New rostering rules at EK

[menard]

New restriction inserted in the bidding system limiting the amount of days off in the top bid groups.

To balance off days between top and bottom bids?

Or, to prevent commuting?

Or, so it doesn't offend high management when they see pilots with more than 3 off days in a row?

Comments? Good? Bad?

I think Bad.

[330 Man]

It is beyond bad. And to not have the balls to tell the truth is even worse. Blaming it on GCAA safety regulations is a wimp out for Mr. Ed. He should have the guts to tell the truth: AAR ,AS and the rest of Sr. Management just can not stand the thought of top bid groups working only 12 days a month. We all know that is the reason. We have been hearing the rumors for years about "manual insertions" in the rosters to avoid too many days off in a row.

I will not be answering my phone!

Regards,

330 Man

[7x7]

Loved the positive spin he put on the letter, saying how it would be more fair to the lower bid groups.
.
.
.
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But wait a minute... isn't today's lower bid group next month's top bid group?

Nice try, Ed, (or the PR weenie who wrote it for you), but it didn't wash with me.

[Scudrunner]

I bet the 'duty of care' bit goes out of the window the next time DXB is fogged in!

GCAA directive my round, peachy a**e

Hoorah...turnrounds for all!

[jet576]

Ed is basically saying instead of having a nice roster every 2 months out of 5. you will now have 0. thanks ed:D

emirates is not getting enough guys as it is.. NOW they've made it worse.

[mensaboy]

What really gets me is the claim that this is being done as a safety measure. What a load of crap. If they really cared about safety wrt fatigue, many of our flights and layovers would not be happening at all. And also, underlining ''Manual Insertions'' in an attempt to mislead those not knowing..... into believing that this is something the company tries to avoid. NOT !

I just don't buy any of this propaganda. Who was complaining about the disparity in days off anyhow??? Everyone has always complained that the bidding system does not work and if the company would only stop manually inserting trips and altering schedules, then it probably would work !

I suspect this is just one more method to increase our workload. I have no doubt that they ran scenarios and reran past months to see if they could scrape out some more work from us and obviously it worked.


The only thing the company sees is the string of days off in a row that we sometimes can achieve. They view this as wrong but they do not look at the preceding months of horrendous schedules and have no concept of how difficult this can be. Over time multiple time zones, and round the clock flying sucks the life out of anyone. The odd string of days off had in the past alleviated these effects, but now that is gone.

Will they stop at nothing now?

[SOPS]

Top or Bottom bid..end result noone is happy..except the people that thought this up as a good idea....:ugh:

(And is EKM about to gloat??)

[helen-damnation]

my management team and I cannot shy away from our GCAA-mandated obligation to operational safety

Interesting n'est pas:=

Where was the interest when factoring was around?

Where was the safety when Bush and the bad weather arrived and CC were called at 2am to come to the crew center, but told not to sign on until their normal 6am start?

More crisis management I feel :mad::ugh:

[pissedoffpilotek]

one of Ed's points from his letter.....

"The number of ULR flight segments will increase to 7 by the end of this financial year versus 1 last year"

Last year wasn't the 340 doing JFK x 2 as well as a SYD and MEL.

At this point it was very easy to manage the rosters...most of the pilots were at 900 hrs and it was fairly easy to get decent rosters so that most people were happy...albeit a bit tired.

So not really a very valid reason.

[The Real Pink Baron]

OWW That hurts,
Sorry got to nip down to the 7/11 to get some more KY!
Why don't we all ring up these people (AAR,TCAS,ED,ETC) on their home numbers (from public phones) at 0200- 0500 and just say " Good morning this is your lazy pilot".
After about two weeks of this we will see if they change their attitude
Can someone please provide a list of home phone numbers?

[PositiveRate876]

If the Max Days Off are capped at 14 (16-2=14)

Does it mean that the Min Days Off will be capped at 11 (9+2=11)?


All 'tweaking' of the Bid Optimiser should not be done on a live roster affecting 1900 people.

I don't like the sound of "Let's give it a try for a few months, and see what happens"!!! :=

[atiuta]

Average days off increased to 11 in bottom bid? Not a chance.

[yankee22]

So much for lifestyle and the odd string of days off. I smell trouble coming down the pipe.... unbelievable. Just when ya think it couldn't worse.... :ugh:

Inflation, poor schedules, increased flying, decreased take home pay..... when will it stop!!! I thought things were supposed to get better with time... not worse.

What next???????????????????????????????????????

[dusty777]

Screwing with roster is cheaper than fixing the airplanes....

Before we talk about changing rosters for safety, How about getting the curtains for cabin crew on a PER trip installed..

How about proper Cockpit crew rest facilities, ie a chair for sitting in as opposed to lying in a bunk unable to sleep for 6-8 hours on a ULR.. No seats for us no rest facitlites for F?A's.
GCAA regs, me arse.

Anybody had the interview with KE or JET lately?

[ernestkgann]

I haven't but I guess that's the proverbial straw!

[PositiveRate876]

Before we talk about changing rosters for safety, How about getting the curtains for cabin crew on a PER trip installed..


That was never their intention, since they knew that it would revert to a 345 with the 2009 operating plan. So it was being "investigated" until the schedule change.

[PositiveRate876]

Does limiting days of to 14 guarantee more days of for the bottom group?

[GMDS]

Wow, Ed. You can't possibly have written that crap, can you? But nevertheless you signed it!! Did you really evoke S.A.F.E.T.Y as a concern of yours?????
It's like Animal House's Napolean walking, but with walking sticks ..... Congratulations, you just signed good bye your final remaining tiny little bit of credibilty.

[nolimitholdem]

Just spoke with a colleague coming for an interview at the end of the month. He has long wanted to work at EK and to see him go from elation at getting the invite, to anxiety at the rostering changes AND THE WAY IT WAS DONE!, to now deciding not to accept the position should it be offered...has been interesting, to say the least. This is the advantage of the internet...no longer can the truth about what is going on at a company be hidden easily.

He will however, be accepting the flight to Dubai and hotel room for the visit. Way to go Emirates! Not exactly an effective recruitment tool, this running roughshod over the roster! I literally don't know what goes through their heads...if they thought they would have a hard time recruiting before, just wait. The roster is peoples lives, mess with it, and it really is over. Makes my own decision easier.

NO ONE is buying the GCAA bs, it only insults people's intelligence. Play your employees for fools and you will pay the price in attrition. Two down, how many more to go?
:yuk:

[Scudsy]

And so the terms and conditions continue their steady decline.
Just how much is enough? Do we need to make 5000 billion dollars a year before someone says "well guess what? I suppose they're doing a good job out there, how about this for a radical idea? What do you say we leave the terms and conditions just as they are? Seems like those boys & gals are doing mighty fine despite the price of oil."

Of all the things they could have "tweaked", why oh why does it have to be the bidding system. Without doubt this is the holy grail of terms and conditions.

The top two months of the rotating bid system are chance for a pilot to pick his days off, get a couple of ULR flights and still be working hard in comparison to other operators. It is analogous to an office worker who waits for his weekend. Something to look forward to, and if you've had a hard time in between well that was just a hard day at the office.

Bring your own food to work, and how about buying your own uniform? Maybe we can do away with the excessive annual leave allowance? Remember you're only "entitled" to 30 days, despite what it says in your contract. Cycle to work. Buy your own charts. Simulator on days off, after all, it's your licence, not the companies problem really.

Seen it all before. I think they call it "low cost".

Now where did I put my CV?

[silverjetblubird]

I am scheduled to interview in Dubai next month. Please keep everyone informed as to what is going on at EK and the rostering. If what I read is true then the recruiting people from EK are wasting their time and money coming to N America. Can anyone explain the fatigue policy (short version)? Can you call in fatigued away from Dubai? Thanks for the information.

[Raise or Fold]

I was pretty excited to interview at Emirates. But now, I think I might just take the free trip out there, interview and check out Dubai. This is a huge deal breaker for me. Hopefully this will change.

[ekpilot]

After all this is call increased productivity. Once the CRS system has completed it's first round too many flights are uncovered every months. Since the optimizer of CRS works from the bottom bid to the top bid it becomes the 3-4 and bottom bids that get their roisters overly optimized. Then it makes no more sense for the lower bid groups compared to the 2 top bids. So the roistering team ;) has to equalize the results of the automatic optimization by manually taking flights from the automatically optimized groups and manually insert those flights into the top groups since the optimizer did not reach the top bids. Since we are 1900 pilots minus trainers about 200 ( i guess i really don't know ) then this becomes a big task to insert manually all these flights every months. By changing the rules of CRS there will be more flights assigned in the top bids and then less flights ending not being initially assigned by CRS on the first round. The uncovered flights at the end of the first round of CRS will still be automatically optimized to a lesser disparity between top and bottom bids. This is just a sign of what is about to come in the future. More planes coming not enough people to fly them. Cut the vacation credits=productivity. Still not enough people=cut actual vacations ( 30 days is contractual )=productivity. Still not enough people then introduce factoring=productivity. Still not enough people change CRS rules to fit more flights throughout the groups=productivity. Still not enough people then suspend the bidding system and use optimizer only to crew the aircrafts=productivity.

The idea is they have many airplanes coming and they will do what they do to have the airplanes flying. The trend is definitely going towards more work for less money=productivity. This is just the beginning. Since they cannot have the number of pilots to fly the future fleet at the productivity level that we are today and they cannot change that fact... The only solution is to increase productivity. Can't wait for the 1000+ a years. The hotel in the sky of long haul... Keep discovering :ok:

[Vorsicht]

For those not in EK who want an insight into how your rostering will be managed, find attached a copy of the letter sent to all pilots at EK


Colleagues –
Fleet and Flight Operations management have been closely monitoring the data regarding the trends of the airline’s operating parameters and are seeing some fairly remarkable changes to the character of our flying at Emirates:


Average stage length will be 6.1 hours by the end of the next financial year – up 15.1% from 5.3 hours only 3 years ago.
Average aircraft utilisation will be 14.0 hours per day at the end of the 2008/09 operating year – up from 13.6 hours per day last year. A 3% increase in one year.
The number of ULR flight segments will increase to 7 by the end of this financial year versus 1 last year.
The average days off (not including leave) in the lower bid group in January 2008 was 9 whilst the upper bid group had a 16 day off average – a 77% disparity.
It is becoming increasingly clear that the character of the average Emirates pilot’s line flying is rapidly moving away from the regional, mid-range flights with few time zone crossings to more ultra long-haul, intercontinental flying across multiple time zones today and in the future. With this fundamental shift comes both opportunity and challenge. There is a clear opportunity for First Officers to gain access to command upgrades quicker than their contemporaries in other airlines whilst the challenge is to maintain a flying workload that is shared across the pilot group in a safe, fair and balanced manner whilst retaining the popular rotating bid group system. It is obvious to us in management that this challenge is not being successfully met with the current automated bid system operating parameters.
We also realise that one of the major attractions of Emirates pilot employment has been and continues to be the unique “rotating” bid group system that attempts to balance the pilot’s opportunity for obtaining the preferred trips, days off and popular destinations across the operating roster year in as fair a manner as possible. That system’s perception of fairness is closely aligned to an automated output free from manual intervention. However, concern has been expressed at the vast difference of work between the top and bottom two bid groups that the present system is generating. The principal manifestation of this disparity is seen in the widening gap in days off as indicated above. One can argue that in using a Preferential Bidding System the difference in the subjective quality of top bid and bottom bid group rosters is the natural outcome of such a system. Flight Operations management, however, has a duty of care to all pilots and feels that this marked difference cannot continue to be ignored or worse, allowed to increase.
Accordingly, some steps will be put in place for rosters beginning in March 08 and onward to reduce the growing disparity in the number of days off in a month without instituting manual intervention in the top two bid groups – a method which has been shown in the February rosters to have been a labour-intensive and unstructured means of achieving the desired result that carries the strong perception of inequality.
Testing in Crew Planning using actual February bid data has shown that the automated CRS System, when programmed with a target of 14 days off maximum per month, can produce rosters that are more balanced from a workload perspective. Crew Planning will apply this target beginning with the March Bid period and therefore, we are sending this email to alert you to this change which will allow you to more accurately bid. As a result of this target implementation, the output of the CRS Bid System will be the subject of continual monitoring over the next several bid periods. If any further revisions are necessary we will inform the pilot group.
I am fully aware that these changes will not be advantageous to all pilots. However, my management team and I cannot shy away from our GCAA-mandated obligation to operational safety in an attempt to sustain the bid satisfaction of a particular segment of the pilot population. I and my team believe this is a reasonable compromise between our dual obligations to safety and pilot morale.
As always, should you have questions or concerns, please contact your respective Fleet Managers.

Regards,

Senior Vice President - Fleet

[fo4ever]

Safety my ars.....

This means same low number of days off in low bid group but less in top bid groups = more work, less time off and more bitching pilots.

People who are thinking of joining..... Think hard.

8 days off in a roster with a mix of shorthaul, longhaul, ultra longhaul, night, day, timezones and min. rest in between. Now that is hard work if you dont have a few months to settle down with a good roster and many days off.

Is the max 14 days off incl. restdays?

Adios Mr Ed

[Craic Ore]

After thinking I have another 7 or so years in me, things like this make me realize in the realm of money vs happiness, I'll be out of here sooner.

In my many years here, this is the final nail in the coffin. They WILL not have enough crews for the flights by year end 08 and they'll tighten up to squeeze all they can to keep the operation going. What's next, max 12 days off? 10?

It all feels like sitting at home with the lights out watching some horror flick. You're sitting in the dark full of anticipation wondering what horrible act is about to take place......again.

Yep, that's working for EK in a nutshell.

[ernestkgann]

Ultimately this change in policy has been put in place because they don't have enough crew. When they sat at the big table with Timmy and he asked if they could crew the expansion, they obediently nodded. Couldn't do otherwise in the culture of fear.
Now there isn't enough people staffing their machinery and they are reacting the only way they can, by asking the people to do more.
If I was thinking of coming here it would probably be a good time to sit and go slow on your application. Until these kinds of issues a meaningfully resolved this place will lurch from drama to drama. It doesn't have the mechanisms to do otherwise. As this will create problems for all in terms of rosters, fatigue and time off it will reach a crunch point at summer time when they allow the most people to go on leave. Those stranded in the desert oasis will work hard and will have short/night turn arounds mixed with long haul, east and west. Large groups of fellows will get to the 900 hour mark and be asked to do more.
Unless the system really breaks it will never be fixed. Better to watch and wait.

[emratty]

What a F:mad:ing joke, the majority of pilots are HAPPY with the bid system to claim they want to make the rosters fair is a lie. Its great to know in your top two bids you can get a nice roster while still flying the required number of hours.
It is just so so sad that a great job has been ruined by pathetic weak jealous managment.:ugh:

[Saltaire]

There is no real point to a rotating bidding system with this new development. Top bid versus bottom will be basically insignificant, with the exception of specific pairing requests. Good luck trying to commute...

This will force a mix of some long, medium haul and short turns. A balance from a management point of view, but it's really regulating the whole premise of the rotating seniority, which, by in large most people were very content. It's just a way to increase productivity and control; period. Planning is way behind the power curve, again....

Isn't the disparity and difference of work and days off all part of the rotating bidding system? Work more during low bid months and work less during high bids months. This is acknowledged but increased productivity is the name of the management game. The heck with morale...

And finally, what's the problem of working 85-95 hours a month regardless of the amount of days off ? So we'll only intervene in 3 of the 5 bid months....gee thanks. :ouch:

[menard]

With less off days in the top bids, that leaves space for interesting possibilities.

You can be used for:

-Available days,
-Standby duty,
-Sim support duty (convenient with all the future training),
-Dispatch crew duty (you go set up an aircraft for departure, and then go home!)
-Etc,etc

And maybe that new way of rostering will work perfectly with a potential surprise in the next pay review. (i.e. Do more, get paid less!)

Comments? Ideas? Anybody please come and defend the company on this one?

Oh! Maybe! If I don't like this, I must be unhappy and I should leave?

Perhaps, maybe!!!

[porkandbrew]

I have a theory as to what lies behind this BS.
I know that some of the American DEC's have complained that there should be a rotation within the bidding groups as well as between the groups.

What our ignorant, Long range, geography Master Ed and his 'management team' have dreamt up this time could possibly achieve something that might please Captain America et al.

How about we get constructive guys?

What is the Europe based Chinese jobs like? Any ideas? What about Jet in BRU? Time to dust off CV's and finally give AAR and Ed what they've been asking us to do, and that is to leave if we do not like it. And we do not like this.

Cheese,
Pork

[SOPS]

This is going to be very very interesting.......

[Far Kinarss]

If Ed had said:
"Listen up you lazy c@#$s. We screwed up the numbers so we are going to fix it by f#$king with your days off because we can. I f you don't like it p#$s off and we will hire someone who is cheaper than you anyway."
It would have been just as unpalatable but I would have had more respect for him being honest, but couching it in terms of SAFETY and a GCAA MANDATE!
F#*K OFF WALLY.

[SOPS]

Far Kinarss...thats the sort of thing I was meaning...this is going to be very interesting...........:cool:

[TangoUniform]

WTF PokeandBrew? I haven't heard any DEC, US or otherwise make a complaint of what you are refering. It will be the Yanks, Candians, and S. Americans who want to spend some time in their home country that will be really hurt by this new policy. Takes three days of travel just to get to and from. And probably all of the US pilots are used to a pure seniority based bidding system with no rotation at all. Maybe you know of someone who has made your suggestion, but believe me it would very isolated. Oh damn, I forgot, it's Bush's fault. Mesaboy?

All that aside, this will kill recruiting in the west. They might as well not even think of spending any money on roadshows in Canada or the US. The whole perspective of EK has now changed.

[Murrenfan]

Indeed! I'm also from that part of the world! I normally bid for my leave on those months I am at the bottom bid and bid for 10 days off in a row when I get the top bid. So I can go home at least 4, maybe 5 times per year. Now this is gone. If I knew this was going to change, I would have never joined EK. New joiners: pay a close attention to this.
Mfanhttp://www.pprune.org/forums/images/icons//icon8.gif

[Scudsy]

I have to agree with Tango Uniform. I don't know where pork and brew got that one from, it just doesn't make any sense. The Americans (both North and South) will be sorely affected by this change. They must be rocking on their heels in dismay! In fact anyone who enjoys going to their home country on a regular basis will be finding it much harder. Europeans, Ozzies, et al.

Once the honeymoon is over, most people like to get out of here on a regular basis. And I don't mean on a layover!

[Schnowzer]

We screwed up the numbers so we are going to fix it by

That could be one reason but the other could be that the numbers are fine but they really are out to get you!

[Marooned]

Again they're f***king around with us at the wrong time... it's worse than incompetence it's negligence.

Safety my ar*e, ED grow a spine back and pi** off.

Jet Airways: 'We have the screenings scheduled for B777 on 13th, 14th and 15th of Feb 08'.

Aerologic (777) start 2009, Easyjet (Airbus) pool eta 2009, Virgin Oz (777) 2008/9, Korean (777) now, Vietnam (777) now, Air India (777) now, Etihad (SOS). ALL recruiting.

A major change in attitude is needed NOW.

[yardman]

Now, I'm usually a pretty positive person when it comes to Emirates, but this is crap! There is no intelligent way to put a positive spin on this. It's clearly due to one of two reasons:

1. A total misunderstanding of the concept of productivity, or

2. Total jelousy on the part of upper management who have to work 9 to 5.

I'm positive it's the latter. It will be interesting to see how many potential new hires think this is a good idea versus being a deal breaker. In a year when EK needs 50 pilots a month it's hard to understand their thinking.

Way to go guys:ok: NOT!!!

[ekpilot]

In a year when EK needs 50 pilots a month it's hard to understand their thinking.

Well when you ain't got the resource you create it. There will be no planes grounded, just overworked and underpaid pilots around here. Will get better and better with time!

[Townie]

Anybody think this has less to do with disparity in the top/bottom bids, and more to do with the disparity in the training vs line pilot roster? This may stop guys from leaving training to enjoy day off strings and may even entice some to join since they are getting a crap roster anyway. Sounds like one of EK managements think outside the box "cost neutral" solutions...

Whatever their motivation, this is a bad idea and will haunt them far worse and longer than their previous cost neutral forays.

Have to go and prepare my CV.

[Trashed Aviator]

Heard they want to pay more to new joiners without paying the rest of the crews....

Answer.......... put the initial furnishing allowance up to 100K DHS and give em an empty villa. Of course must stay 3 years or pay it back pro- rata.:{

[atiuta]

One consistency about this ruling.

Every pilot appears to see it as an ill conceived and poorly implemented alteration to our rostering. Does anyone support this venture?

There will be an impact; sickness, unavailability on days off, resignations, reduced uptake of contract offers. Of course it won't be identified as a tangible connection by the 9th floor.

Cost neutral, not a chance. Shame that everyone has to lose though.

[unipilot]

TO THE MANAGEMENT

When I first joined Emirates,it was one of the happiest moments of my life.However yesterday I felt that the airline I was so proud to be part off,let me and many of my fellow colleagues down.
I ask off you not to go through this MONSTROUS CRS bidding change just because some bureaucratic a:mad:le wants to win the golden najm award.Because this is what this is about-not safety or equal flying hours as you say.Its NOTHING to do with productivity!
We all look forward to our top bid months,especially during the summer months,where we can bid for days off and visit our home countries.And we know that when we are bottom bid we have to fly.It has been a fair and accepted system for some time now.
I dont understand your reasoning:We CAN be productive with the existing system-somebody can fly 2 JFK'S and 2 LHR'S(thats 87hrs aprx)and CAN get his string of days off.I dont see WHY this is a problem!
An office guy does not have to fly in a cylinder can for 15hrs at North 80 and different time zones which make you forget your own name and date at the end of the month.We NEED the days off-HE/SHE DOESNT!!!
Emirates is the best airline to work for-DONT make it the worst!
Many of my friends have been very interested in joining EK,UNTIL YESTERDAY.They are awaiting for your actions,as many of us are,to decide.
I believe that if you implement your suggestions it will have a disastrous effect on the lifes of the flight deck crew and their families and eventually on the company itself.
If you need to attract more people,dont be stingy-GIVE and they will come.
I do hope that you will reason and listen to all of us who are asking you not to go through with this.(everybody,please send an email to management through the crew portal expressing your thoughts).

Regards

[ekpilot]

Unipilot are you two years old or what?

[menard]

Another "life-quality deteriorating" decision. One aim, yes, productivity.

Other airlines may use the same tactics, but, if you're based close to your home land, 4 or 5 days off is enough to go home and get re-sourced. But when you live far away, this is a major blow.

CRS Adopt was designed to function adequately when opposed and limited by a pilot's union.

When left in the hands of uncontrolled managment, it could cause serious harm or even death by fatigue to the users. Do not operate heavy machinery when under it's uncontrolled influence.

Will this management style always be rewarded here?

When are we gonna see at least a sign of REAL improvement?

Unipilot, I understand what you mean...keep posting.

[helen-damnation]

ekpilot

It's his post, leave him be :hmm:

Try directing your anger to the peolpe who caused it :(

[airbus757]

Fellas, I have to say I agree with most of the posts here. The thing is it aint gonna do sh!t in helping out our situation. We have no way of putting any kind of real pressure on the "team" short of quiting or attempting to disuade future applicants from joining.

How about we try and come up with ways of putting real and tangible monetary pressure on the talking horse and the rest of those greedy jokers. The only way they will change is if it costs them huge money. By huge I mean 100's of millions. They have to be made to understand that without us they can not make any money. Anything short of that can and will be "managed" by the guys who make the big bucks.

7

[silverjetblubird]

What you guys need to do, is form a virtual union. I know unions are not allowed in the UAE, however something could be formed here or elsewhere on the net and "collective idea's" put forth. Just be careful. My former employer gave us a hard time on this, many years back. Fly by the book, carry extra gas, fly fast, lower the gear early, fly off optimum altitude and on. There must be some Aussie's and Yank's there with Union experience. Down line sick or fatigue calls could kill an operation. Everyone must grow a set and participate so that no prisoners are taken

[woodja51]

Well this management email certainly generated some pprune traffic!!! - only saw this many posts when the BA 777 punched in!!

Once again many theories about the logic of this action - most probably some basis in fact for all.

Unfortunately many of you have not had your work ethic tested enough obviously...!

I will reserve my judgment as to how this will work out - I suspect not in any way that relates to the stated objectives by Ed.

But hey, all ya have to do to get plenty of time off is hurt your self kite surfing, riding motorbikes or knock ya self out playing football. The clinic are excellent at giving time off!

The Cathay/Dragonair guys discovered this thing called 'affected syndrome'

Apparently works a treat...

Don't like the roster? - Adjust it using any means you are happy with. It's the Company's 'flight plan' - not the 'post flight report'!

Can't put any positive spin on it but the earlier comment that nothing was done after in excess of 50 ASRs on the Perth curtains - which continue to go on....and the use of a seat to gain rest etc... but we all know that safety and standards has no influence on decisions made in higher management.

Otherwise we wouldn't be doing stupid Peleysis and leadership courses that teach nothing but how to press a mouse button!

But they all come and go...and not many leave with a legacy of having made any improvement for the Company's real bottom line.

Rather than throw this at us why not ask us if we are happy with the way things are reference CRS and rostering via some form of constructive and consultative process...... hmmm sounds like democracy .... cant be having that now..!

Really feel sorry for the guys looking to come over here.

It's a shame that the mere mention of the word 'basings' would solve ALL of EKs current and future manning requirements.. panacea - maybe!

maybe email ed with the phrase 'basings ' in the subject line - no body and see what happens?

woodja.

[kingoftheslipstream]

Ladies 'n Gents

The consequences a this are not apparent to fleet manglement, nor the senior partners, but it's devastatin' to morale in way that is more severe 'n any fatigue... :bored:

The audacity of this lie staggers ma mind. I been sucker punched before but this is real dirty...

Just readin' the memo made me feel like I'd just got back from a GRU... it's just so deflatin'...

The foundation of this is a manpower shortage, and it's compounded by a certain person who can't stan' tha sight of a block with 16 days off... mean spirited, petty and envious, this 'farkin-over' in the guise of concern has just cost this company more than he can imagine.

PPPpppSSSsss...

hear that Adel, Alan, Ed, Patricia, and Jim?

That's the sound of morale, good will an' any form a belief in you folks just leakin' out onta the sand.

Way ta go ya dummies. Ya shure 'fixed' it this time! :D

k-o-t-s

[STD]

For all those EK wanabees west of 40W, this basically means you guys won't be able to go home on days off.... stuck in the gulf!!! or maybe stick the golf club in the btt... :ouch:

[GuessWhat]

Been reading without posting for a couple of years now, and i must say this last stunt performed by the "management" is one of the most stupidest moves i've ever seen!!

Messing with our only "lifeline" to the real world outside was a big mistake! Days off, layovers and vacationplanning in the 2 top grps is probably the #1 thing that keeps ppl here. And now its gone.

Its cooking and boiling out on the lines now. This is not going to be forgotten. Guess the "management" didn't realize the impact of their "latest improvment". If they found it hard to keep pilots here and get new pilots coming before, guesswhat - this wont help!

Forming a web-based union??? Nice idea!! Where do i sign?? (Not on a asr or vr anyway, it never helps!)

Enough!!

[scaglietti]

Just looked at the Seniority List. Conventional wisdom is a need for 500-600 additional bodies required in '08. The net increase for January '08 was 25. 50-60% of the month-on-month target.

As usual nobody is telling the truth. From the guy pumping gas all the way up to VP's at EK nobody in Dubai is willing to say that they made a mistake at work. History has shown that fear (job loss, villa loss, kid's school loss, company car loss, deportation home to what?) is an effective short term management tool but has always had calamitous long term results.

Given the fact that they may be 250-300 short at year end '08 I tend to believe that 1000 hours and factoring for operating crews will be back.

BTW where is Ed's other letter? Last year we got early notification of the amended package. This year ---- silence. I am anticipating that it will be underwhelming otherwise they would publish it early in order to aid recruiting which is, I believe, the real problem here.

Scaglietti

[airbus757]

What about a class action lawsuit from some country where we fly to. If we had a thousand unidentified pilots suing because of the shortfall in contractural leave, we would probably be mentioned in a few newpapers.

7

[BYMONEK]

Don't pin your hopes on a large pay rise. If people aren't leaving then there's no reason to splash the cash.

Revised estimates for 2008 is nearer 400 Pilots than the 550 earlier forcast but with the ERP shambles and the bid system now buggered, the nexy 12 months will be very interesting. It is simply supply and demand and the Company is still winning on that front. Just!

I just hope that everyone who's taken the time to moan here has spent equal time writing to their respective fleet managers.

BYMONEK

P.s TangoUniform. You've been dusting off that CV of yours for the last 3 years mate. Actions speak louder than words.

[Marooned]

We need 550.

We won't get 550 either through the door or the training system hence the revised estimate of 400 forced on the company due to lack of planning/foresight/expertise.

400 can only be achieved by increasing the workload (if that's possible) and f**king around with the rosters/bidding.

[Gillegan]

I'm surprised that no one has figured out just how brilliant this move is. In one fell swoop they have solved the training load issue (fewer pilots to train - no more shortage of trainers) and the manning issue (more productivity). I'm sure that the architects of this latest fiasco are already counting their bonus money.

As a large portion of EK pilots have been here a relatively short time, there are a few things they need to understand. This company cannot leave well enough alone. Just when you think that you have found some kind of accommodation living in Dubai, working the fatiguing rosters, dealing with the traffic, the company turns around and f:mad:ks with you. It may not be the straw that breaks your camels back by itself but it pisses you off. Fast forward and you again come to terms with living and working here - you think that things are bearable and lo and behold, here they come again. Spend enough time here and the cumulative effect is to produce one of those whinging old timers that so annoy some of our newer members. ("If you don't like it - leave.") Well, congratulations, you have just been f:mad:ed with.

As far as virtual unions, work to rule and WOE's go, good luck. The only thing that the company will respond to is pilots not showing up and pilots leaving and don't be surprised if you find yourself training a new hire who makes more than you - they've done it before. In a place where unions are outlawed and where the labor laws exist only to reinforce the skewed playing field of employer/employee relations, there is some truth to the admonition above. The minute TC and AAR get the slightest inkling of any type of organized effort, they'll be flying extra sections just to take out the deportees.

[templarknight]

ZERO cooperation is the way forward. Nothing other than what is absolutely necessary.

[ekpilot]

Gulf businesses face a tough year ahead trying to retain staff, with more than two-thirds of employees indicating they are more likely to leave their job this year than in 2007, the ArabianBusiness.com Salary Survey has revealed.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/510800-two-thirds-of-gulf-staff-looking-to-quit-job?ln=en

[donpizmeov]

I have found that sometimes the company makes an error with the cost index on the flightplan, as sometimes the flight time might be longer than the block. I try my best to fix this by adding the fuel and and going faster. So when they make an error with my roster, and dont give the days off required, I also try and help out by dailing #2. :E If they didnt want you to take those sick days they would pay you for them at the end of the year.
Help them help us.

Don

[Watchdog]

donpiez,

re your post... all I can say is :ok: :ok: :E

[Marooned]

* Cost indices
* Fuel decisions
* Early descents
* Flight Levels
* Discretion
* Sick days
* ASRs
* WORKING DAYS OFF!!!

All weapons in the arsenal (excuse the pun).

EK is at critical mass and we need a change at the top (above pay scale of TCAS and Ed) both in terms of management and attitude... that means TCTC and TCAAR.

We can cost the company far more than they can ever save by their ill-conceived, draconian measures implemented to mitigate their incredible incompetence. Sadly it is only going to get worse as they have created a situation that will only increase attrition rates and make people think more carefully about joining... people who may now heed the warnings given here about the way they will get treated once the spin of recruitment stops and EK reality sets in.

Why are they putting us so far offside when it is in all of our interests to be onside? :ugh:

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Fuggin muppets. Was at the clinic the other day, Doc says that fatigue is way up and sickness very high as well. I suppose this latest intervention into our lives will really help (Not). A holes.

SyB

[checcker10]

Well just done another 35 day rsv and did sweet F A .Even rang them cause I got so bored of standby but hey no flights going.Now 2nd to bottom and got 3 rostered flights. So all this S.H.1.T about balanced days off is utter crap.The flyings being done so whats the problem.And as for safety ...please Ed spare us with that crap.
They have lost the plot and AAR just can't get his fan belts round the fact that he only gets 2 days off in a row.
Feel fatigued already!!! and the * button on my phone will get plenty of use....:*

[GMDS]

LR3: Answer to your question is, it must be the same pilots who voted in favour of the reserve month ....... all go by the name of Harvey and have long ears.

As for the recruting, same here. I am quite disappointed that one of my best buddies just pulls the same stunt, allthough I fully understand. (The recruitement departement should be outsourced to Emirates Holidays, as they mostly provide annual leave with accomodation for non EK employees).
It's interesting to observe that it is not necessarily the last rostering scam that put newbees off. It is the now public discrepancy between what is beeing propagated from recruitement and what is delivered by the managers.
This will have a huge longterm impact because the worst you can do in hr-management, is deliberately lying. If T&Cs become a cynical tool to compensate for incompetence and arrogance (not to mention the r-word), the war is declared.
Being confronted with a strong nomenklatura, it leaves the individual just to protect himself from damage of the repression.
Some possibilites have already been mentioned.

[Keith Discovering]

Wooah Mr Ed....what are you doing?

As a practising Seagull yourself, you must realise we don't need more stones to get us airborne?

As much as I agree with nearly all of the posts here, we Pilot's are our own worst enemies; from being employed on a personal contract (TCAS's buddies), to working days off cos' we can dump a flight as a favour, or just simply taking it up the proverbial without complaint, we agree to more sh!t becuase it serves us in the short term to do so. Job security, career and not rocking the boat means we'll succumb to whatever is thrown at us. "Roll over and tickle my tummy with your sh!tty boots please"

It's been happening for years and it won't change. And I'm truly sorry to say so :(

[AA717driver]

Had my finger poised to hit "Submit" on the app.

Not so fast... :cool: TC

[Fork Handles]

Dont think Ill bother either.Already got the contract, make a nice souvenir:sad:

[Thylakoid]

"Have you ever noticed how the bigger the lie the longer the :}explanation???"

I believe E.D. has been reading Joseph Goebbels' diaries lately. JG also used to tell big lies to get his messages through. :}

[helen-damnation]

checcker10,

You either have friends in high places or maybe you're a Boeing man.

'Bus buddies are working their a$$es off and being told by crewing they are short of crew cover :uhoh:

Sound familiar :{

[5star]

Ho ho ho... when the sh*t hits the fan....

It will be very interesting to see what happens with our rosters the coming months. I personally think that for guys with lower seniority this might not be not such a bad thing after all....maybe...maybe not... I d give it some time...

Lets be honest guys... when you signed your contract you knew what you were getting into. For those who are just waking up : welcome to the M-E....
I read in another post that EK is currently recruiting in Northern Africa.:eek: Well I'm pretty sure they don't give a damn if you are unhappy and you want to resign. Plenty of guys around in that part of the world who would like to take over your job and get a HUUUGE payrise....

It will be very very interesting to see what they do with this years' profit share. More surprises on the way???

[Fart Master]

JUST PRESS 2:*:ok:

[jetdriven]

How many days off does the top bid group average with the current roster system?
Also, are only the min days off (9?) awarded to the lower group or are some pilots awarded more (no less than the min but possibly more?)

[ERLIN 3]

I have an interview upcoming. Just wondering what a typical month looks like for a junior guy? Also wondering what a typical trip looks like, 2 days..3days...4days?

[Ghost Rider]

The changes being implimented by management are not good for morale thats for sure but at the end of the day vote with your feet.
V Australia will be in DXB in the next week or so doing interviews.
Kingfisher Airlines are doing road shows www.flykingfisher.com/expatpilotroadshow/
offering the best compensation package in the industry and commuting options. Do your rearch and there are some good deals out there

[atiuta]

Junior/Senior, no difference under the rotational bid system.

Top bid could get 18 days off, but THAT was because you were flying ULH flights to do the hours and NEEDED the days off to recover. Just like EVERY other long haul operator.

Next month, top bid will get 14 days max. Even doing those ridiculous IAH turns, sorry layovers. Kinda hard to differentiate. So, a guy hitting the hours on ULH flying (because he bid for them) will have less recovery time. But that's ok, as Ed said he had an obligation to the regulator to balance the load so we were safe and all that. Cutting days off while flying ULH really helps.

Now I get it, you wont stand a chance of getting a month of ULH in top bid. You might get one ULH but will need some really unproductive flying to make sure you don't get more than 14 days off. Like CGK 72 hours or regional back of the clock stuff to KWI or DOH...all in your top bid. The more productive you try to make your roster, the more you need unproductive flights to keep the regulator happy.

odds on how long it will take before there is a correction?

[Kamelchaser]

I was curious to compare the roster of one of the 777 Capts in top bid for FEB, against my (bottom bid) roster. His...102 hours (of unwanted overtime). Block of 10 days off included in there somewhere. Mine, 71 hours, 8 days off, (albeit with a few days of vacation).

My point? What a load of crap claiming that it is to "balance the workload". Guys are sitting around on reserve doing sweet FA, while the top bid guys are flying their butts off, just to ensure that the top bid people don't get too many days off in a row. And of course, in this case, it costs the company a bucket full of productivity pay, just to ensure that our top bid Capt is completely screwed around.

Some of course would be happy with that sort of productivity pay, and that's up to them. But for those that don't want it, and don't bid for it, it's a complete farce.

[BigGeordie]

"Guys are sitting around on reserve doing sweet FA"

Not on the Airbus they aren't..........

[ernestkgann]

In my last reserve month was originally scheduled 99.4 hrs, five xx days and the longest sector was seven hrs. A ripper! Ended as 92 hrs and seven xx days, though I spent one day in Dubai in the first 13.
This month the guys on reserve are being allocated the ULR flights that were taken from the bids to reduce the days off of the guys at the top. Instead of having the ULR manned, they allocated all the short flights and used reserve coverage to cater for the rest.

[White Knight]

Well I'm on reserve this month - done 2 trips making 30 hours so far.... 5 days xxr already and nothing on the horizon...
I'm not sure how crew control are working this if some of the other 'bus guys are flat out:confused:

[Flying Spag Monster]

Restrictng the roster in this manner is inappropriate under the circumstances of trying to recruit and retain pilots. It does not encourage or support team participation by the pilot group and fails to establish any common goals with management...... If these words don't sound familiar then have a look at the EK Pilot Assessment Markers (PAMs) under "leadership". It equates to a score of "1" ie a FAIL.

[disconnected]

Yup - Its all about increasing productivity and lowering cost per pilot/hour.

A productivity hour costs the company about 50% of what the normal roster hour costs.

Do the math.
A) Salary + Accom + School Fees(Avg 2 kids) + ALT + ERP, Profitshare + Uniform + Medical etc.
B) Yearly hours = 820 hrs (10.5 months at 78 hrs/month) (1.5 month leave approx)

Divide A by B to get cost per hour.
Answer is: Much more than the pathetic rate paid for productivity.

So EK makes each pilot hour cheaper, requires less recruitment this year, which in turn lowers the pressure to increase salaries expecially in a recession.

Training load is reduced and more may turn to training. Training costs are reduced. Currently a training captain in productivity is cheaper than a line captain!

There are more subtle implications. Once the initial shock has been swallowed the days off can be manipulated around the following:
Days off post leave. Currently some pilots use small chunks of leave which has the effect of increasing days off in a year. This can now be counted out of the system by including them in the maximum.
Days off downroute. Already happening on a small scale. Expect more of this when the roster requires it to maximise productivity.
There are a few others...

Like everything else at EK, this is not a random bright idea from one individual. There has been a thorough cost analysis showing large savings.

No-one will leave, there will still be new joiners. (EK's PR and recruitment is still well presented and appealing to the uninformed)

Ed got the job of presenting the system. As usual it was done last thing in the week to give everyone time to absorb it before acting pre-emptively.

This is another big move, similar to the "cost neutral" scheme that lowered cost per pilot/hour a few year back. This is the first of a number of moves.

Standby for the changes to minimum qualifications for recruitment and maximum hours permitted in a year. Both are required to give weight to the new changes. When they are effected, we will be working for considerably less per hour, there will be less commuting and any idea on basings will drift into oblivion as it will never compete economically.

I would enjoy reading the full proposal that was drawn up to present to management. The numbers, options and possibilities must be impressive.

Pilots must accept that every change is to ensure only one thing. Increased productivity at their expense.

[Scudsy]

I have put in my March bid and look forward to finding out how things turn out. I've bid heavily for Ultra Long Haul, and normally would pick up two in this bid group.

I really can't see that happening with the the new rules. Not to mention all the other rules that are already in place. The pilot must be current in this region, that region, ULR, turnarounds, the ridiculous "variant" rules (which essentially allow the company to break their own FTL's), must have flown such and such a variant within the last blah, blah. It's impossible to second guess. It feels like a complete waste of my time bothering to bid at all.

I have a feeling the pilots who are doing "Sweet FA" on their reserve are B777 FO's. I have talked to a few who had it easy recently. We must be a bit top heavy there. I had reserve recently, 98 hours in one month and managed to fly from one side of the world to completely the opposite side in just over a week. Needless to say I wasn't sleeping well nor at the appropriate times.

The CRS bidding system has worked very well at other operators but EK must fiddle...... Whilst Rome burns.

[Reverend Doctor Doug]

No-one will leave, there will still be new joiners.

I'm Leaving. There will be others.

The Rev

[disconnected]

Sure you are Rev.

My point is that if everyone who threatened this on Pprune actually did leave, EK would be in trouble.

The fact is the attrition rate has slowed recently, not increased. Hence the bold new moves from management.

Supply and Demand. Pilots are essentially doing business with Arab Traders. Historically they have always been excellent at this game and will squeeze a much better bargain than anyone from the west.

[Marooned]

Attrition has slowed but it usually happens in pulses and I believe it will increase.

There are going to be other options available and the way EK 'manage' they are making it much easier to leave.

[revolucionpilot]

just press 2

[TangoUniform]

Attrition of course has slowed. We are just three months away from getting our "huge" bonus (not profit share, MPBUH). This wonderful rostering has just come out so guys/gals are starting to take stock of what is available. Also, the three month notice will start kicking in after the bonus is paid. With the IAH ULH fiasco, the rostering changes, inflation and loss of buying power in DXB, general deteriotating conditions of living in Dubai-Yes this summer there will be attrition issues. And this will be felt where, primarily? B777 3-6 year captains. Their bond is down to zero, their hours are competitive and the age of the pilots relatively young compared with N.A. B777 skippers. Guys over 6 years have settled in with their families, their money is fair, and guys under three may still have a hefty bond to pony up.

Will this wake anyone up? Only when metal is parked-not one minute sooner. As long as flights arrive and depart on time (same day for EK), and metal is not bent, then our managers will see themselves as doing a masterful job with the assests they have.

Just my 2 fils:confused:

[southflyer]

Looks like the Kool-Aid jug is running dry, eh?

[L1011]

Southie, the Kool Aid ran out a long time ago. Just a few of LRE's buddies drinking the drips from the A/C and thinking it's bubbly.

My crystal ball is similar to TU's. I reckon a handful of senior TRE/TRIs will go to V Oz with resignations going in after the May paycheck has been banked. Some line guys will follow, probably in the 3-6 year range mentioned.

A few more will go to basing deals with FE carriers. But not enough to start a panic. However recruiting will start to dry up and with lots of Factoring the sickness rate will creep up. Around the second half of the year there will be serious crewing issues. Then we'll see what our 'managers' are made of.

Probably have to park the 310 fleet and send those guys on the 777. That will help for a few months if it is done early enough. Unless they screw the 380 guys and make them fly the 340 as MFF, the Bus will get very ugly.

Have been wrong many times before - let's see how I do this time.

[vbrules]

TU and 1011 are on the mark. Its normal for the rate of resignations to slow up leading into the bonus and pay rise announcement. If they were to base the pay rise on current resignation rate it would be a grave error as there will be an exodus to the places mentioned above. I also suspect the reason they stopped the 777 transfers from the Bus is they figured out exactly why almost ALL of the guys are actually doing it:cool:

[nolimitholdem]

The problems with attrition and recruitment are not limited to the pilot corps. They are having a lot of difficulty attracting and retaining personnel in all areas - this directly from HR. It isn't hard to see why when your grocery bill doubles in the span of a year, and you don't have company accommodation to shield you partially from inflation. It used to be you stayed until you could afford to leave. People are leaving now because they can no longer afford to stay. More than a subtle distinction, no?

Attrition slowing? On the contrary, as noted above it has to be examined in the context of both the three month notice period and the time of year. Month over month alone is not the whole picture.

But to bring it back on point, making regressive changes to rostering is hardly a wise move when trying to recruit for an expansion.

[MTOW]

If you are right about the bonus causing the crrent drop in resignations, stand by for the rush on or soon after the 28th Feb. 90 days notice means resigntion tendered 28 Feb = end of service on 31 May, and as long as you're still on the payroll on 31 May, you are eligible for the bonus.

[MTOW]

If you are right about the bonus causing the crrent drop in resignations, stand by for the rush on or soon after the 28th Feb. 90 days notice means resignation tendered 28 Feb = end of service on 31 May, and as long as you're still on the payroll on 31 May, you are eligible for the bonus.

[XKV8]

Calling in fatigued for a duty is marked as SKF...just FYI

[Thylakoid]

SKV8, would that mean "sickness due to fatigue?"
Interesting, they made sure to include the SK.

As a matter of fact, for a few years now all the ASRs reporting fatigue are handed over to this FR ... something group at the EK clinic. Obviously, nothing changes and the fatigue-inducing patterns are still there.

Does anyone believe that the fatigue group would advise the commercial department on this or that pattern?
I believe people should address the ASRs directly to the GCAA, if that would do any good.

Emirates is out there for a profit at all costs. The owners, would not settle for less and we are all here to be used for that purpose.
With no western-styled labor laws, very little would be achieved by the employees in terms of getting these patterns changed.

[neh13]

If we are soo tired in our bottom bid groups why not target a MINIMUM of 12 days off in a month . Thus increasing moral and recruitment . Yes I live in a fantasy land , Im also hoping when we move to the new CBC beer will flow from the water fountains .

[L1011]

Correction to my earlier post.

Took the trouble to look up the HR Manual (Groupworld>HR>IncentivesProfit Share...if you are bored enough)

It says: payments from this scheme will normally be made on the June payroll

So...if you are going to leave make sure you are here to pick up the June paycheck - 26th usually. Think MTOW said 31st May which is not correct.

Not that it will be much anyway. If the company makes $1 Billion then we get two weeks. If the profit is greater, then 25% of the surplus.

Happy flying to those who leave - I've got the handcuffs on will be here sadly.:{

[EGGW]

SKF is management speak for Skiving F**ker :E:E

EGGW

[ekpilot]

if the company makes $1 Billion then we get two weeks. If the profit is greater, then 25% of the surplus.

The 2 weeks and the 25% of the surplus has been changed last year since it is now only applied to your basic salary. If you fly 75 hours a month average you should be very very close to your 900 hours and maybe more if you count the hours factored.

Depending of your position as Captain or F/O you will have reduction of your bonus this year. If we get 4.5 weeks like last year. Take your basic + your flight pay salary for the year divided by 52 weeks X 4.5 and this should be the bonus for your work for the year. So depending on how much you've worked dictates your bonus. If your worked a lot you get a smaller bonus. If you worked less and be unproductive you get more. Why? Because you don't get the bonus applied to your flight hours. What a funny way to reward your employees for their work... probably a manager idea. Work less get more. Work more get less. Can you be more :ugh: then that? Greed greed greed... Thinking about it, let's start a thread about this subject.

Keep discorering :ok:

[cadidalhopper]

My point is that if everyone who threatened this on Pprune actually did leave, EK would be in trouble.


Dude there is like 20 of you?? What difference would it make?

[mini cooper]

cadidalhopper - dude (if that's the term to use) you have way missed the point. All these little things and not so little things add up. Yes guys will threaten to leave, a few will, many are looking for other jobs at this moment. Eventually everyone gets to the point where they have had enough of the back stabbing, decreasing pay (in real terms with spiralling inflation - 36% at last look), changes in rostering, increasing levels of fatigue, lack of management support, bonus not reflecting profit made by company, lack of leave, pitiful pay rises no matching inflation, lack of communication between managment and pilots, decreasing morale etc etc. The list grows by the day.

As for the bonus I have almost reached the point of apathy, unfortunately as much as I would like it to be a good bonus and be followed by a good pay rise I know that it will not be what we expect, it will not be what we want, it will be considerably lower, lots of cabin crew will leave, flight crew morale wil drop further, more guys will get the 'who gives a sh*t' attitude, more guys will call sick. The spiral downwards will contuinue, managment will keep their heads firmly stuck in the sand believing we are the best.

PS Why have I not left - I am waiting until my kids leave school then I'm off, I stay purely for stability for them, no other reason - I get job offers regularly. However this rostering change is getting me very close to leaving, I will have to see how it works out for me!!!

[GMDS]

Mini

You reflect very accurately the greatest part of EKs workforce. I think a lot of FAs and groundhogs will leave after the "bonus", feeling that these idiots can now shove it up their own other "#nus". Those stuck with kids or other obligtions will adopt eklawyers attitude and compensate with sickies or at least the "i don't give a s#*t" work attitude.
Someone finally has to look after your health, the company declared war on your body, so there is only yourself left.
It will be interesting to see what happens after the first generation of major graduations ..... My kids done ... i'm gone.

[Nuuk]

In the past 2-3 years, they took away our credits for leave (making it now guaranteed days off, not paid leave), took away the credits for reserve and simulator, the ground school is replaced by CBT on your own time, and now they limit the days off to increase productivity, what's next? The airline wants to increase it's pilots work force by 25% this year. It took them over 20 years to achieve the 2000 pilots status and want to grow by that much in a single year when they are cutting and cutting and cutting while achieving record profits....Good luck. The inflation is a record high with a currency at record low, so bad that the government employees get a 70% pay increase to compensate, we get a net salary decrease year after year.
Keep on discovering (or recruiting! would be a better word)

[Sheikh-It-Easy]

"Day Off" strings will be reduced to a maximum of 5 days, so they say.:zzz:

[menard]

Can't wait for the march rosters.

[menard]

Rosters are out, nice, isn't it?

[disconnected]

Of course. They had to get them out on Thursday. That in itself is proof that they have been tampering and know that many will be very annoyed at what they see. They always publish bad news for Terms and Conditions on a Thursday so everyone has the weekend to digest it and accept it.

[5star]

Got my March roster also....
Being in second bottom group all I can say is that I am pleasantly surprised with my March roster
(Feb was not toooo bad either....)

Told my wife it were my superior bidding skills at work... :hmm:

Honestly after 2 months I'm quite happy with the new bidding rules. :ouch:

[Roster Change]

5 Star Well Done.

Disconnected, absolute rubbish !

[ekpilot]

That's is how it will be. The guys in lower bids will get better rosters for a while of course. Since you can't get more then 14 days off in the upper bids you get more flights assigned. But wait a minute. What is going to happen in the long run? More planes, more flights, more hours. No problem there is now room to fit much more flights with much less pilots available and for cheaper. If we have to create rosters with more than the monthly hours no problem. Make them all do 100 hours and more. This way we pay them less for those hours, because after the monthly hours you don't get 12% or 15% in your provident fund, And if you are senior the money they give you doesn't cover your hourly rate... for those who can calculate it. So for now it looks like the bottom guys have nice schedule. I am top this month and can definitely see an flight extra that i never had to do before this change. You guys have no idea... they did not do this change for nothing i promise you. It will hurt in the long run that's for sure. There will be no planes grounded here as long as there are people. They will make us work 140 hours a month, and find a way to say we work less. Just before the pay review! You really have to be an idiot to think you will get more money. If you work 10 hours to get 100$ you don't get more if you get 120$ and work 12 hours. Wait and see the new changes that will come with the pay review. It's written all over the walls. Last year was the flight pay. This year? Some will still be "happy".

Keep Discovering:ok:

[BigGeordie]

If you are augmenting you only log the hours you are in the seat- if you are the operating crew you log the whole block time.

Flight duty starts one hour before departure, even for ULH flights, and finishes at the on blocks time. There is no allowance for post-flight duties.:=

[schismatic]

EK Lawyer - Spot on.

Its all about more hours out of less pilots. "Productivity Pay" is another way to say you get paid at half the hourly rate you actually cost on a normal roster.

This change is simply setting the foundations to extract more hours in future.

We can all look forward to higher average hours per month.

As for the pay review, the idiots will all say "Its great, I'm happy" because they are too stupid to figure out that they are actually losing.

[menard]

Quoted from 5star:

"Honestly after 2 months I'm quite happy with the new bidding rules."

The new bidding rules were only applied starting March rosters.

[Bird On]

New rules mmmm I have no doubt that a big thanks should in large part go to the Prima Donna TREs and TRIs who would constantly whinge and moan at there regular little get togethers about how unfair it was that worthless line pilots could get 10 days off in a row but we can't:{ ...... this amongst all the other sookie laa laas they carry on with.

So of course management respond to the only group they get to hear from in the only way they know how......bring everyone down to the same level.

Thanks a lot fellas.:yuk::mad:

[kingpost]

Bird On, careful what you say. I heard the trainers fought the line pilots case at the last meeting, I think you ought to retract your statement. The Company want a crap roster for you so you join training !!!

[Check 'Six']

Bird On, You are wrong. I was present at our "last little meeting" as you put it.

Quite a few of us challenged Ed on his decision. The first question that was raised, over this particular issue; Why was the pilot group not included in this decision? And then we stepped up the debate on this issue and many others too, like profit share,general pay rise and inflation etc... So, wind your neck in sparrow!!

Check 'Six'

[Bird On]

Know about the last trainers meeting thanks. Its nice you have a forum to discuss such issues, unlike the line scum. Thanks again for raising all those issues. Not much in the way of answers though was there!!!!!

For months and months now trainers have been bending the ear of management with all their woes. Scummy line pilots getting better trips, better rosters, more days off, more productivity pay(as if they hadn't worked for it) etc etc.To improve their own conditions trainers have continued to hold up what little perceived advantages the line pilots had as some kind of easy yardstick to springboard off.

In this case the complaining backfired. Instead of bowing to the trainers and saying "your right to be fair we're going to give all you guys 11 days off in a row too", management just took the option away from everyone. Of course their was some reaction by trainers after the event. Now when they go back to the line either forced or voluntarily(as many will end up doing) one of the few benefits of flying the line has gone. So please don't get all altruistic on me. Of the many trainers I have spoken to at Emirates, not one has ever said they decided to get into training because they actually want to help and contribute to the development of other pilots. ( I think we all now the usual answers by now)

Of course its not entirely the fault of trainers, but seeds get sown, watered and grow in the minds of endearing managements such as EK's, so one thing we don't need any of is white-anting, not even just a little bit.

Anyway enough....your an incredibly talented group and I really do Luv Ya's.

[harry the cod]

Bird On

You really need to remove that chip pan from your shoulder mate. The days off fiasco has nothing to do with the trainers and you know it, so wind your neck in.

Send an email to Mr AAL voicing your thoughts. This is your source of discontent, not your fellow colleagues.

Harry

[5star]

Menard,

That is the official version....
We all know that the new rules were applied (manually) in the February rosters. :hmm:

[GMDS]

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/3253/dognh1.jpg

These new rules will hurt!!
However, as our managers are all spineless, it will take time until they feel it .....

[menard]

If you say so 5star...

[menard]

Interesting:

"We'll have to raise fares and strip costs to compensate," Tim Clark told Dow Jones in an interview. He did not elaborate which fares the airline might raise and by how much.

Clark said that fuel now accounts for 30 per cent of Emirates' costs, up from about 14 per cent in 2004. Clark also said the airline is considering cost savings of "at least $100 million in the coming financial year and higher ticket prices".

I wonder if increasing productivity would help saving the 100M$?

I think we're up for a disapointing surprise, at pay review, maybe?

What about credits, maximum hours, overtime threshold??????

[Gillegan]

Well they need 500+ pilots this year and the current tally stands at 45 for nearly 2 1/2 months. Tim talking to the press and putting his head up his rectal cavity is not going to solve that, increased productivity or not !

They have reduced that number to something south of 400. Out of one side of their mouths they fiddle with the rostering rules because they are "concerned" about fatigue for those in the lower bid groups. Out of the other side, they completely ignore valid fatigue concerns regarding IAH layovers, promised cabin crew rest seats and MRU turns and now they reduce the number of pilots they need this year.

The cutting has begun - run for your life!:ugh:

[Wiley]

The rot set in for me, when was it? - three of four years ago now when all EK staff got a 5% pay rise. Except the pilots, who got their CONTRACTUAL 3% annual increment and a 2% pay rise.

And we all copped it sweet, encouraging them to tighten the screws further and further, which they've done, and continue to do.

Anyone who cared to could look back through my posts on this site and will have found me one of the company defenders up until then. With that one totally cynical slieght of hand, they lost me, and since then, by their actions, they've continued to lose me more and more.

Am I the only captain in the airline who feels really - and I mean REALLY - uncomfortable at the thought of taking my mandatory rest in the (far) aft torpedo tube with some of our latest recruits manning the fort a very long way away from where I am forced to go? EK has had some potentially distrastrous incidents in the past, and on every occasion to date, the company has been extremely lucky in having someone on the flight deck who's rescued the situation with flying skills over and above what the company seems to expect from us now with their utterly ridiculous "automation always" policy. In my opinion, it's just a matter of time and we'll see an EK tail on page 1 of the world's newspapers for all the wrong reasons.

[twieke]

Apparently, recruitment has been told that they "only" need to recruit a good 400 pilots instead of the odd 500 this year. Reason is the "new days off" rule. Any truth to this?

Anybody volunteering for pilot to pilot meet,......ha?

Rgds

[rupefly]

Can any FO tell me what kind of schedules you have over there? I have an interview next month and was just wanting to know about the trip selection. how many days on the road, how many in dxb, average flt hours per month, that sort of thing. just trying to make an informed decision if i make it through the interview. thanks.

[Flying Spag Monster]

Rupefly, I cannot answer your question directly, but I will say this. You will not be able to truely make an informed decision using rosters as the rostering can and will change. As an example, if you joined in December expecting large blocks of days off in top months, you would now be very dissapointed. Changes will happen again, so whatever you discover, keep in mind there is very little certaintly of it remaining so....

FSM

[330 Man]

I just pulled up the March rosters of 45 Captains who bid top bid month for March. (group 4) I started at the bottom of the bid group and worked up 45 numbers. (boredom is running rampant in Dubai)

4 got 10 days off in a row
3 got 9 days off in a row
4 got 8 days off in a row
4 got 7 days off in a row
Nearly everyone got 6 days in a row, which was supposed to be the limit under this new program.

I think that this too will go away when ED discovers it is unworkable. Especially if no one flys on days off.

Regards,
330 Man

[5star]

What about the april rosters guys?

Less happy to be honest this month... even if I moved one level up.... Don't know what happened.
Can I get a Bidding For Dummies at the Spinneys book store?

At least the rosters came out pretty early this month...

[Ramboflyer 1]

The rosters came out early because they were built manually bidding is over.
Heard a rumour that EK was going to offer a Captains salary of 20K usd a month in return for deletion of bid system , manual rosters only with requests for days off only on special occasions . 1 months leave instead of 6 weeks.
No more o/time but you may get rostered 90+ hours a month.
will end up doing 1000 hrs a year.
Go for it ...................

[BIKKERDENNAH]

QUE??:confused:

[Schnowzer]

Irony!!!!!!!!!!!

[BIKKERDENNAH]

AHH!!:rolleyes:

[Roster Change]

Hey Ramboflyer, how long do you think it would take to build a manual roster ?

[GMDS]

No irony this time:

On the latest weekly incident report there are 5 ASR's (out of 7 flights) concerning this inhumane IAH rostering!!!!!

Good job guys, it's coming in - CONTINUE.

The really sad and troubling part of this just shows the absolute disrespect of employees and disregard of safety of EK management.

HOW THE F@*K CAN YOU MISMANAGERS STILL INSIST ON A CYNIC SCIENTIFIC DATA COLLECTION, BEGINNING ONLY NEXT MONTH (!!!!!!!!) IF THE EVIDENCE OF YOUR DISREGARD OF SAFETY TO UP ONLY YOUR PROFIT IS BLATENTLY OBVIOUS!!!!!!:yuk::yuk::yuk:

If there will be a incident of some seriousness, at least neither GCAA nor FAA can pretend not having known about this scam. They are informed and ACCEPT it, so they are just as responsible as EK.
They know that we know that they know.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[RFusmoke]

1) don t mention fatigue anytime...... you are always sick.

2) Press 2

3) you can hurt them in the only way they know......... money.

4) Always carry at least 3Ts extra if you can(everyone needs to do this)

[5star]

IF they throw CRS overboard then I guarantee you the exit doors will be too small.
I personally don't believe our management is that stupid.

But have to agree that the manual screwing of our rosters is turning into a real Fawlty Towers joke. "MANUEL, keep your hand of the rosters please!!!!!!!" :ugh:

[wa7eed]

Try the cabin crew forum please.

Right back to F/deck matters please!

EGGW

[ekpilot]

Where did you get that from... Is that published somewhere?

[fo4ever]

And how do you know this???

Who says that you can´t have days off b4 leave. I just asked CRS help about this and they said that there is no restriction on number of days off b4 leave.

Lots of pilots gets more than a 2 xx in a string. Where do you have your info from?

[fatbus]

and this thing about 5 bids a month, wheres that coming from, CC maybe but not the pilots

[White Knight]

And 5 bids a month is a cabin crew thing.......... Nothing to do with us!