Club 328 in trouble????

[Dougle Mcguire]

Hi, just heard that staff at Club 328 have been informed that they wont be paid for January. Is the writing on the wall??

[Monkey Boy]

I was under the impression that Club 328 was now Plane Chartering?!

[jamesarmstrong]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=297332&highlight=club+328

yep, changed hands some time ago to Plane Chartering....

[dc9-32]

Despite the name change, have staff been paid ??

[TP102]

Been paided for Jan as expected and seeing as G-sova went to Cannes and the alps yesterday and is in the swiss alps tonight I don't quite see how that counts as being grounded. G-luxy is being flight tested by the CAA at the earliest opportunity, the last date being cancelled due to the high winds recently. The move to Biggin has now taken place. Any other negative remarks?

[Steak&Kidney_Pie]

So those flight were public transport then?!!!! :suspect:
I wish you the very best of british.

[freerideroj2]

Change their name quite a lot don`t they...can`t remember what it was before bookajet, then club...

[Hasher]

Ourjet, Calljet, bookajet then club 328... it goes on...

[freerideroj2]

Yeah thats them, i couldn`t remember! Must be like flogging a dead cat now!

[FlyingGasMain]

Ho hum, quite a bit of, well, nothing, in here. I got paid for January ok. Where did this rumour come from ? Seeing's I got paid on 31st January, and you posted this on 8th Feb, you seem to be quite slow putting this on here. Care to expand ? I don't mind a bit of good old fashioned mud-slinging, if there's some truth in it, but this seems to be a bit of a 'fishing' line.

[Dougle Mcguire]

A collegue of mine was made aware of this while carrying out an internal safety audit. It was a senior member of staff who furnished him with this information. So if there is any mud-slinging going on..........its from the inside. Dont shoot the messenger, however I think the above posts tell their own story. This is a rumour network afterall, for the sake off the guys/girls flying I hope its not true. Lets just watch this space.

[Flintstone]

Crew/staff meeting today at Biggin Hill. Hope everything is ok.

[NewTimer]

Went tits up yesterday, by all accounts.

Not sure about Plane Charter / parent company.

[Jetscream 32]

your sources are wrong New Timer - a pruning and restructuring would be a more appropriate description......

sometimes companies get into difficult positions through a variety of reasons and have to take harsh decisions to extract themselves out of the poo and get back on the road to recovery...... what they dont need is illinformed people spouting off voicing incorrect information...... :rolleyes:

[LGW Vulture]

Care to elaborate then Jetscream? Then surely the misrepresentation of situations will cease?

Put the record straight for us - come on! :E

[Monkey Boy]

Well, seeing as the Dornier's going / gone then surely a new name would be on the cards! Club *** maybe? Perhaps that's why Plane Chartering stepped in ;)




****Update - Just heard the Premier 1's have gone too! Is this true?****

[NewTimer]

Well, my source says they have made all their pilots and their Continuing Airworthiness Manager redundant at the very least, and indicated that they might not get paid... sounds fairly terminal whatever spin you want to put on it.

:ouch:

[dangerous Good]

Those people that need to know what is going on at the moment have been informed.

New Timer Any chance I could have the name of your source seeing as I'm a pilot for the company and have not been made redundant!!! Please be careful when making comments like this as they are clearly not based on any factual information:bored:

I may be made redundant at some stage but at this moment in time I'm still employed!!

[Jetscream 32]

New Timer - yes this is a rumour forum - but YOUR RUMOURS are incorrect.

The biggin operation is likely to centre around 2 types of aircraft, both that are reliable and accepted as workhorses in the charter industry.

Yes there were cutbacks this week, but there is more than sufficient funds to continue operations - how about you just bite your tongue a little and improve on your maths - 2+2 does not equal 7,392.43.....

Any accountable people as per the EASA requirements for an AOC will either be replaced or still in situ - otherwise you cant operate - can you...!!!

So odds are that if people are still employed which they clearly are then there may be some new people in new posts.....

In the industry we call in RESTRUCTURING.... however normal caveats apply - long way to go and no promises it will be successful - however dont try - dont know.... :=

[dangerous Good]

Well said Jetscream:D

[Tequilaboy]

Jetscream,

If rumours are incorrect, i put aside any crew redundancy rumours as have no steer on that one, how come very very large invoices for suppliers under 328 have not been paid nor will now be paid due to the situation with the company. No need for a rumour mill there! Speaks for itself.

[TSandPSintheGREEN]

Pardon the ignorance but if Bookajet became Club328, how come Bookajet are still operating at EGLF ? Is this an unrelated company now?

[San Expiry]

I apologise for going slightly off-topic but there is a vague connection in the form of the mysterious Quest Aviation that arose from the MBO of Club 328, JETS, Euromanx and 328SSG. Mr Seymour's legacy doesn't seem to be doing too well; Club 328 'restructuring' (that well-worn management-speak euphamism) and it would appear Euromanx is stagnating quietly on the Isle of Man with many of the local pundits writing it off altogether, so just who is Quest Aviation. The Club 328 Dornier Jet and Euromanx's Dashes all appeared on the same 'for sale' fax that was flashed around the world a few months ago.:confused:

[Tequilaboy]

Believe me Quest is nothing to do with WVS.

[2604]

At least one pilot didn't get paid on time. And guess what?

He left...:D

[DC10 Heavy]

Has PC acquired AVTEC @ Biggin? Is the Club 328 AOC still on notice and is the intention to transfer it to Plane Chartering thereby removing Club 328 from the scene? Does anyone really know what is going on with this company?

[TSandPSintheGREEN]

Nope, Avtec deal didn't happen, and PP pocketed a nice fat deposit apparently. Presumably PC will try and complete the purchase at a later date - If there's any money left. Meanwhile, One C550 with neither engine present apparently!!

[Jetscream 32]

that's because one was a loaner and the other one has just been overhauled and about to be hanged in situ of the time ex one and change for another loaner - if that makes any sense.... either way it wont be out for ages....... has been in CAM forecast for months - thats why DW pitched up......!!

[TSandPSintheGREEN]

Um, so is he hoping to run with THREE citations? Or just the two? Apparently certain key post-holders have let go of their posts... CAA still supportive though?

[Jetscream 32]

Couple of post holders have given notice but are still committed to helping the company as i understand by working their full notice period - and not just walking...!! either way the next 30 days will be critical for them, in terms of postholders, investors, and aircraft servicability / availability.... but then again it the problems dog new companies and new aircraft...... as anyone with a Premier will tell you....lol :hmm:

[OOOHAAAH]

Can one transfer the assets of an AOC holder into the clutches of another company, howsover close, leaving debts around the industry and I guess starting the following day with a clean slate ?
does the CAA support this type of action ?
does our industry assume PC is credible if this action takes place and will it support him when he bowls up at a.n.other airport, or fuel provider etc and asks for credit under Plancechartering.......here we go again, the frequent industry entrant thinking he can take us all for a ride.
Are bills being paid ?
does Club 328 still hold an AOC ?
Is Planechartering the AOC holder ?
Illegal charters....whats the chances....I hope the pilots are aware of their invlovement if anything fishy is going on.

[Jetscream 32]

oooerrr or whoever you really are - being as every part of your post is utter crap - why dont you delete it - toddle off to the library, do some homework on the subject then come back for another try....... if you knew anything about PC you would not have written such utter drivel..... and read the ano whilst your there oh and the little bit of paper called JAR-OPS 1... :mad:

[OOOHAAAH]

thanks Jetscream32, as you are clearly in the know and on the inside, simple guidance and answers would help to this genuine question on legislation, not the kind of reply you posted, then we can all learn from your obvious vast experience.

[Jetscream 32]

mmmmm genuine........! me thinks leading and very assuming? - well i can tell you tomorrow will be a fairly decisive day......

:cool:

[Phil Brockwell]

And? Was it decisive?

[Jetscream 32]

put it this way phil....... over water - astro compass only thing working - and bingo light just came on....... but there is land around here somewhere......!! -oh and it's OVC at 500ft to make things better.......

this is really how tight it is.........

standby................!:suspect:

[DC10 Heavy]

Looks like the landing lights have been switched off at CLUB 328/PC...........assets transferred......aircraft grounded............bills unpaid???

[Jetscream 32]

that's funny that must of all happened after 5pm then..........

FYI - there are no assets in the 328 name other than the AOC which is not transferrable.... SOVA is in mx - LUXY on pan both owned by mitre which again is PC but you cant really touch it other than for eurocharges....and DW NE & HM are all privately owned..... yes there are hundreds of creditors.... but the AOC was not suspended tonight.... :mad:

[DC10 Heavy]

Thanks Jetscream....very informative.

So what is the outcome of todays high level meeting?

The industry needs confidence again, all this is not helpful and very damaging.

Is the owner of DW being paid? Apparently not!

Who has stepped in with finance, PP @ AVTEC must be rubbing his hands in glee after being relieved of the burdon!

Staff been paid?

It is all interesting reading, that is if we could believe any of it.

[Jetscream 32]

thats funny - not 2 posts ago you said it was all over now your expecting me to fill you in on all the details..... and also making out that im lying???

sorry - off to the pub..... im sure if your interested you wil find out... being as you seem to know anyway..... :ugh:

[flybypilot]

Heard there was a meeting today for all the pilots, what was the final outcome?

[hawker750]

It will be a case of scarpering before too much s...t descends from above. Yet another company will leave millions of unpaid bills that make it all the more difficult for the rest of us as we will get tarred with the same brush.
Old saying at Biggin Hill: many people/companies arrive in their 421 or 550 with the definitive plan to be the best, make a huge profit etc etc yawn yawn, but only end up leaving on the 401.
For 421 read Golden Eagle
For 550 read Citation
For 401 read the local bus to Bromley

[TP102]

As for the very short term I'm down route in EGJB at the mo so we'll see what next week brings but we ARE still flying for now!
Lets hope what those who need to be told have been told is true and we can all sleep easier by the end of next week eh.
T.

[Phil Brockwell]

Wasn't there a huge pot of money raised for a pre-float plan?

I know it is only rumours at this stage, but are we saying that they are out of money, or that the AOC is not sustainable due personnel / compliance issues?

Phil

[DC10 Heavy]

It's easy really, collect payments in another company name, then claim there are no funds to pay bills. Mitre Aviation, Maritime Atlantic = Club 328/Plane Chartering.

Mitre/Maritime collect, Club 328/Planechartering pay nothing! Easy with a good accountant.

Apparently Mitre has been wound up anyway, so what does that leave?

[x933]

Two Citation II's according to G-INFO...SOVA and LUXY both registered to Mitre Aviation. Surely on that logic if they'd been wound up then the assets would have been transferred to Club 328/Planechartering?

[Jetscream 32]

oh for goodness sake you lot....... PC through nievity and crap advice bought 328 which had already amassed massive debt - he foolishly took on the liability but not many of you seem to remember the previous incumbent and management team that allowed the debt to run up.... this is not all PC's problem and debt - most of it is legacy stufff...... im not wanting to stick up for him in any way...... but your all talking like he has come on the scene from nowhere - started an AOC himself then run up hundreds of thousands in debt....... its just not like that...... he is constantly borrowing from peter to pay paul..... and all, that is happening on here is that you are making the 30 odd people employed by him very nervous.... even more nervous than they are already at having salary payments in stages and late etc...

He is trying and he is trying hard to juggle balls and run a business he can sell - your making him out to be a rip off merchant.... he's not... he has massive cash flow problems and cant keep up..... think of the poor employees for just 2 seconds before you carry on making out the business has gone when it is not it is still flying..... for now...! :mad:

[littco]

We weren't paid today as promised and as a result wont be flying any of the flights this week..

[cldrvr]

So now the second failure first our good friend PM in SEN kicked of an AOC and out of business and now this one. Heard that 247 did not pay any of their crew either. Pretty disgusting when owners refuse to pay their crew.

Room opening up at the bottom end of the market

[DC10 Heavy]

Knew it, perhaps you can ask Jetscream for a sub seeing he is defending the business acumen of PC.

Littco - send me your details we are recruiting.

[Flintstone]

We are owed a ten figure sum by PC

You sure? Even including the pence (after the decimal point) that would be a minimum of £10,000,000:00. You're owed a minimum of ten million (assumed) pounds and you'd write the debt off and open a bottle? You must be loaded.

Couldn't lend us a few quid could you? :E

[Jetscream 32]

whatever.......! have far more important things to do rather than play childish games with you DC10...... quite sad that you cant read tho..... :mad::mad::ugh:

[cldrvr]

Flinty, gues the 10 guy changed his post, only had to count on one hand! He still can't spell though.

[DC10 Heavy]

If you think shafting your staff is childish then you are sad!

We want honest, open debate and the truth.

This industry needs transparency through reputation and integrety, the sooner the charlatans leave the better.

Jetscream I value your input so don't put other people down when you are beaten!

[Jetscream 32]

:}:}:} DC 10 so your now only owed a 5 figure sum???..... you should of written that off months ago......... i know of people that are owed 6 figures..... and it seems that...... hot of the press that friday's deal may have fallen thro and that computers are dissapearing at a rate of knots.....!:uhoh:

[Flintstone]

Calm down DC10.

All I did was comment on your misuse of the phrase "ten figure sum" in a witty, amusing and stunningly comedic fashion (though I say so myself) and you overreacted. For what it's worth I fully agree with your sentiments as far as the payment of employees but really, you need to ease off a bit.

Now, about that loan.............:E

[DC10 Heavy]

No offence taken, can't offer a loan but can offer a job. Will that suffice?

[hawker750]

Look all you guys, how come you were so gullable as to give him credit? We did a few trips for him but only cash upfront. Anyone could see that it was a no hoper from day one so why did you all help him???

[hawker750]

I think a 125 operator at EGKB is looking for 125 drivers right now

[dangerous Good]

Not quite sure whats happening at the moment but can confirm that no money has exchanged hands. Looks like there's going to be 14 or so pilots back on the hunt for jobs soon! I may be wrong and the new owners may come in and save the day but we wont know until the end of this week or early next!

Word is things are a little fragile between the current owners and the perspective new ones, so there may not even be a buy out. Worrying times for us guys with mortgages/rent, bills and young families!:bored: Any jobs out there!!??

[GBALU53]

HAWKER 750

To call pilots drivers is a bit harsh, drivers are for the likes of buses, lorries and similar transport that do not get airbourne.

I worked for a company many years ago and we were haveing bad weather, I turned round to two of the pilots in the crew room and said just as well we have some good drivers on this morning.

The remark was not taken very well, one turned round and said we are pilots and not drivers, so don,t get caught out.

[Jetscream 32]

i think they call that skygod syndrome.......!:ouch::ugh:

[Flintstone]

That's Captain Skygod to you.:O

[x933]

Unpaid staff is the beginning of the end...

...anyone care to speculate who's next? (evil smiley)

[Jetscream 32]

Captain Flintstone sir, please dont punish me - i will stay in the 20 minuters for at least another 3 sorties before emulating your goodself - or should i just call you Lord Flasheart........! Woof - right bring on the girls... and Baldrick bring me a beer...! :}

[CFW's]

JS....your obvious loyalty to Crowther and PC is commendable, but totally misplaced.

For a start, this guy isn't the slightest bit naive....He bought Club328 purely to get hold of the AOC ( see the article in EBAN March 2008) and he knew back in October that he had no intention of keeping either the Premier or the Dornier on the fleet. Crew were told at the time (October 2007) that he and his 'team of investors' had shoved 20 million into the coffers, basically bringing the balance sheet back to zero. So any financial problems now are down to his bad management and dodgy deals, not because of anything inherited from Club328....either that, or he lied (Crowther???Surely not??!!:=) about the initial investment in the first place.:confused:

Those people laid off in February were pressurised ( unsuccessfully, I might add) to sign some cock-a-mammy Compromise Agreement, signing away their rights to any redundancy/holiday pay/pay in lieu of notice etc, at the time, but hopefully to receive all payments over a period of 6 months, starting from June. In addition, there are still salaries owing for the first 2 weeks of February....But he can't afford to pay, apparently. If he can't afford to pay his staff, then the company is insolvent, and he shouldn't be trading.:ugh:

******

[Scratch Pad]

Sure DC10. You can contact me via a PM here. Better still post your company details here and give others a chance. I don't mind competing.

Which company do you represent?

[Jetscream 32]

cfw - sorry old chum - way off the mark... i have ZERO respect for PC, you know as well as i do that the investment never came through and he only bought the company for £1 for the AOC as you state but he took on the liability thinking that getting rid of the expensive - typically unserviceable machines would solve the financial problems..... surely you as a driver can flick through the tech logs like i did and see that the aircraft all flew less than 300hrs each during 07 x that amount of operting and infrastructure cost by the revenue recieved and things quickly paint a dull picture..... If you were foolish enough to sign the compromise agreement.... then there is not much i can do about that ... many didnt and others went for tribunal....

Crowther is not necessarily a crook - but someone that bit off more than he could chew and is now paying the price...... but so is everyone else.....

The glitzy lights of business aviation will repeat this scenario over and over again..... you know it, i know it - do your own due diligence before you go for employment.....

Ho Hum...!

[DC10 Heavy]

Good honest answer Jetsrcream, a lesson learned for everyone. Let us hope this recklessness is never repeated as it tarnishes the business and the reputation of honest legitimate operators.

I think it is now time for the CAA to take a close look at this case to ensure that it does not happen again, an AOC is pricelsss and a treasured possession, keeping it intact needs dedicated, skillful staff who understand the business, not reckless business men like PC.

No value can be put on an AOC and anyone who thinks they can buy one are sadly mistaken.

Lessons learned, hearts broken, lives shattered all in the name of ego, impatience and sheer greed!

[DC10 Heavy]

Thread - Club 328 in trouble = Yes

Club 328 in existence = No

End of Club 328, end of thread.

Next?

[Flintstone]

I disagree. I don't hear the fat lady singing.

Which aircraft types are you recruiting for DC10?

[Jetscream 32]

think you will find PC went bust last night..... endex...! good luck to all the crews and boys and girls - hey sonja come work for me.......phwaaaaa!!:cool:

[FlyingGasMain]

Much as I hate hearing it on here first, I will bite -

Jetscream, can you tell us where you got this information from ? There're a fair few people out here whose careers are in suspended animation at the moment as a result of this mess.

[S Midgeon]

Its true Crowther did not pay the salaries my source says but negotiations are still ongoing Im told as Crowther still wants staff to operate the aircraft while he offloads the business onto a mystery buyer ...any ideas?

[x933]

Planechartering / Club 328 ... RIP 1st June 2008. Confirmed this afternoon by a phone call...

[DC10 Heavy]

Try Direct Air, Oxford

[S Midgeon]

Hold on X93. the fat lady is in the wings warming up but is not yet on the stage. Your call might have suggested the end of Mr Crowther, but not necessarily the AOC or the great staff who have worked for that AOC whilst under extreme pressure for the last 5 months. The present situation is that the staff are at home awaiting payment and will not operate or fly until that happens. Management from that AOC have a meeting with the CAA tomorrow to discuss possible options open to us in future without Mr Crowther.

Its not over yet for us

[DC10 Heavy]

The staff need highly commending dealing with the crap going on around them. They need a huge pat on the back and most of all the wages they are owed.

Question?

If the AOC is salvaged what are the managment going to operate? Club 328 have no aircraft. G-SOVA and G-LUXY are the property of Mitre so if PC goes so do the aircraft. Well that is if Euro Control don't call in the debt and AVTEC are paid?

An AOC is not very much use without aircraft.

[Phil Brockwell]

A genuine question, was it lack of funding, or lack of funding combined with lack of operatiional control? Surely if the latter was true wouldn't that show that "the greatest asset" was under par?

PC didn't run the company on his own did he, with his relative lack of experience, did he not rely on his staff to get him into / out of this mess?

PB

[DC10 Heavy]

Phil, good point but decisions come from the top, not the bottom.

It is my opinion knowing the history of PC that he bit off more than he could chew. You cannot and it is unfair to blame the staff, staff generally do as they are asked for fear of retribution. If you have a good boss you always go the extra mile.

Ask yourself why most of the post holders resigned before the writing was on the wall. Could it be beacuse they saw the incompetance and recklessness from above?

Staff make it work, bad bosses make it difficult especially when they do not understand the business, good bosses make it work and develop their staff not attack them with compromise agreements asking them to sign away their rights to any redundancy, holiday pay, pay in lieu of notice. This in my eyes would have set alarm bells ringing and looking for a change of career.

I rest my case.

[DC10 Heavy]

You took the words right out of my mouth.

[Phil Brockwell]

Sorry if that seemed to blame the staff as opposed to PC. My actual point was, are the skillsets in the company now PC is no more to rekindle the AOC and the business given the financial baggage of the company?

Phil

[DC10 Heavy]

Phil, another good point but Club 328 have no aircraft. How can they rekindle the business?

An AOC with no aircraft, what would the CAA think of that, not a lot!

I am of the opinion that the CAA will withdraw the AOC very soon, sad but true.

[Monkey Boy]

An AOC is not very much use without aircraft.

Almost as much use as having a couple of aircraft without an AOC wouldn't you agree DC10?

[Monkey Boy]

Well quite. It's a good job that there's no one in the South East of the UK doing that! Heaven forbid!

[DC10 Heavy]

PC was brought into this industry with this concept, does it really matter?

Yes it bloody well does - good riddance!

[cldrvr]

You are not referring to the other 3 number outfit in the SE are you? The one that flies one clapped out one, with the other still being held by the investigator? The one that just cannot get an AOC for love or money?

[DC10 Heavy]

247 - 328 say no more

[Monkey Boy]

You are not referring to the other 3 number outfit in the SE are you? The one that flies one clapped out one, with the other still being held by the investigator? The one that just cannot get an AOC for love or money?


Couldn't possibly say - but it looks a little suspect that one (newly joined but curiously well informed) poster suddenly comes alive on a thread as soon as an AOC's up for grabs. Perhaps someone who needs an AOC quite urgently right now because the bills are mounting?

Maybe I'm getting my sums wrong here. Am I putting 2+2 together and getting 247?

[Flintstone]

Errrrr, I think you might be Monkey Boy and I think that might be my fault :\

In my defence I was 'misinformed' too.

Cup of tea anyone?

[DC10 Heavy]

No coffee. white, one sugar. It is sweet where we sit but not in the Kent/Essex front!

By the way we have a very solid, EU OPS AOC with credit!

[Monkey Boy]

To be honest, I thought your spelling, grammar and punctuation was too good to be our good friend! But you can see how the ol' mind was working - biscuit with that?

[TP102]

Anyone looking for Citation or Hawker pilots then?

T.

[cldrvr]

With some biscuits

[DC10 Heavy]

Would not mind a hob nob.

We are recruiting for our Citation family, interested parties please send PM.

Accredited EU OPS AOC holder.

[Flintstone]

Better be quick before the mods delete DC10's post!!!


:{

[DC10 Heavy]

Flintstone, good point.

It is not my intention to recruit through this medium, just trying to offer some support for those guys and gals that may have been shafted by PC.

I do understand PPRUNE rules. Thanks for the heads up!

[Duck Rogers]

I may have become distracted by something. I think I left the gas on (wanders away whistling tunelessly).

[DC10 Heavy]

At least learn to whistle in tune.

[Nibbler]

keep walking, but don't turn on the light!

[Flintstone]

I confess Nibbler, I don't understand that :confused:

[Effohh]

BOOOOM!!!!!:eek:

[S Midgeon]

OK guys, all points taken about 328 and aircraft. An AOC starts with the people in place who have the desire to make it work. I have to say that the team in place at 328 have been just excellent and worked through some bad times trying to make things work when the owner wouldnt pay the bills or was reluctant to provide operating money and the final insult ...refusing to pay salaries. I know that team has a plan which is to be put to the CAA and others over the next 24 hours. Hopefully the same team can then start to scrub clean the bad name 328 has earned over the last months and operate in an hounourable fashion with people who are serious about providing a first class service.

[hawker750]

TP120

An Operator at Biggin (AOC for 34 years) is looking for immediately 1 HS 125 Captain and 1 125 Co-pilot. Could start today!!

[TP102]

Thanks for the heads up Hawker750 but personally I'm a citation man. I hope that might be of interest to some of my colleagues though. As SM says, we have a plan and we now have to see if it works. A few more days will tell either way.

Thanks again,

T.

[Tequilaboy]

.... with the plan, I hope it comes off but ensure you have people that know what they are doing to assist and help execute said plan otherwise all anyone will be doing is prolonging the inevitable.

I think to be honest with all the reincarnations, Chauffair, Bookajet, Club 328, Plane Chartering, the dog is pretty much dead but where there is a will there is always a naive investor!

[Phil Brockwell]

Blimey, I'd totally forgotten that Club328 were made from Chauffairs assets.

Kissed by the Sh!4 fairy!!!!

[cisco2]

based on my knowledge and my experience, Plane Chartering do not have competent post holders, they know how to have a big gold medal from UK CAA, but they do not know how to have a profitable business aviation company, and they do not know how to operate small business jet., If they have a plan, I hope it is to opearte B747 beetwen Luton to Glasgow, but only dry runway, CAVOK, duty of 4 hours max and then rest of 36 hours. Good Luck. If any pilot believe in a new plan, just go away very fast, and try to find a real GA company to lurn your job.

[Crosswind Limits]

Cisco 2

Do the initials "DA" ring any bells? :ok: If so drop me a PM!

Merci!

[S Midgeon]

The initials you are looking for are TDA. His conclusions were arrived at after lasting just 2 weeks in post and meeting one post holder, that was the man who decided he was not up to the required standard and asked him to leave.

[Crosswind Limits]

I did a little work for PC last year. Very quickly decided not to stay. Wish everyone concerned all the best!

[alfiedsavel]

Whats happening to TS the fiance guy and MB the accountable manager are they syill involved?

[S Midgeon]

TS no longer involved and MB still working the helm but has tendered resignation 6 weeks ago because of lack of financial support from PC

[EESDL]

must have been all that PR/Marketing read about in EBAN that helped the final nail to slide home..........
....always sad to see a company falter and individuals affected.....good luck with job hunting.

[flareman]

Cisco 2

'Plane Chartering do not have competent post holders'

Not sure how you have come to this conclusion, anyone with a fraction of knowledge in aviation would know that the Commercial and Sales Team would have contributed to the downfall of the company as well, the business plan for Plane Chartering was to sell empty legs, yet the Sales Team didn't sell a single sector. The costs were terribly underpriced resulting in most flights operating at a loss. To top it all the Sales team managed to earn commission on flights sold not profit made, surely a massive mistake by PC.
I can say with pride that all the post holders, crew and staff worked very hard to make flights happen, often by agreeing to be flexible with days off. The only thing none of us ever agreed to was to do anything illegal, we all have future careers in aviation and respect our industry.
Maybe certain people from a Sales background expected us to operate at any cost, well I would rather be out of work than do that.

Good luck to all the other job hunters.

[S Midgeon]

Just to stop any further rumours. The CAA were asked by the Accountable Manager MB to revoke Club 328 AOC at midday today. This was done immediately. This means that a lot of very good hard working people are on the market searching for work. If anybody knows of anything please post it here as I know most of the guys are avid readers. Best of Luck you guys

[FlyingGasMain]

Well, that's that then. Hopefully PC will not be getting his mitts on an AOC, or be allowed to piggyback on one, ever again. There were a lot of good staff in the company and it was quite an achievement of his to wreck it so comprehensively in the space of a few months.

Good luck to everyone else looking for new jobs.

[DC10 Heavy]

Come on Crowther pay your debts, pay your staff and then disappear into the south of France and tread grapes, that will suit you as you walked over all your staff and turned them to pulp!

[Grum]

Littco, if you're the ex-employer then you owe me one months salary and two months worth of duty pay. :mad: I know where you live.

[littco]

Ok.. The stress of it all has got to me.. I meant EMPLOYEE... Let me know when you're down and If I can afford to buy a beer I'll glad do so :-)

[FlyingGasMain]

Does anyone with a knowledge of law know if it is legal to get revenue earned by one company eg. Club 328 into that company then transfer it into another company, instead of using it to keep the first company going and pay off its debts ? A lot of 328's bills were simply ignored and yet it seems money was being put into the second company. Seems like a case of wilful destruction.

[CFW's]

Charterguy...

There is already a small consortium of people taking Crowther/PC to an employment tribunal, plus at least one person submitting an individual claim. However, in the light of recent events, and as several have already said in this forum, the likelihood of getting anything out of the c:mad:t is rapidly reducing by the day.:ugh:

If it's any consolation, the boys and girls up at Crawley are now looking into the whole sorry state of affairs...more so than before...not heard the last of PC yet.

[paulzenith]

FlyingGasMain,

As with most things, 'is it legal' entirely depends on the circumstances the transfer of funds was made under.

Having investigated the history of the unfortunate Club 328, Euromanx, J.E.T.S. and 328 S S Gmbh, I can only tell you that what we have uncovered thus far would rather imply the response, " I doubt it".

I'm afraid all those who have suffered loss of jobs or non-payment of invoices are most probaly the victims of a much larger situation which has its roots in CJS, several City business men one of whom is the CEO of an extremely large Defence Contractor and a 'rogue banker', who used to work for one of the 'big 5' banks until he went on 'sick leave' in March 2007.

It has been outlined in the press on several occasions since then and undoubtedly will again once Sky has been here to visit us on the topic.

I'm sure that if we can break the story, there may be a chance for others to also get their money - we are rapidly becoming a 'class action' with London instructed Solicitors.

Presently, we have identified at least 2000 other peeole who have lost money because of all this but that is across a whole range of industries.

CJS was the biggest casualty we have identified thus far having gone down in September 2007 owing the same high street bank £113 million.

The fall and immediate rise of Club 328 in October last year is a casualty akin to the recent demise of Euromanx.

In the words of New Labour's old anthem, (let's hope) that things can only get better for you all.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Ff you are rated on CL604, or HS800, check ou the ME thread for ME corporate crew urgently need. Good Gig. glf

[LGW Vulture]

PaulZenith - if the high street bank you are talking about happens to be HBOS - then historically speaking, they had it coming!

Picking up the pieces of Chauffair should have taught them a lesson long before they got into the ***** with CJS. :ugh:

[S Midgeon]

It appears on one hand that PC has stepped aside to allow other shareholders to negotiate the final death throes of Club 328 with the administrator. On the AOC side my insider tells me that he has not given up with trying to keep the defunct certificate. Wonder how he will run it with no staff!!!! Maybe he will decide to advertise ...anybody interested??

[cldrvr]

Maybe PC could offer his AOC to 247, they are not having any luck getting their own. They are two peas in a pot, especially with 247 not paying their crew either.

[Flintstone]

My understanding (from a conversation with one of the ex-post holders) is that the AOC is beyond redemption. It is not suspended, it's gone. It was put to me that anyone wishing to resurrect it would have to start from scratch.

Bloody shame really as I'd been asked by someone with real money to find them an AOC. Might have worked out nicely.

[DC10 Heavy]

Check the CAA website, http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1196&pagetype=90

You will see that CLUB 328 are no longer listed, that means they have no AOC.

[Speedyflyer]

Actually I have it first hand that the CAA had revoked it as the accountbl mngr told em to. But have now re considered and reinstated the AOC and then just suspended only it on request from the company. Probably to be placed into administration/ then sold off... I hear several deals in the offing.

[S Midgeon]

As far as I know accountable managers cant ask for revocation. I have it from my insider that the acc manager told the CAA that there was nobody from the post holders in place to support the operation due to lack of salaries and left them to decide what would happen to the AOC. It would be the CAA I would guess who then decided what to do. Either way who would continue to work if the salaries were not forthcoming

[dangerous Good]

"The three aircraft that were once part of Plane Chartering are all grounded and require a great deal of maintenance expenditure just to get them airworthy. Then if that succeeds do you really think Biggin Hill will let the aircraft depart when they are owed tens of thousands of pounds"

I know for a fact that one of the aircrafts is departing EGKB today. I'm sure if Biggin airport authority were not going to let the aircraft depart they would have turned down the departure request immediately after it was submitted!

I may be wrong. We'll have to wait and see.:bored:

[starsinthereeyes]

As goes for that southend based lot PM and co...

[S Midgeon]

Unfortunately its greed that keeps this lot going as they are paying astronomical salaries to fly "private" trips. Im amazed that some Captains forget to look behind them when they strap the machine to thier arse and ask the simple question ..who are my passengers and then what the hell will happen if I get ramp checked. The sad thing is that some of thier operating crews are what you would call good guys

[Crosswind Limits]

'Private' trips hey! Perish the thought!! :hmm:

[alfiedsavel]

So what happens to the likes of WVS and TS and RS they are the dudes that started this downfall... Club328, Euromanx the boats down in Nice, the banker what happened to him, that went quite...
I mean really...

[robash]

I see that one of planecharterings CIIs is being offered around the charter market by an ex-PC employee, for a different company on a different AOC....

And so it begins...

[TP102]

Exactly: a DIFFERENT aoc and a DIFFERENT company!


Its a private plane NOT owned by PC and therefore now has nothing to do with him. All bills are being paid, not like before.

The other 2 Citations though ARE his and should probably be duly avoided (that is if someone ever puts the engine back on one!).

PC has never and will never have anything to do with the company which is now operating the 3rd aircraft.

T.

[x933]

Undergoing a change of ownership. Phoenix Aviation...rising from the ashes...

[Jetscream 32]

Chaps......lets try and keep up with fatcs here..... G-JMDW was and never has been owned by PC, he leased it from a private owner who is also on these forums, he also lost money to PC, the reason PC took it on lease was SOVA was going to be in for a long time and may in fact never come out....

JMDW is a private owned aircraft fully certified to operate public transport and is SHAG all to do with PC or any supposed Phonix....... No story im afraid as it is back on SL's AOC....

Remember with an aircraft that is on an AOC - absolutely anyone can offer that aircraft through any medium....... they are just a broker no matter what company they came from.... the aircraft owner and some employees are trying to put an aircraft back to work.... this is NOT PC.

[2604]

Phoenix Air was set up when this private owner purchase JMDW from MAS Airways. Phoenix Air owns the areoplane and lease it to companies and that is it I believe.

[x933]

Understood - I couldn't work out the link. Who's peddling it around the bazaars at the minute?

[Crosswind Limits]

Who or what is DA in Oxford?

[NewTimer]

Direct Air | Aircraft Charter and Management Services (http://www.directaircharter.com/)

at a guess.

[FlyingGasMain]

Only the brains of a small squirrel were needed to work out that doing a deal with PC was not a good idea. As DA had considerably more than that, the deal fell through.

[office bod]

As an ex employee, I was wondering if any others had any updated info re official written confirmation / news of P45's before the tax man starts wringing out my nether regions :eek:

[Phil Brockwell]

Anyone know if the Ops Bods have found alternative employment, I may have a lead on a job going.

[office bod]

I believe that 2 of 4 have jobs- 1 now temping (moi) and one more, I believe, still looking although probably for f/o position.

[S Midgeon]

Okay, heres the chance if you are owed money by PC. The CEO who was dismissed by him with no pay has brought a winding up order for Club 328 to court in Brighton next Friday at 1500. Im told that he will be contesting this personally as he thinks he is being hard done by. If she wins the case its bye bye PC and Club 328. All those who would like to support her are allowed in to court if they are creditors and inform her solicitors that they will be attending. Details can be found in Mondays London evening Gazette(on line) Im also told that PC is desperate to keep his company afloat..... so lets go and support the plug pulling

[TP102]

I'll be there if I'm not flying that's for sure and anyone else who possibly can should make the effort. Ironic really seeing as some of us have been asked if we'd like to freelance for him now... ha ha ha!
Be interesting to see if the judge really has any sympathy for a businessman like him with such a huge number of creditors owed money.
T.

[Grum]

I emailed the 'Insolvency Service' asking for the status of 328. They replied;

According to the records available to me on the website at Companies House,
there is currently no record of any insolvency proceedings against Club 328
Limited (CRO 04748427). :suspect:

The number above is the company reference number. You can do a search on Companies House (http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk) to view company details. If there is an 'L' next to it it is in liquidation. This will also list the liquidator's details, if one has been asigned. Further contact details for a
particular insolvency practitioner (IP) can be obtained from the searchable
IP database on our website at The Insolvency Service Website (http://www.insolvency.gov.uk)

The address given for the company is the Maritime House address, which is the only place i can think of to keep calling asking for your P45.


Unfortunately the email ends with;
If the company does not become subject to formal insolvency proceedings you
can pursue it for the money owing to you by any legal means available, upon
which you may wish to take legal advice. :ugh:

Personally i'm all for nicking the avionics out of his aircraft! :E

[TP102]

PC told me 2 days ago it will be liquidated next week...only thing is why should I start believing him now.
T.

[FlyingGasMain]

The staff keep getting told by one of the main investors and the finance manager that the company is winding itself up and that a liquidator has been appointed etc. We're only getting this information by phoning up and pestering people. However, there seems to be no real movement week after week and there has been no formal communication with any of the employees, including a P45. It's bad enough that no-one was paid and the company ceased operation, but to then ignore the staff afterwards is terrible.

The ex-CEO's petition to wind up the company IS scheduled to be heard next Friday and is advertised in the London Gazette as mentioned above.

[Hasher]

I left Club 328 a few years ago and I want to know why the people who really brought this company into the state it is today are not being persued?! This guy PC is the last in the line. I hope you all get your money and jobs soon, I'm owed a grand or so, but thats a diffrent story.
Whats happened to the Aussie ex chief pilot has he got a job and the great great Martin Doetzer is he being looked after?

Hasher

[S Midgeon]

Morning Hasher, with reference to GM and MD. GM is doing some freelance work and awaiting a decision from Direct Air ar Oxford. MD is now Hawker rated and also awaiting word from Direct and has a freelance job working at the Dornier sim in Schipol, and flies the occaisional hospital flight. On a lighter note MD is to get married on the 2nd August and if you are who I think you are you might like to attend.

[Hasher]

The greatest living German pilot ever, he is a Mentor, a skilled aviator and he taught me about maintaining standards.
Well done to the Gent he deserves the love of a good woman, this is fantastic news yes I would love to come if I can or at least send a card etc. can you PM me please.
Ta
Hasher

[ewe.lander]

Flying a Dornier over London Docklands rushing back to EGHI from Eindhoven was always a pleasure with Hauptmann Doetzer - a gentleman!! Hasher would you buy the beers at his wedding, if so the Dornier class of 04 might turn up!!:ok: Happy days dude.....

[S Midgeon]

Hey ewe lander,

Why dont you get in touch and then you can buy the beers ...its long overdue!!!!

[LGW Vulture]

......for anyone interested in leasing / buying G-SOVA here is the spec, just put out by Mr Crowther.

1991 CESSNA CITATION II

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Equipment Specifications

Year 1991
Manufacturer CESSNA
Model CITATION II
Price US $2,950,000
For Lease Call
Location Hove, Great Britain :ugh:
Condition USED
Serial Number 550-0649
Registration Number G-SOVA
Total Time 6900 Hours
Overhaul 0 SNEW / 0 SMOH
Flight Rules IFR
Number Of Seats 7

General Information
Full JAR OPS compliant Citation II C550. Cessna weight incease.

Detailed Description
Full EFIS. Freon Air Con. Zero time motors. This aircraft is to be supplied in first class order, push button JAR OPS compliant for EU Commercial or private operations. FMS, EGPWS, TCAS II etc.


Airframe:
The airframe is low time and in good order throughout. Clean and well maintained with full history. Operated by UK AOC and UK maintenance facility.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engine Specs:
2 x JT15-4. One Zero time rebuild from Dallas Automotive and a second engine "Brand New" from P&W on the new for old scheme. Therefore both Zero time!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prop(s):
N/A
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Modifications/Conversions:
This aircraft features the last integral modifications from Cessna that preceeded the Bravo with the Cessna beefed up gear and additional MTOW. The aircraft also has all the MODS for EU Jar OPS. RVSM compliant. All stc's approved by the CAA. Freon Air Con also fitted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Avionics/Radios:
COMM [Dual] Collins VHF-22A
HF King KHF-950
NAV [Dual] Collins VIR-32A
FMS Allied Signal GNS-XLS
ADF [Dual] Collins ADF-60A
RMI [Dual] Collins RMI-36
TRANSPONDER [Dual] Honeywell MST-67A
DME Collins DME-42
AUDIO CTRL Avtech 5640-1
COMPASS SYSTEM Sperry C14-D
FLT-DIR Sperry FZ-500
ADI Sperry AZ-241
EFIS No 1 Sperry ED-800
HSI No 2 Sperry RD-450
RADAR WEATHER Honeywell ART200
MFD Honeywell KMD540
RADIO ALTIMETER Collins ALT-55
S/BY GYRO AIM AI-804
EGPWS Honeywell Mark VIII
TCAS Allied Signal TCAS-II
CVR Fairchild GA100
FDR Fairchild F1000
ELT Artex 100-4 ELT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Additional Equipment:
Thrust Reversers
64 Cu Ft Oxygen bottle
Freon Air Con
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Year Painted:
2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Year Interior:
2003
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inspection Status:
Recent valuations and inspections carried out.

[S Midgeon]

I wonder if that could be described as an asset to be got rid of before somebody happens along and impounds it for payment to creditors

[Grum]

Looks like a month of my time was spent helping to buy those new engines.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[littco]

"I wonder if that could be described as an asset to be got rid of before somebody happens along and impounds it for payment to creditors"

Could be if it was owned by CLUB328! however it's owned by Mitre aviation.. You can't seize assests from another company even if it is owned by the same person... Make of that what you will!!

[paulzenith]

I can't go to the meeting in Brighton but I would really like to contact Elaine Young as I have some information that I think would aid her case. Does anyone know how I could contact her?
By the way, I agree with Hasher - PC is last in the line. He's not the big fish in all this.

[S Midgeon]

All info for assistance to help Elaine to nail PC should be sent to [email protected] by Thursday

Just so there is no misunderstanding with Club 328. PC bought the company out for a pound with very little debt this had previousley been written off by the group 328 belonged to when they put it into administration. The only reason Club 328 hit the rails is because PCs business plans (4) did not work and the investors in the city lost all confidence in him and his ideas. I knew and worked with the last two CEOs and they both worked bloody hard to make it work. MF was working hard to make it work whilst suffering from cancer and chaired a management meeting just 4 days prior to his death. EY battered her head against a brick wall trying to make PC understand his errors but to no avail. Some honest mistakes were made during this time but then who doesnt?

[Crosswind Limits]

What happened to SS who was ops manager at the start of last year?

[S Midgeon]

Sorry crosswind I dont know who SS is however the Ground Ops Managers have been KM prior to him it was KP prior to her it was MP and before her MB. The Flight Ops Managers going back were BG, AH, and GM. PM me for further elaboration

[FlyingGasMain]

Think that email address should read [email protected]

[Sprint1]

"Just so there is no misunderstanding with Club 328. PC bought the company out for a pound with very little debt ....... "

So he bought a perfectly healthy business with "very little debt" for a quid.
Tell me where he goes shopping 'cos I want one too.

[S Midgeon]

Can I suggest you go to Biggin Hill and wait outside hangar 526 with a shiny pound in your hand. Wait until a guy with no hair and a delirious look on his face comes by and offer him a quid for his company. The only difference with when it went for a quid last time is that now there are no staff

[S Midgeon]

Oh yes and apart from no staff now unlike last time no AOC ...and thats the clue for the reason it went for a pound

[DawnB]

Hello??? Is this the first aviation business to go tits up???:confused:

And??? Is there another side to this story???:suspect:

I would not like to put my name to some of the statements here. the word LIBEL comes to mind. How To Sue Someone for Internet Libel | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/how_2040840_sue-someone-internet-libel.html)

I am also supprised that the moderators have not locked this one down.

Anyway wot wud a chick like me know:O

Dawn

[Scratch Pad]

What would you know? Well clearly you've not bothered to read your own link and/or have no knowledge of the subject matter.

Here's a hint from your own link...In order for someone to sue you for libel, the published statement(s) must first of all be known to be false

Going by that any attempt at sueing for libel would fall at the first fence but then, wot wud (sic) I know?

[x933]

Should point out that Bookajet came from the bones of Club328 and is now doing healthy business out of EGLF...

[TP102]

OK, very simple really. Yes I am one of those ex-employees. My name is Tom Pike and my only grievance is working hard as a pilot for Paul and then not being paid for work already carried out. Plus, when a company can't pay its staff it needs to be closed quickly in a professional manor so that those staff can move on with P45s and the like without having to guess at where they stand legally with regards looking for new work. All I know is I didn't get money that I worked for and that makes me pi**ed off, so I guess I join the end of a long queue by the sounds of it considering this companies truly complicated financial past.

That's all.

T.

[office bod]

As another unpaid employee, my only grudge with the regime is not being paid for my hard work. In my view, all of the staff were acting professionally through a very torrid time and attempting to keep the airline going.

All I want is to get some written confirmation that Club328 has gone and my P45 so that I can officially move on......

[S Midgeon]

Thank God there is someone looking at the forum that is not just another ex employee with a grudge or pilot with a chip. Sounds like a lot of sour grapes on this forum. Club 328 has gone bust. So have hundreds of other airlines recently in this credit crunch, - read the newspapers for a reality check....

Im absolutely amazed at the lofty stance that speedflyer has taken. The above quote is typical of a person that regardless of the problems he has caused to individuals who worked for him through lack of salaries and companies he traded with thinks that he is within his right to behave in such a despicable fashion. It doesnt take the brains of an Archbishop or even a pilot with a chip on his shoulder to realise that this message is straight out of the PC stable and there's only 2 of em left because the rest of the horses have bolted.

[paulzenith]

Hi to all.

My name is Paul Turner.

I have never worked for Club 328, Corporate Jet Services, Quest Aviation Services, Euromanx, 328 Gmbh or J.E.T.S.

The actual amount CJS went down owing the Bank was £113 million on 26th September 2007. This figure is taken from the Price Waterhouse Coopers Administrator's Report issued on 19th December 2007 and lodged at Companies House.

My interest in all this is as a related party to the 'Rogue Banker', employed by the Bank, who went on 'sick leave' in March 2007 and was subsequently sacked.

Since he went, we have uncovered losses to the Bank of at least £300 million across 6 companies. These figures also come from Companies House.

The 'Rogue Banker' looked after 200 + accounts and he was our Bank Manager.

The Consultancy Firm he made his customers use "managed" up to 40 companies at any one time, put with them by the Banker, a total of 120 companies over 4+ years.

The main man at the Consultancy Firm was the controlling party at CJS and, yes, he and the 'Rogue Banker' used CJS planes to go on "jollies" to Barbados, Las Vegas etc.

The Bank denies they did anything wrong and have done since we first made them aware at the very highest level (Board) of our knowledge in late August 2007, prior to the demise of CJS, the MBO that followed and the situation which appears to have given so many on here this grief.

However, inquiries reveal that the Bank put certain persons into these companies whose history shows they misappropriated substantial monies from a Plc in 1991 and got sacked and made to repay the monies (£1.45 million in 1991). It is prescribed as "unauthorised personal expenditure and income".

We hope to receive the original report of the investigation by the Auditors in the near future.

The whole scam is likely to have cost the Bank at least £500 million as a very conservative estimate - we actually believe it is over a billion.

The Bank told the Evening Standard the Banker now works for a German Bank.

This has all been in the press so it is not libelous - it is fact. Not that articles printed in the press are necessarily correct but the statements have never been refuted by the Bank despite the request for comment from them.

Should anyone want more detail (including the moderator who has previously taken a post of mine down), please feel free to PM me.

I have absolutley nothing to hide but I do have a huge amount of substantiating paperwork derived in the main from public records.

Should anyone on this great Forum have information they feel is relevant, I'm all ears.

Best,

Paul

[Duck Rogers]

... the moderator who has previously taken a post of mine down...

Paul.

Your only other post on this thread is #137 which as far as I can see is still there. I have certainly not deleted any of your posts.


Duck

[FlyingGasMain]

EY's petition to wind up the company was heard this afternoon at Brighton County Court. PC had said he was going to oppose it, but didn't turn up. The judge approved the petition and Official Receivers should be appointed within a week.

Hopefully this will start to draw a line under this whole sorry business.

[S Midgeon]

Thats great news Gas Main. There are however a few further issues with PC that Im sure the liquidator will need to track down. Hidden assets, transferred assets and suchlike. I got a message from an ex employee this morning who is now considering with others to take action against PC personally. Once they have him in a court I guess that will for them signify the end. Of course on a lighter note the demise of Club 328 in the courts yesterday will now allow the CAA to take the AOC out of suspension and permanantly revoke it. I look forward to a retort from speedyflyer!!

[Flintstone]

Speedyflyer.

I know you've been here since I invited you to 'go public' with me (the little light beneath our usernames goes green when we're online ;) ) so I can only assume that you won't be coming out. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary my suspicions seem founded.

I've no particular beef with you apart from wishing to see those who worked for nothing paid what they are due. If S Midgeon's post is anything to go by that may well come to fruition. I am only thankful that I got my relatively small amount of money out of you early on.

As for the rest of you, good luck. I know some are finding jobs and I hope the rest are successful.

[Cape Fear]

Rock on, lets hope 24/7 follow suit.

[TP102]

Had a little laugh today when I popped in to the hangar to have a look at sova after that ad was pasted on here to find it still only has one engine and what's more no interior or glass avionics. $3million now seems a bit steep.
Guess they'll be re-fitted when someone buys it........

T.

[DC10 Heavy]

I get rather tired of PC and his lapdogs trying to lay the blame on everyone else for the failure of Club 328, the ineptness of his understanding of the business and his inability to listen to the professionals he had on his staff were contributing factors to the demise.

As the CEO the buck stops with him and not his underlings. He has a lot of questions to answer and a lot of debt to settle, doubt either of these will happen.

It is absolutely obscene of Speed Flyer (PC) to slur the good guys down at Xclusivejet. SL gave PC a platform to promote his business giving him his expert advice and total utter support. Look at the FACTS - once PC started doing so-called 'PRIVATE FLIGHTS' and ignoring expert advice that is when the relationship started to sour, then the bills stopped being paid, sound familiar?

As an AOC holder you have to be totally transparent, no under hand deals, no illegal flying and a reputation to uphold. Who is still going strong? XJC or Club328? The facts speak for themselves.

I congratulate EY for taking her stance and all the ex-employees for their loyalty to this despot, unfortunately the loyalty was only one way and now they are paying the price.

PC where are you? A lot of people want to talk. You can run but you can't hide, as I am sure the authorities will track you down one day and then you get your day in court but in this instance you will have to prove your innocence as we all know you are guilty.

[S Midgeon]

Couldnt help but notice that Plane Chartering(PC) is still advertising flights on thier website under a UK AOC. I wonder what he is using for aircraft considering the E90 is out of hours on both engines,there is a Citation in the hangar at Biggin Hill with only one engine and Club 328s AOC is in suspension at Gatwick and he has no staff!! Could this be wishful thinking?

[AircraftOperations]

Where has the Dornier gone? Sold on? Stripped for parts?

[S Midgeon]

MD tells me that it has been sold on and is to go into Rumania or Bulgaria

[DC10 Heavy]

PC - "Pie in the Sky, where?"

PC - "Can we use it for charter?"

PC - "Do we need and AOC for a pie?"

PC - "Tell you what, don't tell the CAA lets just do it, no one will ever know!"

Of course not, you don't have a crust to buy it, or do you?

If you have a crust I know lots of people who would like a bite!

Anyone want to buy a house in the south of France, if you have a crust you could get it cheap! If you have a pie you could get it for free!

I heard PC auditioned for the new Batman movie but they already had a Joker! So now he has auditioned for Crimewatch, they accepted him at the first attempt!

[dangerous Good]

Any news on the RP1 forms ex employees are supposed to be receiving, so we can claim at least some of the money owed! Seems a painfully slow process.

No correspondence or contact from anybody! Its f_:mad:_ing disgusting the way the whole thing has been handled.

DG

[charterguy]

Can't believe PC's website is still there and has pictures of (unpaid) staff on it, including some staff that he unceremoniously and illegally chopped at the start of the year.

I you are depicted on PCs website, you should contact the webhosting company and ask them to take down the pages containing your picture.

Send your email to [email protected] or alternatively, give them a call.

www. mistral.co.uk
Mistral Sales: (0870) 493 6300
Email: [email protected]

Hope this helps. The sooner this website is down, the better.

CG

[DawnB]

If I was PC I would be asking the pprune host to do something about some of the posts here.

[merlinxx]

Why DaybreakB ?

[dangerous Good]

DawnB NO :=

I'm sure if you were owed as much money as some of us on this site you would not be making comments like that. I'm also assuming you don't know the man, otherwise you certainly wouldn't be making comments like that.

DG

[Newforest2]

I think Dawn is more knowledgeable about ultralight flight than corporate jets, so maybe this is why she has not yet replied!

[Steak&Kidney_Pie]

As a fellow Devon Dumpling, i somewhat feel DawnB doesn't really know what she's talking about......kind of comment that PC would make:E

[DawnB]

I am only a woman in aviation so I don't know $.1t! anyway your not the first people in the world to loose money when a company goes tits up.

I do sense that some of you will moan for the sake of it and this place gives you the facility to do that.

Why would any of you keep working or flying if you were owed a lot of money over a period of time and if it was over a short period then it can't be that much.

Dawn B

[Flintstone]

As an outsider looking in on the 328 debacle I'll beg your forgiveness for poking my nose in here however...

Why would any of you keep working or flying if you were owed a lot of money over a period of time and if it was over a short period then it can't be that much.

Perhaps they kept flying because they are genuinely good people who thought that by doing so they could help?

As for the amount. Excuse me but who the hell are you to decide whether or not it was "...that much"? These people were ripped off. The amount involved is neither here nor there and however much it was (to you) is irrelevant. How dare you be so condescending?

[BizJetJockey]

Well said!!!

[FlyingGasMain]

Sorry Dawn, but have you been in this situation before ? It actually takes time to set yourself up with another job and get out. Three people did manage it before things turned bad, but one deferred his start date in order to help the company out. The other 2 were owed some of their money. Even if you suspect the boss is an eejit there's often a desire to stay and help your colleagues and friends out as much as possible, which is a risk I admit.

The comment about amounts is a bit daft. One month's salary is a fair old whack especially if it's part of your budget. For some of the pilots there were several K in expenses as well, built up over a longer period. On top of which some people took quite a while finding another job and some have not found one. That can start hurting quite quickly.

[charterguy]

You guys (and gals) are all losers. If the guy doesn't pay you, why on earth would you fly ? If he hasn't got the cash to pay you today, what makes you think he will have the cash tomorrow ? I know it is all wishful thinking, but after all is said and done, he will only think about himself and not pay you. As and when your pay is due, and it isn't paid, the show is over. It may not be good news, but that's what it is !!! Start writing your CVs.

brgds
CG

[Grum]

The losers are the people who have not been affected by situation and have no interest in the proceedings yet continue to spend their time reading a multiple page thread on the subject. . . . . . . . at 2:30 in the morning. :ok:

[Flintstone]

charterguy.

I know several of the people that you consider 'losers' and understand that they stayed on out of loyalty to the company and their colleagues. Professionalism I would call it, so you might like to refrain from abusing them.



If he hasn't got the cash to pay you today, what makes you think he will have the cash tomorrow ?

Cash flow. Sometimes there's very good reason why money gets delayed and most reasonable people give the benefit of the doubt.

Might I also suggest that you take the time to read the thread before pitching in? Telling them it's time to start writing their CV's is no good, it all happened weeks ago. If you've any constructive advice to offer them I'm sure they'd love to have it.

[Steak&Kidney_Pie]

All the people that stayed on, were hard working professionals who were supposedly "guaranteed" to be paid, but unfortunately PC went back on his word.

Luckily some of the people have landed on their feet, however, having been a screwed over individual myself, i can from experience say, suprise, that its not very nice!

Until you lose money/get put in this situation, then you know absolutely :mad::mad: all!

Well said Flintstone.

[CirrusF]

Cash flow is only important in companies that are not properly financed. If you have adequate cash resources to run your business, you wouldn't need to prepare a cash flow forecast !

Just plain wrong.


The CAA need to apply 'airline style' financial fitness tests to 'executive charter' startups to prevent market traders like PC getting their hands on an AOC.


If you do that then you stifle all entrepreneurship. France (for example) has restrictive laws like that with the result that there is less entrepreneurship than other countries, and lots of unemployment. In the USA, on the other hand, it is easy to set up businesses and there are relatively light penalties for failing - with the result that there are lots of startups and relatively little unemployment. Which model do you prefer?

Whatever the dismerits of PC, at least he had the drive and energy to set up a company using (presumably) some of his own money, and employed some people for a while who might otherwise have been unemployed. If you make it impossible for startups to get off the ground, you end up with a very inefficient economy. Sometimes startups that scrape the rules at the beginning of their lives grow into very respectable companies - eg Virgin Atlantic.

I agree that it is a very unpleasant experience when your employer asks you to work without pay for a while in an attempt to get through a cash-flow crisis, but that is not illegal in the UK AFAIK (though it would be illegal in, say, France).

Companies go bust leaving debts to suppliers and employees regularly - certainly a very harrowing experience for all, but it is not illegal.

So has PC actually done anything illegal?

[KentishRoman]

I may be mistaken here, but he may well have traded illegally at the end.

You cannot continue to trade if you know your business to be insolvent. Since Plane Chartering were accepting bookings right until the last day even though they appear to have racked up more debts than they could pay, surely that is trading illegally?

Just an opinion and happy to be put right...

[DawnB]

Only one other comment to make and that is ...........edited by moderator


Thanks for sharing your anatomical knowledge with us Dawn but we keep a somewhat more polite ship here. Kindly take a seat in the corner for a few days to cogitate.

Duck
Moderator

[merlinxx]

I hope as hell you wake up one day, and join the real world, otherwise sit on your TOR and enjoy the view.

LoL from Arthur's little helper from Tintagel via the Valleys XXXX

[Flintstone]

charterguy.

I'm impressed that you feel so protective of your crew but the point I'm making, and you seem to be deliberately ignoring, is that these people found themselves in a no-win position. Many of them already worked for 328 when PC came along. They had no say in their new employer.

When things got sticky they had no way of knowing for sure what he was up to. I said before that I had (fleeting) dealings with him on a freelance basis which allowed me to walk away, they never had that luxury. It's all very easy with 20/20 hindsight to belittle those who stayed on but frankly it comes across as unwarranted smugness. Many companies experience cash flow problems from time to time and waving your wallet merely rubs salt in their wounds. Should you ever find yourself needing the goodwill of employees I hope for your sake that you are able to call upon people like these rather than someone inclined to quit because their pay is late. Let's hope your bank never cause any hiccups in your payroll lest you find yourself crewless overnight.

Calling these professionals losers was uncalled for and you owe them an apology.

[Steak&Kidney_Pie]

CharterGuy,

Please do some research. In the UK, should you wish to set up an AOC now, you have to be able to prove to the CAA that you can support your operation for two years, without ANY revenue before licence issue.

PM escaped this really by buying an AOC. Oh, BTW i'm quite sure Mr. Crowther is still lying back in a life of luxury, quite able still to be able to prove the above if he gets his grubby mitts on another AOC outfit....after all, he is a so-called business man :E They always have money.

I think it quite right that an apology be demanded for your crass stupidity in the actions of you putting your fingers to keys without processing the thoughts first!

SKP

CirrusF: Amazing PC like....quite a few usernames which such similar remarks, from such a defensive viewpoint. Nice bit about the legals of the UK compared to France.....tell me......when peoples livelyhoods are at stake, where the f:mad: does just legality come in to it??? This is primarily a morality issue! (Especially for those screwed over!)

[CirrusF]

CirrusF: Amazing PC like....quite a few usernames which such similar remarks, from such a defensive viewpoint. Nice bit about the legals of the UK compared to France.....tell me......when peoples livelyhoods are at stake, where the fhttp://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/censored.gif does just legality come in to it??? This is primarily a morality issue! (Especially for those screwed over!)

I never defended his morality - I just asked if anybody could claim that he had done anything illegal in UK. Has he?

[charterguy]

Cirrus F

I am all in favour of entrepreneurship. Successful entrepreneurs know how much money they will need and will ensure they have adequate funding in place. PC is not an entrepreneur, he is market trader, a wannabe. The CAA has failed in its duty to prevent the paying public from being ripped off by this chancer.

Flintstone

Not sure why I should apologise for other people’s naivety. If they want to work for nothing, they should work for a charity. At least they would be able to go home feeling that they have supported a good cause. I will say this again, if you don’t get paid for your work, get the hell out. You owe it to yourself (and your family) to find alternative ‘gainful’ employment. PC’s promises do not get you any credit at the local supermarket.

Only the lowest of the lowest steal money from their employees !!! I really hope that some of the ex-employees are able to point the receiver in the right direction to put this crook where he belongs.

[Flintstone]

cg.

A remarkable lack of understanding of human nature on your part that an unkind person might say comes across as arrogance. I have worked for companies where a little give and take saw us through a sticky patch or two. Me not storming off in high dudgeon meant that they continued to trade, the company didn't fold, I kept my job, my family were fed and the supermarket got paid. Your black and white approach would have seen no latitude given, the company closed down and more people than just myself in the dole queue. What a depressing state of affairs.

In my experience most people do not subscribe to your views which I have to say makes the world a nicer place.

[Grum]

As a member of the flight crew, I like many of the others, was bonded for a large sum of money. I had wanted to leave this job for a long time, but I could not afford to pay the bond. The debate as to whether these training bonds can stand up in court is irrelevant. I knew by leaving that I would probably be taken to court and I was not willing to take that risk.

No one at the company ever knowingly worked for free. At the end of May we were told we would not be paid for the work done during that month. With that came a feeling of anger at losing a months wages, two months duty pay and per diem (always paid a month in arears) and losing a month of job hunting time. I also had an overwhelming feeling of relief. Not being paid meant that the contract was broken and the training bond could go in the bin. At no time did I play the loyal fool.

I walked away to start again and have since signed an even bigger training bond. Such is the nature of the business. :cool:

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Who owns the 328? Saw it in a hangar at Biggin this morning.

[paulzenith]

Does anyone know who now owns the 2 Dash 8's (serial no. 533 and 541) that did belong to CJS? Or where they are? I'm slightly confused that they appear to be mortgaged to 2 different banks from 2 different companies - and one mortgage was done from euromanx the day before the company went down.
Thanks in advance to anyone who can help/clarify.

[OOOHAAAH]

can anyone confirm that the spectre is still out there trying to do business in the UK ?? rumour or fact ? thick skin if this is the case and a shallow industry if continues to support after all of the reported dirty deeds to us that make a living out of this game.

[CirrusF]

I see PC has put his website back up - and ad for it even flashed up on pprune! Anybody know what he is now doing?

[Flintstone]

Can't offer any advice as to what he's up to but I know the pop-up ads here are Google generated so PPRuNe owner/mods have no control over them.

What's he advertising for? I'll apply! Trojan horse and all that :E

[TSandPSintheGREEN]

This is he: RentJets - Private Planes and Jet Charter, Charter Flights and Jet Charter Services on Private Charter Jets with or without Fractional Ownership costs (http://www.rentjets.com/)

Amazing how our police, our laws, our CAA, and our legal system have no effect at all on this B...:mad:...d who apparently is now splashing out on new cars for himself and the missus, and re-launching himself, obviously sans AOC this time - though maybe the CAA will give him another one for a £1...

... while hundreds of thousands of pounds of unpaid debts, including employee debt remain just that - unpaid...

Crime pays!!

[Monkey Boy]

Well before you all get too excited, that's only a front page using the Avinode platform to get prices. It appears that he's going to be broking rather than operating, therefore no AOC (or indeed aircraft) required.

[AircraftOperations]

How many operators would take bookings from him, if he was acting as a broker?
They'd all need immediate payment I'd imagine.

[TSandPSintheGREEN]

For those interested, the liquidation hearing for Club328 is to be held at 11.30am on 4 December 2nd Floor Sunley House Bedford Park Croydon CR9 1TX

ANyone wishing to lodge a claim, 0208 6678071 or [email protected]

However, don't hold your breath - not a lot there! All gone on PC's new Lambourghini and Range Rover!!

[TSandPSintheGREEN]

The hearing was postponed for seven days apparently. Assets available for distribution were £10,500 and debts totalled circa £2,400,000. 240 into one doesn't go? HMRC will probably get any scrapings that are left in the pot, sadly the crews are unlikely to see anything at all, - as for the creditors - :ugh: no chance!!! As long as PC gets his new car, and the private school fees are all paid, that's the main thing...!

[Level 400]

Regarding the last 2 posts, apparently Crowther turned up at the initial hearing on the 4th December, stating that he's also a creditor and is owed a total sum in the region of £1 million!!:rolleyes:

This guy has the hide of a dozen rhinos!! I'm surprised he wasn't lynched on his way out....living in hope, and all that:ugh:

[robash]

chatting to an ex colleague of mine who mine who now works for a FAB based operator and PC is still calling for quotes on their aircraft....they're not interested in supplying him but it makes you wonder if there are people out there who will give him their money!!!

[Phil Brockwell]

I have no doubt that there are plenty of operators who will take his money - up front of course. I'm not aware of anyone who can afford a moral victory just now.

[Affretage]

I'm not aware of anyone who can afford a moral victory just now.

.... except those companies with a reputation to uphold, perhaps. :ugh:

MS
Affretage

[el sol]

the rentjets.com website seems to be pretty convincing.............:eek:

[Flintstone]

Rentjets is run by Paul Crowther. A pilot and jet aircraft owner. Financial backing comes from a 20 year old property and shipping empire. Sister company Maritime Atlantic Limited and partners Jet Fly UK (operator) and Jet Fly Poland also provide low cost jet operationsand the special relationship between the companies mean we can provide our PRICE PROMISE.

Waffle waffle blah blah, but here's the best bit:

Financial security. In these uncertain times would you hand over tens of thousands to a complete stranger? (No Paul but I would expect you to hand over the thousands you owe to the people you know). By using an agent like Rentjets ('Like' them. Preferably not them), you know we are acting on your (Ours actually) behalf and will do our best to protect your investment. We wtrack (sic) the financial viability of the operators we use (Well you'd certainly know what to look for) and only pay at the last moment (Preferably never).................although we cannot guarantee the stability of the operator (There's a lot of us dodgy types about)...........we are there to look after your best interests (Just so long as they come after ours).

[Sepp]

I think there's a Freudian slip in that there typo ... "wtrack":

wrack
n.
1. Destruction or ruin.
2. A remnant or vestige of something destroyed.

[Arkwright]

The website leaves a lot to be desired.......it is unnecessarily small, it looks cheap, and it is grammatically incorrect with the first word..... The plural of Aircraft is Aircraft, not "Aircrafts".

There are then numerous typo's and spelling mistakes......just what the discerning corporate jet charter customer needs for reassurance in a startup company.

I wish them luck.....

[PPRuNeUser0215]

I like the bit on their website in the "about us" section, under the header "Financial security".

- In these uncertain times, would you hand over tens of thousands to a complete stranger, etc... ?

Better be a stranger than known for certain things ;) methink. :cool:

Good luck to rentjets.com

[Hot 'n' High]

OK, H ‘n’ H might be suffering from combined heat exhaustion and altitude sickness but, if you look on the Rentjets website under “About Us” “Financial Security”, is the pic not of a U2? :confused:

Yep, that U2, ex-CIA spy plane of Garry Powers fame! Surely the most bizarre Executive Jet so far! :ok: Tell me it's just the heat? Please? :eek:

[Arkwright]

It looks like 'someone' (Hello Paul!) from Rentjets.com is watching this thread......either that or its a complete coincidence that some of the spelling mistakes have been corrected.......'Aircrafts' has now been changed to 'Aircraft' !!!! :D

LOL! The power of pprune! :ok:

And no Hot 'n' High, you are not suffering from heatstroke, that does look like a U2......yet more evidence of failing to attend to detail.... :ugh:

Maybe someone should ask Rentjets.com for a quote on it? :O

[Hot 'n' High]

Maybe someone should ask Rentjets.com for a quote on it?

Perhaps the CIA already have! :E Know the U2 was supposedly long gone but....

[sangiovese.]

Gets better...........

Citation 550 & King Air Pilots - London and North Europe - 200364585 - Flight Jobs (http://www.flightglobal.com/jobs/job/citation-550-king-air-pilots-london-and-north-europe-london-200364585.htm)

:ugh:

[PPRuNeUser0215]

As per the advert...Long hours guaranteed!

And on the website/about us/ Safety... There are unscrupulous operators who operate private planes without proper licences.... Our experience is there to protect and serve the 5000+ clients in our database.

Never seen anywhere that in aviation, having pilots doing garanteed long hours was in the best interest of any customer's flight safety. Even if following FTLs, which I am sure, when they say long hours, they mean within the spectrum of the law.

[Flintstone]

I like the bit on their website in the "about us" section, under the header "Financial security".

- In these uncertain times, would you hand over tens of thousands to a complete stranger, etc... ?


Pay attention lad! Post #260 ;)



A naughty person with time on their hands might decide to send rentjets.com a message via the application page here Apply online - Flight Jobs (http://www.flightglobal.com/jobs/jobseeker/applyforajob.aspx?id=200364585)

They would have to include something as a CV. Someone might have used this picture :E....http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ONtmdv6SuWUYWM::http://tarahsmith.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/mooning16991.jpg



Rentjets.com Rentjets.com Rentjets.com Rentjets.com Rentjets.com Rentjets.com Rentjets.com Rentjets.com Rentjets.com Rentjets.com

[Aeronaut_01]

Hey redsnail ... just to let you know Ambeo are dead in the water :p - old Rob 'Frankie' Spencer has been moved sideways for obvious reasons :{ and I would love to know how many times they were mentioned to get top billing on Google - costs me a fortune every year. Anyway, onwards and upwards as they say :ok:.

[Flintstone]

Given the number of ex-employees still owed money I've taken the liberty of editing your quote in anticipation of your position six months after working for rentjets.com ;)

pick me - I work for free.

[FlyingGasMain]

"Citation 550 & King Air Pilots required for EU based AOC charter operator at new base in London and North Europe."

Wonder where the new base is ? Inside Crowthers head I expect, same place that the 15 aircraft by the end of 2009 were sitting when he spouted his world domination plans to the 328 employees.

[solent]

Does anybody know where G-CJAB and G-CJAG and G-CJAH ended up, havent seen them flying with another operator recently????

Any clues!

[x933]

G-CJAG was with Xclusive - briefly - but didn't make it as far as the AOC before the owner put it up for sale. Believe the Dornier went to the continent and is registered in the same fashion.

[NewTimer]

Believe CJAG was taken away from SL at Xclusive and is currently being looked after by Manhattan (although last seen at Oxford undergoing maintenance).

[Level 400]

G-CJAH went to Weber Management and is now OE-FWW; G-CJAG is now being managed by Manhattan, but not sure how that will work as owner is in the luxury boat-building market and, therefore, direct competition to Sunseeker, who fund Manhattan.
G-CJAB was supposed to be sold to Aerostar in the Ukraine, but the deal fell through. A few private investors have shown an interest in the aircraft, but the numbers were never quite right! Still at Biggin, gathering dust.

[Privatejetbroker]

ahh, bless the poor CJAB. that aircraft bailed me out when the ever unreliable Prem 1 (CJAG I think it was) had a damn and blasted flaps failure on approach to biggin and had to return to Stansted.......

[Level 400]

I would take issue with the Prem being 'ever unreliable.'

Its early problems were mainly due to some of the crews who didn't have any experience on it and didn't understand it, grounding it on virtually any pretext.

It got a bad press on the reliability stakes which is in most cases undeserved.

I do agree that OE-HAA which became G-CJAB was a great ship though and I hope it flies again! Soon!

400;)

[TSandPSintheGREEN]

Any ideas why GCJAG left the Xclusive stable for the Manhattan one?

[OOOHAAAH]

why not ask Xclusive perhaps they may know best ??

[Gulf4uk]

hi

Saw the referances to G-CJAB well appears to on the move again
see information posted on Skyliner .

G-CJAB Corporate Jet ferried 18 mar 09 SOU-OBF after storage

Hope that helps update things

TONY