Initial Call to A/G equipped Airfield

[FlyEJF]

Hi,

If flying through or near to an ATZ of an airfield which only has an Air/ground radio, what is the correct initial call? For example "Callsign, request FIS" etc

Ed

[Spitoon]

By definition, an A/G station cannot give you a FIS. I think you'll find the definitive answer in CAP 413 but it should be who you are and what you plan to do, perhaps with a request for traffic information.

I know it sounds very much like a FIS - but it isn't!

[Cahlibahn]

Someting like

xxxx Radio, G-ABCD is a PA28 from yyyy , 3 miles northwest, heading 090 altitude 1800 feet, QNH 1013 request traffic information.

should cover things

[FlyEJF]

Hi Spitoon,

Yes i agree. it can't give a FIS. I guess the initial call could be just the callsign and then wait until they ask you to pass a message. Or callsign and something like traffic information etc.

I'll have a look in CAP413
Cheers

Ed

[englishal]

I wouldn't call them unless going through their ATZ. They'll probably respond with something like "no known traffic" anyway.

[skyfly150]

Your initial call to an air-ground station ( you should know what type of station you are calling)(( see the airfield guides))
should be ' ****** RADIO, G-**** '

Thats it.......try this three times and if no reply.....you are on your own!!

The reply you recieve, if you get one, should be
'G-**** this is ****** RADIO, pass your message'.

Then you take it from there, but YOU should only be given airfield information and traffic information.....A/G radio stations cannot give YOU instructions and cannot give a flight information service.
Many A/G radio operators tend to use the term 'at your discretion' although this is incorrect. This is an F.I.S term.

Hope this helps...SATCO

[PompeyPaul]

I recently looked this up in CAP413. I was lead to believe initial call should be

**** radio G-ABCD requesting traffic information

[Spruit]

CAP 413 does state when overflying the initial call should be;

" *Wherever* Radio G-ABCD request traffic information"

To which you should receive the response;

"G-ABCD *Wherever* radio pass your message"

Then you go with who you are, where your going, current position, current altitude, current QNH and where you'll be at what time.

To which they respond with traffic information, runway usage and QNH.

Spru!

[NorthSouth]

So much superfluous verbiage. Why ask for traffic info in the first call? You'll only have to say it again when they ask you to pass your message. And no point in saying your heading, it will be of no relevance to anyone listening if you've said where you're coming from and going to.

X Radio G-ABCD
G-ABCD X Radio pass yr msg
G-ABCD PA28 Y to Z, x miles south of you 2000ft to route through your overhead, request aerodrome and traffic information
G-CD runway in use 26 QNH 1026 QFE 1023 the circuit is active, no other known traffic
G-CD runway 26, QNH 1026 QFE 1023, climbing to 2000ft 1023 and we'll call routing through the overhead
G-CD roger

NS

[Malcolm G O Payne]

The initial call should be the callsign of the ATC being called, the call sign of the aircraft and the service required.
From this the ATC, FISO or Radio operator can decide what priority to give to your call.

I have more than twenty years as an RT examiner and this is what I am looking for, amongst many other items, when I do a practical test.

[Shunter]

Hmm... my R/T examiner taught that all introductions should be:

"XXX Approach/Radar/Radio, G-XXXX"

because depending on who you're calling they might be very busy and they don't want you waffling on during your first call when all they're going to say is 'standby'. Just like when getting passed from approach to tower, you hear so many feckwits saying, "XXX tower, G-XXXX, positioning for downwind XX, altitude blah, QNH blah". Tower know damn well who you are, where you're going and know what info you've got. Say hello, then shut up. If they want/need more info they'll ask for it.

If I'm inbound to an A/G I'll tell them, for example, "approaching from the north-east at 4000ft, 10 miles to run", then request airfield info (active runway, join, QNH if they've got it etc..). Depending on the airfield, I'll sometimes ask them to put the kettle on aswell.

[Spitoon]

The initial call should be the callsign of the ATC being called, the call sign of the aircraft and the service required.
From this the ATC, FISO or Radio operator can decide what priority to give to your call.

I have more than twenty years as an RT examiner and this is what I am looking for, amongst many other items, when I do a practical test.

As an RT examiner of more than 20 years experience I hope you'll forgive me if I pick you up on a couple of little points.

You initially mention the callsign of the ATC unit being called but later talk about FIS(O) and Radio operators. ATC is one type of air traffic service - it is not a generic term for someone that pilots talk to on the ground. Each of the three services are different and can provide the pilot with different things - but it is useful to know what the air traffic service can provide before calling up and asking for something that is not possible. It is the ground station callsign that is the best indicator of the services that will be available.

In my earlier post I mentioned that the definitive answer to the original question was probably in CAP 413 - but I didn't have a copy to hand to check. Having now perused this authoritative document I notice that it provides some very clear guidance:

Initial Call - VFR Flight
1.4.1 Normally, the initial call to an ATS unit should only include the minimum information needed to establish:
a) the service that an enroute flight requires, or
b) the clearance/information that a joining or departing flight requires.

The ATS unit will then respond with ‘Pass Your Message’ enabling more detailed information to be passed if required.

1.5 Reply to 'Pass Your Message'
1.5.1 Flights on or in the vicinity of an aerodrome
Pilots of aircraft inbound or outbound to an aerodrome, or wishing to manoeuvre on an aerodrome, when instructed by the ATS unit to 'Pass your message' should respond in the manner described in Chapter 4.

Enroute flights
Generally, the format of this call is applicable to aircraft operating under Visual Flight Rules (VFR). However, the format (described in Paragraph 1.5.3) may be used by aircraft operating under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR), when contacting an ATS unit that does not hold details of the flight.

1.5.3 When instructed by the ATS Unit to 'Pass Your Message', the reply should contain the following information, whenever possible in the order specified:
a) Aircraft Callsign / Type
b) Departure Point and Destination
c) Present Position
d) Level
e) Additional details / Intention (e.g. Flight Rules, Next route point)

I am, of course, assuming that CAP 413 is the reference document for RT in the UK. It's what the ATS as a reference. If this is a correct assumption I would hope that you, as an examiner would be looking for that.

Now, you'll probably tell me that with a JAR-PPL that you don't use CAP 413 as a reference. If so, we can probably have an interesting debate about A/G radio stations and where they fit in!

[grumpy mode off]

[Whopity]

The correct document for radio calls to an AGCS is CAP452 http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP452.PDF. As with all calls they sould relate to:
Who are you?
Where are you?
What do you want?

Rule 45 states that
(5) If there is no flight information service unit at the aerodrome the commander shall obtain information from the air/ground communication service to enable the flight to be conducted safely within the zone.

(6) The commander of an aircraft flying within the aerodrome traffic zone of an aerodrome shall—

(a) cause a continuous watch to be maintained on the appropriate radio frequency notified for communications at the aerodrome; or

(b) if this is not possible, cause a watch to be kept for such instructions as may be issued by visual means; and

(c) if the aircraft is fitted with means of communication by radio with the ground, communicate his position and height to the air traffic control unit, the flight information service unit or the air/ground communication service at the aerodrome (as the case may be) on entering the zone and immediately prior to leaving it.

[Spitoon]

The correct document for radio calls to an AGCS is CAP452Sorry, but CAP 452 is mainly about how to become a ground radio station operator - for guidance about radio calls it refers you to CAP 413.

[PompeyPaul]

2 weeks ago I was near Bembridge and said

"Bembridge radio, G-ABCD in the area, not inbound"

I then looked up what I should have said in CAP413 and it said about traffic

"Bembridge radio, G-ABCD requesting traffic information"

Each time I got what I wanted. I didn't have an F15 turn up and shoot me down for using incorrect RT. Whilst I get the importance of adhering to CAP413 it really is more important that you make contact at all, rather than avoid it due to embarrasment or some other such silly reason to die.

Similarly, imho, it's still better to say to Farnborough "erm, ahh, Fanrborough Radar, student callsign, erm, in the area, on local nav, erm, ah, hmm, in a plane, wanting to go south" then it is to not call them at all.

[Spitoon]

Pompy, you're quite right in practice. But an RT examiner should be looking for both practical competence and compliance with the rules - if a candidate cannot get it broadly right for the test, is it right to pass? And I would hope that the examiner knows what the rules are.

[Malcolm G O Payne]

Spitoon. My apologies, I should have worded my reply better. I use CAP 413 at all times.

[Charles Sierra]

I think skyfly150 has it summed up fairly well and to the point :ok:.That is how it was taught to me and that is how I hear loads of other pilots talk. Saying that ,I have heard nothing annotated with the magical word "student" yet.:rolleyes:

[TotalBeginner]

Your initial call to an air-ground station ( you should know what type of station you are calling)(( see the airfield guides))
should be ' ****** RADIO, G-**** '

Thats it.......try this three times and if no reply.....you are on your own!!

The reply you recieve, if you get one, should be
'G-**** this is ****** RADIO, pass your message'.

Yep, I agree, it really is that simple! And I think this is how most pilots will open dialogue with an A/G operator.

[Spitoon]

Malcolm, no problem, I was just real grumpy last night.

But it's interesting that you still use CAP 413 - I only made my comment about that document being the reference because, as I understand it, professional licence holders are not tested on UK phraseology (instead, presumably, ICAO is used as a reference) because it is based on the JAA common syllabus. So, for a professional pilot who gets his or her licence in the UK on a 'short' course (I'm not sure what they are called officially but I'm thinking of the ones where you go from working in MacDonalds to frozen ATPL in 200 odd hours) they will not be tested - or, perhaps, even know - CAP 413 phraseology. It would be more worrying still if PPLs did not use CAP 413 as the reference.

But I just wonder where that leaves CAP 413. I'm no great fan of the UK having huge numbers of differences to ICAO standards but I do believe that sometimes we in the UK have made improvements to or mitigated some risks inherent in the international rules. In phraseology I can think of a couple of examples where the ICAO phaseology is (or was for a while) ambiguous. I can see us having to do away with CAP 413 at some point in the future, probably because of some edict from EASA, which I think would be disappointing.


Apologies to FlyEJF for the wild thread drift but I'd be interested in the thoughts of an RT examiner on the role or benefits of CAP 413.

[Malcolm G O Payne]

I'm on firmer ground here. The only exemption that trainee professional pilots get regarding the RT licence is
regarding the HF endorsement. The subject is covered in detail in the CPL/ATPL written examinations. The rest of the RT examinations have to be taken and the same question papers and practical tests are used as for the PPL. I was an examiner at Oxford Air Training School from 1993 to 2002.