U.S. Immigration and old Visas

[IO540]

I trained in the USA 2 years ago; did the IR there.

When I visited the USA again recently (1st time since the IR) Immigration spotted the long lapsed flight training Visa in my passport. You could see the man's 2 braincells revolving at 5rpm.... 9/11 and all that... He claimed that he had information saying that I did not complete the study (learnt to fly but not to land, perhaps??) and I got taken to a special terrorist interrogation facility (well not quite but the 2nd lot were crude even by normal U.S. Immigration standards) where more time was wasted.

Luckily I had 3hrs before the connecting flight so made it OK, but it is a word of warning for people still carrying an old flight training Visa in their passport. It draws a lot of attention!

I suggested to the officers that they can get onto faa.gov and check my name and the IR instantly but they claimed they do not have the facility to access the internet. They said that I must tell the school to tell them that I finished - does anybody have the reference for that?

The TSA (the xray operators etc) is very efficient in comparison.

[znww5]

So what SoCal is saying, is that when IO540 provided a substantial amount of money to the US economy 2 years ago in order to train, it is reasonable for him to be put to significant inconvenience at a later date because the American training company couldn't follow their own national rules? He, on the other hand, living several thousand miles away, is supposed to be wholly conversant with the nuances of American paper-shuffling.

Interesting comment regarding it being IO540's responsibility to prove his innocence - whatever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty' in the 'land of the free'?

The fact is that US immigration is notorious for its huge queues and ignorant staff, this is yet another of many examples so it is hardly surprising that US tourism is down 20%.

[IO540]

Thank you SoCal, I will write to them. I don't recall filling in any such form but TBH I don't remember and it could be Immigration who lost it somewhere.

On znww5's comment, I can confirm that with a 90 minute queue before even reaching the immigration desk, everybody would have missed a reasonably spaced connecting flight. I am sure the airlines are tearing their hair out over this because it affects them badly. Not to mention both 777 flights carrying about 30 people.

[RollNow!]

whatever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty' in the 'land of the free'?

Couldnt agree more. Have heard a few stories about US boarder control causing problems dispite people declaring there intentions, advanced PAX info, finger print and retinal scans (insane!!! on that last part imo).

I can understand the tie in with the flying and the reasons for them asking questions but there has to be a failsafe. Pax are not always the most prepared people at the best of times especialy when they are stumped with something like that. Its bizaare actually as a new passport restriction has apparently come into place today reagarding british passports.

As for one of the most technologicaly well equipped nations on this planet & the funding that goes into US BC i find it hard to believe that there was no "access to the internet". Thats what i mean by a failsafe... there should be a way of checking aviation records on hand for pilots, ex pilots and trainees. Thus avoiding the spanish inquisition for hours :(:ugh:

[stray10level]

How can you know what is and isnt on the record for yourself in the US of A? If you made any enquiries to that end you would probably singled out for trying to gain knowledge of the inner sanctum of the yellow Jacket Master:yuk:
I have heard different levels of "Security!" prevail at the different ports of entry:=

[RollNow!]

Sorry if this mildly hijacks the post i dont mean to.

The passport thing is apparently to do with ones issued between certain dates from 05 - 06. If you have a passport issued within those dates (the specific dates escape me at the mo) you have to have an issued visa and are not included in the US VWP (visa waver programe). Think its down to dogey passport copies but imo it wont be long before its new issued chip passports only anyway.

[IO540]

SoCal

You are right. I logged into https://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov and found that I have

"Training Not Completed"

against one entry. But there should have been only one entry. There are two. The one 'not completed' I had completely forgotten about; it refers to another school which was using a UK instructor as their "agent" and he basically lost the I-20 (it was delivered to his home when he was abroad). I abandoned that process and changed to another school.

I will try to contact that school but I doubt they will communicate. They never did previously, only doing it via this instructor.

A pity U.S. Immigration are unable to access this info (they must have got some condensed version of it) and just end up sticking you into a room where some dumb person shouts at you across the room.

[BackPacker]

Interesting stuff. I'll add this to the "JAA PPL in the US" thread. And I'll check it out for myself.


The passport thing is apparently to do with ones issued between certain dates from 05 - 06. If you have a passport issued within those dates (the specific dates escape me at the mo) you have to have an issued visa and are not included in the US VWP (visa waver programe). Think its down to dogey passport copies but imo it wont be long before its new issued chip passports only anyway.

I remember that the US, at a certain point in time, required all passports, of all nationalities, of people that want to apply for the Visa Waiver Program, to contain certain biometric information. If your passport was issued later than a certain cutoff date, but did not contain the required biometric data, you could not enter the US under the Visa Waiver Program and had to obtain a visa. Not all countries made the US-imposed deadline and thus if you have a passport issued between X (the US cutoff date) and Y (the date the UK started putting the proper biometrics in your passport), you've got to apply for a visa.

Or, at least, it was something along those lines. I haven't been back in the US since I did my flying training there and my passport dates back from way before the cutoff date (and hasn't expired yet) so the exact details are a bit irrelevant to me.

Edited to say that it was not about biometrics, but about machine readability. Biometrics will be required in the future, I think, hence my confusion.

Official information here:

http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html

[derekf]

IO,

Just contact the TSA using the link on that website you quoted and I'm sure they'll sort it for you. I've emailed them a couple of times with queries atc and they've always been exceptionally helpful.

[englishal]

The fact is that US immigration is notorious for its huge queues and ignorant staff,
To be fair to the US, we should take a very careful look at what is happening at home before having a go at the US.

At Christmas I went through Chicago, and I was through immigration and through Customs in 30 mins. LAX is not too bad either, about 45 mins in November. The last few times the INS guy was very polite, though I have met a few grumpy b'stards in my time (and have been for a "second" interview and threatened with deportation, but that was only fair seeing as I was working there without a proper visa :O)

But last time I arrived back at Heathrow I was standing waiting in a massive queue for an hour, then grilled by "UK Boarder" (with a Jamaican accent) on where I had been. I felt like telling him to f*ck off and mind his own business.

Last time I left Heathrow in Jan I was body scanned AND metal detetcted and stuck in the queue for security. I was one of the lucky ones selected for a "random" body scan.

So unfortunately with this new eBoarders initiative to fight "terrorism" we're all going to be subjected to long queues coming back into our OWN country! Maybe someone should tell them that the terrorists were actually British!

[SIERRA ECHO XRAY]

The INS chap who held you for questioning was following procedure and "YES" a flight training 1-20 or VISA draws too much attention :E It happened to me twice when travelling out of the States. And I hated the fact that I was put in the same interrogation room for further questioning. I felt as if I was a terrorist. And adding insult to injury, my paperwork was up to date...:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[powerless]

Thread creep!
If you use the IRIS scheme at UK airports the delay arriving back into the UK is very short. Lonest queue I have had at Heathrow is two people ahead of me and you don't have to deal with a person at all. Sign up on the way out first time took about 15 mins. Worst in US last year was 3 hours 10 mins at IAD.

[IO540]

The TSA advise me that since the "training not completed" was put on there by the school (the one I never trained at), they cannot remove it.

So, it's "terrorist interrogation" for me every time I enter the USA in the future.

I have asked the TSA for a covering letter which could be shown to US Immigration if necessary.

This is a lesson to anybody who had been in communication with a US school, for the I-20 process started, but never got as far as even commencing training with that school. This is quite easy to do in error because, for example, you can open up a training request on the TSA website with practically any US school, but only Part 141 schools can issue an I-20.

[L'aviateur]

Last year I was regularly flying to/from Seattle using the visa waiver scheme, a week later I re-entered the country using my C1-D for work, and was subject to the baggage searches, interrogation, checks etc. Seemed that having a visa which required interviews, checks and references seems to make it harder to travel! I'e also had the same problems in Miami and New York, but never on visa waiver!

[englishal]

C1-D is only for crew in transit (maritime, aviation etc...). If you try to enter for a holiday or something with a C1-D then they may get suspicious, of if you are actually working in the USA.

[david viewing]

A friend of mine had the same problem entering the US from the Queen Mary! Apparently they were very apologetic when releasing him from what he calls the 'naughty room'.

Doubtless this steadily ratcheting complexity will take a significant toll on US tourist (as opposed to 'terrerist') income over time, perhaps far more costly than the problem it's supposed to counter.

[Ye Olde Pilot]

I hope so.
I'm not going to jump through all those 'security' hoops as if I am some sort of terrorist. ( CIA etc gonna log this message with those words:\
If US residents have to go through the same,as they soon will,things might take a turn for the better.

I spent a lot of flying time in the USA in the 80's and 90's.

There are other parts of the world that are better and offer decent immigration staff who welcome you with a smile.

Bush and his Texas red necks have stuffed the USA.:ugh:

[IO540]

The USA tourist trade will be the loser in all this. Already, most self proclaimed European intellectuals (who are mostly left leaning) don't like America :)

And I am sure the airlines are well cheesed off about this, because a 1.5hr immigration queue will ensure that at least 3/4 of the passengers will miss the next connecting flight.

What is interesting however is that some people here appear to be saying that it is the visibility of an old Visa in one's passport that triggers this reaction, rather than the fact (held on a computer somewhere) that you once held such a Visa.

[DFC]

If you want to avoid the immigration q on arrival in the US then simply fly via Dublin.

Dublin has US immigration on site. You enter the US as you board the aircraft. Worst case scenario is a q behind your fellow passengers on 1 flight.

On arrival in the US, you pass straight through. Worth any extra flight cost.

Great idea and I am surprised that the UK never managed to have such a system in place.

Regards,

DFC

[englishal]

One thing about visas.....the INS get suspicious if you hold a visa and come from the UK or some other European state. The reason is that as a member of the Visa Waiver program, the only people who NEED visas are those that are doing some sort of work / training but more importantly those who don't qualify under the VW rules....i.e. criminals....If you have a criminal conviction (depending on what type) you must get a visa before travel.

The UK is going down the same route (only worse) as far as I can see. In the future I'll probably have to stump up a few grand as a "bond" for my father-in-law to visit from the USA if the numpties in government have their way :hmm: Me and the wife were actually discussing whether it is now time to leave the UK or not......

[Mike Echo]

You don't need to be a criminal or training to need a visa!
You also need a Visa if you need to go to the US as a passenger aboard a private aircraft. I am always asked why I have a Visa but have not had a problem (yet!) once I've explained. A lot of the immigration officers I've met seemed unaware that a visa was required if entering aboard a private aircraft?
Other members of our staff find they are useful going from the US around the Caribbean as they don't have to stick to the schedules and airlines participating in the visa waiver program.
Mike Echo

[effortless]

I have to have a visa due to my work experience. They don't like some of me previous employers.

[dublinpilot]

If you want to avoid the immigration q on arrival in the US then simply fly via Dublin.

Dublin has US immigration on site. You enter the US as you board the aircraft. Worst case scenario is a q behind your fellow passengers on 1 flight.

On arrival in the US, you pass straight through. Worth any extra flight cost.

Only applicable on some Dub-USA routes, and only on some airlines.

It's unlikely the time saved in immigration will be less than the time cost in getting a connecting flight from the UK to Dub etc.