Night Qualification as a "get you home"

[PompeyPaul]

Quite a few people have said that with a PPL and Night Qualification you should only use the night priviledge to get you home. I.e. if you have been waiting around for fuel or some other reason.

My instructor still warns me not to knowingly fly at night. What I was wondering though is, if you don't regularly practice night flying then isn't it more dangerous to use it as a "get me home" ? It's also illegal if you are carrying passengers with you, if you've not performed a take off and landing in the last 90 days.

Shouldn't you still aim to knowingly and regularly, fly at night ? Even if it's just a brief circuit or brimble out of the circuit, to a known area and then a circuit rejoin ?

[Duchess_Driver]

Go for it... night flying is no more dangerous under normal circumstances than flying during the day. Does the aeroplane know it is dark?

Yep, get one. Yep, practice - regularly.

Easier to fly at night - the radio is less busy, people give you a better service as a result. It's usually much calmer and smoother. Navigation is different but no harder.

What is a shame here in the U.K. is that there aren't more places open at night - those that are a expensive to land at.

Pilot controlled lighting anyone?

[Blinkz]

Personally I think you need to be a little more careful flying at night in a GA aircraft. Whilst yes the aircraft doesn't know that it is night there are other things to be wary off. If you DO have an engine failure then conducting a PFL is going to be more luck then skill depending on where you happen to be (I know you can argue that in the daytime but in the day you can see where your going!) also night makes weather and more specifically cloud avoidance much harder. You can be into a cloud before you even know it and if you don't have any instrument qualifications then this could be a problem. If you have an electrical failure then this can be a much harder problem to manage since you will now not have any light in the cockpit apart from torch. Basically all of the normal problems that we have trained to deal with all become just a little bit more interesting should they happen at night.

This is not trying to put you off, but just to make sure you give it the respect that it deserves!

[Shunter]

Flying at night is a risk assessment, simple as that. If you feel the risk of an engine failure at night and the associated issues are sufficiently negligable that you're comfortable to go flying, then go flying. I simply fly as high as the weather and airspace will allow when it's dark.

Are these "quite a few people" the same ones who say the IMC rating is a get-you-home by any chance? No doubt they'd be mortified to hear about someone flying at night, in IMC, over water.

[BackPacker]

I have to agree with the posters above. Flying at night is fantastic but should be approached with due care and preparation. So don't use it "just" as a way to get home after the bowser appeared too late with your fuel. If it seems that due to circumstances your flight will be a (partial) night flight, then do a complete replan of your flight or abandon it altogether.

Things to consider night vs. day:

ALL plane lights have to be in perfect working order and the Minimum Equipment List (from the POH) for Night VFR flying should be checked.
Spare torch within reach or better yet, a headlamp (I have a Petzl Tactikka which is perfect for this sort of thing.)
NO clouds expected at any altitude you intend to fly at. Clouds are virtually invisible at night until you're in them. (Also consider the icing level in case you inadvertently do get into cloud.)
You have to check your destination and alternates for opening times, lighting, expected weather, landing fees and such. A lot of GA airfields are closed at night, or have something else that prevents them from being used as alternate.
You have to reconsider the way you perform your navigation. Landmarks that are easily visible by day might be impossible to spot by night and vice versa. Highways are great to follow, but rivers, rail lines, power lines etc. are not a good idea. Obviously radio nav works both night and day.


All this apart from the night currency requirements, which you already mentioned.

[Deano777]

It may be worth considering an IMC rating first if you intend to fly alot at night for the very reasons stated above.

Remember there is no such thing as VFR at night as also stated above, you are IFR at night in VMC. (you hope)

Night flying is personal to everyone, by this I mean nobody should be chastised just because they think it isn't worth risking, do your own risk assessment, those telling you to just go and do it are treading dangerously, conversely and contradictory there is no reason why you shouldn't enjoy night flying as long as you take precautions.
Personally I love night flying, but I won't go up for long, and I won't take up my loved ones, and the comment above about the aircraft not knowing it is night is the reason why, an engine failure at night is going to ruin your day. I enjoy the views now from 30,000ft.

D777

p.s. PLEASE no jokes regarding switching off the Landing light, you all know which one I mean :=

[IO540]

Personally, I avoid flying extensively at night because one has no options in the event of an engine failure.

One certainly should be instrument capable (aircraft control and navigation) for night flight, because of the at best misleading visual cues. The legal ability to fly at night without an instrument qualification is a peculiar hangover from the old days when everything was allowed.

As an FAA licensed pilot I have to do three night takeoffs and landings to carry passengers, not just one.

[Blinkz]

Hi, I believe that certainly the Anti-Collision light and Nav lights are a min requirement for legal night flight? Is a working landing light required? It certainly makes taxying that much harder without it.

If the landing light is required, is my flying club acting illegally knowingly letting me take the aircraft for night circuits with a u/s landing light? (obviously by that reasoning, I too would be acting illegally).

Can it be u/s for a day time flight. If i report the landing light to be u/s will that effectively ground the aircraft?

Thanks

Check the MEL

[Cusco]

Backpacker mentioned:

Spare torch within reach or better yet, a headlamp (I have a Petzl Tactikka which is perfect for this sort of thing.)

Is that the PETZL with the standard bulb? or is it LED: and what do you use for a red filter so your night vision doesn't get clobbered by bright white light?

Cusco

[Julian]

I absolutely love flying at night and have never been told not to by an instructor, nor would I expect to be. Maybe your instructor has had a bad experience that has put him off.:confused:

Yes night flying, as pointed out, does carry a certain amount of extra risk but if you are current and you are properly equipped (your flight bag will be slightly different from your day VFR, such as torches, etc) and you have made sure your aircraft is A1, then go for it!!!!

J.

[RatherBeFlying]

There's lots of little gotchas that surface at night:

Yep, it sure is easy to fly into a cloud. The earlier remark about freezing level deserves to be taken seriously, but the last time I did that the OAT was inop. Fortunately the ceiling was just 500' below. In the US, you can check in with center for flight following and fly on airways; so, have assured terrain clearance as it's just as easy to fly into something harder than a cloud:uhoh:

I use the AH for the first 500' of climb, again to make sure I'm in a proper climb. Do not fiddle with rheostat instrument light dimmers such as found in certain Cessna products in this phase as it's not good when the lights go completely out. Hint: practice how to flick on the dome light while looking straight ahead.

Some radios do not switch on with the volume knob; sometimes there is an unlit concentric switch:mad:

Birds are unlit, but if the landing light shows what looks like a snowball, it's time to stuff your head under the panel:ouch:

[BackPacker]

Is that the PETZL with the standard bulb? or is it LED: and what do you use for a red filter so your night vision doesn't get clobbered by bright white light?

3 AAA batteries last +/- 100 hours
4 LEDs with adjustable brightness (3 levels + flashing setting)
Integrated red filter which you flick in front
Lightweight; adjustable angle; elastic headband.
Approx. 30 euros.

Perfect.

http://en.petzl.com/petzl/LampesProduits?Produit=482

[scooter boy]

"Pilot controlled lighting anyone?"

Yup, I have a PCL for my helipad which I regularly use at night in the Winter, Autumn and Spring.
Cost me $700 US or so and works a treat with about 2 miles range.

Although I try to avoid night flight when I can I have no problem with it if the conditions are clear and there is "adequate celestial illumination".
Sometimes the moonlight on a clear night gives viz as good as it is on a hazy day.

Night flying is mainly a state of mind. The machine has to be prepared and you have to be in the right frame of mind. Also you need to pay special attention to the weather and alternates as most will not be available in the UK. My biggest question is will I be able to return if things are not going well or if not where else can I go?

Also where are the powerlines?
Most GPS databases do not include this vital detail for helicopters.

Fixed wing single-engine at night I also try to avoid but if the weather window falls at night for departure or arrival then that is when I go.

IMC at night can be unnerving as any turbulence can be far more disorientating as visual references are limited

Crash survivability in any aircraft is almost certainly diminished on all but the most moonlit of nights.

It is a wonderful time to fly though and although daytime is safer I love looking down on all the twinkling lights.

SB

[BackPacker]

Remember there is no such thing as VFR at night as also stated above, you are IFR at night in VMC. (you hope)

That is just the case in the UK, where flying at night is by definition done under IFR. But in the UK (and in the UK alone) you can fly IFR outside of controlled airspace on just a PPL without IR or IMC, providing that you stay in legal VMC.

In the rest of the world, you need an IR to fly IFR, and flying at night is under VFR rules and regulations. Although some countries, including the Netherlands :* forbid NVFR altogether.

[Lasiorhinus]

Small light aircraft are not usually equipped with Minimum Equipment Lists. The minimim things to have on board when flying night vfr would most likely be found in your legislation.

In Australia, and I cant imagine it being TOO different for you over in the antipodes, you dont need any lights at all for flight under the VFR by day, but by night, you need navigation lights and an anti-collision light.

If you're flying RPT or charter, you need TWO landing lights, Private or Aerial Work only needs one.

If your instructor is sending you out at night in an aircraft with no landing light, bring it to their attention that the light is U/S. Either endorse the maintenence release yourself, or ask the instructor to do so, but I would not accept the aircraft if it didn't meet the requirements. Ask for a different aircraft, or confine your flying to Day VFR until the light is repaired.

[Final 3 Greens]

Hi Pompey Paul

A night rating is very useful for legally sneaking back into the field when it is officially night, but in reality there is enough light to see whats what and so I can understand where your instructor is coming from, if he is making his statement in this context only. In this respect it is different to an IMC rating.

Beyond that, night flying requires the appropriate level of preparation and currency and in this respect it is similar to using an IMC rating, since planning to fly into an environment which is more challenging than daytime VFR demands comensurate respect.

Personally, I don't like the risk profile of taking a light single away from the circuit, but as others have said it is a personal decision and there can be no argument that a flight on a clear starry night is a stunningly beautiful experience.

[Lasiorhinus]

Personally, I don't like the risk profile of taking a light single away from the circuit,


Egad, good sir, do you mean to tell me you would have happily remained in the circuit area for your entire flying career until gaining a multi engine endorsement?

[Blinkz]

all of the GA aircraft I have flown have had MELs? They are either in the POF or in the school ops manual.

[Final 3 Greens]

At night.

How's the CDS treatment (context deficiency syndrome) coming along? :}

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think that there's too much mystique put about about night flying. Yes it's a skill that needs to be learned before you use it - which is what a night qualification is for. Yes, you really should try and stay current but...

... in my experience if you are current anyway, then doing a night flight and landing isn't a big deal, although I'd not argue with the legal inclusion of the 90 day rule for night pax carriage.

Also, most nights you can land on an unlit airfield without lights - it's not ideal, and some nights you can't (so you divert); again I'd not plan for it, but on a moonlit night having gone late a little, I've landed on a grass strip that I could see clearly and at no point felt that I was putting the aircraft in danger. (That said, if at any point I felt that I couldn't see it clearly, then I had a diversion plan and I'd have used it).

Night take-offs without runway lights are different, and I'd not attempt that. For that reason, and more routine ability to perform night landings, I'd love to see pilot controlled lighting at far more (any?) UK airports - it would make a huge different to our ability to use GA aircraft for transport, particularly in the winter.

G

[Final 3 Greens]

I think that there's too much mystique put about about night flying.

I don't think that there is much mystique about night flying in a SEP, but there are a few things that (IMHO) make it more challenging

- inadvertent pentration of IMC, requiring instrument flying skills
- potential icing in the above case
- entering dark areas without a clear horizon, requiring instrument flying skills
- judging landings without the normal daytime clues
- forced landings with less visual clues about the potential site

As a night rating holder, I agree that we are trained to cope with these aspects of flying, but equally believe that an important part of the risk mitigation process is to accept that night flying requires a little more prep than a simple x-country potter around the local area.

Whereas I would be happy to land 20 minutes after official dark from what started out as a VFR jaunt, I would wish to be rather more organised to take off after dark.

Just my tuppence.

[Genghis the Engineer]

F3G - yes.

G

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Small light aircraft are not usually equipped with Minimum Equipment Lists.

Wrong. All aircraft (registered in the UK anyway) have a minimum equipment fit depending on what type of flight it's doing and it's all listed in the Air Navigation Order under Section 1, Schedule 4 'Aircraft Equipment'.

For night flying in, say a C.150, you need at the minimum:

Nav lights
A turn & slip indicator
Cockpit lighting
A torch
A landing light

I must get out more:sad:


Night flying is whatever you want to make it. I enjoy it, but at my home airfield, the portable runway lights only come out very rarely so don't get to do it as much as I would like.

And I also agree about cloud... On one of my first long night X-countrys, I was flying up the East coast in perfect viz and wondered why all the lights had suddenly gone out...

Navigation is 'different', Towns and lights from 40+ miles distant appear to be a lot closer and this can sometimes put off your navigation if flying a slow aeroplane.

And then there's always the "What if the engione stops" question? My own view is that if it does happen, and there's no reason it should any more than flying by day, then just deal with it at the time and do your best.

[Gargleblaster]

Also, most nights you can land on an unlit airfield without lights - it's not ideal, and some nights you can't (so you divert); again I'd not plan for it, but on a moonlit night having gone late a little, I've landed on a grass strip that I could see clearly and at no point felt that I was putting the aircraft in danger. (That said, if at any point I felt that I couldn't see it clearly, then I had a diversion plan and I'd have used it).

Night take-offs without runway lights are different, and I'd not attempt that. For that reason, and more routine ability to perform night landings, I'd love to see pilot controlled lighting at far more (any?) UK airports - it would make a huge different to our ability to use GA aircraft for transport, particularly in the winter.

Brilliant ! Just a pity that it's forbidden where I live.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Night flying, pilot controlled lighting, or something else?

G

[DFC]

Chuffer,

You need to look up what a Minimum Equipment List is.

----------

Properly planned and conducted Night Flying is no more dangerous than flight by day.

Some risk factors increase while many others reduce - the most notable being the risk of collision.

Even single engine overwater is no more dangerous - people have survived ditchings at night.

All flying entails managing risk. If you will not fly by night single engine then you will not fly IMC by day in a single engine and of course since every twin becomes an overloaded single when the (twice as likely) engine failure happens you will not fly by night in a twin either.

I have instructed at all levels for many many years. In terms of forced landings many people would be no worse off not being able to see a field.

Night flying simply needs some practice (familiarity perhaps being a better word) and it becomes more enjoyable than day flying..........unless it is 3 AM and you are on your 3rd long sector!

Regards,

DFC

[Cusco]

Backpacker:

3 AAA batteries last +/- 100 hours
4 LEDs with adjustable brightness (3 levels + flashing setting)
Integrated red filter which you flick in front
Lightweight; adjustable angle; elastic headband.
Approx. 30 euros.

Perfect.

http://en.petzl.com/petzl/LampesProduits?Produit=482
]

BP: Thanks for the heads-up: Mine arrived today: what a fantastic piece of kit.

Cheers

Cusco:ok:

[BackPacker]

Glad you like it. Good luck with it.

Be wary of one effect though. After wearing it for too long (5 days backpacking in winter comes to mind) you automatically reach for your forehead when it gets too dark. Even at home - instead of reaching for the light switch you reach for the Petzl.

At my hiking club we even have a word for it: Petzlmoment. This is the time when it gets too dark to see and everybody switches their Petzls on. Also known as sunset.

[Cusco]

I actually hope I won't need it:

Doing my NQ soon..........

Cusco.

[mostlytossas]

Have to agree with DFC. Those people that say night flying in single engine a/craft is too dangerous are the same ones that say don't fly over water, mountains, desert,forests ,etc. Tell them to take up a nice safe hobby like knitting. Today's engines are very reliable and failures are very rare indeed. Most being caused by some kind of human error. With an attitude like some have, the pioneers of the past would never had got off the ground in their gypsy moths and the like.
I have 100's of hours night flying all in s/e cessnas and pipers and so long as you prepare for any marginal weather with an out route it is not much different to day flying,in fact navigation is usually easier as towns stand out for 50 odd miles away, the turbalance is less, and so is the radio chatter. If the big fan stops head for dark areas as this at night usually means open paddocks (fields to you poms ) or water and in that case you should know it is so aim for the beach. Get your cabin lights off, landing light on and work the rudder when within 300 or so feet to fan the area in front you will be surprised the amount you can see from that height. Practice it over an airstrip and see. Enjoy the experiance of night flying it is one of the pleasures of flying.

[Final 3 Greens]

DFC

You say Properly planned and conducted Night Flying is no more dangerous than flight by day.

Is this based on a statistical approach or is it just your opinion presented as fact?

Before anyone attacks me, I do not know whether the above is true or not, but such assertions require support IMHO.

[mostlytossas]

I believe what he meant is overall the risks are not greatly increased and I agree. Here in OZ the 2 biggest causes of fatalities are VFR flying into IMC and flying too close to the ground ie scud running over rising terrain or silly actions like showing off and stalling at a very low altitude. These 2 causes are far and away the major causes. Fatalities following engine failures are very rare indeed. I suspect this would be the case in most countries. Night flying makes these 2 events much less likely due to lowest safe requirments and the higher weather minimums required for night flying, the need to provide for an alternate etc.
Unfortunately some people and it is usually airline types or the regulators will only be happy when single engine aircraft become 100% safe and are locked away in the hanger.

[Final 3 Greens]

I believe what he meant is overall the risks are not greatly increased and I agree

I understand that, but DFC has a habit of making assertions as if they were fact.

Your opinion is clear and I can see the underpinning logic, but can anyone support this with facts?

I am quite prepared to believe that more people are killed during day ops, but how about per Km flown?

Having suffered a partial engine failure at night in an SEP (multiple spark plug failure), it changed my view on night flying.

Although it is very unlikely to occur, finding yourself with partial power shortly after takeoff at 500' over a built up area, with little comprehension whether the dark areas were parks or industrial estates etc is a sobering experience.

Having said that, I didn't add to the safety stats, that particular flight turned out to be no more dangerous than any other :\

[bookworm]

You say Properly planned and conducted Night Flying is no more dangerous than flight by day.

Is this based on a statistical approach or is it just your opinion presented as fact?

Statistically, it's rather hard to filter on "properly planned and conducted"! Overall, the fatal accident rate is higher at night than during the day. E.g. the Nall report 2007 has a daytime fatal accident rate of 1.4 /100,000 hrs, a nighttime rate of 2.6.

[mostlytossas]

Well all I can say to that is quote a doctor who once said to me about cancer treatments ( and I wasn't the patient a family member was ) that 1 or 2 % difference was hear nor there as it depends on size of sample taken over what period of time, country, etc, and the vagaries of any given sample. For instance there may have been 6 fatalities over a given period but the night one was a 6 seat Lance with 5 on board.
Certainly IF the worst happens you are better off in daylight but the risk is minimal and not worth worrying about to prevent anyone going for and enjoying night flight. If it is then they have the wrong hobby and may I suggest knitting.

[DFC]

The probability of having an accident on a properly planned and executed flight by a proficient pilot is not greather at night than by day.

If one is unlucky enough to have an accident at night then it is more likely to be fatal.

----------

Final 3 Greens,

I understand that, but DFC has a habit of making assertions as if they were fact.

I always simply express opinions unless I am quoting from an official source.

If you find my opinions to be factual then that may be the case if not then that may also be the case but they are still simply opinons.

Just the same for every other poster.

No one should take any opinion expressed by any poster as fact. If you find it is true/ a fact then you are happy ( or not depending on your position in the debate) if you find it not to be a fact then you are quite welcome to express an alternative opinion which may or may not be fact.

Does every poster have to start every single post that is not a quote with in my opinion?

This comes up on a regular basis and I remind everyone of the paragraph at ther bottom and that everyone here is expressing opinions and that no one should base anything on those opinions without first checking it out first.

--------

Back to the debate.

Regards,

DFC

[bookworm]

Well all I can say to that is quote a doctor who once said to me about cancer treatments ( and I wasn't the patient a family member was ) that 1 or 2 % difference was hear nor there as it depends on size of sample taken over what period of time, country, etc, and the vagaries of any given sample.

You might like to notice that the difference in quoted rates is not 1 or 2% but rather 85%, almost a factor of 2. You're correct to be wary of statistics, but that doesn't mean that a particular risk is "not worth worrying about". What you decide is a reasonable risk may not be reasonable for someone else.

If you want to look at the error margins, you do need the sample sizes. There were 229 Day accidents and 44 Night fatal accidents in the study. That makes the night rate 2.6 +/- 0.4 and the day rate 1.4 +/- 0.1 (each fatal accidents per 100,000 flight hours).

The numbers are remarkably similar, year on year. The 2005 numbers were 2.6 and 1.5

For instance there may have been 6 fatalities over a given period but the night one was a 6 seat Lance with 5 on board.

The figures I quoted are fatal accident rates, not fatality rates. Your Lance counts as one accident. That's the correct statistic to use in looking at such risk -- you want to know the probability of dying on a particular flight, not the number of people who will die with you.

I make no judgement on whether night flying is a reasonable risk for any individual. But if you believe it's "no more dangerous than flight by day", you should have a reason for believing that you can beat the odds in the way that others haven't. "Properly planned and conducted" sounds like a very good start.

[mostlytossas]

1/I agree statistics can be made to say pretty well anything. Another way of looking at it is during the day you have a .000014% chance of a fatality if you fly or at night a .000026% chance. Not a figure would stop many
from flying I would think and that has to be over an hour.
2/ I may be wrong here but I think in OZ the stats are actually in reverse in so far as there have been less fatallities at night than day. Many vagaries come into it for eg crop dusting a mainly day time occupation has a fairly high fatality rate given the amount of operators and especially cattle mustering seem to crash regularly due to flying close to ground. The weather here is much better for night flight than in the UK also.
If this keeps on going it will soon be safer to cross the road outside the airport than go flying:)

[Final 3 Greens]

Bookworm

Thanks for sharing the stats.

[BeechNut]

- inadvertent pentration of IMC, requiring instrument flying skills
- potential icing in the above case
- entering dark areas without a clear horizon, requiring instrument flying skills
- judging landings without the normal daytime clues
- forced landings with less visual clues about the potential site


I would add: the black hole effect as well, upon landing.

I am night rated (Canadian PPL), and keep night current. I last flew passengers at night last summer, a VFR tour of Montreal. The route into Montreal from my home field follows a relatively straight, flat, autoroute. Yes there are cable crossings and overpasses... but it's probably better than a black field.

That said I agree with the risk management approach. I would not attempt a long night cross country over mountains, for example, or in Wx that is near the published night VFR minima. I have flown in 6 miles vis. at night, and while that might seem OK in the daytime, it is remarkably poor at dusk and at night.

One point I didn't see mentioned in this thread but that is of vital importance when checking weather: make sure you note the temperature/dew point spread, and the trend.

If the temp. and dew point are within a degree or two of each other, I would not take off even if it's crystal clear out. You run the very big risk of running into fog or having the field obscured by a fog layer.

I've had some outstanding flights at night. As others have said, preparation, keeping skills up-to-date, etc. In Canada we need 5 night takeoffs and landings every 6 months. I do night circuits to keep current, I try landing in different configurations, and I practice landing without a landing light, just in case. And I never take off at night unless conditions are near perfect.

I learned a powerful lesson about night flying about 25 years ago in a C-150. I took off from Kingston, Ontario, and made a left turn out over Lake Ontario. For the first time in my life, I found myself in very real conditions where there was no horizon, so this was pure instrument flying. I had less than 100 hours total flying experience at the time. Fortunately I was sharp on the gauges and as you can see I am here to write this, and the plane was sold in airworthy condition with NDH, but it was a good lesson to not take anything for granted, and I finally understood why my night instructor had my head under the hood so often.

You really have to approach night flying in a thoroughly professional manner, and of course, have an airworthy bird to fly. For some reason, even my own aircraft's engine seems to run rougher at night than in daylight :)

Beech

[mostlytossas]

Don't disagree with anything you say Beechnut. My main gripe is with those people that seem to like scaremongering about night flying and trying to pretend it is too unsafe to do which it is not, providing you follow the rules and have an out if the weather deteriorates.
Here in Australia to fly night VFR you must have 8km vis (5km in daytime) remain above lowest safe by either published charts or 1000' above the highest spot height 10NM either side of track and therefore cloud cover must permit that. Currency requirements are 1 takeoff and landing in 12mths and 1hr flight every 12mths also. If taking passengers then 3 t/offs and landings in the preceeding 3 months is required. There are other requirements regarding providing alternates due weather or runway lighting also as we have extensive PAL lighting here.
I also have had many memorable flights at night such as Adelaide to Canberra or Melbourne etc some 400 or 500 NM and yes plan your route to allow plenty of airports along the way if required. I would hate to see someone being put off the pleasure and convieniance of night flying by a few silly tales of doom and gloom. It is my experiance that it is mainly the airline/ IFR or regulator types that push this nonscence.

[Final 3 Greens]

Mostlytossas

I have never found regulators trying to put anyone off night flying in the UK, in fact the opposite is true.

The regulators allow night rated pilots to fly under IFR in VMC (without instrument qualifications) and offer SVFR where needed.

Unlike Australia, night VFR is illegal in many parts of Europe.

[mostlytossas]

Yes I know it is. That is what I mean by the above comment. The regulators in those countries have disallowed it. Pleased to hear you can in the UK. Fight hard to retain the privledge.:ok:

[IO540]

I never said night flight is unsafe. I would just say that if flying on a real dark night you don't have an escape route for an engine failure. In aviation one should always have an escape route, and here you don't have one. It works in practice, because engine failures are very rare.

[mostlytossas]

The same can be said for flying IFR, or over low cloud ( fog ) over mountains, forrests, water, and so forth. We can't all go flying around in 4 engine aircraft in case we may have an engine failure with no escape route. I t all comes down to planning ( route around mountains etc if possible ) and acceptable risk. There is a risk in everything we do even going to bed. As we are going around in circles on this topic that's it from me. Each to their own and goodluck to all.

[IO540]

The same can be said for flying IFR,

why?

or over low cloud

why?

( fog )

true

over mountains,

most mountains have canyons between them, so one can glide into a valley - the Alps are like that for example

forrests,

true

water,

carry a life raft

The situations which remain uncovered are

Landing/takeoff over built up areas
Flying on a real dark night
Flying above a forest

Cirrus have an interesting approach :)

[S-Works]

I wonder how some people get out of bed in the morning, they might stub a toe or spill the tea.

The aircraft does not know it is dark. I have never considered night flight a problem in an SEP and do it on a regular basis. I have done a few business flights where I have not returned from the continent until the early hours of the morning. PO Lights give me 24hr capability.

I view a night qualification as an integral part of my flying privilege and use it fully. At least 10% of my hours a year are at night and most of them SEP.

[IO540]

I wonder how some people get out of bed in the morning, they might stub a toe or spill the tea

Who are you referring to with the above comment, bose/x??

What you have done is posted your personal attitude to risk, no more. Fair enough. Everybody could post their personal attitude to risk. It's a personal choice.

What you can't say, unless carrying a 3rd gen night vision device and having had some considerable practice with it, is that you have a half decent chance of pulling off a forced landing on a "real night" flight.

An objective difference.

[S-Works]

I was not referring to ANYONE I was expressing a general view on risk assessment. Don't be so sensitive.

You are right I have posted my personal view on risk. I HAVE NOT spent ages trying to convince other people why they should agree with me........

I do not consider flying at night any more dangerous than I consider IFR or flight over water. I mitigate to a level that I am comfortable with and that's it.

I would suggest that those who are considering flying at night carry out there own risk assessment and make a go no go based on their level of comfort.

There are those that deem it an acceptable level of risk and those that don't. What I get fed up of is pages and pages of drivel from people trying to convince us that they are right and flying at night is unsafe.

We all have to make an assessment, simple.

[Final 3 Greens]

I would suggest that those who are considering flying at night carry out there own risk assessment and make a go no go based on their level of comfort.

It's not about risk assessment per se, its about assessment of perceived risk.

The risk of night flying did not increase when I lost some engine power at 500' and survived, but my perception of that risk did.

At the end of the day, if anyone can calculate when an engine may fail or something else nasty might happen, then one would be able to do real risk assessment.

All we can do, really, is to consider our perceptions and then plan a response to these.

This is why we find such diverse opinions about the risks of night flying in a single.

I've been there, done that, looked over the edge of the abyss and changed my view.

But I'm glad I did experience some wonderful night flights and am pleased that others still experience it.

Happy landings everyone.

F3G

[Mouton Rothschild]

My opinion, for what it's worth.

Lets not forget that IFR is a set of rules. It has nothing to do with day, night, VMC, IMC, S/E or M/E. If you intend to fly IFR at night, most of the work will have been done on the ground. Its not difficult, in fact I think it's more straightforward.

I think it's worth remembering a couple of points though.

Single engined aircraft are not permitted to operate public transport flights in the UK.

Single engined aircraft are not permitted to fly over densely populated areas unless they can land clear.

These rules are put in place by the authorities, not because a single engined aircraft has more chance of an engine failure, but the outcome of an engine failure can have more serious consequences. In my flying lifetime, I have had two catastrophic engine failures, both of which were over built up areas and both were at night on multi engined aircraft. Clearly there is an increased risk from S/E at night, but as long as you follow the rules and your happy then go for it.

Following those engine failures, I personally would not fly S/E at night any more, but I certainly have in the past and enjoyed every minute of it.

[rmac]

All of the disadvantages are easily outweighed by the joy, on a good VMC night, of such smooth flying its fingertips on the yokes only. Lovely jubbly ;)