IR compared to IMC?

[liam548]

I might be talking rubbish but what are the main differences between these two?

Liam

[FullyFlapped]

Quite a lot of study and some exams, about 40 hours of practical training and about £10k.

OK OK, I'm going ... ;)

[liam548]

Ok I take it from that that someone who is wanting to end up a full ATPL would not bother with the IMC.

I was reading with interest the other thread about where the IMC is likely to end up.

Liam

[ThePirateKing]

Quite a lot of study and some exams, about 40 hours of practical training and about £10k.

And a Class 1 vs Class 2 medical making the former totally inaccessible to anyone who can't pass a Class 1 medical.

[derekf]

And a Class 1 vs Class 2 medical making the former totally inaccessible to anyone who can't pass a Class 1 medical.

Not quite correct for an IR. Class 2 medical with Class 1 audiogram - hearing standards and info at http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=49&pagetype=90&pageid=533

[Shunter]

I know plenty of guys flying for the airlines who got IMC ratings during their hour-building. The IMC conveys substantial privileges for not that much money, and when kept current is a great addition to a PPL.

A bit bumpy at 1500ft? No problem; up through the clouds and smooth as silk.
Caught in the rain en route and door seals not 100%? See above.
Unforecast weather making approach a no-no at your destination and need to divert to an ILS equipped airport in poor viz? Not a problem.

The IMC transformed my flying and cut the amount of cancelled trips by about 75%. I once took off from a small grass strip in 2000m viz, entered cloud at 800ft, came out on top at FL055 and sat in the sun all the way home to break cloud at 350ft on the ILS at my home field.

It's well worth doing. Only caveats are no class A airspace, UK only, and 1800m min viz for take-off/landing.

Just make sure you remember how ice works if you plan to use it in the colder months!

[stickandrudderman]

You'll find it a LOT easier studying the ATPL manuals if you've already done an IMC and have half a clue what it's all about.
Much easier to relate the diagrams having already flown them!

[Tony Hirst]

Ok I take it from that that someone who is wanting to end up a full ATPL would not bother with the IMC.I included the IMC in my hour building, the 25 month currency could be useful as the IR has to be revalidated annually. Agree with SARM too.

[liam548]

thanks for the replies. It makes sense and sort of backs up what i thought. Doesnt make you exempt from doing the full ir but certainly helps as basics are similar.. Liam

[A and C]

For me the IMC was a lot of hard work because it was somthing that was totaly new, however it was education at flying club prices.

The IR was just a matter of bringing my IF skills up to the IR standard, I had to learn very little more........... just lots of practice all charged at professional flying rates.

My advice would to be to do the IMC as providing the training is good you will be able to make all your mistakes at flying club prices, one or two mistakes when flying a twin at professional rates to pay for the IMC twice over.

[ThePirateKing]

Not quite correct for an IR. Class 2 medical with Class 1 audiogram - hearing standards

OK, I wasn't 100% clear. Let me rephrase... if for some medical reason you are unable to get a Night Rating, then you will be unable to get an Instrument Rating even if you have absolutely no inclination to fly at night!

[derekf]

You've lost me now - where does the night rating come into it?

[rustle]

You require a night rating/qualification to aquire an (JAA) IR.

[S-Works]

But that does not make it Class 1 medical standards.

IR requires a Class 2 with an audiogram conducted by your normal AME. The audiogram is conducted to Class 1 standards because they are the only standards for hearing.

Night qualification is nothing to do with medical other than the colour vision requirements.

[englishal]

You require a night rating/qualification to aquire an (JAA) IR.
Are you sure? AFAIK you don't even need a JAA licence to be *issued* the IR. One of my mates did it last year, he was in the process of converting to JAA from FAA, and did the IR before the CPL - and hence ended up with an IR without a licence to attach it to (then he converted the ATP).

[S-Works]

I would be very surprised if that was the case. How do you have an IR with no licence to attach it to? The IR is a ratung not a licence. It may be that they processed the paperwork pending the issue of a licence to attach it to.

Yes you do night a night rating/qualification to get an IR.

[ThePirateKing]

Are you sure?

Yep. From LASORS E1.2:

An applicant for a modular IR(A) course shall be the
holder of a PPL(A) or a CPL(A), either licence to include
the privileges to fly by night, issued in accordance with
ICAO Annex 1. In addition, applicants must hold a
Flight Radio Telephony Operator’s Licence.

[ThePirateKing]

But that does not make it Class 1 medical standards.

IR requires a Class 2 with an audiogram conducted by your normal AME. The audiogram is conducted to Class 1 standards because they are the only standards for hearing.

Night qualification is nothing to do with medical other than the colour vision requirements.

Quite so. In my head, I equate the two, but I know that's not correct. Hence my clarification.

My point was simply that there is a lot of talk about "let's try and get the IMC rating replaced by an accessible IR", but (putting aside the time/money constraints), this will still be inaccessible to some pilots who currently hold an IMC rating.

Therefore, my response to the original poster that the differences aren't just down to training, etc., but that it is possible to obtain one but not the other on medical grounds. (Audiogram also being one of those grounds, of course.)

[englishal]

An applicant for a modular IR(A) course shall be the
holder of a PPL(A) or a CPL(A), either licence to include
the privileges to fly by night, issued in accordance with
ICAO Annex 1.

Oh right. Doesn't say JAA though, and I guess the FAA ATP includes night.....

[S-Works]

As does the FAA PPL..... Alaska excepted.

[IO540]

There are other differences JAA v. FAA that are significant for many people.

The CAA Class 1 audiogram (and indeed much of the CAA Class 1 medical) has a demonstrated ability option which you can invoke on any renewal.

You then get e.g. unlimited uncorrected vision, and unlimited hearing loss, and you can fly commercial as an ATPL on that.

The problem for many is that the JAA initial medical has no demonstrated ability route, whereas e.g. the FAA medical does. It does not make sense to have an initial medical different to a renewal medical, if you think about it.

On the colour vision for example, the FAA allows you to take the demo ability as far as recognising standard tower lights, which is not a problem for the vast majority of pilots who can see all the normal colours one sees in normal life, but would otherwise fail the Isihara and even the Lantern Test.

To answer an earlier question, there is little point in somebody working to be an airline pilot to do the IMCR unless they intend to fly privately also. The whole drift of airline pilot training nowadays is to go away from the traditional "self improver" route to a quick integrated course, mostly in a simulator, and then straight into the RH seat. The airline pilot needs to not have a clue about GA flying.

[S-Works]

The airline pilot needs to not have a clue about GA flying.

Which is indeed good news. There is no point in forcing people who are only interested in driving a people tube down the GA route. Separate is how it should be with airline pilots sponsored and trained for the job from day 1 and GA developed as utility aviation with career instructors etc.

[BackPacker]

There is a caveat for Alaska.
1) You have to receive the flight training in Alaska
2) You have to reside in Alaska

Then you MUST obtain the night training within 12 months of the certificate being issued - otherwise the Certificate in its entirety becomes invalid for all flying privileges.

See FAR 61.110

Is that because in Alaska, for months on end, it doesn't legally become "night"? So you can defer your night rating until you can find a time and place where it becomes legally "night"?

What was the definition of "night" again for Alaska? Something with the center of the disc being six degrees below the horizon or something?

[S-Works]

bose-x
Quote:
As does the FAA PPL..... Alaska excepted.
There is a caveat for Alaska.
1) You have to receive the flight training in Alaska
2) You have to reside in Alaska

Then you MUST obtain the night training within 12 months of the certificate being issued - otherwise the Certificate in its entirety becomes invalid for all flying privileges.

See FAR 61.110

Yes I know, that was why I was making the point before some smart arse came along and pointed out technically you could have an FAA PPL without flight at night.

[RVFlyer]

I have no interest in commercial aviating, but the IR is a personal goal.

Does anyone have an opinion on getting an IMC followed by conversion training to FAA IR then to JAA IR, merely for self improvement with the added bonus of greater privileges?

[derekf]

RVFlyer,

That's the route I took (currently FAA IR holder and now converting to JAA IR).

The reason I went down the FAA route is that we purchased an N-reg aircraft.

With hindsight, if I didn't have an N-reg aircraft, I'd have gone straight down the JAA IR route and not bothered with the FAA (assuming I was able to meet the additional medical requirements outlined above).

[IO540]

Unfortunately one is comparing two moving targets: FAA IR done in the USA, probably pre-9/11, with JAA IR done here in the UK today. Or, FAA IR done in the UK today, with the problems with FAA examiner availability and a host of other issues, versus a JAA IR done here in the UK today.

Today, based on what I have seen, the JAA IR ground school is probably 5x more study than the FAA IR, but the added hassle of any flight training in the USA changes the picture significantly for many people.

It however remains true that the "best hours credit" route remains

IMCR
FAA IR (full credit given for all IMCR training and all solo instrument time)
JAA IR (credit given for previous ICAO IR training, all but 15hrs in the UK)

The IMCR represents excellent value to a UK PPL who needs a significant mission capability improvement. For UK IFR flying, the full IR adds little beyond that unless one has access to (and the budget for) a much more capable plane than the average rental spamcan.

There are indications of a substantial PPL/IR theory reduction and I have this on good authority, but have to say that this has been "just around the corner" for as long as I have been flying, yet the European IR has got harder at every modification, for as many years as anybody I know has been flying. All attempts at simplification have been smartly crippled before implementation. One has to wait and see. However, I would not do the JAA IR today unless I had an actual need - it isn't likely (IMHO) to get any harder under EASA and it could well get easier.