Avionics Install Costs

[VORTIME]

Hi there,

I'm not sure what is involved in this as I haven't done it before... what is the cost of getting the following items installed (presuming I provide the hardware and just want someone to install in a PA32 panel).

- Garmin Audio Panel (replacing old)
- GNS430 (replacing GNS150)
- Garmin Nav/Comm - replacing old one
- Aspen Avionics EFD1000 PFD ATP

Some opinions as to the install cost for each component seperately would be really appreciated and general guidelines as to the cost of avionic upgrades (labour wise, I can find the prices online).

Thanks
VT

[Pilotdom]

Bose-x is probably your man.

[Zulu Alpha]

I have always found thatn the cost of installation is approx the same as the price of the equipment installed. ie take the equipment price and double it.

On older aircraft the wiring can be quite stiff and moving it about always seems to create further problems.

Good luck

ZA

[IO540]

For installation from scratch, usually add 50% of the equipment value. That is a very rough rule.

Sometimes it is much less, e.g installing a Mode S where there was a same-sized Mode C and the antenna remains, the installation cost can be down to £200. This is partly because the avionics shop has made £500 on the trade discount on the supply of the unit :)

Most situations where somebody pays much less than normal on major changes involve some unusual scenario e.g. a very friendly avionics man installing customer issued parts and perhaps paid cash in hand. You can buy avionics for far less than UK prices from the USA from here (http://www.seaerospace.com) for example but most UK avionics shops won't touch the kit with a bargepole because there is no trade discount on it. The only cases I know of where this worked was either with a friendly avionics man, or in the context of a really big refurb job.

[wigglyamp]

Of course, when the owner supplies avionic parts to his friendly engineer to install ( and hopefully correctly certify with the right EASA approved mod paperwork), he will doubtless expect such engineer to investigate any subsequent failure. Where that failure is down to equipment rather than an install fault, friendly engineer has incurred investigation time with no recompense, probably has to send parts off for warranty - even new bits don't get warranty freight paid, and all without making a buck on the parts.

You wouldn't go to Kwik-Fit with your own exhaust and expect them to fit it would you?

And of course, we assume owner has sufficient savvy to buy the right bits in the first place with correct paperwork. Naturally he will have obtained quotes rom several reputable avionic shops who have spent time coming up with the appropriate interfaces, described required adaptors that may be needed etc, and all for no reward.

[IO540]

friendly engineer has incurred investigation time with no recompense, probably has to send parts off for warranty - even new bits don't get warranty freight paid, and all without making a buck on the parts.

I don't see why, wigglyamp. The customer will be charged for the installer's time etc in that situation. That's the risk one carries if one free issues the equipment.

[L-Band]

I have just put in a Mod to EASA for installing the above equipment, they have come back to me and said that this will be a Major modification, has to go to a Design Org and by my experience will outway the cost off buying and installing it. And all i am trying to do is comply with there rules and regulations!:confused:

L

[IO540]

Europe has never had a meaningful regime for approving small mods like the sort of avionics upgrade referred to.

It can pay to get it all done by a company with the EASA design approval; often these have template paper packs which they just modify for the particular job and then it costs a bit less... £2000 instead of £5000 :) But as always the key thing is to get a written confirmation from the installer before leaving him the aircraft. Too many people have discovered something is a major mod when the plane is all in pieces. Proper project management is close to nonexistent in the GA avionics market.

The FAA has a much better system, with the IA having considerable discretion and Part 43 carries a clear enough list of Major Mods here (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgFAR.nsf/0/AC9BED30F1D032B9852566AB006BC89C?OpenDocument). Unfortunately even this stuff is widely "interpreted differently" in the UK by some firms.

[englishal]

Can one install their own avionics? For example I'm quite capable of installing a GPS / Radio (VOR / whatever)? There is nothing rocket science about it at all.

I appreciate for IFR equipment then obviously one needs to be sure it is properly inspected and tested, and of course paying for this service is fair enough. I'm thinking mainly about VFR kit, but could you install IF kit then pay for an IFR inspection (like the Radio "annual" whatever that is - cost us £150 I think and I still had the fix a problem after collecting the plane).

[IO540]

Anybody can do the installation, but the appropriate person needs to inspect and sign it off.

However, "customer assisted" work is rare in practice, due to the usual commercial issues referred to by e.g. wigglyamp above.

In any case, anybody can legally dismantle a plane or any part of it. It's only putting it back together that is a problem. This pretty obvious concession can save a great deal of money, in the right circumstances.

The really basic problem with avionics is that very few of the installers are electronics engineers. They are largely wiremen, following wiring diagrams in the installation manuals. Most common avionics we see around are just very common and the wiring is well known. The manufacturers also offer a degree of assistance to the installer. But if something just doesn't work then often it is abandoned because nobody is able to get to the bottom of it. Occassionally, the only way to find out why something isn't talking to something else is to get a protocol analyser and virtually nobody is going to do that.

[englishal]

Thanks...

I know a great FAA guy if you need one ;)

[SkyHawk-N]

In any case, anybody can legally dismantle a plane or any part of it.

I don't believe this statement is correct. I believe under FAA rules, removal, as well as installation, has to be carried out as per the official maintenance manual for the aircraft by an approved mechanic. That is why FAA Owner Preventative Maintenance guidelines specifically mentions Removal and Installation with items that owners are allowed to touch, for example tyres, etc..

[IO540]

I think they mean removal with the intention of reinstalling.

There is no doubt one can dismantle if e.g scrapping :)

[wigglyamp]

As has been pointed out, anyone can install their own equipment provided that a suitably qualified engineer is prepared to sign off the installation.
Of course, the installer will require the correct tooling for making off high-density crimp connectors (if fitting almost all Garmin units), will need access to the correct cables (must meet correct flammability requirements etc). The correct test equipment to prove serviceability doen't come cheap - to test a Mode S transponder is giving the right address needs a $15K test set, plus a suitable air data test set to check the altitude is correct - another $10K! All good avionic shops will possess all of this kit, and pay to keep it calibrated.
A reputable Part 21J design company will specify all the suitable materials as part of the modification data package. Typically a minor mod (e.g. Mode S in a single-engine aircraft with no DAPs) will cost around £700-900. Whilst this is a far cry from paying the old £77 fee to the CAA, the data is no longer a two page application to the CAA regional office, but rather more like 25 pages to satisfy all of EASA's rules including continued airworthiness, full wiring diagram package etc.

Please don't knock all the avionic companies for what they charge- it's generally much cheaper than you pay for car maintenance, has greater overheads due to test equipment and approval fees, requires significantly more training (certainly for avionics) and needs a minimum of 3 years to get through the exams before you can sign of the work.

[IO540]

Not that I disagree, wigglyamp, but being a hardware/software designer of some 30 years (and probably capable of developing a Garmin 530 if I had enough years to do it) let me point out a few things:

1. I would not use crimp connectors; I would solder if at all possible, and heatshrink sleeve on top. And use sealed connectors - these can be labour intensive to terminate so avionics people avoid them but they are the only way to get long term reliability. Crimps are responsible for an awful lot of intermittent problems - usually many years later. Even the better car alarm fitters now solder - crimps give too many comebacks.

2. The correct grade cables are easy to get but not in short lengths; if one needs a few yards the best way is to buy it from ..... the friendly avionics shop :)

3. The test equipment can be rented and many avionics shops do that

4. It isn't always calibrated. I've seen some with very old 'calibrated' stickers. Another reason for borrowing/renting - it increases the utilisation.

5. A lot of the EASA (or FAA for that matter) applications can be quickly generated or adapted from templates provided in the back of the installation manuals. In fact there are avionics shops who openly sell such "paper packages" to other avionics shops. This is a good thing of course because it spreads the cost, but don't let the avionics shop tell you they had to generate all 25 pages each time.

GA is always going to be full of moaners but there would be a lot fewer people moaning about avionics shops if they all did consistently good work, to spec and on time. Currently, even getting a written quotation is like pulling teeth with a wire stripper - the stampede for Mode S has made even replying to emails a waste of time for many. Often, some function does not work (due to subtle equipment inter-operability) but the customer is left with abandoning it as a fait accompli. Finally, I wonder what they do for 3 years studying; you get a full time electronics degree in 3 years.

Avionics is never going to make one rich because most people want something for nothing, but one should not suggest it is something extra complicated. It is just another specialist wiring + metal hacking discipline.

[Rod1]

wigglyamp

You make it sound so difficult and so complicated that for course your average Joe will gladly part with thousands for the avionics god to do his stuff. The reality is that your average Joe could learn how to wire up an entire aircraft, including the avionics, in not very long at all. Fortunately the LAA system allows this to happen and yes I have done 95% of the wiring on my aircraft, including a glass panel and a navcom.

I recently demonstrated to another owner what work was required to upgrade his plug compatible mode s transponder. When he found out he had been charged £1000 plus vat for an installation which had taken about 10 min he was not very impressed! The paperwork / mod fee was separate, the £1000 was just for installation which requires no special tools, no wiring and the unit tests itself and allows you to enter the id and check the mode c from the front panel etc…

Rod1