World shortage of rotary pilots

[BolkowBill]

Not sure if anyone else saw any of the articles floating around a year or so ago that quoted the reason for the alleged shortage as the mandatory retirement of the last of the Vietnam era US pilots.
I found this a bit unlikely until I read the figures (this is from memory):
in 1973 the US military had, in all four services (counting the Marines as a seperate entity) over 40,000 active helicopter pilots (the word used was aircrew so not sure if this includes crew chiefs, gunners and winchmen etc).
By 1978 they had less than 8,000. Whilst this gap has been partially closed by the wholesale adoption of air-mobility they've never since got anywhere near the numbers of pilots seen during the Vietnam conflict.
Those pilots who left in the mid-70s were able to fill the rapidly-expanding commercial rotary industry but the recent loss of the same pilots has led to vacancies arising in great numbers in the US resulting in those recently qualified Americans who'd been forced to look abroad for work heading home and therefore leaving great big gaps in the job-market in the still-growing overseas industries.
Good news for the newbies and those fancying a change of climate but are there more serious, long-term implications?
Just one to knock around the crewroom...... hang on, that sounds like a thirsty paramedic; kettle duties call!

[ATPMBA]

Bristow recently bought HAI and another school located in Louisiana. They are concerned about the pipeline (no pun intended) of new pilots to service their offshore oil contracts. They are not acquiring flight schools out of kindness of their heart but it all has to do with money. They have to have pilots to service their contracts otherwise it will go to another company.

Yes, it is interesting times we live in.

[alouette3]

IMHO, there is no shortage of pilotes. There is ,however, a shortage of qualified pilots worldwide. And ,as ATPMBA, put it , since it is about the money, guess what the companies do? they try to reduce the gap between the low qualified and the need to fill their cockpits by reducing the standards for hiring. We are seeing this in the US today and it will get worse before it levels off.I am not sure if it will get better.
I maybe wrong, but if the companies were willing to pay what should be paid, there wouldn't be a shortage.
Interesting times, indeed.
Alt 3

[Ioan]

I maybe wrong, but if the companies were willing to pay what should be paid, there wouldn't be a shortage.


Looking at it from the perspective of someone very new to this industry that's not so much the issue as that companies seem unwilling to pay for training. Maybe I shouldn't say this, but compared with what a lot of FW guys get paid starting as a FO, the rotary equivalent on the north sea isn't half bad. The problem is that most people aren't going to be able to afford the initial investment required to apply for those jobs in the first place, namely a ME IR(H). There are plenty of CPL(H)s / CPL + FI guys and gals out there who'd snap the hand off anyone offering that rating. I also know half a dozen CPL/IR FW guys who'd pay for a large proportion of their RW conversion tomorrow given the guarantee of a NS job at the end of it

[manfromuncle]

If I had a pound every time someone trotted out the whole "vietnam era pilots retiring, world pilot shortage" story, I'd be a rich man. Every flight school will tell you this myth.

What that don't tell you is there is only a shortage of people with JAA ATPL/IR, IR experience, 1,000 hours turbine, 1,000 hours twin, 500 night, 500 low-level etc. Mainly because it costs £100,000 to get into that position (or ex-mil experience/contacts), and operators are not willing to invest in pilots. Hence the shortage.

[Iain-M]

Someone who has decided to bite the bullet and (part) sponsor is Bond helicopters with their cadet programme.

Could it be something to do with their plans for expansion? Were they concerned about not being able to fill the seats? Or is that completely ludicrous and there are plenty self-sponsored people sitting at home with their ATPL/IR?

[Flingingwings]

To be fair, some operators are willing to invest time and money on inexperienced guys. It's a very small group, but they are out there (and not necessarily offshore either).

That said luck is still the biggest deciding factor in getting that first and/or desirable job :eek:

[Bravo73]

To be fair, some operators are willing to invest time and money on inexperienced guys. It's a very small group, but they are out there (and not necessarily offshore either).

Oh. :O


To reinforce FW's point, have a look at the current ads on Flight Global. One of the UK onshore charter companies (with a certain Egyptian flavour) is currently looking for a FO. Minimum requirement is just a CPL/IR(H).

[muermel]

How much money are you talking about with an IR(H) JAA? I`ve heard it`s expensive but never exact figures. But nevertheless it sounds like an profitable investment when it comes to Northsea job prospects.

bye

[Flingingwings]

If you don't already have a twin rating, about 35-40k :eek:

B73, I can think of two other companies (aside from the one you mention) who've heavily invested in a few low hours guys. In fact even your current employer has funded an IR before.

There are some very good/decent companies out there.:ok: As well as th sharks:(

[Bravo73]

In fact even your current employer has funded an IR before.

Very true indeed. But not for a 200hr newbie. ;)

[A.Agincourt]

malc4d: Hmmm how does it go . .. . . . . . To get a job you need hours, to get the hours you need a job. So please tell, how the F%^"k do you get those 2000 hours muti IR turbine without somebody hiring you ?????
Malc

With considerable difficulty dear chap. You can earn money to pay in lots of ways and of course the holy grail is for some dolt to pay you to learn as you go. That is an extremely rare circumstance. I know someone who devoted their life for nearly 10 years in another totally unrelated employment just to finance their ATPL [drove trucks across deserts]. Now at way past 40, they are very happy sitting proud with loads of twin and a good job. In fact I admire this person greatly. Far more single minded dedication than I.

What you might prefer will almost certainly never happen that is unless you have already a pretty good CV but that sounds unlikely.

I think the current position is a pretty good filter. Only those that can swim upstream fast enough manage to spawn. Keeps the gene pool viable. :}


Best Wishes

[flap flap flap]

I think the current position is a pretty good filter. Only those that can swim upstream fast enough manage to spawn. Keeps the gene pool viable.

That's hardly right. All it means is that mostly those with rich parents/ex-mil-time get the decent jobs.

[Lafyar Cokov]

Why are you lumping those with rich parents and those with ex-mil time together?

I am often quite surprised by the hostility I sometimes witness to ex-mil types in this industry - I taken it some had a unsuccessful attempt at Biggin Hill/Cranwell and now want to take it out on those who were successful. If you think devoting 16 Years of your life to a) Supposedly defending freedom (Although it could be argued that these days that is debatable) b) Being sent to anywhere in the world for an undisclosed amount of time at the whim of a low intelligence politician c) Moving house every three years to keep you on your toes are easy options then I despair!!!

[Flingingwings]

Malc,
LUCK :eek:

No rich parents for me either. Not ex mil. Self funded JAA PPL(H)/CPL(H)/FI and MEIR over a five year period, and all in the UK. Expensive yes, impossible no.

Worked as an FI for 12 months before completing the MEIR rating. I was LUCKY and was employed post IR within three months, I had just over 800TT.

There are heli companies who employ FO's. Most insist on an IR to be considered - very few will help fund it.

B73 has even hinted at a possible direction for that all important first good opportunity, if you have the required qualifications.

[Whirlygig]

There is, of course, another possibility? Go to university, get a good degree, work hard in a lucrative industry, receive diverse pay-offs through redundancies and take-overs, sell house in ridiculously expensive area of country and move somewhere cheap, realising enough through savings and capital to fund up to FI!

Cheers

Whirls

[helicopter-redeye]

I luurv rich girls




h/r;)

[Bravo73]

BUT ... turbine time is impossible to pay for, ( yup no rich dad for me ). So tell all us lowly low timers how to get that first job, point us in the right direction please. :rolleyes:

From a previous post (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3846433#post3846433) by me:


One suggestion - try and find work with an AOC operator/Flying School who operate twins. Although they will obviously have IR pilots on the books, there is still plenty of twin AOC work which is VFR. Do a deal with them on your initial twin rating and then start 'building' your twin time that way. After a few hundred hours on type, an IR is the next logical step.

IIRC, Cabair recently type-rated a number of SE FIs on the AS355 due to a pilot shortage.





Ps. is there such a thing as F/O training as in fixed wing. You know, watch how its done in the real flying world for while from the left/ right seat ?

Yes, but you'll need that IR first. This is in essence how the NS operators operate when they hire a 200hr CPL/IR(H).

And it's not just the offshore operators who do this. See my post (#10 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3900333&postcount=10)) above for more details. (I'm not allowed to post a direct link to the job ad, I'm afraid. Advertising rules etc.)

[Ioan]

There is, of course, another possibility? Go to university, get a good degree, work hard in a lucrative industry, receive diverse pay-offs through redundancies and take-overs, sell house in ridiculously expensive area of country and move somewhere cheap, realising enough through savings and capital to fund up to FI!


:) Doh! Why didn't you tell me that 5 years ago?! :P
Seriously, that was my point though. Any shortage of pilots is going to be not because the jobs aren't paid well enough at the end of it, but that it's still THE only job I can think of off the top of my head where aside from joining the military you're expected to pay a big chunk of £100k to train yourself.
I'm not saying that's a good or a bad thing, and neither am I bitching, it's just the way it is. The result though is that I really can't see there being a real 'shortage'. All a company would have to do is offer training and bang, they've got pilots. Inexperienced to start with maybe, but as long as there's enough experienced ones to go with them, c'est la vie

[g-mady]

Can someone explain to me then why Bonds recent sponsorship scheme required people with no flying experience?

If its about money, and it is, there are lots of PPL's, CPL's out there who would have cost £50,000 less to achieve a CPL IR state and therefore be employable!

Does anyone know why they did this???

MADY

[Iain-M]

Maybe they thought the applicants they were getting weren't the most suited to the job?

With self-sponsored candidates the only ones you have turning up at your door are the ones who decided to take the risk and pay for their own training. Leaving a lot of other people, with the same ambitions/dream, to pursue another path. Maybe Bond wanted to attract that other half.

I have no idea, just a theory. Oh and I failed selection!

[g-mady]

Didn't you have to pay some terrible fee for the privilege too?!!!

[Heliringer]

Malc. You should have done your research before spending the money on a licence. Everyone knows there are hardly any low time jobs out there, However, they do exist.


Cheers
Ringer

[Martin Barclay]

In response to G-Mady ' s point I also would love to know why Bond, or any other company, would rather take on a candidate at the ab-initio stage who may drop out at some point when the going gets tough rather than a candidate who has self funded, often making considerable sacrifices on the way but who does not have any savings (or credit) left to make the last stage. Surely that candidate has demonstrated considerable commitment and determination as well as providing a quicker and lower cost solution to a recruitment requirement. Some of them may be the 'rich kids' mentioned earlier but if they have got a CPL(H) they also have skills, knowledge and ability as well as money.

It is all very well for some to lecture about self funding but once you are at the limit it takes all you can earn just to pay some of it back never mind spending another £40K.

If anyone actually knows the reason for this policy, and I am sure there is a sound one, please let me know.

Martin.

[Whirlygig]

I would suspect that the Bond students are "bonded" at most stages of their training so if they drop out, there may well be penalty. Secondly, it might be that Bond wanted students whom they could mould into the sort of pilots they wanted.

Cheers

Whirls

[manfromuncle]

rich ****s never make it past go because they fail to realise that money cannot buy knowledge.

I know plenty of 'rich kids' who have 'made it', purely on daddy's money.

[Whirlygig]

D'yknow what? I find all this talk of "rich ****s" and "Daddy's money" (can't Mama have any money?) quite offensive. People's circumstances are all individual; just because somebody has had funding from parents does not make them a better or worse person. If somebody's parents worked hard to provide a good life for their children, what the hell is wrong with that?

Yes, my father will be paying for my instrument rating. But, know what? I would actually rather he was still alive instead.

Cheers

Whirls

[g-mady]

Whirls,

I disagree about the "moulding" thing. A PPL and even CPL needs alot of Moulding!
I mean its crazy to think a PPL/CPL is so stuck in his ways at 200hrs that hes beyond hope and never to be recovered or employable by the North sea.

They can mould me.....!!! :{

MADY

[check]

g-mady,

I'm afraid I'm with Whirls on this one. They can be moulded in Bonds image so to speak and are more likely to follow the "part line" than a standard joiner.

I speak as an ex Bonder from before they were Bond, that said however there was a lot of brand loyalty amongst the staff.