Apnea, early starts blamed in Hawaii pilots' nap

[Brian Abraham]

FAA Is Checking Whether Flight Crew Fell Asleep
We've heard about airline pilots falling asleep in flight before, but this report is even stranger than usual -- it was 9 o'clock in the morning, and the flight was a 45-minute hop from Honolulu to Hilo. Local TV station KGMB9 said it obtained a radar track of the flight, which showed it stayed at 21,000 feet and flew past the Hilo airport about 15 miles out to sea before turning around and returning to descend. The FAA confirmed that it is checking into the incident. Air traffic controllers reportedly tried to contact the pilots for 25 minutes and got no response. The airplane, operated by Go! Airlines, landed without incident.

Pilot fatigue has been a growing concern among safety advocates. The NTSB said recently that it has found at least six flights where pilots fell asleep at the controls, including one in which both pilots nodded off on a Frontier Airlines flight from Washington to Denver in 2004. The safety board named pilot fatigue as one of its "most wanted" list of needed safety improvements.

[Huck]

this report is even stranger than usual -- it was 9 o'clock in the morning,

Not strange if they were on duty all night, or suffered a "reduced rest overnight" of eight hours block-in to block-out.....

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Not strange if they were on duty all night>>

If you fly your life might well be in the hands of air traffic controllers who have been up all night.. If you have to visit hospital with an emergency, you may be operated on by a doctor who has worked twice as hard as any pilot or controller..... There are plenty more people in the world who manage their working hours without being unduly fatigued - I did it for nigh on 40 years. It's just a matter of managing one's life appropriately.

[Dunhovrin]

Just remind us again how many breaks you get in your shift HD?

[fireflybob]

If you fly your life might well be in the hands of air traffic controllers who have been up all night.. If you have to visit hospital with an emergency, you may be operated on by a doctor who has worked twice as hard as any pilot or controller..... There are plenty more people in the world who manage their working hours without being unduly fatigued - I did it for nigh on 40 years. It's just a matter of managing one's life appropriately.

Heathrow Director, I know what you mean but might I respectfully suggest that it's not always as simple as that. Legislation still allows flight crew to work long and fatiguing schedules. Let's not forget that it took a major accident to get any flight time limitations back in early days of commercial aviation.

It's one thing to be "legal" but quite another to be fit to fly with respect to fatigue.

[jetopa]

Absolutely correct! Yes, there are regulations in place, but you could still face being sent to the other part of the globe without adequate rest before and after that flight, your circadian rhythm out of sync, the hotel noisy and check-in less than 10h away.

Long range flying is only one aspect. Fatigue happens to all of us and it is a potential killer. Nobody can tell me that you'll perform 100% at 5 am when something in your airplane unexpectedly (as always) goes south. I know that it is even harder to shoot a challenging approach after a long day and then facing bad WX, a relatively short runway etc. I'm thinking for example of the Iberia guys who 'scratched' their A340 the other day...

Being allowed to take so-called 'strategic naps' of 15-20 minutes really makes a difference and should be used, whenever necessary.

Authorities first become interested when something went wrong and the operators won't do a thing when it costs money - these are the facts.:(

[sevenstrokeroll]

heathrow director

you are in a relatively comfortable seat, breathing 8000 foot oxygen, and the sun is shining in your cockpit making it warm. you can't move, that breaks the regs.

you fall asleep if you haven't gotten a good nights sleep that's ap ilots lot


an emergency room doctor is moving between patients every few minutes, breathing the same oxygen as where he lives. he looks people in the eye and doesn't focus at infinity.

they are very different animals.

[SLFguy]

lol!! pprune all over..

Post 1 - reports an incident.

Post 2 - supposition as to cause

Post 3 - has a pop at Poster of Post 2

Posts thereafter all are written as if the supposition in Post 2 is hard fact along with pops at poster 3.

Classic!

[Oilhead]

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASH1002/history/20080213/1925Z/PHNL/PHTO

:E

[Oilhead]

"If you fly your life might well be in the hands of air traffic controllers who have been up all night.. If you have to visit hospital with an emergency, you may be operated on by a doctor who has worked twice as hard as any pilot or controller..... There are plenty more people in the world who manage their working hours without being unduly fatigued - I did it for nigh on 40 years. It's just a matter of managing one's life appropriately."

Years ago (early 80's) I flew PA 31's out of Kidlington. I recall a couple of controllers from LHR flew for an air charter company there too. In speaking to one he routinely used to say that after/before flying a full dat at Oxford, he had a full shift at LHR ATC. I was always impressed at how he managed to be up for 24 hours straight doing two jobs!

[MungoP]

IMHO fatigue is every bit as dangerous and far and away more prevelant on the flight-deck than alcohol... though being a less sexy subject fails to get the deserved attention...
Heathrow Directors comments about managing ones life-style are for the most part utter nonsence... our bodies cannot be ordered by the ops dept to sleep at pre-programmed hours... or to get the type of sleep needed to refresh our minds sufficiently. Without resorting to drugs many people (myself inc) find it difficult or impossible to sleep during the day and after a series of 4/5 or 6 sector days with 11 hr turnarounds in foreign hotels most of us are operating below par... Try telling a hotel that you don't need the raucous racket of 3 hotel maids laughing and vacuuming the other side of your door at 9am and they'll think you're mad.

Eventually I chucked airline work simply because I couldn't take any more crap schedules. Many do not have the luxury of choice.

I believe that the US FLTs are less generous than the Europeans' ... but the Airline lobby is hugely powerful in the land where the buck rules all.

[Bobbsy]

I'm one of your SLF members and saw this news story earlier today on another (non-aviation) forum I visit.

The first thing that came to mind is a question:

I understand exactly what sevenstrokeroll is saying about the flight deck being a comfortable, warm place if you're tired. However, how realistic is it to get that drowsy on a route with a total flight time of 29 minutes. My (uninformed, amateur) impression is that this sort of route would be pretty busy from beginning to end and I'd have thought that drowsiness would be much more likely on much longer sectors. The analogy I gave my wife was that a driver is much more likely to get drowsy at the wheel on a long boring highway than on a short hop in town. Was I wrong?

Bobbsy

[meat bomb]

Even a short flight can have pitfalls if it involves a task the pilot is very familiar with,or if hes just starting night shifts after a few days of early starts. No matter how good your management of your time is, if you've gotten used to waking up at 6 am, you wont wake up at 6 pm the next evening.

[nigegilb]

I have done both jobs, 6 years as a Controller, and I have been flying long haul for 5 years. Heathrow Director, honestly, you have no idea about the level of fatigue endured by long haul pilots. Can't speak for short haul, I suspect it is a different kind of tiredness.

[400drvr]

Right on the money Huck!

8 hours has been the gold standard for years by management and the FAA for a restful overnight for crews. Considering it takes 30 minutes to get to the hotel bus after completing your postflight duties, 30 minutes transit time and check in, if your like me I need a few minutes to relax before falling fast asleep to only:rolleyes: be awakened during your REM cycle. So now we are down to 7 hours of rest. Since most airlines require a 1 hour show time that means you have to be up minimum of one hour before your rest period ends, so now we are down to six hours of peaceful slumber. Then there is a little known requirement that most people need to eat something at least twice a day so do you go for the Kit Kat bar or the Milky Way, uhm.... Then throw in the unknown factors like waiting for another crew at the airport since the hotel is not going to send another van for them in twenty minutes, or after check in your find that some one is in your room or the key does not work.

I know I'm preaching to the choir it's just very frustrating to me as well as countless bleary eyed crew members out there. And what I find amazing this stuff like this does not happen more often.:rolleyes:

[mirabeau]

One thing that you guys probably don't realise is that there are no duty time rules for a private jet crew. And some of them are big jets !

Back to back flights are common in this game and duty time of 26 hours or more are not uncommon, especialy out of the middle east. You may say that surely its up to the captain to tell the owner that enough is enough ! but there are not many guys who will risk unemployment by rocking the boat.
The amazing thing is that the owners are usually frightened fartless of turbulence but seem quite happy to have there crews flying ridiculous hours untill they are fit to drop !

So next time your in the hold around LHR and the TCAS looks like a swarm of flies, you can feel comforted in the knowledge that there's a chance that some exhausted private crew is sharing the same airspace.

Perhaps its time that legislation took everyone into account.

Sleep well.:eek:

[kwachon]

Got to agree with Mirabeau, I had the situation after a 9 hour flight from the middle east, put the a/c to bed, catch a cab to the hotel, check in and order some food only to get a phone call 15 mins later from the boss that he needs to go back to the middle east and can we have the aircraft ready in 2 hours !!!!.

Happens all the time to us but we have not yet had the balls to try power napping in turn so when atc is looking at all the maggots on the screen, guess which one is well rested and safe to make that approach in bad weather with g/s out so loc only etc.

[jorel]

Heathrow Director...

Always used to amuse me turning up at LATCC after the night shift had finished and seeing you guys walking out with duvets blankets and pillows, thats if you did not get the e.g. before your shift had finished....

[manrow]

If you fly your life might well be in the hands of air traffic controllers who have been up all night.. If you have to visit hospital with an emergency, you may be operated on by a doctor who has worked twice as hard as any pilot or controller..... There are plenty more people in the world who manage their working hours without being unduly fatigued - I did it for nigh on 40 years. It's just a matter of managing one's life appropriately.

Thank goodness the author of these words is now apparently retired.

Such people who manage to run such perfect lives would never be able to understand how the imperfect rest of us make mistakes for reasons of fatigue or otherwise!

[Huck]

It's just a matter of managing one's life appropriately.

Didn't I used to work for you? I recall a memo once about "compartmentalizing your fatigue"......

As for doctors, controllers, et al: slight difference in the magnitude of the downside risk.

(Have you ever heard the difference between ham and eggs? The chicken is involved, but the pig is committed....)

I'll compare the relative fatigue of doctors and pilots when doctors die if their patients die. Hell, I'd settle for them losing their licenses if they make a fatal mistake.

[manrow]

Huck.

You are on the right track there with some good examples!

[niknak]

There is a subtle difference between being tired and being fatigued.

I can't remember exactly where the reference is stated, but the Medical profession and the UK CAA recognise it as follows:

When you are tired, you are able to recognise and react to a given situation.

When you are fatigued, you are often unable to recognise and nearly always unable to react to the same situation.

Given the hours that pilots have to put in before and during a long haul flight, it would be interesting to know who would admit to being "tired" and "fatigued".

[bzh]

In our company it's ok to have a rest in the flight deck, simple rules, one pilot at the time, advise the back end and schedule a call no more than 45min after being advise just in case the second pilot dosed off. and wake up at least 20min before TOD...but on a short flight they must have been tired before leaving....

Anyways North America has to enforce stronger rules on duty days and ban continues duty, impose restrictions on red eyes and give better protections to pilots turning down flights because of fatigue.....ALPA where are you????

BZH
EX cargo driver....

[Teal]

I'll never forget finishing ATC nightshifts and, (particularly after having already worked the previous morning shift), momentarily falling asleep on the one hour drive home, not to mention driving thru red lights and stopping at green lights. That's fatigue. Meanwhile the supervisor or senior ATCs usually had the luxury of a 4 or 5 hour nap whilst 'the workers' ran the centre.

[PAXboy]

Non-pilot speaking
bzhIn our company it's ok to have a rest in the flight deck, simple rules, one pilot at the time, advise the back end and schedule a call no more than 45min after being advise just in case the second pilot dosed off. and wake up at least 20min before TOD
That sounds like common sense. Which means that very few companies will do it. I have often read that cat-napping is meant to be a good way to lengthen life, by restoring you in the middle of your 'day'.

[Oilhead]

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ASH1002/history/20080213/1925ZZ/PHNL/PHTO

Look at the RoD once they started down....


Canadair Regional Jet CRJ-200 (twin-jet) (CRJ2/)
Origin Honolulu Intl (PHNL)
Destination Hilo Intl (PHTO)
Other flights between these airports
Route MKK4 PULPS V21 PUMIC V15
Date Wednesday, Feb 13, 2008
Duration 29 minutes
Status Arrived 8 days ago (track log)
Proposed/Assigned Actual/Estimated
Departure 09:29AM HST 09:25AM HST
Arrival 10:06AM HST 09:54AM HST
Speed 416 kts
Altitude 21000 feet

Time Position Ground
speed Altitude
Eastern TZ Latitude Longitude kts Feet
02:25PM 21.32 -157.88 160 900
02:26PM 21.27 -157.85 220 3200
02:27PM 21.22 -157.80 250 5400
02:28PM 21.20 -157.72 270 7900
02:29PM 21.20 -157.65 280 10300
02:30PM 21.18 -157.55 310 11500
02:31PM 21.17 -157.45 330 12800
02:32PM 21.15 -157.35 350 14200
02:33PM 21.15 -157.25 360 15900
02:34PM 21.12 -157.15 370 16800
02:35PM 21.07 -157.05 390 17700
02:36PM 21.02 -156.93 390 18900
02:37PM 20.97 -156.83 390 19800
02:38PM 20.92 -156.73 400 21000
02:39PM 20.87 -156.62 410 21000
02:40PM 20.80 -156.50 440 21000
02:41PM 20.75 -156.38 440 21000
02:42PM 20.68 -156.27 440 21000
02:43PM 20.63 -156.15 450 21000
02:44PM 20.57 -156.03 450 21000
02:45PM 20.52 -155.92 450 21000
02:46PM 20.45 -155.80 440 21000
02:47PM 20.40 -155.68 450 21000
02:48PM 20.33 -155.57 450 21000
02:49PM 20.28 -155.45 450 21000
02:50PM 20.23 -155.35 450 21000
02:51PM 20.15 -155.22 450 21000
02:52PM 20.03 -155.15 460 21000
02:53PM 19.92 -155.10 460 21000
02:54PM 19.80 -155.05 450 21000
02:55PM 19.70 -155.00 460 21000
02:56PM 19.57 -154.93 460 21000
02:57PM 19.45 -154.87 460 21000
02:58PM 19.33 -154.82 450 21000
02:59PM 19.22 -154.75 450 21000
03:00PM 19.13 -154.67 440 20800
03:01PM 19.18 -154.57 390 21000
03:02PM 19.30 -154.58 400 21000
03:03PM 19.42 -154.60 400 21000
03:04PM 19.52 -154.60 390 18700
03:05PM 19.62 -154.62 360 13500
03:06PM 19.72 -154.63 350 8200
03:07PM 19.78 -154.70 330 3200
03:08PM 19.75 -154.78 290 1500
03:09PM 19.73 -154.85 220 1500
03:10PM 19.72 -154.90 200 1500
03:11PM 19.72 -154.97 190 900
03:12PM 19.72 -155.02 150 200

[JEP]

Wouldn't a communication failure be a more plausable cause ?

They were on vectoring for the destination, standing by for descend, and finally realizing, this can not be right.
Reselecting the right frequency, kicking the box or whatever, and then get in contact with ATC (again).

Lost comm is not that unusual.

[sevenstrokeroll]

Lost com...unlikely and if so, then why didn't they follow regs?

evidently transponder was working, no lost com squak?

[flown-it]

How about missed frequency change. We've all heard ATC trying to contact someone. I recall watching TOD disappear behind wondering why no clearance to descend. No answer from ATC so a check of the chart revealed we had missed a frequency change. We called on the correct frequency but were now way beyond normal TOD. We managed to persuade ATC to let us max rate descend as opposed to a hold to lose altitude!! Red faces but no harm ... no foul!!:*

[Mr.Brown]

If you fly your life might well be in the hands of air traffic controllers who have been up all night.. If you have to visit hospital with an emergency, you may be operated on by a doctor who has worked twice as hard as any pilot or controller..... There are plenty more people in the world who manage their working hours without being unduly fatigued - I did it for nigh on 40 years. It's just a matter of managing one's life appropriately.

This is all very true, but those jobs are much more exciting than a commercial pilots.
No disrespect to pilots, but having to adjust altitude, heading etc on an autopilot and changing radio frequency every now and then with the odd fuel calculation is not excatly edge of your seat stuff. So a bad nights sleep followed by an uneventful day in a flight deck will but most people to sleep.

I say if you feel tired in the flight deck, turn off the autopilot, that'll keep you awake for a while.:ok:

[leftseatview]

it would sure keep the pax awake!

[MungoP]

Not sure that simply switching off the a/p would have that much effect... cars don't have A/Ps and plenty of people fall asleep driving...many years back, my nights flying the Bandit ( no a/p) were plagued by fatigue... I'm someone who can't sleep a minute when travelling as SLF... whatever the time/length of trip, I'm awake... put me in front of those instruments and I begin to be hypnotised by the glow of the lights... lack of sleep..
On one occasion returning to 'Saafend' at the end of a sleepless week of night freight we arrived in the London TMA with totally cr@ap wx.. vis to mins...turbulence, icing the lot.. remember thinking "I'm going to have to stay awake for this" as we closed on the localiser.. remember thinking it again just as a hand slapped me on the shoulder as the F/O realised I was asleep !

I say again.. every bit as dangerous as alcohol and not nearly getting enough attention...

[sevenstrokeroll]

Mungop: You are quite right, and it is very possible to fall asleep while hand flying an airplane.

To leftseatview: if your hand flying would keep passengers awake, you better turn your autopilot off more often and practice hand flying.

I can imagine the new breed of regional pilot. Pay your money upfront and learn to fly, by 500 or 600 total hours you get hired at a regional airline. And they encourage you to use the autopilot.

So, for every hour you log, maybe 5 minutes is hand flying. And you never get good at it.

Mungop is quite right again, fatigue is not getting enough attention...and it will get some attention with the next fatigue crash.

[manrow]

if your hand flying would keep passengers awake, you better turn your autopilot off more often and practice hand flying

sevenstrokeroll, you must be joking!

A modern autopilot can achieve a smoother ride at altitude than even the most practiced pilot can ever achieve.

One of the biggest myths in aviation today is that we will lose our handling ability if we don't hand fly frequently. I use the autopilot extensively as monitoring its effectiveness is exactly the same as monitoring the other pilot's flying; my performance on check rides has not faltered as a result. Monitoring the autopilot function gives me more time to consider the options and in my experience has not contributed to fatigue a much as flying used to do when I had to hand-fly for hours on end!

[Huck]

One of the biggest myths in aviation today is that we will lose our handling ability if we don't hand fly frequently

Sir, you may be a naturally-talented sky-god, but I assure you that many pilots out there must practice or skills suffer. I see it all the time, and can point to the expensive consequences of such degradation of skills - including a few examples at my own airline. This horse has been beaten to death here before....

[RobertS975]

In the USA, it is not uncommon for pilots to "commute" many hundreds of miles to their pilot base. For example, I know for a fact that there are plenty of DL pilots who still live in the suburbs of Boston even though the BOS pilots base closed years ago.

A fellow I knew well used to leave his suburban Boston home around 1130AM, head for Boston Logan, take the 1230 or 130PM shuttle to LGA, taxi to JFK in time to captain the JFK-SVO flight leaving approximately 5 PM. After 9+ hours at the controls, there's the landing at SVO at what is about 2AM body time.

Mitigating factors were that there was an extra relief pilot on board, allowing the chance to catch some sleep, and the fact that he had to do this trip only 5 times a month or so.

My point is that at least in the US, many pilots are traveling many hours simply to get to their cockpit!

[Dan D'air]

Coincidentally, Air Crash Investigation on the National Geographic channel today was about China Air 006, when a fatigue induced error almost caused the loss of the aircraft. The 747 FE missed a check item and it all went horribly wrong............

Think it's on again later tonight. IMHO it's well worth a look.

[sevenstrokeroll]

manrow

I really have to agree with Huck on this one. If you don't practice, you won't be very good.

You indicate the superiority of the autopilot at altitude. I really wonder how well you would do at max op alt, with the autopilot off or out of service.

Maybe you would descend. Maybe you would be all over the sky. Or maybe you might hand fly to altitude, trim, set power/thrust and let go for a few seconds before engaging "george".

But as Huck said, the horse has been beaten to death before.

[411A]

Three FD crew should be the norm...

First Officer looks after navigation, makes required ratio calls, keeps the plog.
Flight Engineer sees to it that said First Officer stays awake to do the necessary.

Captain rests (snoozes).

F/O gets tired, Captain takes over and the F/O rests (snoozes).

F/E gets tired, Captain keeps an eye on the FE panel, and F/E rests (snoozes).

When all three are tired, the aeroplane is landed, which oddly enough, is normally at the scheduled destination.

When all three are fully awake, newspapers are read and Havana's are enjoyed.

Piece of cake.:}

[max_cont]

Except the tiny flaw with the suggestion that you turn off the A/P and hand fly, is that within RVSM airspace an A/P is required.

[ahramin]

Not that we know what caused this incident but

I find the doctor analogy quite appropriate actually. Many misdiagnoses and dead patients are the result of fatigued doctors. The difference is they kill them off one at a time rather than wholesale. And we are used to hearing about people expiring in hospitals.

[RobertS975]

And a doctor can often bury his mistakes...:rolleyes:

[Mister Geezer]

JAR OPS clearly states that controlled rest is allowed. An extract to that effect was actually removed from our Ops Manual a few years ago but crews must be totally comfortable that the regulator (UK CAA) recommends controlled rest to improve performance if required. It seems to be a bit of a taboo subject but it is normally management that are anti in-flight rest and of course - they never fly the line as much as the rest of us!

I have no hesitation in advising my F/O I may need a 'snooze' and I hope they would speak out if they were needing a 'snooze' as well! Providing it is done properly - it is no threat to safety!

[MungoP]

Providing it is done properly - it is no threat to safety!

Well... short of requesting an alarm call from ops....:confused:

I was tempted many times to agree to a suggestion from an F/O that maybe we could take turns having a 15 min nap but as we were usually both in the same state I could never be sure that the one staying awake would do so..

Some times it got so bad I'd pull out the POH and start a study session on the systems.. :(

[JW411]

With reference to the posting by MungoP:

In many, many years of flying longhaul with a crew of, at least, 3 on the flightdeck, I never had a problem.

On shorthaul flying at night, I have had two quite surprising events.

On the first one, the F/O (as PNF) called "Outer Marker" on finals. The next call should have been "500 feet" but it didn't come for he had "nodded-off"!

The second event was during an SID from a large European airfield at night. The F/O was PF and when the SID called for a 90° left turn and it didn't happen, I quickly discovered that he had nodded-off as well!

I have often wondered if some of our colleagues make as much use of rest time as they should do.

[CSilvera]

Did they have to scramble the military escorts or anything?

[Jump Complete]

I have nodded off when hand flying. I had taken a piston single for a 50 hour check first thing and sat on the near by beach for a few hours while it was done. Late afternoon, flying home with beautifully still air, aeroplane sitting there perfectly trimmed, I may not have been 'asleep' but was certainly not in the cockpit! I recognised my call sign and came to with a start! I think I was probably out of it for 5-10 minutes. I'd been working a fair bit previously and I think sitting in the sun wiped me out. Luckily not literately! I was only at 3000' and the aircraft was quite slippery; imagine waking up in a steep spiral dive with the last few hundred feet winding off the altimeter! Should have recongnised the potential problem before take off, I know, but everyone's perfect with hindsight...

[RoyHudd]

Hand-flying is much more tiring than performing the same tasks with A/P engaged. The reasons for installation of A/P or dual A/P's in an aircraft are many-fold, (safety, economy, ride quality to name a few), obvious to professional pilots, and clearly confusing to many others. A/P's are integral but not isolated parts of a much bigger picture of flight automation.

[sandbank]

Just wondered if it's not really fatigue but lack of oxygen and engine-sourced chemicals in the air? Maybe we should link these two threads.

[Huck]

I had a captain once who woke up and told me to quit reading.....

[TravelGeek]

http://starbulletin.com/2008/02/24/news/story02.html

Off-duty at 1447 the previous day. Back at the office at 0540 according to this report.

[relax.jet]

When I feel I`m tired I just ask my fellow copi if he is OK. If so, I just set an alarm for 20 min and I ask cabin crew to check the cockpit in 20 min too. It works… And I can say it`s much safer to be ready for approach and sleep during cruise than vice versa, isn`t it?

[RAT 5]

Flew long-haul under Italian FTL's. A killer. Knackering. A combat zzziz east bound was essential. Trouble was the seats did not recline enough and there was no head rest. An air cushion round your neck helped a little, but you still had to slump down in the seat. That left a gap under your lower back. Wake up brain refeshed but back & neck as stiff as a Sunday-best dog collar. For
U$185m I'd expect better seats for the drivers. Truck drivers who spend 4 hours strapped to them have better saddles. Even economy seats are better than the flight deck. For all the work the various union technical committes and manufacturers have done to improve a/c realibility, why oh why not do such a simple thing to help improve the realibility of the weakest link? I heard from one charter airline employer I had that there were 2 class of seats available. Guess what? We got the cheaper version. No surprise there. Why are there 2 versions? There should be only 1st class for the sharp end jockies.

[jfill]

From the latest reports, seems the crew had plenty of time for adequate rest between duty shifts. Not sure you can really regulate how they spent that time.

I can image a warm sun, good weather, and perfectly controlled temperature would help ease a lot of people into a nap! Always admired how the long haul crews remain alert during those endless hours of flight.

People vary greatly in their susceptibility to a lack of stimulation. Some people drop off to sleep easily, others remain alert and have difficulty going to sleep even when its time to do so.

Seems the challenge is to develop a system that gives the right amount of stimulation to keep you alert but not in itself cause fatigue. This is no easy task.

I also wonder if the military has any helpful tactics to deal with fatigue on their very long range missions.

On a side note, I have seen many doctors go without sleep for 24 hours and still be a much better doctor than some well rested type of lesser ability and skill. Have also seen doctors (usually the assistant surgeon) go to sleep in surgery even standing up due to extreme fatigue. You certainly don't won't that situation in the cockpit.

[arba]

hope it goes with the thread, so what is maximum duty-time ? On our general ops. manual stated 14 hours. But "they" said we can go up to 16 hours and the 14-hours is the max. planned duty-time (?).

anybody can refer me to the regulation (FAR) ?

thanks,

[Brian Abraham]

From Aviation International News today

NTSB Tired of FAA’s Inaction on Pilot Fatigue
The NTSB has called the FAA’s response “unacceptable” to four out of six safety recommendations addressing human fatigue and duty-time limitations. The agency issued the report to coincide with National Sleep Awareness Week. “The Safety Board is very concerned about reducing accidents and incidents caused by human fatigue,” NTSB chairman Mark Rosenker said, adding that fatigue was a probable cause or contributing factor in “numerous” accidents. The recommendations include requiring training, check flights, ferry and repositioning flights to be included in a pilot’s total revenue time; ensuring that flight and duty time limitations take into consideration research findings in fatigue and sleep issues; reviewing the issue of personnel fatigue in aviation maintenance; and taking into consideration the length of a duty day, starting time and workload when assigning flight crew hours. The FAA has not to date altered a 2001 Federal Register notice that calls for eight hours of rest in any 24-hour period that includes flight time. An FAA spokesman told AIN, “We believe the rules and guidance we have in place are fundamentally sound.”

Report mentioned can be found here
http://ntsb.gov/Recs/mostwanted/aviation_reduce_acc_inc_humanfatig.htm

[Pugilistic Animus]

RobertS975 wrote: "And a doctor can often bury his mistakes...:rolleyes:"

We pilots can sure bury our mistakes too---:E

[Mikeyfive9]

take a look at this one: http://iagblog.podomatic.com/entry/2008-03-05T14_21_48-08_00

includes interviews with pilots - apparently the first of a two part series on pilot fatigue.

[TACHO]

IMHO there is possibly another dimension which can be added to the conversation. Primarily if a doctor is feeling fatigued (not tired) he can quite easily step out of the room, possibly mention it to someone, ask to be replaced at that particular moment in time. Once you are airborne, you are committed to completing the task in hand. There is no option to remove yourself from the loop as it were.


The suggestions made about turning the autopilot off to wake up are frankly, well... ludacrous. Aside from the RVSM implications made, correctly, further up the page. People nod off all the time when driving, and if subject to too much fatigue, whenever and wherever they happen to be. To increase your workload at a time when your brain and body are telling you that it can't process much more information is asking for trouble.


With regards to managing your rest, again its a nice idea. But there are always external factors, that could prevent you from getting the required rest. Working a month of late nights and then having to condition your body to wake up at 04:00am for your first early is very hard work. Many people I fly with will readily admit that the amount of rest gained before the first early can be written off as they are pretty much resigned to the fact that they will be knackered in any case. I know on the eve of my first early flights I tend to lie there for 3-4 hours sometimes watching the clock tick round to my report time.


By categorising fatigue as an improper management of ones rest period, which sounds slightly rich to be honest, considering we don't get a break every 30 mins, the situation certainly won't get any better.

Rgds.

T

[MungoP]

FAA “We believe the rules and guidance we have in place are fundamentally sound.”

Something that the FAA and UK CAA have in common is their astounding arrogance when replying to criticism... notable when having been included in some accident report as having inadequate training stds or whatever and responding with .. "we don't accept the findings etc.."

Problem will remain as long as the regulating authorities maintain a too close relationship with the majors and identify too closely with their interests.. (old boy)

[MungoP]

and just one further thought...

If a flightcrew member was found to be unable to concentrate and was desperately trying (and failing) to stay awake and this condition was discovered as being due to alcohol abuse..

1) roughly how much alcohol would have to be consumed to create that condition in an average weight man and

2) what penalties would he be likely to suffer having been convicted in court of presenting himself in the cockpit in that state ?

[MaxBlow]

#50 by Huck,

I had a captain once who woke up and told me to quit reading.....:E

lol, must have been a management pilot as they always find someone else to blame.

[Thunderguts]

Far East airline during Puasa/Ramadan/Muslim Fast.

The local first officer observing the fast, was asleep before top of climb out of Singapore, and remained that way until I woke him up in the descent into Dubai!

So it is not just poor rostering to blame, consideration must be given to local customs and beliefs.

[Mikeyfive9]

IAG, the site that did the first pilot fatigue podcast has now put out a part 2.

http://iagblog.podomatic.com/entry/eg/2008-03-13T13_10_30-07_00

This one has a "sleep expert" who explains what can be done - and an "unknown analyst" who say the FAA does not have any rules about pilots and fatigue.

Imagine that - rules and drinking and drugs which have the the same impact on decision making as fatigue. But nothing on fatigue.

I suppose pilots simply don't get fatigued - right?

[freightdog]

I haven´t read the entire tread, but I know that the industry are pushing our limits in their neverending quest for money.

If I work five days i a row, starting with a wake up call at 4:00 AM, I am pretty useless the last two days, and I am not alone according to my fellow pilots. Also after a long day with only two legs, but at almost 6 hours each, I am too close to my limit during the last few hours, especially during the winter when we run into low braking action and/or snow clearance at our final destination. It is insane, but the money boys don´t give a ****.

In the beginning of my career I flew commuter airplanes in the US. I flew up to 15 legs per day, and boy did we sleep. It was also insane, and luck is what saved us from major trouble. The company didn´t care. Airlines tends to see the governing rules as a limit, not a guideline where common sense should be applied when the schedules are made.

Now with the age 60 thing happening, it is not about to get better. Many 60 year old pilots are fine, but there are certainly those who should retire, in stead of sitting trough long legs drooling on their tie for hours. Don´t they sometime wonder why their ties are so wet after work?

In the end it is up to us and our unions. We are the idiots who will do anything just to fly.....like little boys. We run off and buy typeratings, pay for training, accept pay cuts, worse conditions, just to get to fly. Hell, I have even heard of idiots willing to pay for their own uniforms........idiots!

[Eboy]

The subject of the first post on this thread . . .

Two pilots for Hawaii's Go airlines who overshot a runway by 15 miles while trying to land on the state's Big Island have been fired.

Mesa Air Group confirmed Thursday that it fired the pilots but won't identify them. Go is an inter-island carrier run by Mesa.

Investigators say they were looking into whether the pilots had fallen asleep when the plane carrying 40 passengers drifted off course during a Feb. 13 flight from Honolulu to Hilo. Air traffic controllers were unable to contact the cockpit for 25 minutes.

The plane landed safely in Hilo.


http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hScnIpuXne0-kmWdvqEoMtY1c0CgD908F2RG0

[amf1966]

Felt the report linked to would be of interest, and generate some debate...
http://kgmb9.com/main/content/view/5870/169/

[Farmer 1]

the pilots admitted dozing off in interviews with National Transportation Safety Board investigators.

I've had interviews like that.

[airfoilmod]

I'm sayin, Uh, "Wasn't that Tower? Swear I heard 'em say extend downwind, report Santiago"

[ceedee]

Me too.

Would you like fries with that?
:*

[Robert Campbell]

"Sources say the captain, a 16 year veteran, also confessed he has fallen asleep in mid-air before."

I've been wondering about this for over 46 years. Where is "mid-air"?

[carlstraub]

Mid- air is hard to define. Best is probably "When chin contacts chest"
C

[Robert Campbell]

A lot of things happen "mid-air". Crews fall asleep, airplanes run into each other.

I just want to know where it is so I can avoid it.

[amber 1]

A lot of things happen "mid-air". Crews fall asleep, airplanes run into each other.

I just want to know where it is so I can avoid it.

Fell asleep over the GAFA recently. Maybe that's where it is.

[pattern_is_full]

Anywhere between the hard lumpy stuff, and where it runs out altogether.

If the two converge - that is known as "The other coffin corner"

As this cockpit duo no doubt expressed to each other afterwards:

Isn't it rich?
Are we a pair?
Me here at last on the ground,
You in mid-air.
Send in the clowns.

(Stephen Sondheim/Joni Mitchel et al..)

[Bigmouth]

Basic Flying Rules
1. Try to stay in the middle of the air.
2. Do not go near the edges of it.
3. The edges of the air can be recognized by the appearance of ground, buildings, sea, trees and interstellar space. It is much more difficult to fly there.

[Mach trim]

Most of the fatigue research has been on long haul not so much on short haul.

I feel there is a fatique associated with many sectors doing 4 sectors a day

I call it multi-sector fatigue, as said your fifth morning getting up at 4am having your ciracadian rythms disprupted adds up.

I spend a good part of my first day off resting


Changing from working nights and flying


Disrupting your bodies circadian rythms and SCN causes your body damage, even disgestive problems

[Airbubba]

September 23, 2008

FAA suspends sleeping Hawaiian airline pilots

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 11:26 p.m. ET

HONOLULU (AP) -- Two pilots for Hawaii's Go airlines who slept through their flight's landing procedure were suspended for the careless and reckless operation of an aircraft, the Federal Aviation Administration said Tuesday.

The pilots, who have been fired by Go, completed their suspensions on Sept. 9, FAA spokesman Ian Gregor said. He did not know whether they are flying again with a different carrier.

Captain Scott Oltman, 54, who was also cited for failing to maintain radio communications, had his license suspended for 60 days. First Officer Dillon Shepley, 24, was suspended for 45 days.

Gregor said no action was taken against Go because it did nothing wrong and provided the pilots with a 15-hour break before their shift, nearly double what the FAA requires.

The National Transportation Safety Board had determined the two pilots fell asleep on the Feb. 13 flight from Honolulu to Hilo.

Oltman was later diagnosed with a severe obstructive sleep apnea. It causes people to stop breathing repeatedly, preventing a restful night of sleep.

However, it was still unclear how both pilots fell asleep on the brief midmorning flight, which was carrying 40 passengers.

No problems were found after examining the aircraft's pressurization system and carbon monoxide levels.

The pilots failed to respond to nearly a dozen calls from air traffic controllers over a span of 17 minutes...

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Sleeping-Pilots.html

[Loose rivets]

Pilot fatigue has been a growing concern among safety advocates.

Since Wilbur shouted..."Wake the :mad: up, Orville."

Nothing has changed. Nothing...since we hid our girl behind the radio rack of a DC3. She had slithered down all the jagged bits because it was the third day we had done 16 hours, and she worked the hardest. 40 odd, people on that aircraft, somewhere north of Jersey.

I used to unplug my captain's headset and give the Shhhhh signal to our girls, so that he could get a decent kip. "Don't you land it...don't you land it" He would keep saying, as he got his pillow out of his flight bag.

As a young f/o I loved it, but I couldn't extrapolate this to my life a few years later. In recent years, I stepped onto a colleague's aircraft in the middle of the night. There were so many corrections in the tech log that the page was soggy with biro. 'I'm soooooooo tired.' he kept saying.

The solution isn't another :mad: committee, it's a total re-think to how we operate aircraft making use of human beings. Man and machine...nope, second thoughts, never going to work. Lateral thinking needed here. I had more protection in my Essex home from human fatigue / failure, than the average passenger carrying jet transport. Let's start making the flight-deck monitor the crews every bit as much as the engines...if not more so.

[autobrake3]

Use the pilots as scapegoats and fire them. A great contribution to the furtherment of flight safety. Well done.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Use the pilots as scapegoats and fire them. A great contribution to the furtherment of flight safety. Well done.


Yep that's what they do...becuase the airlines and the FAA are codependent lovers:mad:---yes I know Sturegells little raid but it 'don't change nuthin' the FAA goes ---does the public care-no they all thing pilots are idiot but the pilots's always go down with the ship so knowing that would you just go to sleep if you weren't fatigued:ugh:

BTW it aint that easy {injunir}:}:=

if you are tired and fly and have an incident you are [according to the FAA] careless and reckless as you should have canceled and not doing so is irresponsibilty--but if you cancel a flight due to fatigue you are irresponsible and a problem maker---:*:(

[Pace]

Okay Not a airline pilot merely a light business jet one but there is another factor that needs to be taken into consideration and which may or may not give another reason for pilots nodding off.

A few years ago I was flying a Seneca Twin at FL100 single pilot with the non pilot owner in the right seat.
The aircraft was on autopilot in nav mode. I was very aware of the droning of the engines which became almost hypnotic like and found that I was finding it very hard to stop my eyelids flickering next thing I knew was a sharp dig in the ribs as the owner thought I had died or something.

How much research has been done on whether it is pilots falling asleep due to fatigue or design faults out of their control ie sounds or flashing lights which have hypnotic effects on the pilots. Or even light effects on clouds or sea surfaces pulsing city lights at night etc?

Finally contamination in the cabin from contaminated air? It may be interesting to read this report as even low levels can cause extreme fatigue

USATODAY.com - Travel - News - Verdict expected soon on toxic air aboard jets (http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2002/2002-05-09-cabin-air.htm)

I am sure that sounds and lights at certain frequencies can have an effect and as such should absolve the pilots from guilt?

Pace

[PJ2]

I haven't seen it discussed yet so will introduce the notion of Controlled Rest on the Flight Deck. It's in the Canadian Aviation Regulations as a legitimate technique to address fatigue. It isn't intended to replace Flight Time and Duty Day regulations although Canada's regulations were ATAC-driven at the time - a Part VII (airline, commercial ops) 3-pilot crew with an "SAE specified" bunk can remain on duty legally, for 23 hours, the "3" being "unforseen circumstances" for which there has yet to be a definition in the CARS.

The basic notion of controlled rest is to recognize that fatigue does not know about rules, and accepts that rest periods may be less than optimum from a human factors point of view.

There are obviously conditions and SOPs which govern Controlled Rest such as the presence either of someone from the cabin in a two-pilot operation or a means of frequent checking if a single crew member is all the cabin has, (small ops).

The industry has used 'controlled rest' unofficially for decades but it's now recognized legally in Canada. Falling asleep in the cockpit happens far more frequently than anyone with the regulator or in any airline management position will acknowledge or even know about. I've used controlled rest techniques many times for my crew on Vancouver-Sydney (via Honolulu with a day's stop) and other routes typically Hong Kong, Tokyo - Vancouver/Toronto. "Pushing back the seat" and taking twenty minutes to 'check out the overhead panel', (maximum fourty minutes or so, so that REM sleep is not entered with it's resulting grogginess), works extremely well in my experience but is not without it's controversies. The F/A's sometimes resent the monitoring duties, saying "they dont' get any break, why should we?", etc but that ignorance aside 99% of the time it works well.

Pilots' unions or representative groups where there are no unions, must trade negotiating dollars for working conditions that truly ought to be supported by appropriate regulations but that battle is as old as our oldest airlines - 1929, on!

Anyway, for what it's worth...anyone else use the technique? Is it effective for you? Remember, it isn't a substitute for the larger human factors issues and required regulatory support.

PJ2

[Go Around]

Heathrow Director, whilst I have the utmost respect for you and your colleagues having flown into Heathrow many times over my 25 year career, things have changed in the aviation world. I guess you are too out of the loop or had a career where you only had the best of things.
Try rarely sleeping in your own bed ;) a noisy hotel, trying to sleep during the day, throw in a body clock that has lost the plot, meals at odd times and then a long flight overnight in a warm cockpit with lulling white noise whilst heading east towards a bright light that is painful to look at.....just close your eyes, just for a second...just to rest them....whoah..where's that snoring noise coming from.....?

[mona lot]

Unfortunately there are still some dinosaur Captains out there who think it is better to continue flying when fatigued rather than taking controlled rest. I remember when an FO, having already flown a mixture of lates/earlies with minimum rest asked the Captain if they could take controlled rest during a quiet period of the flight and was severely reprimanded. The Captain said they were not paid to sleep during Company time!

If someone is suffering from fatigue they should be encouraged to tell other crew members and not feel pressured to hide it in order to toe the company bull**** line.

Whilst I strongly believe no one should ever report for duty when fatigued, there is no excuse for this type of behaviour.

Also in our company FTL manual, we are told if we cannot achieve adequate rest we should consult our AME, what is that supposed to mean, no Class 1 medical??:confused::confused: Horse****!!:\

[Dream Buster]

Pace,

Dead right about contaminated air.

Finally contamination in the cabin from contaminated air? It may be interesting to read this report as even low levels can cause extreme fatigue

The article you quoted was 2002 but contaminated air has been around for many years and will be until everybody finally agrees to:



filter bleed air.



remove organo phosphates from engine oil (OP's generally banned in agriculture).


adopt B 787 'Bleed free architecture'.
Try Aerotoxic Association (http://www.aerotoxic.org/)for more inconvenient facts about the reason for your chronic fatigue and other mysterious neurological symptoms.

This is not rocket science and is probably one of the the worst kept secrets in aviation.

DB :ok:

[Platinum206]

This is the headline from the Original Article, NOT my headline!!!

Pilots sleep through landing procedure

Two pilots who slept through their plane's landing procedure despite repeated radio calls from air traffic controllers were fired by their airline and temporarily suspended from flying.


Captain Scott Oltman, 54, and First Officer Dillon Shepley, 24, dozed off during the brief midmorning flight from Honolulu to Hilo, on Hawaii.

The Federal Aviation Administration suspended the men for the careless and reckless operation of an aircraft. Both were fired by Hawaii's Go airlines, operator of the February 13 flight which was carrying 40 passengers.

Mr Oltman was also cited for failing to maintain radio communications and banned from flying for 60 days. Mr Shepley had his flying licence suspended for 45 days. Both completed their suspensions earlier this month but an FAA spokesman said he did not know if they were flying again with a different airline.

The men had been given a 15 hour break before their shift, nearly double the FAA minimum. Mr Oltman was later diagnosed with a severe obstructive sleep apnea, a sleep disorder which can lead to extreme fatigue.

An investigation found no obvious explanation for why both men fell asleep. There were no problems with the aircraft's pressurisation system or carbon monoxide levels.

Over a period of 17 minutes, air traffic controllers made nearly a dozen unanswered calls to the men.

In recordings obtained by The Associated Press, the controller is heard repeatedly trying to contact the pilots and speaking to the pilot of another Go flight.

"I'm worried he might be in an emergency situation," the controller says.

Radio contact was finally established 44 minutes into what is usually a 45-minute flight. By this time, the plane had overshot Hilo airport by 15 miles. The flight crew was ordered to return and landed safely.


Source: Pilots sleep through landing procedure - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/3074870/Pilots-sleep-through-landing-procedure.html)

[tonker]

Just finishing a week of night freight and getting used to getting to bed at 4am.

Monday morning you guessed it, a 4 sector DAY beggining at .......4am!!!!!!

[rmiller774]

Thunderguts - Would you do that again? Sure let him have a 15 minute nap but is it safe for us passengers to let him sleep the entire trip? I would hope that there were two pilots paying attention to their jobs up front on flights that I am on.. That's no funny story to me.

[rmiller774]

Furthermore: The more I read these reports of sleeping and sleepy pilots, the more I think that rather than to exclude persons from the jump seat on the flight deck, acceptable persons such as an FA should be encouraged or maybe required to occupy the jump seat as often as their duties permit. Wouldn't this practice promote safety?

[FlyMike]

@PJ2:


'..."unforseen circumstances" for which there has yet to be a definition in the CARS'

Actually, if you check CAR 101.01 (the CARs list of definitions) I think you'll find that a reference has been added since last year.

Canadian Aviation Regulations, Part I, Subpart 1 - Interpretation (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/PART1/Subpart1.htm)

TC defines it (rather loosely, perhaps) as follows: ' "unforeseen operational circumstance" means an event, such as unforecast adverse weather, or an equipment malfunction or air traffic control delay, that is beyond the control of an air operator or private operator; (circonstance opérationnelle imprévue)'

I realise controlled rest on the f/d isn't specifically relevant to this case, though it does address the wider issue of fatigue. Are there many other countries that allow operators to implement such a program?

[First post so apologies if the links/quotes don't function]

[beamender99]

Todays (complete) item in the UK Daily Telegraph in the corner of the world news



Sleeping pilots

Two pilots for Hawaii's Go airlines have been suspended for sleeping through the landing of a passenger plane between Honolulu and Hilo


I wonder what a reader who has not seen the previous fuller reports thinks of the above item?

I knew autoland was good but..

[visibility3miles]

Try rarely sleeping in your own bed a noisy hotel, trying to sleep during the day, throw in a body clock that has lost the plot, meals at odd times and then a long flight overnight in a warm cockpit with lulling white noise whilst heading east towards a bright light that is painful to look at.....just close your eyes, just for a second...just to rest them....whoah..where's that snoring noise coming from.....?

While these may be problems for many airline pilots, I doubt this is the case for pilots flying on Hawaii's Go Airlines. It uses Honolulu as its hub, and only flies between Hawaiian Islands. They don't schedule flights 24/7. I assume these pilots sleep at home every night.
Hawaiian Airline Route Map- Maps Of Hawaii Islands (http://www.iflygo.com/goRouteMap.aspx)

The Honolulu to Hilo flight about as far an inter-island flight you can make in Hawaii. It was a 45 minute flight, so it is surprising that both pilots fell asleep, and that the flight attendants didn't notice the Big Island passing by.

Sleep apnea is a serious problem and can make people doze off unexpectedly. I am glad the pilot is aware of it now. I hope he starts using a CPAP device to avoid it, as sleep apnea can cause other medical problems by cutting off oxygen.

[TerminalTrotter]

Forty years ago I was a watchkeeping Radio Officer in the Merchant Navy. My firm never had a set route and consequently trips could be from three days to three months. It always took me about two weeks to settle into the watchkeeping routine (4 hours on, 8 hours off) and only a couple of days in port would mean the whole routine was lost and another two weeks to settle into the pattern again. I was pretty well totally knackered while in the settling in period. How pilots cope so well with the system (system?) they put up with amazes me almost as much as it worries me. things happen a lot slower at sea, and in the end, the ship will usually float on its own while you wake up.

[McGinty]

The BBC has reported that the two pilots have been reinstated:--

Snoozing pilots to return to work

Two commercial airline pilots who fell asleep in the cockpit and overshot their landing by 15 miles have been cleared to return to work.

Earlier this year, the Go! flight from Honolulu to Hilo cruised over its landing target at 21,000 feet.

Alarmed air traffic controllers tried to contact the cockpit a dozen times but got no response for 17 minutes.

The pilots were subsequently fired, but suspensions issued by the US aviation watchdog have now been served.

Officials feared for the safety of the 40 passengers on board when they got no response from the Hawaiian carrier's short-haul Flight 1002 on 13 February.

Some 44 minutes into what should have been a 45-minute flight, contact was finally established and the plane was ordered to return to land.

Sleep disorder

The US National Transportation Safety Board ruled in June that both pilots "unintentionally fell asleep".

Captain Scott Oltman was suspended for 60 days by the the US Federal Aviation Authority (FAA) for careless and reckless operation of an aircraft and for failing to maintain radio communications.

The FAA suspended First Officer Dillon Shepley for 45 days for careless and reckless operation of a plane.

Both suspensions were completed on 9 September, the FAA said.

After February's incident, Mr Oltman was diagnosed with "severe obstructive sleep apnea" which causes people to stop breathing repeatedly in their sleep, preventing a restful night.

No action was taken against the carrier because it was deemed to have acted within guidelines and had offered the two pilots sufficient rest-time between flights.

Story from BBC NEWS:
BBC NEWS | World | Americas | Snoozing pilots to return to work (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/americas/7635169.stm)

[WorkingClassZero]

As an Engineer working in the sleep medicine industry, I am surprised that screening for sleep apnea is not part of a pilot's normal medical exam. There are screening programs run by my company that have been taken up by various corporations for their executives, and trucking companies for their drivers, so if they can do it, I'm sure airlines can.

[Pinkman]

Fatigue is a massive problem in the oil & gas industry as well. Last year I commissioned a sleep / fatigue specialist and a human factors specialist to help us write a document for the industry and you can download a copy gratis at

IPIECA (http://www.ipieca.org/activities/health/health_publications.php#5)

Interestingly, the consultants we hired had just completed a program for EZY which included reviews of rostering and scheduling. EZY gave permission for them to brief us on the program and I have to say that I was seriously impressed - EZY went up a lot in my estimation.

Pinkman

[merlinxx]

Fatigue is a problem in all areas of transportation, production, law enforcement & armed services where a (in theory) a 30 hr day exists. In my past there has been the situation (very early 70s and overseas) of 70+ hr duty (operational management not flying) with only snatched 60 min naps. Yes excessive, but we had to keep the operation going, the attitude was the Spanish, French & Greek ATCOs who were on strike, were not gonna stop us flying!

Whether it is 12 or 8 hr shifts, the switch from days to nights or from lates to earlies (8 hr T/R incorporating the commute) leaves folks fatigued, this is accumulative, and insidious in it's effects on qualitative output.

[aviationdoc]

I think you would find that having sleep apnoea would lead to loss of licence.
Even with cpap one can have symptoms

[Airbus Girl]

And the main problem with fatigue is that it is very hard to recognise it in yourself, thus people reporting for duty fatigued. And what if you start the duty feeling OK and then fatigue hits you part way through a double night sector? Do you go to the nearest airport, land and call the company to tell them you are not continuing because you are fatigued? I don't think so!!!

I have had countless days/ nights in hotels where I have been woken up by reception/ fire alarm practice/ actual fire alarms/ cleaners etc. despite having posted the "do not disturb" notices. If I am in a hotel it is usually because there is no-one at base to do the flight. Therefore I know if I call in fatigued someone else will get called out, and they won't have had sufficient rest.

And how we are magically meant to switch from an early to a night or vice versa (albeit with usually a day or so in between), and be 100% rested I have yet to discover. I sleep well but sometimes it really is impossible to get a "proper" amount of sleep prior to every duty, due to the way it is rostered (and an attempt to have a life, albeit even with early nights, on your days off).

And there is still a stigma attached to calling in fatigued for duty if you don't manage to sleep well (even if its not your fault).

[aviationdoc]

These are rarely prepared by staff who take into consideration the research that shows if you have been working nights the next pattern should be a late shift <after a suitable break of course!> and after this a group of early shifts.
The body is not designed to move from a night shift to an early shift -without giving rise to errors.
Also the error rate increase after the shift is longer than 10 hours.
Some Airlines look down on personnel who regularly report in sick.
Hey-but whats new!

[AMEandPPL]

fatigue and duty roosters

Presumably they crow to wake you up if you fall asleep . . . . . . . . . !

[A11]

A humble SLF/PPL here but a very freq. long-haul traveller.

Travelling LH pretty much every week I sympathise with you guys totally.
I have most of my weekends wrecked for trying to re-adjust my rythms and sure as hell wouldn't be doing anything too demanding then.

But at least we got our weekends and we even get to sleep legitimately on the flights too.
I, and I'm certain every single flyer, would be willing to pay the extra bit to make sure people are allowed to perform their work in the responsible manner that they would want. Rather than being dragged around in a semi-defunct state and ordered to work.

OK, so the trouble is that the companies would never advocate for something like this (turkeys, voting for Xmas). But why can't authorities see the point and after all; a blanket imposition wouldn't distort competition and surely in light of all the other costs pilots' rest will be marginal enough NOT to affect the industry as a whole.

And as for the posters who are against 'power naps', using them regularly at work helps to keep me going much better. I'd rather 1 officer was out of service for a short period (not much longer than what some business travellers spend in their toilet visits) and to return in shape for a good 2-3hrs than have a person struggling with fatigue desperately trying to keep their eyelids open.

Sorry for the long ramble

[Airbus Girl]

A11 unfortunately most people are not as enlightened as you! Most passengers want the cheapest seat they can get. Most airlines want to maximise profit. The CAA/ government gets rather a lot of money from airlines. So airlines get to call the shots. Because every aircraft accident that has had fatigue mentioned has also had some other factor, so fatigue is always just an "additional" factor, never the main factor.

There have been various reports done highlighting the problems of fatigue and fatiguing rosters, but the CAA stands by its "CAP371 is the bible, its been fine up until now therefore why change it" enlightened view.

In my opinion, it is unlikely for fatigue to be named as the major cause of an accident, therefore the flight time limitations won't ever be changed.

Most pilots will be extremely tired, if not fatigued, when operating a heavy schedule with numerous changes of report time and all night flights, it has become the norm.

I really don't see anything changing in the forseeable future.

[A11]

You're right A-Girl.

But, mind you, I surely look for cheap deals like everyone else. But just as some costs are built-in and we all pay for today (spares, rotations, maintenance etc.) the same could be done with more generous rest provisions.
If decent rest schedules were built-in; all of us could continue the bargain-hunting, safe in the knowledge that whatever we pay will have adequate provisions for the people whom we entrust our safety in.
The whole point of regulating these provisions, in, is to avoid unfair advantages and ensure a level playing field.

You'd think that all those big blue signs on the motorway warning "tiredness can kill - take a break" wouldn't go unheeded.

Where's common sense when we most need it?
P.S. [Pedantic Mode On] Just which scientific, controlled studies of fatigue and sleep deprivation have they based their document on?? Are they recent? Peer reviewed?[Pedantic Mode Off]

[Moonraker One]

A11

Try this link http://docserver.ingentaconnect.com/deliver/connect/asma/00956562/v78n7/s9.pdf?expires=1222881578&id=46205035&titleid=8218&accname=Guest+User&checksum=4429E9C49A39C2783F399875A0121FB2 :ok: http://propilotnews.com/2008/06/ntsb-pinnacle-airlines-pilots-poor.html:sad:

[PAXboy]

Another SLF speaking. A11, the problem with trying to get EVERYONE to change the rules together - so that everyone benefits is that ... You have to get EVERYONE to change their mind at the same time and they (the carriers) all think that there are no benefits for them!

As Airbus Girl has said, the UK's CAA are run by politicians for the benefit of big business - and almost every other country has the same system! (I say 'almost' as I want to leave a get out for my lawyers :ouch:) Until fatigue is shown to be the prime cause of several prangs - nothing will happen. I say that because the only things that changes politicians and big business is money (and hull losses + deaths = £/$)

It is the same reason why the flight time rules will not be applied to corporate pilots. UNLESS a corporate pilot has the ability to nail a 744 - over London - and live to prove that they were fatigued. Sorry if that humour is too dark, but that is what it would take. Even then, the corporate employer's lawyers would 'prove' that the pilot was negligent about not taking themself off duty. :rolleyes:

[rmiller774]

It is unrealistic to conclude that by simply adding more "rest" hours between flights that the problem of "fatigue" would be eliminated or even reduced. The company cannot control how those extra hours would be spent by crew members. The company cannot impose a lights- out curfew on a crew member. I expect that most crew members would enjoy the extra hours but would continue to play it close as they do today and that there would be no reduction of the incidents of so-called "fatigue." Self-discipline is what is required.

[Airbus Girl]

"rmiller774: I expect that most crew members would enjoy the extra hours but would continue to play it close as they do today"

With all respect, I don't agree. After 9/11, my employer threw out all FTL protection bar the minimum CAA legal CAP371. We found ourselves working like crazy, 7 days on, 2 days off, with plenty of minimum rest, nights, earlies, changes to schedules, call-outs from standby etc. Redundancies were made and those of us left were working flat out. The increase in the number of minor errors everyone was making was very noticeable. Pilots are generally a professional bunch, and they realise that it is their lives as well as the passengers that they are responsible for when on duty and as such, most pilots are careful to have enough rest.

The problem is not the pilots not making use of their rest periods, it is the fact that human beings cannot chop and change their sleep patterns from day to day just because their roster says so. Here is an example. If my first flight is an early (going to bed at 7pm to get up at 3am), then I have to suddenly tell my bodyclock to be ready to sleep at 7pm instead of my usual 11pm. I probably won't hit the pillow and sleep at 7pm, not because I am "playing things close (to the limit)" but because I am a human being. I get back from my flight at 3pm, home by 5pm, then the following day I have to do a night flight. So what should I do? In theory I should be getting 8-10 hours a night of sleep. Last night I didn't manage it due to the early start. I probably slept from 10pm until 3am. So already I am in sleep deficit. When I get home from the early duty I am really tired and go to bed at 10pm. I wake up at 8am, because that is when my bodyclock says I should. I have to leave for work at 5pm to drive through rush hour for a 7pm report. So I have to be up at 4pm. So ideally I should now go back to bed and sleep from 8am until 4pm. Perfect!!! Except my body doesn't work like that. It is now awake, yet my roster tells me that what I need to do is go back to sleep for another 8 hours in order to be fully rested for my night flight. Most likely is I manage a couple of hours in the afternoon and go to work, feeling fine until about 1am, when I feel really tired. I then have to fight the urge to sleep until I get back. I land at 7pm, drive through rush hour and go to bed around 9am.

rmiller774 I would welcome your suggestions as to how to cope with changing schedules. I've tried for 10 years and I still find myself tired on night flights and early mornings......

[rmiller774]

I have no useful suggestions regarding the schedule you are burdened with. It seems impossible that anyone could successfully perform such a schedule. "Hectic" should be in here somewhere. My simplistic comments shouldn't be and weren't directed toward persons such as yourself. I hope that you can continue to cope somehow and I wish you well. Regards, RMiller

[mona lot]

Where I work (hopefully for not much longer), if we report fatigued when given a change of duty we are met with the stock answer from crewing "but it is legal". I think they are missing the point:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: FTLs are a limit NOT to be exceeded and not a target to be met!!

We are still stuck in the dark ages, reporting fatigued will still get you a black mark against your name.

[AMEandPPL]

FTLs are a limit not to be exceeded, not a target to be met

Could not agree more . . . . . . and the same applies to speed limits on the roads ! If you see a sign with a "40" in a red circle, it does NOT mean you have to drive at 40 mph, as some seem to think !

[Basil-Fawlty]

Apnea, early starts blamed in Hawaii pilots' nap :zzz::zzz::zzz:
Story Highlights

The crew of a commuter jet fell asleep during a flight over Hawaii in 2008
Federal investigators cite sleep apnea, string of early mornings as causes
Pilot, co-pilot of a Go! Airlines jet awoke to find they overshot destination
Sleep apnea is a disorder that can cause chronic daytime fatigue August 4, 2009 --
(CNN) -- A pilot's sleep disorder and a string of early mornings helped cause the crew of a commuter jet to fall asleep during a flight over Hawaii in 2008, federal investigators reported Monday.
The pilot and co-pilot of a Go! Airlines jet failed to respond to calls from air traffic controllers for 18 minutes during the February 2008 flight from Honolulu to Hilo and awoke to find they had overshot their destination by about 30 miles, the National Transportation Safety Board reported. The plane landed safely once the pilots awoke and resumed contact with controllers.
The 53-year-old pilot was later diagnosed with obstructive sleep apnea (http://topics.edition.cnn.com/topics/sleep_apnea), which can cause daytime sleepiness.:zzz:
"This condition likely caused him to experience chronic daytime fatigue and contributed to his falling asleep during the incident flight," according to the NTSB's report on the probable cause of the incident.
"In addition, the day of the incident was the third consecutive day that both pilots started duty at 0540 (5:40 a.m.)," the report continued. "This likely caused the pilots to receive less daily sleep than is needed to sustain optimal alertness and resulted in an accumulation of sleep debt and increased levels of daytime fatigue."
Go! is a subsidiary of Phoenix, Arizona-based Mesa Air Group (http://topics.edition.cnn.com/topics/mesa_air_group_inc). The company had no immediate response to the findings.
The Hawaii (http://topics.edition.cnn.com/topics/hawaii) incident and a 2007 runway landing accident in Michigan that investigators blamed on pilot fatigue prompted a call by federal safety experts to scale back the maximum workday allowed for airline pilots and implement other "fatigue management" programs.
Safe and happy flying to all from Sybil, Poly and Manuel!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

BF

[captjns]

Can anyone recall when they went off duty the previous day?

[cessnapuppy]

there is a big difference between 'SAFE' and 'UNEVENTFUL . Airline management, bean counters, Nasa Engineers etc, have for years equated an absence of incidents with 'safety' with inevitable disastrous results. what would have been the outcome if there a pitot tube blockage etc and a sudden departure from Auto Pilot into alternate law with 'spurious stall warnings'? with total lack of situational and contextual awareness, what would their first move be? The growing reliance on automated everything (good) coupled with an eager atrophy of basic flying skills is a recipe for disaster. What would have been the investigative path for this fatal crash? The pilot and co-pilot of a Go! Airlines jet failed to respond to calls from air traffic controllers for 18 minutes during the February 2008 flight from Honolulu to Hilo pPrune would have been filled with all kinds of Airbus vs Boeing invective, demands that he should have kicked off the purser at the earliest opportunity and of course relating the infamous 600 mph office. :( whom would even theorize that the pilots were simply asleep, hit a bunch of turbulence, reacted inappropriately due to their disoriented state and had a major unrecoverable upset?

[bnt]

There are strong causal links between sleep apnea and general self-imposed health issues, such as excessive smoking or drinking, and (in particular) obesity. I don't know what the situation was in this particular case, but isn't obesity the kind of thing that gets checked at the mandatory medicals?

[visibility3miles]

See this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/314636-asleep-fatigue.html

I've asked the mods to merge this with that.
Sleep apnea is a serious problem for some people, often caused by weight issues, but not entirely. It can run in families, which implies that the general structure of the throat/windpipe/uvula can be better or worse for some.

There are night time breathing devices that provide positive air pressure via a nose or face mask to keep your windpipe from closing.

Sleep apnea occurs when the uvula in your throat relaxes and blocks your breathing, which essentially starts to suffocate you until your body reacts by snorting/snoring and partially jarring you awake. Not conducive for a good night's rest.

[visibility3miles]

Mods, feel free to delete this post...

flight from Honolulu to Hilo and awoke to find they had overshot their destination by about 30 miles

Look at a map. The reason this caused serious concern is where are you going to land after you keep flying south of Hilo? How much reserve fuel do they typically carry for short island hops?

[Uncle Fred]

A-11

As you can see I am a bit late to this thread but you observations are quite good. Irrespective of where one is sitting in the aluminum tube (cabin seat or cockpit) it begs the obvious that one cannot well stay up all night one night and then after only one day be expected awake at 3 a.m. and function well. One of the other problems with regulation is of course the differing opinions that the crewmembers themselves represent. For example, on the EK Melbourne incident there were posters quite adamant about which rest/work schedule works best for them. One poster was advocating a 24 or 36 rest as being best. Frankly for me a 24-28 hour rest when flying east on an internation segment crucifies me. Upon arrival I am going to bed at 3 a.m. body time and then the next morning must be getting up at 2:30 a.m body time to prepare for a 5 a.m. body time departure. For many, a 24 hour rest is onerous at best and leaves (even if one lives like a monk) one pretty K.O.

36 after an eastern ocean crossing works better but is also body time dependent and so a blanket rule would be hard to fit and in some instances, as I am sure you have experienced, can exacerbate the situation. Sadly as you may have noticed, so often when one brings up these issues a stock answer is given by others as to what works for them--great for the 10% who can sleep well at anytime and anywhere.

You might wish to look at some of the research that NASA Ames and Dr. Mark Rosekind have done. Although I strenously disagree with a great deal of it (although from a lay, but operator perspective), it is peer reviewed and leads to quite a bit of the corpus of research that is currently extent.

A-Girl - Excellent summation of what we go through. As you well stated it is not a matter of intent, but rather the simple human limitations of trying to shift a schedule through the clock. As I mentioned to A11, 10% of the population can apparently do it and they, I have thought, are the ones who write the regulations :(

[Nicolaus Silver]

Coys don't need to make $333 mill. By making $222 mill they can improve quality and safety. Shareholders are just as happy with 6% as 9% but execs get bonuses and that's where they send the hounds of bean counters in to short cut every cent possible...as seem with finance guys.

Unions and Pax should take legal action v Execs / Corp for contributing to accidents with negligent intent and input consumer demands for humane management of aspects discussed...

Used to be a consumer paper in 60's (Which or Choice?) which looked at products...time to start one now off for carriers.

[frequentflyer2]

I'm SLF but if you fly Dash 8-400's in and out of BHD you may have seen me boarding your aircraft with a bulky square blue bag. This contains my CPAP machine - a vital piece of equipment as like this pilot I suffer from sleep apnoea described by my doctors as 'significant'.
I would be totally amazed if he did not realise there was a problem. I struggled with it for years, falling asleep over my computer in work, feeling as if I was going around in a fog, going outside for fresh air, fighting to keep my eyes open. It's awful. A complete nightmare. No-one with this condition should be trying to fly hundreds of passengers around every day until the problem is completely eradicated.
My diagnosis was complicated by the fact I have an ongoing pituary gland problem which means I have to take thyroid replacement every day. Doctors including my hospital endocrinologist felt for a long time this condition was to blame. Eventually, a new GP in my practice who wasn't as tuned in to my previous problems decided to refer me to a specialist.
By this stage I had reduced my driving to the absolute minimum and following diagnosis my licence was suspended. The condition is much better now but it has not gone away completely despite both the CPAP machine and use of the drug Modafinil. Six months after my licence was suspended I lost it altogether and I don't think I'll ever drive again.
My point is sleep apnoea is a dangerous condition. If untreated it leads to death as it puts strain on the heart and lungs but it also poses a great danger to others if the sufferer does not acknowledge there's a problem.
I could not continue to drive either legally or morally. This airline pilot should not have been flying.

[Banzai Eagle]

A11
Just to give you another side to the discussion given by AB Girl. The rules on crew hours in the UK are controlled by the CAA under CAP371 but also under the juristriction of the EU. In 99% of the rules in CAP371 these are well under those allowed in Europe. UK Airlines have for many years searched for a level playing field with Europe and to an extent we have it now. However, the CAA and to their credit so far all UK Airlines are sticking to CAP371. A good example is at night in the UK we can do 10.15 hours for a 2 sector night reporting after 2200 whereas in Europe 11.45. In the UK we're limited to 3 earlys or nights, in Europe - no limits. So AB girl is correct to a certain extent that CAP371 needs changing, why not for example run 4 earlys or 4 nights instead of the mix she had?. Safer - yes given the studies undertaken by Airlines that operate that sort of programme.
Many Airlines are now adopting Fatigue Risk Management programmes, crews have to complete sleep studies, under take alertness tasks whilst on duty etc. Many Airlines don't and state that CAP371 gives them the protection they need (Big Bird Airways for example).
Overall your better placed in my view flying with a UK Airline

[crippen]

SLF but ex taxi driver. Had a taxi driver in our group with apnea.Used to keep awake with chocolate and rum on long drives!Drove into a Land Rover at sixty mph in the end and killed himself.Very dangerous not enough sleep.

[crazyaviator]

Folks, lets for a second look at the other side of the coin , How many captains over 40 do you know that are overweight or obese and live a sedentary lifestyle ? TOO many ! how many female pilots do you know who are obese/overweight ? Clearly, the women are doing a much better job with their health. Obesity leads to problems with your ability to handle the various stress and fatigue inducing problems in aviation and so you all better look at the mirror FIRST before pointing the finger in every other direction ( Hint: try getting into shape and USING your noggen in IMPROVING ways to avoid fatigue, etc ! During your 15-18 days off a month !!!)

[ChrisVJ]

Obviously those doctors and controllers don't have the time change to combat as well.

I have only suffered mildly before but this last rip to Thailand, going it took me a day or two to adjust, coming back was different entirely. We were well rested before the trip and the early morning start wasn't extreme, left the hotel after six, but for at least a week after we got back I was completely wasted. Three to four o'clock every afternoon I folded like a bad poker hand. I was just thinking, "How do those pilots do it?" I was doing some home plumbing and noticed that I was mis measuring, making mistakes and had become generally incompetent. Had to stop before I set the house on fire.

Frankly I did not have an opinion before, now I realise how serious it could be.