Engineers Duty Hours

[On-MarkBob]

Over the last few weeks I have done a number of flights where it was necessary for us to take along some engineers. I have been horrified at the duty hours these guys have to do. They go to the aircraft before us, fly on the flight, do the turn round while we get of and go to the hotel and a new flight crew takes over, and then they fly all the way back again, and sort out any defects before getting to a proper hotel and a proper bed!
This cannot be right or safe. Is it about time that the engineers flying with an aircraft had to comply with aircrew duty limitations at least that of cabin crew?

[Mr.Brown]

Is it about time that the engineers flying with an aircraft had to comply with aircrew duty limitations at least that of cabin crew?


I don't think the arlines would be too happy with all the costs of the extra staff required to cover the overtime that wouldn't be done if engineers hours were restricted, all needing holiday pay, pension, sick pay, national insurance etc,etc.
Also not too many happy engineers with the loss of overtime payments.
Maybe the flight crews could take a pay cut refective of their actual duty hours to help fund such a venture.:eek:

Seriously though:
Unfortunately, aircraft engineering is not in the front line of avaition, as far as the public and media are concerned, and as a result engineers hours are not subject to same public debates as crew hours. Because of this the airlines have almost self regulated the engineers hours to keep costs down.
In saying that the overtime payments do make up a large part of my total earnings, so really I won't complain.
I could always opt in to the European working time directive but her indoors might not get that boob job.:hmm:

[plasticmerc]

previously I did alot of flying spanner work and let me tell you the money isn't worth it!
you get to the aircraft first,(5am) carryout what you have to do then go flying for 5-6 hours get off carry out any defect rect's refuel turn around go flying again mind you new crew another 5-6hour flight, land and do it again. by this time new crew but still only you!
no duty times for engineers regardless of if you are flight crew or if you are on the ground.
I guess what we do is inconsequentional to a safe flight?
engineers aren't paid thier true value and due to us not bieng seen by joe public not considered vital in the whole picture.
if you have to do overtime to earn a decent wage are you really earning your fair worth?
don't quote me but aren't pilots paid for the maximum hours flying a year regardless of whether they do or don't.(once again assumption)
and this might be different for LCC pilots.
companies believe they have enough engineers to do all the work with all there expansions and the increased flying,
now when a company buys an aircraft it adds depending on how much utilization anything up to 8 sets of crew( allowing for sick leave, duty hours, and 24 hour coverage)
my question is how many engineers are added? if any.
every engineering company/airline wants to fight off duty hours for engineers because maybe they realise they don't have enough.
then the old excuse new aircraft less maintenance not as much to be done as the older ones, yes but for how long? aircraft don't stay new for ever, or do they. in the eyes of a beancounter it's oh the airplane is only 3 years old, not it's done 30000 cyles numerous heavy landings flown through ice,snow,rain and hail half its life on paper its still new!
now I'm getting carried away and getting more and more off track.
just my opinion

[Vortechs Jenerator]

We're cut from different cloth mate form all you big whinging drama queen Pilot Mary's:)

[FHA]

Spot on everyone. Hostie gets a sniffle first thing that morning? Aircraft's decked 'til they drag another one out of bed.
Engineers are at half strength because that's all the crap contract pays for? Who gives a t#ss? Not the airline, because the work still gets done.
You whinge but get on with it. At least it keeps us in-demand and on overtime.:ok:

It occured to me last night just how little (the majority of) pilots know about what we do for a living. Maybe we like it that way, I dunno.
Thanks for your comments MarkBob; good thread.:)

[Rigga]

At a well known UK Charter airline I used to work for within the last two years; An engineer messed up the aircraft by incorrect choices and selections. During the subsequent MOR and QA investigations he is discovered to have made the mistake after some 18 hours of duty time.
In an effort to review the maintenance procedures and mitigate potential recurrences, the objective is so fudged by management, worried by the effects of a solid rule, that all engineers are now encouraged to work not more than 24 hours in any one day!
This was an actual 'procedure review' and the result was okay'ed by national airworthiness officials as they perceived something had been done.

[plasticmerc]

As I said it is in the best interests of a company to do nothing about engineering duty hours as they believe their costs will go up.
I have seen the same thing happen managers stating no more than 16 hours on the trot unless directly autherised from the manager, the same day an hour before you go home oh sorry can you....
so when you ring them up at some crappy hour, why did you ring oh sorry just do what you have to.:ugh:
suddenly the rules don't apply anymore and it is swept up under the carpet again!

[mitzy69]

Airworthiness Notice 47, mentions not being fatigued when working on aircraft. I am sure if mentioned to the manager, that directing engineers to do excessive hours, H.S.E. and duty of care, he would let the travelling engineer join the crew in the hotel, for 12 hours of rest.

[Mr.Brown]

I don't think it would be easy to intoduce a limit to the amount of hours engineers can work but maybe a restriction like not been allowed to certify after 16/18 straight hours on duty might help.

Its all down to money, the management and accountants will visit the engineers line office during the morning or afternoon on a weekday when at least half the aircraft are flying and they'll see x amount of engineers sitting around looking at the AMM or drinking tea or watching tv etc ( sorry drinking tea or looking at tv or looking at the AMM etc:ok:) and they think there's plenty of engineers.

They never visit at 3 O'Clock on Saturday or Sunday morning when one lad is on holidays another sick and all the aircraft are down with defects and need to be serviceable before 0700 so one of the day shift had to stay behind to help out as there was just too much to do.
NAA audits are also the same, they are always during a weekday and are nearly always planned so there's always plenty of staff.
I can't remember thet last time I saw a random audit?:confused:

[WOTME?]

This is the real purpose of HF courses.
So that when you've screwed up after doing 18 hours the company can say 'We put him on a course,he should've known better'.

[spannersatcx]

We have rules, normal shift not to exceed 12 hrs, except in an AOG when 16 hrs max can be worked.

[Krystal n chips]

I always understood ( having done the odd trip..or two ) that one of the great "get out" clauses for "management"....was that as a spanner, whilst you could be classed as super nummerary crew for customs docs... but because you were not actually operating crew and the time spent working was, in theory, shorter than the flight time then you were not exceeding your working hours as you could rest.....rest..in a cabin full of Twacy and "well 'ard big Dazzy" pax...??:ugh:..or a jump seat of course...on the flight to and from the destinations. Total working hours never quite seem to be added to the equation.

Sadly of course, there is the perennial problem that engineers always induce...and wonder why they get s£%t on at times....that of overtime as a bait.

[boeing_eng]

This is a regular discussion topic and its clear that whilst some of us would like to see some action over this issue, there are some would clearly not!!:ugh:

AWN47 is full of good stuff but is written in normal CAA parlance (ie suitably vague)

Sure, we can all currently quote it to our employers until we're blue in the face! However, there's nothing in it to totally prevent anyone working Ghosters etc or any other daft amount of hours because its left up to the individual to decide how capable they are of continuing after working excessive hours.

AWN47 mentions that by law engineers are expected to take a professional attitude with reference to fitness for work etc. All this means is that if there is an incident we can be prosecuted for not following CAA guidelines . We have no legislated protection regarding maximum working hours and its this that needs resolving to level the playing field for everyone across the industry.

I think if some of the punters knew how long Engineers had been on the clock when recovering AOG’s, they would justifiably refuse to fly on the plane!

BE

[Blacksheep]

In the Mil we often worked until we dropped, but then our squadron crews did the same. Later, Vulcan aircrews flew all the way to Port Stanley and back without whinging about crew-duty hours. Their engineers worked through many 'ghosters' preparing the aircraft and improvising lots of local mods along the-way. So, its quite possible that long hours at the wheel aren't as exhausting as they are made out to be. Personally, I reckon disturbed diurnal rythms are the real crippler.

[yamaha]

You engineers are your own worst enemy as usual. You will never have properly regulated hours because too many of you are chasing only the dollar.

Military aircraft with a couple of souls sitting on bang seats does not compare to a 380 with 800 on board.

How do you marry "professional" with some of your colleagues attitude to working hours?

For fare paying passengers only the highest standards will do. As long as truck drivers hours are regulated and yours not, you remain well below what is required before you can call yourself professionals.

[Vortechs Jenerator]

If we were paid a reasonable wage for working regulated hours then I'd do it, of course.

We only chase the "dollar" as living on professional laurels gets a bit tiresome.

I've been "Professional" enough not to have put much of an engineering foot wrong in 23 years Yamaha.

But as I said bring on the regulation AND the required pay increase

[yamaha]

I think you have a problem with reality.

The UK average being around 40,000 I am told is a decent wage for your levels of skills and education. The truth is that many have aquired a taste for a living standard that needs to be fed by 50-60000.

You are living beyond your means and catch up by working all hours god gives.

You are selfish and over rate yourselves. Its a reality check that is required not a larger paycheck

[ratchetspanner]

It seems you are goading for a fight Yamaha........ £40k for our skills and education is below par. I would hazard a guess that you have not had your hand in a waste tank at 4 in the morning trying to remove an airfreshner that a hosty unwittingly put down the lav, knowing that the fair paying public arrive in a hour to fly off on holiday. And another thing, it should not affect your engineering proffessionalism whether their are two military pilots sat on bang seats or 800+ 'civvies' flying half way across the world, well it wouldnt affect my professionalism....................:=

[mono]

I think you have a problem with reality.

The UK average being around 40,000 I am told is a decent wage for your levels of skills and education. The truth is that many have aquired a taste for a living standard that needs to be fed by 50-60000.

You are living beyond your means and catch up by working all hours god gives.

You are selfish and over rate yourselves. Its a reality check that is required not a larger paycheck

Wow. Now that is gonna get a few replies! :}

I think it is you who has a problem with reality Yam! How long did it take you to get your licence and then upgrade it from frozen and start flying? Not 3 years I bet? But that's what happens with engineers. An ab initio licence holder has to wait 3 years before he can be type rated and excercise the privilege of that licence. In that time he will have to attend type courses and then prove he has worked on just about every system on the type before the type will be put on his licence. Though there is no official academic equivalent to the licence, licence holders are able to become Incorporated or Chartered engineers (dependant on seniority and experience) via the RAeS and the EC.

Whilst a pilot is indeed responsible for the 10-800 souls on board while he is in command. An engineer is responsible for ANY componant/inspection he or she may fit/carry out on an aircraft for THE ENTIRE TIME IT IS ON THE A/C or until it is next inspected. If I were to incorrectly install a control actuator and it fails due to my error then I can be prosecuted and even jailed. Even if the failure occurs several months down the line.

An engineers systems knowledge will be far greater than a pilots and quite possibly they will be able to fly too. To top it all the training, etc never stops. There are new types (about 8 weeks for each course), licence integration means that engineers are now multi-trade where they were single trade specialists (each trade qualification may take several months of study, usually self study when off shift). I have taken 6 CAA/EASA licences since getting my initial licence each licence usually comprising 2-3 modules so that's about 15-18 exams with oral exams on top.

Sometimes the lack of understanding of the worth of fellow aviation professionals amazes me??!!

Ah well. Rant over.

:ugh:

:ugh:

[Vortechs Jenerator]

I think you have a problem with reality.

The UK average being around 40,000 I am told is a decent wage for your levels of skills and education. The truth is that many have aquired a taste for a living standard that needs to be fed by 50-60000.

You are living beyond your means and catch up by working all hours god gives.

You are selfish and over rate yourselves. Its a reality check that is required not a larger paycheck

Yamaha = Prick!:)

[yamaha]

MONO thats the sort of answer that may just justify your position but don't get carried away with the being able to fly bit.

As a bunch you need to start driving in the same direction if you ever want to get out of the mess you lot are in.

Sticking your hand down a toilet isn't going to justify high wages nor are mindless responses that any "troll" can write such as smudgethecat going to further your cause. If you want the wages, prove that you are professional!


:ok:vortechs generator once again proving why you will never make it
when will you ever learn

[woptb]

Yamaha,your posts are shot through with unfounded assertions & assumptions.
Luckily not being in a mess, I am able to demonstrate my professionalism (& be handsomely rewarded!) on a daily basis.
Having little idea regarding the education, skills & capabilities required of an aircraft engineer & seemingly less about the practicalities involved in maintenance is no basis on which to pontificate.

Having met the best & worst, both in the air & on the ground, I find a personal assessment is the best basis on which to form an opinion
Those who judge or condemn through lack of knowledge, prejudice & consequently; stupidity, do so using their own 'compromised' standards.

[yamaha]

You still haven't caught on have you.

It is not about, I can, I did, I am. That attitude keeps engineers down, it's exactly that attitude that ignores common sense on working hours and places others at risk, as just one example.

The quicker you start talking we did, we can, we are as a team, the quicker you all will have a bigger part of the pie.

You know that pie that "we" flight crews take a much larger slice from because we realised years ago that you cannot beat a good team.

Think about it

[Flightmech]

Yamaha = Organ

[4on/4off]

Not to worry. Soon Yamaha and all his gang will be replaced by black boxes just as Flt engineers and Navigators have been. UAV's are a reality and it is only time before pilots will be a dying breed. The beancounters will see to that. However engineers will be around for ever!!!

[yamaha]

look at the smart language from a bunch individuals claiming they are worth more.

The public will never accept an pilotless cockpit.
The public have already accepted a downgrading of maintenance by virtue of JAA/EASA superstores and the continuous downgrading of your status.

I have never forgotten my roots (mechanic) and would love to see you guys earning more but you are your own worst enemy.

Just read the posts and you should be able to see for yourselves unless of course your heads are where they shouldn't be.

[woptb]

When they said pilotless they probably meant one pilot less!
Try employing an argument not based upon the "some of my best friends are........."school of discourse,it only demonstrates your lack of respect and speaking frankly I also doubt your mechanical pretensions!

[Mr.Brown]

It is a well known fact that engineers never stick together.Its just the kind of people we are. Having to work on many different types in one day in a line enviornment is not easy. It takes a different kind of person to do that, being responsible for 1000's of people in any one day and millions of pounds worth of aircraft is a lot of pressure on a person. And in the Hangar, stripping an aircraft to almost its bare bones and putting it back together in a matter of weeks is nothing short of a miracle.

A pilot is responsible for his/her aircraft and follows routine routine routine. It takes a different kind of person to be able to do the same mundane things day in day out for weeks on end and have the ability to respond/react in a safe manner when it all goes wrong, being responsible for a couple of hundred people in one day is alot of pressure also.

Personally i think its essential that pilots hours are restricted as their job is sooooo boring (to me) that any more hours and they'd be up there with dentists (shoe laces and belts removed). But thats only a personal opinion, I couldn't do it for a living. Now Hand gliding, thats fun!!!!
It takes two different kind of people to maintain and operate aircraft commercially from day to day. Engineers are one type and pilots another. Hats off to both.

[Koprun]

Well, I've been in aviation maintenance for the past 20 years (including the 4 year apprenticeship) and most of it (for about about 14 years) was with 'line stations' section which was mainly relieving my line station based colleagues when they're on leave etc. and of course the 'flying spanner' duties ... which in 2006 included several charter/extra flts doing the KUL/BAH/DXB/KUL sector for a total of approx 22-23 hours in the crappy business class cabin of an A330 (seats only recline up to 45deg or so):ugh:
.... me and some of the other unlucky 'flying spanners' who got picked for the flts met 3 different sets of tech + cabin crew during the trip (they only did 1 sector each) and by the time we got home we were practically out cold :zzz:. That's the kind of cr@p we 'spanners' have to live with 24/7 just because we're the 'behind the scenes' guys. I fully agree if a legal limit is implemented for LAEs' duty time.

[plasticmerc]

I hear you! "spanners" just exist we are taken for granted. I bet in the eyes of management they think the o/t and daily allowances that we get makes up for what we give up. our nice homes (anythings got to be better than a hotel room) and how much resteraunt food can you eat its all the same after a while and lest not forget probably the most important FAMILY!

We as engineers as stated in this thread never stick together there is always someone that wants to suck up to management someone always trying to get ahead of the rest and in most cases someone that will work for cheaper rates just for a foot in the door. In engineering we all back stab each other to get a type course so that we can get that next rating but all pilots are type rated from day one all get the same courses.
Maybe it should be mandatory that all engineers should be given type courses as well. we as a whole need to show ourselves more respect and stand up for what we want.
Sure its a nice thing you can increase your take home pay with a few hours of o/t but wouldn't be better to get more wthout the o/t.

I believe we as licensed engineers should be paid for the knowledge we have, and I believe we should have max hours of duty just like pilots our job is just as critical as any in this industry, if we make a mistake it don't matter how good the crew is you've got problems!
We should be paid respective of time and knowledge.

when you compare pays with pilots ie captain on type=lic. eng on type who earns more whats the difference. I'm talking base pays only.
even when you add o/t I bet the pilot earns more and does less hours!

there is no comparison between an engineer who is/has been rated on type for 10years and a pilot of equal qualifications on the same type.(annual income)

I believe for to long engineers have been the worst enemy of the engineer.

[Oleo Sayer]

Can I just chip in here? I am a reasonably young fully qualified engineer, or "line certifying technician" as we're now officially known, I love my job. I have lots of intelligent professional friends who I know earn less than me, 90% of working people in the UK earn less than 48k, FACT. This puts most certifying staff in the UK in or around the top 10% of earners! For this money I enjoy a laid back atmosphere in my work place, a sense of purpose, plenty of time off a lot of it outside of weekends (and the masses of people that go out on them at once) I see more daylight than most office types and my job is physical so i'm not getting bed sores from an office chair. I have two holidays a year minimum, I drive a decent (ahem) car and I regularly eat out, if people find out what I do in conversation they are interested. In short, my life is good and my job is good. I know what a bad job is like and this isn't it! I would like to add that at the line station I work at, I rest assured that if the engineers didn't play ball the operation would literally grind to a halt, no exaggeration. So come on engineers, big up yourself and enjoy what you've got!

[Vortechs Jenerator]

If it's a wage thing.....

As a Licensed Contractor, I earn 3.5 times FO & 1.8 times Capt salary at my current location.

You'll seldom find me moaning about money - except how to keep it off Johnny tax man:)

[boeing_eng]

Oleo Sayer, you are missing the real point of this thread. The content of your post is exactly what management in any airline think about Engineers (ie we earn too much and do to little!):O

The issue of maximum working hours for our industry is a serious matter which urgently needs addressing to give us the protection that flight crews have. It’s obvious that any move to sort this will not come from the Airlines. Until we can at last act professionally together as a group to try and resolve this, there will always be those who will happily continue to work ridiculous hours to line their pockets

I saw the program about 90% of the UK population earning less than 48K!! However, am I the only one that thinks that a lot more than 10% seem manage to drive flash cars and have very nice houses!? (What the program didn't mention was the statistics for how many self employed in the UK don't pay a lot of Tax!)

[Oleo Sayer]

...erm, i may have drifted off of the point a little. I don't think things are so bad? there is always something to moan about, what i'm saying is that things are good for us, dwell on the positives. Moves by management to cut staff numbers are suicidal due to the nature of the beast, ie one minute ten blokes on a line drinking their 25th cup of tea trimming toenails with their leathermans, the next minute 3 gone on a AOG, two sickies, 3 down route and two running around like lunatics with lifejackets and such! we ARE needed, the thing is not to overstretch ourselves, we must always hang back just that little bit, do too much and its expected in the future. I'm not saying be a slacker, just don't do heroics and don't over-gobble on the o/t. Let demand out-weigh supply... am i making sense?....:ok: Oh and about people in shiny motors, I know who bloke who lives in a very modest house and earns little, however he drives a very shiny audi because in his line of work the status thing is v. important, see him in the street and you would assume he wipes his ars@ on fifties, the truth is far from it. Any fool can get finance.

[Blacksheep]

In the end the regulator will bite. My last airline were acquiring a new type and when the application for a variation to the AOC was submitted, the airworthiness unit of the regulator refused to accept the plans for maintenance. They required that maintenance be outsourced until sufficient qualified staff, tooling and support facilities were in place. An expensive option given that the nearest MRO with capability on the type was two hours flying time away and not located at a scheduled destination for that type. One wonders how much the beanies think they have saved by shaving all slack out of the maintenance crews.

Maintenance is seen by the bean-counters as nothing but an undesirable cost to be cut to the bone. As long as employers can get away with cutting staff levels to the minimum levels (for that's what the regulations are) accepted by the regulators, engineers will remain overworked and underpaid.

The reality that good maintenance ensures aircraft availability and keeps 'the production line' flowing at full capacity is lost upon those who have no training or experience in production engineering or planning.

[Rigga]

"They required that maintenance be outsourced until sufficient qualified staff, tooling and support facilities were in place."

...and well done by those Regulators too!

This is a prime example of Airlines and MRO bosses thinking that "Regulators" are long gone - and that the engineers will just do what is needed as an afterthought.

The main reason engineers are paid relatively so low is because the majority of the wage bill goes to the front-end drivers.

Engineers are easier to cut from a tight budget and perceived as easy to contract out (but later proves to be a false economy - as Michael O'Leary has learned)

As most companies employ not nearly enough engineers to do the required tasks; we have to work overtime, which shows up in budget costs, proving that more engineers are needed! However budget-readers just try to cut the overtime and, therefore, eventually fail to meet tasks due to maintenance failures.

The blame for all this lies squarely with operators (normally pilots) bleating about maintenance costs but the engineers get the brunt of it for daring to do (or not to do) overtime.

In the end - We engineers cannot placate all of the regulations, aspirations and implications imposed on us - so we just please ourselves!

[plasticmerc]

It will initially recruit 280 cabin crew and 100 pilots to operate the airline's first three Boeing 777-300ER aircraft (absract from the australian newspaper regarding V Aust. virgins new int carrier from OZ)


I wander how many engineers have been hired?
this is for 10 flights a week!

[JamesA]

Yamaha,
I take it you are sitting in a front seat, not that it matters when you come to a sudden stop such as against a mountainside. Just think for one moment - How much do you think your life is worth?
I am a certifying engineer and it is not impossible for me to sign out six 747s in one shift. Say 400 POB times six divided by my daily rate (and I am on a good rate), and your carcass is valued in cents, use the US ones as it looks a bit more.
Nowadays, I see the rate for 'instrument managers' ( the words of a captain)is coming down. I know some companies who pay maintenance more than pilots, (is this your problem?) So get off your high horse that you are worth a lot and the 'benders of the wrenches' should be thankful for what they get. Get back on the theme and either give an opinion of whether you think engineers hours should be regulated for safety, or sit in your seat and hope the man/woman who did whatever was not too tired to do it properly. As Smudge says don't start an us and them, you sound a pitiful character who wants to show you have climbed out of one hole into another. (allbeit better paid for less hours).

[eng123]

James, take our friend yamaha for what he is....a clown.:sad:, although I do find him quite amusing.

As for working hours, I for one would hate it to be regulated. I am a B1 certifyer with a LCC, working in line maintenance with a 12 hour 2 day/2 night 4 off shift pattern. Basic wage with shift pay/approval pay etc is good. Put in a few hours o/t and the money is excellent.

These days, at least in the company I work for, shifts longer than 12 hours unless you are down route for an AOG are unheard of. All the extra hours overtime are on rostered days off. I compare this to years ago whilst working for Dan Air when ghosters were common. We even used to work ''reverse ghosters''! That was working a 12 hour dayshift after a 12 hour nightshift. Now that was a killer :zzz:

Overtime is an option. You can take it or leave it. I personally enjoy this option of an extra grand a month if I want to buy something.

At the moment, we as licenced engineers/technicians/mechanics (whatever :rolleyes:) are in demand. I look through the back pages of Flight International and every month there is a job that I could fill if ever the need arises. I personally feel contented by this and am pleased that experienced engineers are in demand. The fact that craft apprenticeships were abandoned by the major carrier's in the 90's have strenghtened our position no end. We should all be gratefull.

[Firebird]

Good post eng123.
Canada is also hurting for Engineers and that gives all of us a good feeling. We still have a lot of companies that do not want to pay for good help so they get exactly what they pay for. To find people now a days with a 24/7 atitude is getting harder and harder. I still work by the old school only because that is what I have done for the past 35 years.