increase" even though most of the drivers are making lots more.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">in Canada the health system is free</font>
That is the most dangerous myth about socialized medicine ever created. In Ontario the system is financed by a 5% payroll tax (one of the reasons we have chronically high unemployment) plus other revenue, so that "free" health care cost me well over $4,000 last year. I could get a full-coverage plan in the US for about 2/3 of that.

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">In Canada, you had better have a drug plan of some sort, either in your company benefits plan or out of your own pocket (at around 50 bucks a month I think) because drugs are expensive.</font>
I pay $7.50/month for 100% drugs, 100% dental, $120,000 term life and disablity (benefit $2600/month).

------------------
Nuke the rainforest- it's more efficient than logging.

[Lazlo]

Flxrxrwy,

You obviously don't know an awful lot about the UK. It is ludicrous comparing Burlington and Gatwick. You would be better off comparing Burlington to Luton or Peterborough or Stevenage something similar. Gatwick is in one of the most expensive postcodes in the country. You would be better off comparing it with something like Rosedale or Forest Hill. Gatwick has excellent transportation connections with London which is why it is so expensive. I am telling you as someone with personal experience living in both countries what the real situation is like, not what some website generator can compute. Just the fact that you have equated the quality of life of a BA Captain with that of a Regional FO is ludicrous and should be treated as such. Do not forget that the be all and end all of living in the UK does not mean living in Surrey or London. You can just as easily be based in BHX, MAN, LBA, NCL, GLA, EMA etc and instantly your cost of living is less than half of that in London. Just like in Canada. If you choose to live in Rosedale or West Vancouver or London England you accept the fact that most of your money is spent on property. If you choose to live in Burlington or Brighton or Manchester then you will have a bit more money in your pocket at the end of the month. For example. If I wasn't married with kids, on my wage I can afford a large four bedroom house, a fancy German sportscar (yes bought in the UK), two trips abroad every year and a holiday home in Canada. Because I have kids I am afraid that I have had to skip the sportscar and settle for two cars of a more practical type. Did I mention that I am the only wage-earner? Not bad when, by your calculations, I am on a salary equivalent to less than a regional pilot (since I am paid nowhere near what a BA captain gets).

Squawk,

I don't really care what the "real" dispute is with the teachers, all I am saying is that the dispute is most defenitely there. It is present and causing problems, and the other provinces do not have these problems to the extent that Ontario does and therefore it cannot be good for my kids and therefore I am better off living somewhere that does not have this dispute. And by the way teachers get pay rises for about the first ten years of their careers and then hit the ceiling, so they depend on pay awards to at least match inflation to prevent what in real terms amounts to a decrease in pay. So for any teacher who has been teaching for more than ten years they have not seen an increase for quite some time. Your point on the health-care situation is well put and I digress.

[Lazlo]

Flx,

I have just tried that link you gave but it does not seem to work. So I went to the main site and all I can get is a thing that compares two cities but only in Canada and the US. Any suggestions?

[flxsrsrwy]

Lazlo.

Go to the main page at homefair.com, look on the left side and click on salary calculator. When the next page comes up look in the centre and click on international cities, next page,click Canada and UK then whatever cities you want to compare.
I just tried Guelph Ont and Cardiff. The difference is 2.2 to 1 or Guelph, Belfast 2 to 1.
The cost of living in the UK is twice or more as much as Canada.
BTW, I did not say that BA Capts earn the same as regional FO's.
I said that when COL is factored in, and if a senior BA Capt makes about 120K sterling/year, that is less than a charter guy makes.

[Lazlo]

OK That works now, but I am afraid that the website quite simply does not take all factors into account. There are so many variables to consider, and it just doesnt consider them all. 2.2 times or even 2 times more expensive is not correct. The cost of housing here is probably why the website has come up with such large figures in its comparison and I have to admit housing CAN be pretty expensive. However when you take into account that the interest rates for mortgages are considerably less than in Canada and going down, as well as the fact that as soon as you get yourself onto the "property ladder" you can make a lot of money in a very short time, it actually isnt that bad at all. Certainly not twice as bad! And really, a BA captain is on a par with a senior AC Captain. I mean think about it, a lot of those guys have houses in villages near Heathrow. Those places can be worth UK £300,000 and up which translates very quickly in to CAD millions. Canadian charter pilots are not on wages that can support that, but BA Captains (and FOs for that matter). If they couldn't, they wouldn't fly. Funny thing is I was on a Canadian charter aircraft flight deck recently and both pilots were asking me if there was any way they could get a UK passport - they said they wanted to fly in the UK where there was "real" money to be made! Well, the real money is in the US but the UK is a lot better than Canada.

[Azure]

"Taxes" were not taken into consideration on that comparision website; a big chunk of the pie missing.

[Tintin]

sorry but not only that. I working now in a country where the F/A make more money that an F/O on a 757, 320, 310 in Canada. Very sorry for us.I would return in Canada anytime for half less that what I have now. But unfortunatly the Canadien market is not ready yet to pay us that much.

One thing also we have to keep in our mind as professional our career can stop tomorow, in six month, or at 60 year old, we don't know, the only think we can do for us and our familly is to prepare ourself, take care of our health and our future. if I ever lose my medical with the money you manage to put aside with the salarie plus the tax in Canada, I don't think I will have enough money to return to school, take care of the familly and send my children at school in the same time.

this is my opignon
cheer

[Randy_g]

I'll be moving back to Canada in about 2 weeks, and I'll be visiting the wonderland known as England on my way. I'll see for myself what it's like. One question for you Lazlo, if it's so wonderful there, how come I've met so many ex-pat Brits looking for work way down here in the land of Oz, and the ones asking about immigrating to Canada ??? Sure if you are one of the few who get on with BA you'll do alright, but what about places like Easy-jet, or any of the other low-cost airlines ?? Do they pay the same as BA ???

I don't know all that much about the country, other than what I see on the telly. Had any problems getting petrol lately ?? Didn't the truckies blockade the distribution points ?? Fire engines, ambulances, police all ran out of fuel at various times. Me thinks that's as bad as a few union folks whingeing about their pay. Had any good meat lately ?? Thinking of becoming a vegetarian while I'm visiting there. God only knows what kind of disease will be in the meat. I'll make sure that I don't go near any football stadiums while a game is going on, I like my head without a brick, or pipe lodged in it. Great place you got there !!! ;)

Before anyone gets all wound up, believe it or not, I'm not trying to put England down. What I am try to say is that every country has it's good and bad points, and you'll find whatever you're looking for. If you look for the bad, then that's what you'll find. I was able to find a few bad without really trying. I can find good too. Wonderful scenery, vast history, good beer, :) friendly people, etc.

No place is perfect, otherwise we'd all live there. If you live in the States, you're more likely to be involved in a violent crime, than say Sweden, but you'll pay less in tax. I respect anyones choice to live where they want. Just be careful putting someone elses country down when you don't have the information. Going only by the media, or a short vacation can really skew ones perceptions.

I apologise if I have insulted anyone, or caused you grief, I meant only to make you think.

Cheers

Randy_G

If you can't stand the heat ...

Then turn up the airconditioning !! :)

p.s. Tin Tin if I lose my license, and go on disability insurance, whatever they pay me is tax free. A friend told me about a company that will cover pilots, and they pay out if I cannot perform my duties because of medical reasons. So if I lose my medical, they pay. They will also help in any retraining. I would recomend every pilot gets their own personal disability insurance. (no I'm selling it !! :))

[This message has been edited by Randy_g (edited 24 February 2001).]

[Azure]

Don't worry about the beef on your stopover.
According to the National Post here in Canada, we're shipping tons of HORSE MEAT to Europe.

"Quote: Most of the animals come from huge feedlots where they are raised for slaughter. Others are former racehorses or unwanted pets."

Makes me gag!

Have a safe trip home; even though I'm not very proud of it at the moment!



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[email protected]

[Dockjock]

For a comparison of some salaries in the lower echelons of the aviation ladder in Canada I offer you these (from personal experience):

Bush pilot, small cessna $1500-2400/mo.
Bush pilot, Beaver/Otter $2200-5000/mo.
Flight instructor $15-25/hr
B1900 F/O $24,000-33,000/yr

The bush pilots obviously live outside of 'society' in general, so cost of living is usually fairly low. Large sacrifices must be made at all stages to move up the career ladder as you can see a large pay cut is in order to join a Tier III regional on a B1900 (minimum approx. 2000 hrs.). All pay gripes aside, we've got a pretty good thing going in Canada and I plan to stay.

[Ex NAV]

I think all have missed the original post - "CANADA increases immigration Quota"
I note that the 1st World countries hardly feature???
I left Canada some 10 Years ago and would not go back by choice (except for holidays)as it seems their Medical system is is shot (at least I have a choice with Private)taxes high etc.
Certainly, the standard of living is higher in Canada, but what of the Quality of life??

And who is going to pay for this increase in Immigration and who of the "Good 'ole Canuk" will be left after the next 10 years if this trend continues?

Shame!

[Tintin]

randy g.

I will apreciate some info on that insurance.

thanks

[Code Blue]

The topic of this thread was about Immigration numbers, but the postings are mainly "my choice of country is better than yours because.....".

randy_g was nearest in his assessment which boils down to weighing the pros and cons of any particular choice. Some seem happier to trade say health insurance for extra income, where others look to lower taxation. Most of the people are content to an extent with their choices - I'm sure the pop-psychologists could comment on the depth of feeling that can be generated in these discussions :)

The postings here really seem to revolve around economic "refugees' wanting to go where the cash rewards are greatest.... No-one has mentioned the other large group of people who come for reasons of safety. Whatever your views on the economic aspects of your choices, it might be worth checking Nr Fairy's thread "Food for Thought" in JB to see why some people may want to leave their current homes.


I haven't seen the details of C-15 so I don't have a handle on what changes will result if/when it passes.

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[email protected]

[gearup-lightup]

Why is canada increasing imm'?
could it be, that they need people, i.e that the population is getting older,birth rates are low, and the economy is trying to expand?

[Lazlo]

Randy_g,

I feel I need to clarify a few things with regard to your comments. You should know that Canada is first and foremost "my country". I am a Canadian, I am not British and I do not hold a British Passport. I am able to live here in Britain because my wife and children are British. I am by no means trying to say "my country is better than yours" or anything of the sort. All I am saying is that if you are a pilot, by and large, Britain is by far a better place to be, in terms of job availability and quality of work as well as renumeration for that work. We can argue until the cows come home about how far the pound goes vs the dollar as you can see we have been doing, but make no mistake - pilots in Britain are treated with much more respect than those in Canada.

If you choose to do a little research during your short visit here you will find that in fact BA is not the highest paid carrier in the UK at the moment and many of the low cost carriers actually pay more. I believe Ryanair is actually the highest with an average pilot salary of something like £100K including share options. And for your information Easyjet have just advertised to PAY type-rated captains £30K just to join and thereafter £66K basic to start. I have never ever heard of a "golden hello" in Canadian aviation.

You said:

Just be careful putting someone elses country down when you don't have the information. Going only by the media, or a short vacation can really skew ones perceptions.
--

Again I repeat, I am Canadian and I am by no means putting someone elses country down, and I most certainly do have the "information" to comment on the subject thank you very much. I might say the same back to you though with your comments re petrol (that took place over a few weeks in September and is now a distant memory) I am not too sure you are up to date with the current information. And I have been to plenty of football matches without receiving a pole in the face or a brick in the head. And besides, I have always agreed that the UK is pretty bad when it comes to the price of motoring. You are correct about the meat here, and indeed many people are vegetarian. Pretty good for the health actually. I do not understand why the UK always has these meat problems but they do and it is pretty annoying. Might I add that Europe (including the UK) has a ban on importation of Canadian beef due to the hormone treatment that it receives. Apparently not everyone thinks that it is such a good thing to do with cattle. So maybe Canada's beef isn't so good!?! I don't know, I am not a scientist. I just fly airplanes.

The reason why there are so many UK pilots in your country looking for jobs is probably because they cannot get jobs here. Just because airlines are getting really desperate to find pilotsdoes not mean they will hire just anyone. They are looking primarily for qualified pilots and failing that they are looking for low timers that they feelhave the ability to learn so it won't cost them too much money. Just because you have a licence does not mean that an airline will want to hire you. No matter how good the market is, there will always always always be some that cannot get jobs for whatever reason.

And finally, I noticed you mentioned the loss of licence situation. Here in the UK it is pretty normal for your company to provide loss of licence insurance (usually 3 to 3.5 times your annual salary) for you as well as PHI to pay 75% of your wages while you are on long term sick. That is what I have; don't you? If I lose my licence I will be a wealthy man (and probably return to Canada).

Maybe you should stay a little longer during your stop here - times are pretty good for pilots.

[Ex NAV]

Well said LAZLO.

I am also Canadian but had the option some years ago to relocate, did it for reasons explained, - would not change for the world or go anywhere in the world EXCEPT Canada.

When last in YYZ on holiday (to visir my daughter), I went to a mall in Scar'boro and thought I was in CHINA - no english spoken, no signs in English and everyone looking at you as if you are not welcome. At least when I night stop in China, they are friendly and pleasant. I strongly feel that the Canadian immigration policy of multi-cultureism(?) has gone amiss - instead of intergration there is separation into one's own community.

What will happen to us canuk's in the future in any walk of life?

[Code Blue]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">When last in YYZ on holiday (to visir my daughter), I went to a mall in Scar'boro and thought I was in CHINA - no english spoken, no signs in English and everyone looking at you as if you are not welcome</font>

We live in a Brave New 'Global' World. People will seek out familiar customs and language after they have moved, it seems almost instinctive. You mention YYZ, have you been to Rusholme or Moss Side in MAN? Or the Canadian/UK expats around Bankok. It's exactly the same - human nature.

Gearup- <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">could it be, that they need people</font>
Some professions are in desperately short supply - BC has a fast track deal with Immigration Canada for nurses for example. Believe it or not there is an acute shortage of Exotic Dancers ;) :rolleyes:

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[email protected]
edited for appalling typing

[This message has been edited by Code Blue (edited 26 February 2001).]

[Randy_g]

Lazlo that was a terrible pun. "We can argue until the cows come home..." :) I appreciate you setting things straight, as you can see, it's very easy to make mistakes when you have very limited sources to get info from. BTW it's not quite so rosy for those flying helicopters in England. That's what I fly, and I have no ambition to fly fixed wing. I get too much satisfaction from what I do, and enjoy a diversity that I have seen only in Canada. Job satisfaction, that is the most important thing to me, where my employment is concerned. I find it in Canada, and you find it in England. It's good to see that some employers take care of their employees as well as yours does. :)

Cheers

Randy_G

If you can't stand the heat ...

Then turn up the airconditioning !! :)

[Randy_g]

I guess I'll get back to the original topic. Our country was built on immigration. Even our "first citizens" immigrated to Canada (according to the history that I know). All current citizens have either immigrated, or had ancestors who did. There have been great contributions to our country by these immigrants. Quite a few Chinese worked, and died to build our railroad. Ukrainians, Poles, Czechs, have opened up the prairies. Many blacks came to Canada to escape their slavemasters, and have contributed to our country. We are all aware of what the original French and English settlers did. Scandinavian and Icelandic people settled Manitoba. Italians, Greeks, Jewish have all contributed much to our society.

There have been criminals, layabouts, welfare bludgers, etc that have entered our country. They've been allowed in for the whole of our history. How many who shipped out with Wolfe, or Maissoneuff (pardon the spelling) had impecable records ?? How many who came from Europe before, during, or after the wars were criminals, but we never knew because the records were destroyed, or they were lost ??

Food for thought ?? Canada has been multi-cultural right from the beginning.

Cheers

Randy_G

If you can't stand the heat ...

Then turn up the airconditioning !! :)

[Antman]

Now that more are allowed into Canada.
What are the job prospects like.
Could I get a nice flying job ?
Age 31 & single
6500hrs TT
6200hrs Multi
2800hrs B737
1500Hrs B737 PIC
4000hrs PIC
Current B737 Captain, willing to take a step back to move many forward.
I believe it's a great place to live with very little violent crime. That would be a great change from the RSA.

[gearup-lightup]

antman,get yourself over there-should find a good job no bother...regards

[Randy_g]

With your experience you shouldn't have a problem finding work. West Jet (http://www.westjet.com) is a good company that flies 737's. You could also try First Air (http://www.firstair.ca) they fly 737's as well, but they also fly into Canada's Arctic. Or you can try Air Canada (http://www.aircanada.ca) our flag carrier.

Hope I've helped.

Randy_g



[This message has been edited by Randy_g (edited 27 February 2001).]

[Ace McKool]

Antman,

Had a South African on my course at WestJet in '99. He is about to upgrade with the rest of us and has never looked back. Has a smile on his face whenever I see him...

[Antman]

Thanks Gentleman

I think I'm off to the Canadian Embassy next week(First day Off)

P.S.
Ace, is it possible you might find out from your South African friend what it involves converting my SA ATPL (It's a real one) to a Canadian ATPL with my type of background and experience.

[This message has been edited by Antman (edited 27 February 2001).]

[Ace McKool]

It's actually pretty easy. All you have to do is write a couple of exams and take an instrument flight test (they don't seem to recognize IFR flying overseas). It's all pretty straight forward. I will tell my buddy about this post - maybe he could offer more info.

[drop bags bar]

Antman, I've just finnished redoing my licence from SA to Canadian. Exams are fairly straightforward but do require a fair bit of work. Budget around $3000 all in with books exam fees etc to get it done and around two months in total (the longest wait is having your log book verified).

On the work front once you're over 5000 hours your pretty much set anything less than that be prepared to take BIG steps backwards.

On the salary front, not fantastic by eny means but none the less well worth the move.

[drop bags bar]

One more thing plan on around 18 months to 2 years to get here with all the paper work etc. most of the hangups are on the SA side, home affairs etc. Supprised?

Use a Lawyer. It'll cost you $2000-3000 but well worth it, it will save you months of paperwork been thrown back in your face.

[Cyclic Hotline]

The reason for Canada allowing more immigration, might be to replenish the inventory for the steady number of Canadians who move to the States! ;)

[klaus]

guys, the grass must be greener over there, please, just lie to me if necessary, ok! I bet your country doesn't fall apart when a massive 1 inch of snow falls, or your cattle are being slaughtered 'coz some dozy twonk decided to import foot and mouth and spread it everywhere, and i bet any money that you haven't got a well known book store selling half-hour 'dream' flights for £89 (cnd 189 at this mornings ex.) in a 172r. rant over, ifeel sssooooo much better

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[skidcanuck]

Cyclic, I wish I were one of those Canadians going Stateside. I tried, got my FAA ATPL, etc..., but the INS says pilots aren't on the "preferred occupation" list. There's been a lot of gossip about that changing, but my US lawyer says he hasn't heard a thing about that (he's a judge as well).

I guess I'm stuck with Tim Hortons coffee for now!

[gearup-lightup]

is canada about to feel the massive pilot shortage that we euro's are starting to see,withpay rises in the region of 20% as airlines stuggle to keep/attract pilots.???
what is the situation in canada?

[Randy_g]

Gearup There are still a lot of low-time guys just waiting in the wings (pardon the pun :)) for a chance to fly. There are jobs for pilots with jet experience. But a shortage would be a long way off. We have a decent network of feeder tier 2 & 3 carriers that the major airlines can choose from. The tier 2's & 3's get their pilots from charter, instructors, float/bush operations, even right out of flight school (some tier 3's).

Canada is also lagging behind other countries in rates of pay. It all boils down to supply and demand here. There is a large supply of pilots, with a lower demand for them. The job market is incredibly competitive over here, but it is a great country to fly in. If Europe has a shortage, maybe they'll open their borders and allow some of our excess to migrate over there and then help both countries. :) A guy can dream can't he ?? :)


Cheers

Randy_G

If you can't stand the heat ...

Then turn up the airconditioning !! :)

[tail dragger]

Some good stuff I,ve read with this topic so far but I must come out and ask a strait forward question. You Canadians out there who have lived in the UK (and worked), Would you give up a leading charter airline position for a job oportunity with Air Canada? I have lived in the UK for quite a while now and long for my home land!
Keep in mind that money is not everything! Quality of life is!
Cheers

[gearup-lightup]

randy, i think if you want, there will be many opportunities in euro land,talk to the agencies etc. things are already getting almost desperate over here, so if you want in then start talking now!
taildragger,
you are right ,it just depends on the individual,if you like europe then you can have a nice lifestyle over here, and at least double your salary, we are seeing pay awards of around 15 to 20% and this is only the start!!!with some euro contrys giving good tax deals to attract foriegn people!!!, I am trying to get to canada, for lifestyle reasons, but the canada imm is bl****y awkwards, and I have not even looked at lic' conversion yet, but in the meantime I take home to her indoors about 8500 can every month! as a jet fo and this is set to rise significantly in the comming months so good luck all,the choice is yours
regards

[tail dragger]

Gearup-lightup,
I'm not sure what company you work for but I too work as an F/O on Jet a/c and make no where near 8500 Cad/mo. As for the 15 to 20% pay rise ! Where did you get that info from?
I'm looking for info from anyone who may have left the UK for Canada. Differences in earnings in the jet jobs etc. ie is it worth the move?
Cheers eh!

[Randy_g]

Gearup I am not looking to go to Europe, just hoping that they might lure some from Canada so that we can get some rises in pay. :) Europe just can't offer me the flying I can get in Canada. I also enjoy living there, and I'm moving back there today as a matter of fact. (by way of the U.K. for a friends wedding) Life for a poor, old chopper guy just ain't the same on "The Continent".

The immigration dept is about the same as any other immigration dept I've had to deal with. They just take time, they are civil servants after-all. I was actually surprised by the ones here in Aus (for my wifes application). They were helpful, and pretty quick. But then they process "family class" requests first. Good luck with your application, they may be slow, but they do get around to all of them. :)

Cheers

Randy_g

[The Bishop]

Just got told that the waiting list for an interview at Sydney is over 30 months (this is not a joke)!! Obviously Aussies and Kiwis are not a target group.

Surely all the immigrants that come out of India and China don't get interviewed.

Can anyone advise what the waiting time is at Buffalo, NY??

BTW I have a job to go to but its not HRDC endorsed (bummer!)

[drop bags bar]

18 months when I did it last year, got worse I'm told!!! Try London.

[doo]

The end of the day there are good jobs in Europe, with good pay, and a high cost of living, but if you are looking in the UK anyway, try Easyjet, Ryanair, of GO as they all sem to need people,

[The Bishop]

Drop Bags Bar,

can I enquire as to the date when you dropped the paperwork in and the date you got interviewed?

I was told that they were still interviewing people from 1998 but I might have been talking to the department gumby (sure sounded like it). Dates from specific cases would give me a better idea.

[drop bags bar]

Got interviewed May last year, handed in the paperwork in early Feb 1999. They may well still be interviewing 1998 cases, those that had their paperwork thrown back at them.

[pilot31]

DROP BAGS BAR ,
In relation to convertion to Canadian ATPL: What do you mean by "the longest wait is having your log book verified" and what is duration and cost of flight test?

Thank you




[This message has been edited by pilot31 (edited 19 March 2001).]

[collective bias]

Thanks Cyclic for the post,
Its a shame that we have to endure 4 pages of FW wage discussion before some interesting comments.
I plan to be in Canada in 2002. I will convert my licence at Heli-college or CHC and then go looking for work and sponsorship. Its really going out on a limb not having any guarantees.
Can you advise how much an OZ/NZ ATPL would cost to convert? I have 1000hrs+ on pistons and 1500hrs on S76 as co-pilot. Real keen on the bush ops and learning more longline. Could you advise any employers to try?
Thanks

[IHL]

Collective Bias: Rumor has it that CHC Domestic (CHL) is/will be looking for S-76 pilots. I think their minimum requirement is a commercial with 500 hours total , Instrument rating and ATR exams written. I just recently saw an add for Cougar helicopters , they are looking for 2 co-pilots for the 61 and Puma + plus a VFR pilot.

[Zeke]

collective bias,

Have a look at www.aerocourse.com, (http://www.aerocourse.com,) did 3 days with aerocourse (had P.S.)(www.aerocourse.com)and passed all three exams, about CAN$400 for the course, and CAN$40 per exam.

You will need to do a small flight test, talk to B.G at Juan Air, they may be able to help, nice mob [email protected] (it nirmally just a multi engine ride for the fixed wing ATPL conversion, dont know about choppers).

:rolleyes:

[collective bias]

IHL and Zeke,
Thanks for the advice guys it is GREATLY appreciated.
IHL, I have been on to Dave McCutheon at CHC Eastern. He seemed keen but it is always hard when you are continents away to relate your serious interest. I think the best option is to get the licence converted and show up in person.
Drop us an e-mail sometime and tell us what you are up to over there. Thanks again, maybe I can shout you guys a beer next year.

[IHL]

Hey Collective Bias what's your email address ?
IHL

[collective bias]

IHL,
[email protected]
Out bush on a survey job for a week, so will reply to any message after that time.
Fly Safe.