JAR license in France

[bobdee]

OK, I know this has come up before, but there still seems to be no answer to the general mess that appears to be the norm re the above.

1) I have a UK issued JAA PPL(A) license.

2) I now live permanently in France and have been told by the CAA that as France does not issue Class 2 JAA medicals, I have to find other means of meeting my yearly medical examination requirement.

3) One of the options was to get a medical done in Spain, This I did and now the CAA are happy that I am in compliance.

4) Went to the local French Flying club yesterday and they were bemused by the UK license and the Spanish medical. Initially they could not believe that the French Class 2 medical was not accepted by the UK.

5) They checked with the local and Parisien Aviation Civil and were told that with a UK license and a Spanish medical, I could not legally solo in a French registered aircraft.

6) Talked to the CAA medical group in UK yesterday evening, and whilst expressing every sympathy, said there was nothing they could do to help, but did give the name of the top guy in the French admin and suggested I contact him directly.

7) I am in the process of drafting a suitable letter, but thought it best to avail myself of the collective wisdom of this forum to see if anybody has resolved a similar situation.

BobD

[homeguard]

They've got you by the proverbials and there is only one thing to do.

Get a French JAA PPL issued on the basis of your UK licence. The french will accept the french class 2 medical, won't they. You do not have to give up your UK PPL which has been issued to you for life.

If in fact your UK licence is a JAA one then transfer the administration of it to France.

[bobdee]

As far as I understand from previous postings, if I get a French license on the basis of my UK one, (just like you can swap your UK driving license for a French one ), I would have to give up my UK JAA license and the French JAA one would not be valid in the UK or in Spain or in Germany etc., as the French medical is not UK JAA approved. YUK..............

[homeguard]

There is no such thing as a French or a UK JAA Licence. You hold a JAA PPL licence which is adminstered in the UK. Change the administration to France. The french then become the arbitor on the validity of the licence. In which case, If the french say that you are legal, then you are.

As the holder of a valid JAA licence (administered in France) then you may legally fly any JAA aeroplane anywhere in the world. As you live in France your life will be easier.

[IRISHPILOT]

A pink drivers licence does not get swapped anymore, you keep your UK one and can't get points on it abroad. No requirement to swap whatsoever.

Same goes for your JAR PPL, no need to swap, however, there are differences in JAR licences from country to country.

Example: a German JAR licence cannot be signed by any other than a German examiner for renewal, etc, etc.
Nor can a German examiner sign a non-German JAR licence.

The same goes for the French JAA medical, which is not acceptable everywhere, as rightly stated. I would be very careful swapping a UK JAA licence for this reason.

I am afraid that homeguard is mistaken: It is not sufficient to have mutual recognition, any JAR member country can at any time decide that what another country does is not fully in line and not accept their licence or medical, and this is done.

The fact that your UK PPL with Spanish medical is not acceptable in France, is proof for those local differences, so you may want to swap your Spanish medical for a UK one (I believe there is a form on the UK CAA site to be filled out and posted with the Spanish medical and GBP20).

Or could you now get a French medical to satisfy the French too? Maybe just a paper exercise...

cheers IP

[homeguard]

Dublin Pilot

Of course their is mutual recognition. The difficulty is the interpretation of the rules by each state.

bobdee is in what I think is a messy situation. He lives in France but continues to hold a UK issued JAA PPL with a Spanish medical all of which needs to be administered by the UK.

If as Dublin Pilot states the UK will issue a UK JAA Class 2 medical on the back of the Spanish one, then OK. However, should that be the case, does it mean that each year bobdee will have to travel to Spain for his medical and then each year post it to the CAA to have the UK JAA medical issued, what a palaver.

If bobdee is permanently living in France surely life will easier to undertake all the administration in France. With a french JAA licence with a french JAA medical who should challenge him then.

Should bobdee move back to the UK he can then transfer the administration once again back to the UK.

[dublinpilot]

Dublin Pilot

[...]

If as Dublin Pilot states


I haven't posted on this thread...well not until now anyway :O

There's more than one pilot in Ireland ya know :}

dp

[IRISHPILOT]

Well, the next big Spanish city is a 2 hour drive for Bob, and he never wrote that this was a problem for him once a year.

Don't think Dublin Pilot has added much to the post yethe is most welcome), but homeguard is confirming what I wrote about mutual recognition. And Irishpilot is not from anywhere near Dublin. :p

One more thing comes to mind, Bob, if the UK does not accept a French JAA class 2, do they accept you flying with that medical (and the French JAA PPL) in UK airspace and G reg aircraft? Be careful, it is not correct that "If the french say that you are legal, then you are."

please have a look here (I couldn't open it due to trouble on my computer, but hopefully it explains the process):

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1202.pdf

cheers IP

[homeguard]

irishpilot

Please accept my apology for mis-naming you.

French JAA private pilots presumably hold french issued JAA class 2 medicals. Can we actually envisage that the UK CAA or any other authority following a ramp check, would proscecute or ground the french pilot. That they would take this action because the UK dissagrees with the french issued JAA class 2 medical that the french pilot, quite properly, has attached to his licence.

Or is there more to know that so far remains unsaid.

The form link that you provide is to transfer the held JAA medical from one state to another when also transfering the licence to another state.

[IRISHPILOT]

The French have regularly grounded airliners with pilots over the age of 60 from other countries (also JAA) in the past, so I don't think there would be much to stop a PPL in the UK, flying G reg with a JAA licence and a medical that is not JAA (In the eyes of the UK CAA of course, but that is what matters in the UK).

Am just saying to watch out. - The UK licence is one of the most widely accepted licences and before you swap, it is important to look at possible problems...

If Bob comes back on here and cannot find the form, I will try to dig it out for him.

all for now, IP

[bobdee]

Hi Guys, Thanks for the comments. I have spoken to CAA UK this morning and they say you cant get a non UK medical transferred to a UK one. There is a procedure for transferring a non UK JAA state licence to UK but not just the medical.
The bottom line is that they (CAA) medical say I should talk to the senior chap in France and that I will do. Just holding off at present as I think the French Flying club I have joined are also doing something and I wouldnt want to cut around their efforts.
CAA also confirm that while there is no problem in French PPL's coming to UK in French registered aircraft, there is a problem, in fact its not legaly possible for a French PPL to hire and fly a UK registered aircraft, say for example on holiday in the UK. His French class 2 medical is not JAA and therefore not accepted as valid in the UK. I wonder how many UK flying clubs know this?

Re Spain, there are quite a few Spanish AME's all offering JAR class 2 medicals. I went to one in Alicante, but they are all over. The easiest way to find one is to contact a spanish flying club for the name of their local chappie.

I have just looked at the form linked to in the earlier post and it seems to be for Class 1 medicals.

Wiill report progess or otherwise.

BobD

[LH2]

5) They checked with the local and Parisien Aviation Civil and were told that with a UK license and a Spanish medical, I could not legally solo in a French registered aircraft.


I do fly in France (and abroad) F-regs (and others) on a UK-issued JAR PPL and (until recently) a Spanish class 2 medical. Is it illegal? Go on then, sue me. :rolleyes:

thought it best to avail myself of the collective wisdom of this forum to see if anybody has resolved a similar situation.

Find another flying club. :cool:

[Whopity]

JAR-FCL 1.070 Normal Residency

Normal residency means the place where a person usually lives for at least 185 days in each calendar year.

JAR-FCL 1.065

For administrative convenience, e.g. revalidation, the licence holder may subsequently transfer a licence issued by the State of Licence issue to another JAA member State, provided that employment or normal residency is established in the State.

Is the French Class 2 issued in accordance with JAR-FCL 3? I gather there is some doubt about this. If the French do not accept the Spanish Medical report them to EASA for failing to comply with JAR-FCL. After 2012 they won't have any choice!

[BackPacker]

I'm trying to understand what the exact issue is here, as France is a JAA member state and therefore should implement JAR-FCL.

But from the posts above I understand that France does not do a JAR-FCL compliant Medical Class 2, but instead has its own internal medical exam, which is not fully JAR-FCL compliant, but is required to fly an F-reg? And they don't accept JAR-FCL compliant class 2 medicals, issued outside of France, for that?

That is the only way I can explain the following:

CAA also confirm that while there is no problem in French PPL's coming to UK in French registered aircraft, there is a problem, in fact its not legaly possible for a French PPL to hire and fly a UK registered aircraft, say for example on holiday in the UK. His French class 2 medical is not JAA and therefore not accepted as valid in the UK.

What we really would need here to confirm this is a reference to the French equivalent of the ANO. But I somehow presume that that'll be in French...:bored:

[BackPacker]

Further to my post above. I browsed the French DAC pages a bit, and here's what I found.

There is a document on their website (here: http://www.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/html/prospace/reglemen/RTA3-LICENCES/3_APTITUDE_MEDICALE/arr021288med.doc) about medical requirements for pilots and if you open it, at the top it says:

Attention : Les dispositions concernant le personnel navigant professionnel ont été abrogées et remplacée par le FCL3. Le présent arrêté reste applicable au personnel navigant privé.

Which means as much as the following:

The rules about professional pilots have been replaced by FCL3. These regulations only apply to private pilots.

So for private pilots, the French authorities are simply not following JAR-FCL3 with regards to medical examinations and licensing. That might be the reason that you cannot get a JAA Class 2 in France: virtually nobody there needs it.

Now what exactly happens if you hold a non-French, but JAA PPL and want to fly an F-reg is a mystery to me and will require far more browsing of French legal text to which I am not up to scratch...

[proctor]

With all this legal exciting legal talk (!) going on, I thought I'd ask a quick question that's been puzzling me for a while.

I have a French-issued JAR PPL and a French Class 2 medical. In France, , there is no additional R/T (or whatever it's called) licence, as the theory exam and skills test are considered sufficient. So when I took part on the club fly-out to Duxford last year, there was a whole troop of French pilots flying in English airspace without valid (in the UK) medicals and without licences to use the radio. The level of English required was notionally regulated by club, and France being France (I mean that in the nicest possible way) was therefore not really regulated at all.:eek:

I'm taking it that because we were in F registered aircraft it was all above board. Is this the case?

[BackPacker]

Proctor, it is an ICAO agreement that if somebody holds a PPL or above and flies legally in an aircraft registered in the same state as where the PPL was issued, then all ICAO countries will accept this combination as legal, normally. Although countries may and sometimes do specify additional rules.

So if you have a French (JAR-FCL or national) PPL, a French (JAR-FCL or national) medical and a French-registered aircraft, then you can legally take that combination around the world, as far as ICAO is concerned.

As far as I know, the UK is the only JAA country that requires an R/T practical exam in addition to the theory exams and the skills test. I found the exam mostly fun anyway. But it is striking that the country that has, percentage wise, the highest number of English speakers in the world, requires an R/T practical where, amongs other things, your English language skills are tested, and other countries do not.

I guess the controllers at London Info must have been selected for incredible patience before allowed on the weekend shift. The classic that I've heard was:

"D-ABCD, pass your message"
"<Very longwinding message in pseudo-English>, D-ABCD"
"D-ABCD, you have a Flight Information Service, the QNH is 1013, squawk 1177"
"Er, Er, squawk 7700, D-ABCD"
"D-ABCD, negative, squawk one-one-seven-seven"
"Er, Er, Squawk 7700, D-ABCD"
"D-ABCD, negative, squawk one-one-seven-seven"
silence, until somebody came on line
"D-ABCD, du sollst squawk eins-eins-sieben-sieben einschalten"
"Ach so, eins-eins-sieben-sieben, D-ABCD"
"D-ABCD, London info, correct. And whoever that was, thank you."

What bobdee referred to was French pilots holding a French-issued JAR-FCL compliant PPL, but a non-JAR-FCL (French) compliant medical, wanting to rent G-reg airplanes in the UK. To fly a G-reg you need a PPL and a medical that is acceptable to the UK authorities. The French JAR-FCL PPL is, but the French national medical is not.

[proctor]

Cheers BackPacker. That's pretty much what I thought - just seems a bit counter-intuitive when it's such a regulated environment that, like you say, foreign pilots can fly in British skies with such a tenuous grasp of the language. Not complaining though, I don't think...or maybe I am...depends on your perspective I suppose.

[Three Yellows]

I am being very very stupid to say

"I thought that the JAA was supposed to sort all this out?" and "What makes us sure that EASA will do a better job?".

I thought we were supposed to be one big happy family. Clearly there is a very very long way to go.

[gyrotyro]

I have also just been through these hoops put up by the CAA when I renewed my UK issued JAA PPL(G) a couple of weeks ago.

I am British, a French resident and have a French medical (£20 inc an ECG !). The CAA would not accept my medical and so I had to travel to the UK and obtain a UK JAA medical (£85 ) I now have my licence renewed.

My JAA PPL(H) is due for renewal in May but I have decided to vote with my wings and am going to transfer it tot the French regime. Liberty,egality and cheap wine.

The CAA were all friendly and sympathetic but the system dies not work even though the CAA web site ticks the box for mutual medical recognition for France but only for JAA medicals. The fact that a JAA medical is not possible seems to have evaded them. My French medical say "Class 2" on it and the examination was actually more comprehensive than the UK one.

It will cost me £39 to have the CAA verify my licence details but still better than the £65 renewal fee.

Bye bye UK

I still have my lifetime UK issued CAA licence so I can still use its privelidges ? If that means being messed about by paper pushers.

[skydriller]

Hi Bob,

I went through your exact predicament last year, and posted about it here:
:http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=247716&highlight=France+JAA-PPL

As for
5) They checked with the local and Parisien Aviation Civil and were told that with a UK license and a Spanish medical, I could not legally solo in a French registered aircraft.

I think you have been mis-informed. The French accept a valid JAA Licence without question, which to be valid needs a JAA medical, It is the state of licence issue that accepts (or not) the medical, not France. I feel the poeple you have talked with are confused and think your licence is a French issued JAA licence, for which they naturally require a French Compliant Medical in order for it to be valid, as it isnt actually a full JAA-PPL.....

When I spoke with the French authorities last year (Possibly it was the senior French guy you refere to!!) it was suggested by them I should go to spain for a JAA compliant medical, as they know the DGAC one is not JAA compliant.....

I say again, if the CAA are happy your licence is a Valid JAA-PPL, then the French will accept it - get your aeroclub and the DGAC to phone the CAA Licencing Dept......Believe me , I went through this last year!!

Regards, SD..

[skydriller]

My JAA PPL(H) is due for renewal in May but I have decided to vote with my wings and am going to transfer it tot the French regime. Liberty,egality and cheap wine.

Thats a big decision, I think you should look into what is actually involved in Transfering your licence to French administration and what you will give up by doing it.

I too am a brit living here in France and have a UK issued JAA-PPL. I looked into this last year (see the link I placed above), and the DGAC wanted me to pass all the PPL theory exams again in french and then pay them a few hundred Euros for the previlidge of switching to French state JAA-PPL licence administration. The switch also results in my medical being valid for 2 years not 5 (or 1 instead of 2 depending upon age) and also means that although flying an F-reg is no different to before, I cannot legally fly an aeroplane of any other JAA registration outside of France (or even inside france depending upon the Reg...). Another thing to consider is the IMCR....

My decision was to hop on a flight to the UK pronto to get a JAA Compliant Medical.......

Regards, SD..

[BackPacker]

Did you guys ever tried getting a JAR-FCL Class 2 compliant medical in France, where an AME who is qualified to do JAR-FCL Class 1 medicals (after all, the French use these, as I understand) simply fills in the paperwork, and then sends the lot off to the UK to get the medical issued?

After all, you can get FAA medicals everywhere in Europe. Why not a JAR-FCL class 2 in France?

I know that a French AME will by default issue you a French national class 2 medical, but if you insist, would there be any reason for him not to do a JAR-FCL compliant examination?

[skydriller]

Backpacker,

At the time I didnt try, because I was told that there were no French AMEs able to issue JAA Class 2 medicals any longer, this is because all AMEs were autherised by the DGAC who now say the French Class 2 medical isnt JAA Compliant, Unlike a French Class 1 which is fully JAA compliant.

BUT I was told last summer by a guy working for airbus that there was someone in Toulouse doing JAA Medicals for Brits/Germans/Spanish etc at Airbus, HOWEVER, couldnt confirm it was for JAA class 2 Medicals and obviously it could have been for JAA Class 1.....

Regards, SD..

[BackPacker]

The way I see it is that the AME checks your health and then sends his findings to the appropriate aviation administration. It's the aviation administration who makes the decision whether you're fit to fly (based on these findings) and then issues you the medical.

So I'm only suggesting that it might just legally be possible for a French AME to fill in the appropriate British forms, send the whole lot to the UK CAA, who then issues you the JAR-FCL class 2 medical. Or, for that matter, fills in the appropriate Dutch forms, send the whole lot to the Dutch CAA (called the IVW actually), who then issues you the JAR-FCL class 2 medical.

But to be honest here... My medical is a Dutch JAR-FCL one, and I am by no means an expert on French aviation law when it comes to medicals. Maybe there is a rule somewhere that your medical has to be issued by your country of residence, or that aviation authorities only accept examination results from AMEs in their own country. Or something else making this scheme impossible.

[Maoraigh1]

There are two kinds of CAA issued JAR licences. When I changed address, the CAA issued me with a JAR license, with a new number, but without the wording "can be used in other states". This licence, like my old UK one, is for life.
They wanted to see my logbooks, and if I remember, £160 or so, to give me a time limited full JAR licence, "valid in other states".
By changing my licence number, they made my restricted FAA license invalid.

[skydriller]

There are two kinds of CAA issued JAR licences.

Really, I thought there was just the JAA-PPL and the old CAA PPL issued by FCL at Gatwick?

Regards, SD..

[bobdee]

Have to report that following a conversation with the Chef du bureau médical de la DCS PN, I have an Email confirming that my UK JAR license with Spanish medical is accepted by the admin to fly French Registered AC.

SD, I did read your previous posting and based on this I thought I had a good case. The difference was the Spanish medical.

LH2. You cant blame a club for being cautious in checking out license validity given you are flying their aircraft on their insurance.

Anyway. happiness reigns in this neck of the woods, and now I just have to complete my minimum hours by April to keep the license current.

I will still go the Spanish medical route next year. Cost about 100 euros and convenient if you can combine the need for a medical with a Spanish break.

I have to say that the folk at CAA medical did their best to help me at all times. Not their fault that the French have somewhat different rules. I still dont undestand why the French Class 2 medical is not accepted by other JAR states, but I think its more a case of French laws not allowing personal medical details to be passed to others. An amendment to existing privacy laws would apparently be required and this is a major thing in the French constitution.

Thanks to all those that participated in what has been an interesting thread.

BobD

[Whopity]

CAA also confirm that while there is no problem in French PPL's coming to UK in French registered aircraft, there is a problem, in fact its not legaly possible for a French PPL to hire and fly a UK registered aircraft, say for example on holiday in the UK. His French class 2 medical is not JAA and therefore not accepted as valid in the UK.I don't know who told you that but its utter nonsence. So long as you hold a license and medical that comply with ICAO Annex 1 and its issued by an ICAO State e.g. France, then you can fly a UK registered aircraft in accordance with Article 26. They could of course say your UK issued licence is not valid with the French medical.

[bobdee]

Hi Whop.
As stated, the info was from the CAA medical section. The point, as has been repeated loadsa times.. The French Class 2 is not recognised by the UK or any other JAR' states. Call the CAA and get connected to the medical section and ask. Its no doubt a fine point but I guess its down to license validity and insurance status.

BobD

[Whopity]

Say no more; they may not accept it with a UK JAA licence but, their interpretation is incorrect with regard to the French medical on a French issued licence for renting a UK aircraft. Article 26 permits the operation of UK registered aircaraft on the basis of any ICAO licence JAA or otherwise.

[Zen Pilot]

Apparently the Centre d'Expertise Medicale de Personnel Navigante Toulouse-Blagnac (www.cempn.com (http://www.cempn.com)) can issue medicals that are fully recognised by DGAC, JAA, CAA and FAA. Class 1, Class 2, whatever you want ....
And access to anyone - not just Airbus - just make an appointment plus allegedly relatively low cost compared to UK AMEs.

[skydriller]

Bobdee,

Have you heard any more on this? I stand by what I said earlier about the JAA-PPL licence validity being the important thing for the French as a JAA-signatory state, as this is what needs to be recognised by the French. Your medical needs to be recognised as valid by the JAA/CAA who issue your licence, to make that licence valid. What did the top guy at the DGAC in Paris say?

Regards, SD..

[bobdee]

Hi SD,

I did post the good news as soon as it happened. Have a look at "Success".
Regs
BobD

[skydriller]

Great News BobDee!!:D

Sorry I missed it earlier:O