Citation down -- Augusta, Maine [Archive]

Shore Guy

4th Feb 2008, 23:14

Original report.......follow up below

Telecom pioneer, son die in plane crash
CEO WAS PILOTING THE CRAFT IN MAINE
By Dana Hull
Mercury News
Article Launched: 02/03/2008 01:39:31 AM PST

A Bay Area telecommunications pioneer and her 10-year-old son were killed
Friday night after their private jet crashed in the woods as they left
Augusta, Maine.

Jeanette Symons, to whom the plane was registered, was believed to be
piloting the craft with her 10-year-old son as the passenger, according to
Maine Public Safety Department spokesman Stephen McCausland.

Symons, 45, co-founded and was chief executive officer of Industrious Kid,
an Oakland-based company that creates online products for children with
age-appropriate content. She regularly commuted by plane between her home in
Steamboat Springs, Colo., and the Bay Area.

"She's been flying for over 20 years. She's a top-notch pilot," said Tim
Donovan, the company's vice president of marketing. Donovan said Symons' son
had been attending a weeklong ski camp.

Symons leaves a 7-year-old daughter and is survived by her parents and two
brothers, Donovan said.

Before founding Industrious Kid, Symons co-founded Zhone Technologies and
worked at Ascend Communications. In 2001, she was listed as one of the
wealthiest people in the country under the age of 40. At the time, she was
39.

Symons is also the creator of the Web site imbee.com, which she created to
help children network with friends online while avoiding some of the dangers
of the Internet.

After the plane took off at 5:45 p.m., bound for Lincoln, Neb., an air
traffic controller in Portland was talking to the pilot by radio and
tracking the aircraft on radar, Federal Aviation Administration officials
said.

When the plane was at about 3,000 feet, the pilot declared an emergency,
saying there was a problem with the plane's attitude indicator. The
controller attempted to guide the pilot back to the Augusta airport but lost
radio contact and saw the plane descend rapidly on radar.

Police said a debris field about 300 yards long was found at the scene of
the wreck.

John Guimond, manager of the Augusta State Airport, said the plane was a
Cessna Citation and that it crashed roughly 10 miles from the airport.

McCausland said the Maine Department of Public Safety was first notified
about the downed aircraft when the FAA contacted them.

Representatives from the FAA were expected to head to West Gardiner to begin
an investigation.

The airport is owned by the state of Maine but managed and operated by the
city of Augusta.

Freezing rain was falling in Augusta at the time of the crash, according to
the National Weather Service.

Follow up report........

Pilot in deadly crash did not de-ice plane
By Tom McGhee
The Denver Post
Article Last Updated: 02/04/2008 01:39:49 AM MST

Jeanette Symons, 45, was an Internet entrepreneur who moved to Steamboat
Springs from San Francisco in 2006.
An Internet entrepreneur from Steamboat Springs didn't have the ice removed
from her plane before she left on the fatal flight that killed her and her
10-year-old son, airport officials said.

Jeanette Symons, 45, a telecommunications pioneer and co-founder of
Industrious Kid, which creates online products for children, was piloting
her Cessna Citation jet when it crashed Friday after takeoff from Augusta
State Airport in Maine.

Symons was returning to Steamboat after spending a week at a ski camp on
Sugar Loaf Mountain with her son.

Symons took off during a storm that coated the ground, vehicles and trees
with a granular layer of ice, said William Perry, owner of Maine Instrument
Flight, which operates facilities at the airport.

"It was a spooky night; it was not easy to navigate," he said Sunday.

With the storm looming Friday morning, Symons called the airport and asked
that her plane be parked in the hangar, Perry said.

The company put the plane in the hangar but had to remove it later to
shelter a regional jet owned by Colgen, the airline that serves the airport.

About 5:30 p.m., Symons drove her rental car to the plane, stowed her gear
and looked over the aircraft, Perry said.

"Our guys were assuming she was going to have to be de-iced. She came in and
said, 'I'm all set.' Our guy said, 'Are you sure?" and she said, 'No, I'm
all set,'" Perry said. "She may have looked the plane over and said there's
not much ice. All I can tell you is there was ice all over everything."

Symons, who didn't appear to be inebriated or otherwise incapacitated, then
did something that further surprised Perry's employees.

Instead of heading west on a taxiway to the runway, she cut across a field
and drove the plane through a ditch, blasting her engines to get through the
depression, said Perry, who heard the story from his workers.

She then followed a meandering route to the runway.

"She got almost to the runway, and our guys turned the field lights on. She
should have done that herself at that point. I think she just got confused;
it was a strange airport, and she was trying to feel her way around," Perry
said.

A layer of ice can bring an aircraft down, said Peter Knudson, a spokesman
for the National Transportation Safety Board. "It reduces the lift, and it
can lead to a stall."

The NTSB is investigating the accident, but it could be a year before
results are known.

Symons moved from San Francisco to Steamboat Springs about 18 months ago.
The San Francisco Chronicle said the move was an effort to give her two
children recreational opportunities not available in the city. She regularly
commuted to the Bay Area by plane.

Symons is survived by her 7-year-old daughter, Jennie.

Duck Rogers

4th Feb 2008, 23:40

Keep up.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=311639

Perwazee

5th Feb 2008, 02:08

A very good comment!

I see and hear more and more in this industry that pilots who are 'paid' tend to think they are better pilots [professionals] than those who fly for themselves.

I have flown with so-called professionals who can't even tell which of the 'de-icing' fluids is warm and which isn't. Look at all the airline accidents due to pilot error...they were all professionals too!

sevenstrokeroll

5th Feb 2008, 02:19

failed attitude indicator:

I would think that this plane had at least two attitude indicators. One in front of the pilot, one in front of the copilot's seat and perhaps a third standby instrument.

I can even imagine a possible installation of EFIS type instruments in front of the pilot.

BUT, conflicting information can be a real brain challenge...which one or two are correct? And then, having the courage to use the proper one and ignore the other? Covering the bad instrument with a piece of paper would be one of the first things I would do (piece of paper, spit on it and slop it on the bad one).

My feeling is that confusion was in the mind of the pilot. Perhaps confusion from more than one source. Perhaps an over dependence on auto pilot and lack of familiarity with unusual attitude recovery. Perhaps pitot tube was iced over giving eroneous air speed information?

To get to 3000' would indicate to me that the wings were ok for takeoff and climbout. (in terms of ice)

Vertigo, illusions, etc. may play a part. The bit about taxi route concerns me quite a bit. Confusion, subtle incapacitation can be deadly.

robbreid

5th Feb 2008, 02:31

I recall the Aero Peru B757 that took off with tape over the static ports, out over open ocean at night. Spatial Disorientation. News reports state N102PT was ascending to 10000, levelled off at 3000 reporting loss of Attitude Indicator. Aircraft flew a distance of 9 miles from the airport, ATC reported a rapid decent. Aircraft burned for some time after the accident.http://kennebecjournal.mainetoday.com/news/local/4723379.html News Story http://myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00892223 Photo N102PT

NinerVictor

5th Feb 2008, 02:51

Isn't the Citation a two-crew aircraft? What was the other pilot doing all that time?

Huck

5th Feb 2008, 02:54

Isn't the Citation a two-crew aircraft?

Nope. Single pilot capable.

sevenstrokeroll

5th Feb 2008, 02:55

the citation can be flown SP, or single pilot. if properly equipped and pilot is certified...and it seems that this pilot was.

I hope this forum follows this story. I hope someone starts a thread on the king air crash in north carolina too.

owner operated high performance aircraft.

sevenstrokeroll

5th Feb 2008, 02:59

Cessna Citation CJ1
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Cessna 525 CitationJet

The Cessna Citation CJ1 (Model 525) is the first and smallest of the CJ series of Cessna aircraft. It was developed as an improved version of the original Cessna CitationJet (also Model 525). It borrows much of the forward fuselage from the Cessna Citation I (Model 500).[1] The CJ1 improved on the CitationJet by adding the Collins Pro Line 21 EFIS avionics suite and a moderate increase in maximum takeoff. The CJ1 has a newer cousin, the CJ1+ which shares the same airframe but has an additional updated avionics package and FADEC, to allow the engines to be controlled by computer rather than mechanical controls.

[edit] Specifications for CJ1+
Data from http://cj1plus.cessna.com/specifications.chtml
General characteristics

* Crew: 1
* Capacity: 5 passengers
* Payload: 615 lb (279 kg)
* Length: 42 ft 7 in (12.98 m)
* Wingspan: 46 ft 11 in (14.30 m)
* Height: (4.19 m)
* Empty weight: 6,765 lb (3,069 kg)
* Useful load: 3,835 lb (1,740 kg)
* Max takeoff weight: 10,700 lb (4,853 kg)
* Powerplant: 2¥ Williams FJ44-1AP turbofan, 1,965 lb (8.74 kN) each

Performance

* Cruise speed: 389 ktas (720 km/h)
* Stall speed: 83 kcas (153 km/h)
* Range: 1,300 nm (2,408 km)
* Service ceiling 41,000 ft (12,497 m)
* Rate of climb: 3,290 fpm (1,003 m/min)

vapilot2004

5th Feb 2008, 06:11

Ms. Symons should have been convinced to go for deicing by a truly conscientious ramper. Not blaming the ground people for this though. I was one myself thirty odd years ago.

The fact that her son was with her rules out suicide, doesn't it? :confused:

bman0429

5th Feb 2008, 06:27

Should that read loss of Altitude indicator? Pitiot static has zero affect on Attitude Indicator.

Semaphore Sam

5th Feb 2008, 07:45

First: if she got to 3000', de-icing wasn't a factor. She could easily have made altitude from 3000', in a jet, with a load of ice, unless some OTHER factor took effect (such as a malfunctioning ADI). Let's rid ourselves of Red Herrings, such as anti-female bias, anti-single pilot bias, etc.

sevenstrokeroll

5th Feb 2008, 09:35

bman0429

the pitot doesn't work the attitude indicator...but as most pilots know, the airspeed, if not consistant with the attitude indicator (artificial horizon) may cause a pilot to become confused and distrustful of an instrument.

aeronautical history is full of accidents like the above scenario...I recall a 727 and someone else has recalled the 757 crash.

and wouldn't we use the term: ALTIMETER and not altitude indicator?

The first question I have for the NTSB is: what position was the pitot heater switch in?

Someone also mentioned bias against single pilot operations. Well, I am in favor of two pilot operations. So call me biased. As to female pilots vs. male pilots...I've seen good male pilots and good female pilots...I"ve also seen rotten female pilots and rotten male pilots...

I've even seen what happens to an airspeed indicator that is being fed by an iced over pitot tube. And had to explain to the other pilot what was wrong.

bman0429

5th Feb 2008, 10:11

sevenstrokeroll

the pitot doesn't work the attitude indicator.Agreed on the first point. The previous post refered to a blocked pitot static system affecting the attitude indicator.
..but as most pilots know, the airspeed, if not consistant with the attitude indicator (artificial horizon) may cause a pilot to become confused and distrustful of an instrument.That maybe true, but are we not trained to recognize which instrument is giving us bad information?

aeronautical history is full of accidents like the above scenario...I recall a 727 and someone else has recalled the 757 crashAgain I agree, but most of them were completely preventable by crew action. which is why we view these case studies and train accordingly

and wouldn't we use the term: ALTIMETER and not altitude indicator
for the record I was refering to the previous post as maybe making a small typo "attitude indicator" as it appeared he was referencing an , ahem Altimeter. Potato/Potatoe

As for the accident it was a horrible thing that someone who obviously enjoyed the same feelings that we all do lost her life and that of her son doing what we all love. Some good may come from it if we try and thoroughly understand what happened and encourage those in our field who aren't in our Profession to try and maintain Professional level standards. ( Not that all do, but all should). We are constantly learning constantly training because complacancy kills!

Bman

sevenstrokeroll

5th Feb 2008, 10:23

bman

I couldn't find the previous post to which you refer...call it cyberspacewarp.

and yes, we are trained to spot such problems...but we are also trained to avoid taxiing into ditches prior to takeoff.

training is great, but that doesn't mean people don't make mistakes.

now, if all three attitude instruments were wrong...we have something...but if two out of three agree, you have to analyze and make a decision...and if you have time to radio about the problem, maybe you didn't use all your brain on the problem...

now don't get me wrong...this is a tragedy. but I've seen how silicon valley types become pilots and it concerns me greatly. I taught flying in the 80's in silicon valley at KPAO among others.

just because you are trained in something doesn't mean you will do the right thing in flight.

and again, I couldn't find the "previous post" to which you refer...sometimes they are deleted, or I just missed it.

sevenstrokeroll

5th Feb 2008, 10:28

one more thing

I sure would have tested the pitot heat during walkaround

geewhizdriver

6th Feb 2008, 16:36

Just because she was at 3000' does not preclude icing problems. Freezing rain aloft(often with ice pellets at surface) can be catastrophic, especially to a bleed-air rubber inflatable leading edge. I flew a citation in that corner of the world for many years, and it can be full of god-awful weather and operational challenges. There is something to be said for the justification for 2 pilots on high performance aircraft!

CJ Driver

6th Feb 2008, 23:17

Before you get too enthusiastic about pitot-static failure as a contributory cause, I should point out that the CJ has a nice yellow warning light for the pitot static system. Since the CJ annunciator system philosphy is "dark is good", most departures have a completely blank annunciator panel. The standout presence of the yellow lights makes it unlikely that you would not notice that you had forgotten the pitot heat.

And for completeness, the system has a combination of current and temperature sensors which also illuminate the warning if the system fails in flight.

ssg

7th Feb 2008, 02:58

Some Points at the risk of pissing everyone off...

- Owner flown jets have the worst accident rates in the industry, and I personaly don't want to be lumped in with them when people talk about another Citation captain augering in. Simply put, you don't build a business and have time to somehow build up 10,000 hours at the same time, sorry, not doable. Simuflite has a perfect moniker for the biz owner that comes in wanting to fly his new CJ...'I have a jet, therefor I must be a jet pilot'. It's not to say that some 'pros' can't fly either, but for those biz guys in here reading this, you and I both know a few CEOs that are pilots and have made the point of hiring a pilot, simply for the reason that flying a jet is for the most part a full time thing. If your sharp, fine, but how many are, and how many have solid IFR skills that never did it for a living.

I am not here to rip on the biz owner pilots, nor a future generation of Mustang and Eclipse pilots. But if you really think your going to go fly to Aspen this weekend, blowing snow, with a thousand hours of P51 time in a C172, the only people your pulling one over on is your family, because they are coming with you to the flight's inevitable conclusion.

- Anyone in here that has actualy been in a piston single, with a couple of inches of ice, vs a light twin, vs a turboprop, vs a jet, will immediately understand that if icing took the Citation down, it wasn't the Citation's fault.

- For those that think an attitude indicator out on a jet is an Emergency Procedure item, forgot to notice the other one on the right side, the peanut gyro in the Center, and for those with EFIS, the one in the MFD as well.

IF this lady declared MAYDAY because of an attitude indicator, she was way behind the power curve and way inexperienced to be sitting in that plane. Sorry, but that's just a fact.

- And no, a Pitot tube doesn't affect the Attitude indicator.... :), the Citation has three pitot tubes, by the way...

- Let's all remember that a Citation 500 series, can be flown Single pilot either if it's certified single pilot like the CJs or the 501SPs and 550SPs....a type is all they need. To fly the Encores, Ultras, Vs, you need the Single Pilot Exemption, and none of the Exemptors have crashed a plane yet, except my friend at Cable, Ca. and he was a biz owner, and he lost his wife over it.....and I helped train him...

He chose to fly into a 3500 ft home field, full of fuel, with a 12 kt tail wind at night, and land on the last third of the runway, too fast....and instead of going around, he didn't, then tried to go around too late...

So why did he do that? Because he is a used to getting away with crap, because he's a biz owner, his ego was bigger then his experience, and he saw me land there, over and over and over, and make it look easy...He couldn't buy jet fuel at Cable, so he decided to tanker it from San Diego and come in heavy to a short field, hot, landing long and not knowing when to go around.

He didn't have the experience to know what he could do or not do, what he could get away with, what the limits were, what was too much or too little, ect ect...

One learns that through experience, and herin lies the problem in people buying thier way into a jet, vs earning it...It's no different then giving your kid a Ferrari for his 16th birthday....

So the next time your sitting next to a guy in a plane and he's sipping coffee, threading his way through thunderstorms, with the radar, making jokes, or makes that 3000 ft landing looking easy....

It isn't, he just has the experience to make it look easy....and sorry, no matter how much money you got, you can't buy the experience, you can't train enough, you can't spend enough time on your days off to fly like the pros, nor will you have the balls to fly down to zero zero to try it out...he has to take a look, it's part of his job, you won't...so he will get the experience, experience that you can neither buy nor have the gumption to go get....

So a few hours around the patch with the local CFII for your instrument reccurrent won't buy you a ticket into the jets....

So hire a guy, you can be the 'captain' in the left seat, wiggle the controls, feel like the pilot you always wanted to be, tell your friends you 'fly your own jet' and your pilot will be there to grab the controls when the SHTF.

englishal

7th Feb 2008, 06:54

A failed AI brought down a Boeing 747 Cargo out of London Stanstead a few years ago........despite backup and despite several "professional" crew onboard.

If the wings had been iced up on take off, she'd never have got to 3000' and probably wouldn't have got off the runway in one piece.

robbreid

7th Feb 2008, 15:52

Re: Post by SSG

Very well said, thoughtful, and informative.

Thx.

Dream Land

7th Feb 2008, 17:59

Instead of heading west on a taxiway to the runway, she cut across a field
and drove the plane through a ditch, blasting her engines to get through the
depression, said Perry, who heard the story from his workers. Believe want you want about owner operators, how many professional crews would operate in this fashion? :eek:

sevenstrokeroll

8th Feb 2008, 01:09

CJdriver

thanks for telling us about the cj annuciator.

who knows, there might be a bizare situation in cj's that wouldn't show a failure?

I remember on jet I flew, you could get the annuciator light to go out but the pitot wasn't heated.

I tend to agree that owner operators are just a fancy term for doctor/bonanza pilots.

I do want to know what brought this lady and her child down. Sadly, my first feeling is pilot error. And if you have time to radio for help,crash the plane, then you didn't fly the plane first.

sevenstrokeroll

8th Feb 2008, 15:04

Let's look at the idea that the plane's anti/deice system was overwelmed by conditions...even similiar to the ATR 72 over Indiana that crashed.

If the plane was on autopilot, and assumed an unusual attitude of some sort in an effort to achieve commanded instructions (speed, climb rate or whatever)...the pilot might have thought something was wrong with the instrument, having never seen this situation before.

I understand the wing is more laminar flow than previous small citations. I couldn't find out what the anti ice system is, except for boots on the horizontal stabilizer.

can you imagine the autopilot pulling the plane into a stall, then holding it there while the thing spun in?

always in icing conditions in any plane, a hand on the stick might tell you more about how the plane is flying than anything else.

His dudeness

8th Feb 2008, 15:17

...with the temperate monitoring of the probes...

FlightSafety says that the current is monitored. They don´t mention temperature. At least not in the CJ1 manual...

The walkaround wants you to switch pitot/static heat on and feel for heat - would not be necessary if temperature would actually feed into the system.

Wing has bleedair antiiced leading edges. Tail boots are actuated by a timer (AUTO) or manually (MANUAL switch position)
AUTO will inflate one boot for 6 seconds, allow deflation for 6 secs and inflate the other side for 6 secs, this cycle is repeated after 3 minutes.
MANUAL inflates both boots as long as held in Manual (springloaded)

21psi service bleed air is used, should less than 16 psi enter the boots, the fail light illuminates (1 for each side)
In case of electrical failure, tail deice is INOP, versus wing antiice, bleed valves fail open.

cjboy

8th Feb 2008, 17:25

ssg, CJ1 has 2 pitot tubes

ssg

9th Feb 2008, 05:08

The Ultra/Encores have three Pitot tubes...left / Right / and TAS

I can't speak for the CJ1 having three.

His dudeness

9th Feb 2008, 10:47

TAS? Thought thats the stby instrument pito tube.

Which is fed by the R/H pitot on the 525´s.

Main difference here: Bravo/Ultra/Encore FAR25, C525´s FAR 23.

sevenstrokeroll

10th Feb 2008, 00:43

Perhaps the lack of deicing is not so much an aerodynamic problem as a mindset problem.

The ditch is another mindset problem.

And the runway light issue.

this person needed to get out of Maine...why? we will never really know.

But the mindset of this person was not the mindset of a pilot for any plane, let alone a nice little , well equipped jet.

While it is unlikely we will ever know, I wonder if this person was on any form of anti depressent medication or the like?

E.Z. Flyer

10th Feb 2008, 03:42

I agree mindset is a valued question. However, there was also interaction with those on the ground in regard to however many details or presumed detail of service there would be provided, or an understanding of such service. I had seen the plane days before parked outside next to a hangar and it was at least away from the wind or the likely direction of any storm coming in. I had come in to Logan and our pilot announced that there was a likely chance of rain showers and I expected perhaps icing coming back in the B1900 from Logan to Augusta as a possibility.

I don't know absolutely, but, I do not believe the CJ1 was covered. Engine caps, pitot covers etc. The plane was to be put in the B1900’s hangar and was the day it was scheduled for departure. Because, it was sharing the B1900 space when the B1900 came in, the CJ was placed outside. For the sake of argument and nothing else factual to bear, let's assume the pilot expected to drive up to the plane in the hangar in order to transfer luggage and make ready for departure. The ground crew countered and expected the plane would be de-iced, following the same procedure in place when the B1900 is prepped in the morning. I'm not stating fact just a case of cause and effect.

In following such a train of thought, because the operator of the B1900 had cancelled all other scheduled flights for the day that the cancellations were because the flight criteria was not met. So no matter what flight service there is that can be performed it still can't satisfy flight criteria.

I think what saddens me most is that in Maine, there are ways of life and I know the people at Augusta for them the airport is that way of life. They know the skies, they knew there's that downspout out there that's always there and even though it wasn't stated as such, they knew from all the years it was your own call and judgment to leave, but we're all also here to help. If it's freezing rain out, you'll never make it... I can't say it right, but like any airport there is always the crew, the few that have dedicated their own lives, to making the airport the place it is and that is what has prompted me to write this opinion. In my own words I would have said, "Mam, you're #2 behind the B1900, plan on a 10:30 departure. We're all tired; it’s been a long day I’m going home, and there is a storm"

It's just how it is here or else where. My own instructor, "push pull Paul," had his own way of teaching flight and that's just how it is. It's a learning process. So when you hear a Mainer say, "you can't get there from here" it is much more profound than you're likely to imagine at first. It is a lesson that is tried and trued, and if you want to get to where you're going, you just might have to follow someone that has already been there.

What leaves me dead in my own tracks is having read what news reports there are about this incident. There are too many points of concern for one to have ever continued to proceed to ever take-off. In the simplest way, I doubt if the field had a control tower, that any controller would have ever cleared the CJ1 for take-off. For one thing I would assume in the FAR there is a thing or two about taxing off the taxiway and into a ditch before take-off. I would bet hands down there is also paper work involved.

There were statements or other concerns that if true would mean the pre-flight check was not satisfied. Failure to de-ice (http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses_ground.html) (under ideal icing conditions: -Temp.~Dew point+Wind)being of primary concern and the reason such pre-flight conditions was not satisfied. I would challenge the flight plan for departure as well. Departing on 35/17, and not 17 as reported (winds are 12 kts. NNE) I would line up for the Waterville airport just 19 miles away, due north. Fly to the outer marker(s), and then return to Augusta at altitude, and have Boston center up on the com with Portland approach. Or, continue north towards BGR (http://skyvector.com/#32-7-3-5233-3438) in order to avoid the rain/snow line.

I doubt Portland approach is going to give me clearance over 10,000 and this is one of those times it would be nice to be up and out of it... In this way at least there are three routes to return to an airport if for any reason there are in flight problems.

The runway is not plowed (Unreliable). It is sloshed out if I understood correctly. It had snowed and then turned to rain. However, I think I understood they wanted to allow the snow to set up because of the rain, before trying to clear it off. Why not, the weather was cats and dogs, it wouldn't be any clearer when they finished by 7 pm, than if they waited until morning when it was clear out. So again, you're #2 after the B1900 the next day.

Now I have a few questions. Why doesn't the flight management system compute the flight envelope? If the tanks were topped off, and the runway was not plowed where is there room to roll for take off? Reportedly, the plane was seen under performing during take off.

How much ice can accumulate before causing aerodynamic failure? I've been out in an aero-commander with too much ice, so I would guess the CJ1 would take a few or more inches of ice before turning in. Again, if the tanks are topped off, and there is freezing rain, then weight is at critical mass. But still something is wrong. The failure is too sudden. [ departure is 17 and not 35] A 35 departure based on initial report of flight time w/b Lift off, climb out (pattern 1400’) left (upwind) base out, left downwind, then with in 12 miles failure. A 17 departure as officially reported (http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20080211X00172&key=1) now suggest immediate and pending systems failure.

What damage could have been caused when the plane became stuck in what was described as a ditch that you wouldn't want to drive your jeep through? How much pressure can the tires take? If there was an abrupt stop could that have caused malfunction to any of the instruments? Could the nose cone be damaged? What part of the warning system would alert the pilot to any structural failure if such damage occurred?

Bleed Air -- Engine and Tailcone Bleed Air Leaks (http://www.cessnacitationforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2182)

bleed air heat damage (http://www.cessnacitationforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1621)

NTSB recomendations (http://www.cessnacitationforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1281)

sevenstrokeroll

10th Feb 2008, 11:37

EZ

I've flown in Maine quite a bit...but farther south...to the famed "jetport" never to augusta' s airport in question. Lived in Boston for quite awhile.

A tower would certainly have asked about going into the ditch/and perhaps made the pilot reconsider.

I haven't read about performance problems witnessed during takeoff...interesting.

I understand a preliminary report will be issued in a couple of days.

sevenstrokeroll

10th Feb 2008, 23:30

wondering what kind of gyro

are they laser ring gyros, or the good old fashioned spinning gyros? ITs efis so I think the former but am not sure.

that point about bumping into the ditch possibly damaging some instruments is a valid one

robbreid

12th Feb 2008, 12:44

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20080211X00172&key=1 (http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20080211X00172&key=1)

sevenstrokeroll

12th Feb 2008, 19:23

after reading this report I believe that there was confusion in the mind of the pilot...even before takeoff.

illness? medications? emotional stress? whatever.

a modern jet with three gyros would rarely if ever lose all the gyros simultaneously. it is the pilot's responsibility to interpret all information including heading change to understand what the horizion/gyro is telling you.

vertigo? trust your instruments?

when in doubt, and I say this with some reservation, if the plane was trimmed up properly, the engines are running...let go for a few seconds...it might just fly better without your input.

key word: MIGHT

ssg

13th Feb 2008, 01:33

Hard IFR flying separates the pilots from the tourists in many ways, simply because to actualy sit in the soup and be comfortable with it, requires years of doing it. The operative word here is 'comfortable'. Having actualy done it for some time.

Here in Oregon, I know of many corporate flight depts, where the boss makes the go no go, weather decision, simply because the guys they hired have about zero actual instrument experience, and they are in jets... Needless to say these flight depts fly about 150 hours per year, on nice days, and everyone is scared to fly with them...but the boss is saving money.

Going back to a Citation, where at school they teach that a pilot should use the auto pilot vs a nice thing to have.

I remember guys in the old days that flew new 210s ect, and couldn't wait to get a new auto pilot installed as that was how they could fly via instruments, let the plane do the work.

I go back to pre - EFIS, pre GPS, pre FMS, Pre-Flight Director, Pre - HSI, and flying by hand was just how it was done....sounds archaic now...but when all the those goodies came along, most of us flying in the soup honestly questioned why someone would need to drop $5k on an HSI, when vor needles worked just great.

I have seen flight depts scrub flights because the pilot couldn't work the Direct To function on the FMS. I know another flight dept, that put the plane down for three months upgrading from a GNSXL to UNS1, because the pilot thought the GNSXL was 'unsafe' and didn't do coupled approaches.

The point: It's a tragedy, when someone crashes a perfectly good aircraft, especialy a jet, but really tragic when that someone takes out someone that was counting on them for getting them from point a to b.

The fact of the matter is, good solid instrument skills have taking a backdoor 'managing the FMS, managing systems' which is another word for 'we teach you how to use the autopilot, so you don't have to learn to fly by hand'

Get ready for a rash of incidents involving owner flown VLJs, simply because they will be relying on thier equipment vs thier skills to get them there safely.

sevenstrokeroll

13th Feb 2008, 02:04

ssg:

sounds like we think alike. I worked for one place that demanded I fly an NDB approach using the compass and turn/slip...no DG...no Horizon.

(that was for the checkride)

I recall one designated examiner who didn't want to give an instrument rating ride to someone in a mooney...those mooneys always had the "wing leveler" on unless you pressed a button. the examiner thought that was cheating...so do I for that matter. But the FAA said the plane was certified that way and he had to do the checkride..

As I mentioned before, I used to teach in silicon valley. too many people wanted the short cut way of learning to fly...use the gadgets and not your brain.

There is talk that this woman was a "seasoned pilot"...I don't see it. She had a pvt pilot single and multi instrument and types for the citation. Her friends said she treated the plane like others treat a car. Cars don't fly.

BFD.

I'm truly sorry for the loss of any person. But if you want to be a good, safe pilot, it takes time. And it takes wisdom to enforce limits to provide extra protection...especially to innocents in the plane and on the ground. Bad wx and night flying...maybe not. At least wait till daylight...you have a clue if you are upside down or not.

SSG, I think we think in a similiar fashion. Happy landings to you sir.

MungoP

13th Feb 2008, 11:46

This lady seems to have departed the a/p in a fashion that suggests someone had broadcast "Incoming" over the PA system... one has to wonder if the check-list was completed in the same cavalier fashion and whether the full systems anti-ice was selected on.

deice

13th Feb 2008, 13:37

Interesting discussion you have going. I got my IR in 1999/2000 and did it all with the basic stuff, no HSI, no autopilot no gps - nothing. Flew through ice and sleet in turbulence and total IMC. We did most training that way and by the time I was done I felt at ease with IMC, minimums and tuning everything the right way. Years after I still prefer tuning the radios to setting up the "FMS" of the G1000. Ok, so I fly simple planes by comparison, but flying the needles is my way out when I mess up with the GPS.

I think it's all in the training. If you train people to fly on FMS, GPS, coupled etc what chance will they have of doing an NDB on compass and T/B? What scares me the most is there are students fresh out of IR training that do their very first actual IMC on their checkride or even after that. They have zero experience of the soup which, I think you agree, is very different to being strapped into a sim in an airconditioned hangar. What kind of pilots are they putting out these days?

sevenstrokeroll

13th Feb 2008, 15:15

Deice:

I appreciate your post. I got my IR about 20 years before you did.

Basic stuff. Then the big thing was VOR based RNAV systems. I got sharp with that and look where that stuff ended up...right next to an IBM 386 computer.

I am not impressed with the new crop of pilots. And not really impressed with the new kind of planes.

happy landings to you in sweden!

Flintstone

13th Feb 2008, 17:09

Unzips trousers.........joins in willy wave fest

pilotbear

13th Feb 2008, 18:11

as usual flinty you have the most relevant reply:ok:

sevenstrokeroll

13th Feb 2008, 19:47

would you care to clarify? this is not a man/woman thing...it is a pilot thing.

Flintstone

13th Feb 2008, 21:02

Willy waving.

The art of seeking to top or outdo, outbrag or better each other. Example, "I got my (insert object/qualification/good/chattel here) before you did/quicker than you did/cheaper than you did".

In short, my dad's bigger than your dad ;)

Given that we don't know what caused this unfortunate incident and its tragic conclusion I would have thought that the members of this forum might have refrained some of the comments posted thus far. "Perhaps....perhaps....perhaps..." and "This is pilot error" closely followed by "or possibly there was just something wrong with the aircraft" do their authors no credit.

The ease and rapidity with which the pilot has been condemned for being just a private pilot disappoints me. I can only hope that her family and friends have not found this thread.

deice

13th Feb 2008, 21:24

Point taken - but I'm not trying to brag - I'm too much of an amateur for that but just want to point towards a training issue. There are enough schools out there that don't take their students into real IMC and I feel there's a problem. Based on my own experience during training and subsequent flights sitting in real IMC with minimums below really sharpens your senses - it's for real. I wouldn't want to be afraid of killing myself because I couldn't handle an NDB in actual IMC. I have friends that did their entire IR in a sim, save a few hours in VMC with foggles. First time they hit real IMC they were in for a surprise and it's not like they're comfortable with it.

But maybe that's bragging - ok, then I'll wave my willy...

Flintstone

13th Feb 2008, 21:53

ok, then I'll wave my willy...

Now you're getting the hang of it :O

sevenstrokeroll

13th Feb 2008, 23:26

what is really bad about flying is that many people just try to seperate you from your money and not remind you that FLYING A PLANE IS DIFFICULT.

I've seen too many aircraft sales people try to make a sale rather than worry about the buyer killing themselves in a plane that is a bit too much.

willy waving? hardly. so far, I see that three people who actually have been in bad wx during their flight training were discussing the shortcomings of simply flying "under the hood".

suhoi27

14th Feb 2008, 03:44

we are going into deep waters,but the whole today's flight trainng's system is tunned that way-to give false self-confidence to people who are not ready to pay the price by at least giving some comon sense into the right direction-attitude..

MungoP

14th Feb 2008, 12:04

Let's not get carried away...it's the salsmans job to sell a/c.. it's the buyers responsibility to ensure that he/she gets adequate initial and recurrent training. From day one of our ppl flight training it's emphasised that we are to a large extent our own policeman... adhering to minima, operating within the paramaters laid down by the a/c manufacturer...etc etc.

By all accounts the pilot of the CJ1 had considerable experience of the aircraft... maybe the difference between her and professional crew is in the attitude to flying. For the professional, flying is THE primary factor in daily life... keeping it safe and giving attention and time to details is what helps keep it safe. A succesful business man or woman is using the a/c as a secondary factor to operating their business and it's possible that the priorities are less focused on the a/c operation... The term ' using the a/c as though it were a car ' sounds great, but it's easy under those circumstances for familiarity to breed contempt...

It's not impossible for this aspect to be present in the professional either... when flying with relatively inexperienced F/Os who think that because I have a bunch of hours everything will be fine I sometimes have to remind them that complacency is a killer and it's a good idea to take a couple of steps back now and again...

ssg

15th Feb 2008, 01:13

Flinty,

If your looking for a mutual back slapping session, where 'all of us are in this together', ....you know, a nice social gathering of pilots...Alaska is hiring, that's what they are looking for. Now let's get back to why some people can't fly with two gyros, when they had three to start off with...

I think, given the technology presented with in the last 20 years., it's simply a fact that pilots like Seven and myself are ones that remember when flying a plane 'raw data' was not an emergency procedure. That when one of three gyros on the plane crap out, it's not a 'Mayday' call.

It's just a fact. Personaly I know that when it comes to 'willy waiving'...someone else will always have more types, flying a bigger plane, have a bigger paycheck...and always more hours in this and that type.

Personaly I have always felt that that the gold standard for a pilot is to point to the C172 on the ramp, with old Narco 'coffee grinders' and just tell the guy if he can get over the moutains and back..in the winter, with icing....then he's got the job. I can teach him how an FMS works after that..or tapes, or the DME, ect....

Anyone can pay for a type, or learn read the book on the FMS...but can you fly without all the goodies?

It's not willy waiving...it's just a simple question...can you do it?

E.Z. Flyer

16th Feb 2008, 08:00

WEST GARDINER — The Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (http://www.aopa.org/)will donate $2,500 to the West Gardiner Fire Department to help cover the costs to replace the department's emergency turn-out gear, much of which was permanently damaged by jet fuel while searching for victims in the Feb. 1 plane crash.

Jeanette Symons, 45, who died in the crash and was the jet's pilot, was a AOPA member, spokesman Chris Dancy said.

“Every pilot knows his or her life may well be in first responders’ hands if the worst happens,” said AOPA President Phil Boyer in a prepared statement.

“We truly appreciate the diligence of the West Gardiner volunteer firefighters and the respect they showed the pilot and her son, and we want to make sure they have the equipment they need the next time they have to roll out."

Flintstone

16th Feb 2008, 11:10

it's just a simple question...can you do it?

I seem to have managed so far thanks. If I ever felt the need (unlikely) to crow about how long I'd held my IR and how bad other pilots were compared to me perhaps I'd start a separate thread. I certainly wouldn't hijack one that reports the death of a pilot, in so far unknown circumstances, to do it.

it's simply a fact that pilots like Seven and myself are ones that remember when flying a plane 'raw data' was not an emergency procedure.

Me too, so what? See above.

If your looking for a mutual back slapping session

Comfortable as I am with my own sexuality I think I'll pass on that one if it's all the same to you ;)

sevenstrokeroll

17th Feb 2008, 21:10

I'd like some whole wheat toast.

What we have here is a failure to communicate. The internet is subject to such problems.

No one is trying to hijack a thread that started because of the death of two human beings.

We are not bragging about our flying credentials or flying time. All the news articles suggest that the citation pilot was 'seasoned'. In this humble forum, we are just trying to tell you where we are coming from.

I think my point and the point of SSG is this: Gadgets don't make pilots. Pilots that depend on gadgets too much are likely to get let down.

There is alot to being a pilot. Shortcuts always seem to catch up with people one day or another.

PILOTS must respect the dangers of the sky and plan an "out" whenever they fly.

as an aside:

I was driving a rental car. brand new. The radio went out (quit, broke, whatever you call it). It took out the clock, the CD player and there wasn't a good reason apparent. I did some trouble shooting and found a glitch which didn't burn out the fuse and in the modern way of doing things, a reset was done and it started working. frozen electrons...digital stuff is like that.

the clock was seperate from the radio in older cars.

back to planes:

So too with modern planes. EFIS, put the gyro on the display...but if the EFIS goes down you lose more than one thing. Having seperate instruments was a concept that shouldn't have been thrown away so quickly.

IF your heading indicator is changing and the horizon shows level, something is wrong. Check the whiskey compass, check the other horizons. Be a pilot.

Become too dependent on the gadgets and you are asking for trouble.

PPRuNe Towers

18th Feb 2008, 01:58

BS ssg your entire posting history on this site consists of you telling anyone stupid enough to read one of your posts just how good you are. Thats you. You alone. Single crew. Did I mention alone?

From Munson through to Maine - the echo resounds. Too many people listened to folks like you over the last 30 years of single pilot jet ops. Doesn't matter how professional you are - it's absolutely immaterial because people take something else entirely from your words.

Anyone can click on your post above to check you out. Don't take my word for it people - get stuck in and read those posts from the first time our chum appeared on the site.

Rob

galaxy flyer

18th Feb 2008, 07:07

Anyone who takes a 172 out in mountains, in icing is a fool and, if surviving, now works for an idiot.

GF

And I cut my teeth flying checks in a old Baron

Now I have reviewed page 3, waves willy mightily

sevenstrokeroll

19th Feb 2008, 00:40

Willy Waving...I'd never heard of that before this thread.

Speaking about our experiences in flying is now verbotten? HA!

Let's just get back to the concepts involved in preventing crashes.

Confusion.

Instrument interpretation.

Pilot Training.

Emergency Procedures.

sevenstrokeroll

19th Feb 2008, 21:40

galaxy flyer

how about cherokee arrow flying IMC mountains at night (with bank checks of course)? Icing and the controllers on strike? Granted its not a 172.

I wouldn't call that foolish so much as " a great seasoning process".

Lindy had ice on his wings carrying the mail and over the atlantic.

Flintstone

19th Feb 2008, 23:03

Lindy had ice on his wings carrying the mail and over the atlantic.

And ice on wings has been kiling people ever since. Just because it happened in the old days doesn't mean that anyone who didn't have to experience it is any less of a pilot. I know that a stall at low level will possibly kill me but I don't need to have it proven.

sevenstrokeroll

20th Feb 2008, 00:10

so flintstone...why did the citation crash? your best guess please.

Flintstone

20th Feb 2008, 00:22

In the absence of first hand information (as opposed to a newspaper 'quote' of ground crew saying the aircraft seemed to have trouble gaining altitude:rolleyes:) I'd rather wait for a report from those who do have access to the appropriate data and evidence. If we relied upon what's been posted here for a conclusion we would struggle to agree on how many pitots the aircraft had let alone reach any meaningful conclusion.

Frankly I'm surprised that any aviation professional would ask for a "guess" let alone postulate in a public forum what may or may not have happened.

sevenstrokeroll

20th Feb 2008, 01:29

flintstone

perhaps you didn't read the NTSB prelim report. Plane made it to 3000'msl...emergency, problems with attitude gyro etc.

I can't see how a pilot, reading about this accident COULDN'T come up with some thoughts on this subject.

AS a pilot, one must always consider what could go wrong, to avoid it. Or get out of the situation.

Or perhaps you don't think that way?

For example, if you were night IMC and thought the gyros went bad, what would you do?

I'll be glad to answer if you do. In fact, I'll go ahead and post what I might have done.

Initial shock, disbelief...I try to fly "in trim" at all times, so I would let go of the controls for a second, as I might make things worse by "doing something''. I would cross check all instruments to gain a direct and an indirect sense of the plane's attitude/bank angle etc.

if the heading wasn't changing, I would think the wings were level or near level. I would cross check attitude gyros to see which were close to level.

I would also continue to climb, declaring an emergency to continue climbing (see AIM) until above clouds, in the clear...then I would sort things out a bit further, covering up the bad gyro/display. I wouldn't change engine thrust, and I would verify the pitot heat was on...I might also check the air speed with radar ground speed (atc).

what would you do flintstone?

Flintstone

20th Feb 2008, 09:26

Errr, thanks for the flying lesson. Yes, I saw the report but that's preliminary.

I'd do what I did when my (single) gyro failed back in the old days on the Cessna 210 on take-off, at night, in the middle of the wet season with no autopilot, weather radar or GPS (damn, I promised my self I wasn't going to get dragged in to telling war stories). I'd revert to the standby instruments. Today? I'd do the same with the luxury of some extras.

Why the interest in my decision? I've already made it clear that I've no interest in discussing this pilots demise until the jury is in.

PicMas

20th Feb 2008, 10:10

SSR:

What would you do if:
An NTSB report is issued, giving a totally different surprising conclusion nobody has guessed yet...

Flintstone

20th Feb 2008, 10:39

Nice to see someone else on the same wavelength. You know, the one that waits for all the facts?

A very wise man once told me "Son, the most dangerous thing in aviation is an untested assumption". So far it's worked for me.

sevenstrokeroll

20th Feb 2008, 11:24

picmas

if the ntsb comes up with something off the wall, I'd learn from it, wouldn't you?

but the ntsb has come up with at least one report that I will always disagree with. (aa at jfk, airbus 300 rudder)

untested assumptions flintstone? whenever I hear of a single private pilot, in instrument conditions, at night, in a twin engine plane of any sort... you look at so many well healed people who treat their plane like a car...well it adds up to one conclusion. but you want to wait for the report...see you back in about a year.

now don't get me wrong. I'm not pointing fingers at a tragic figure. I'm pointing fingers at an aviation system that doesn't demand higher training standards. and especially higher standards for single pilot jets. with a flock of very light jets coming, aren't you concerned about safety?

Flintstone

20th Feb 2008, 12:19

but you want to wait for the report...see you back in about a year.

Suits me.

.

galaxy flyer

21st Feb 2008, 09:26

SSR

Flying checks in an Arrow? Not seasoning, bloody suicide, more like it. I thought it risky in a Baron with boots. Unless the mountains are in IL. And just surviving and saying Lindy did it, doesn't make your actions right or smart. Those forebears that were lost proving how not to fly airplanes would consider it a real insult, if we learned nothing from their sacrifice. "Good seasoning" is a way of justifying stupidity OR justifying dirt pay for inexperienced pilots.

GF

I'll wait for the report but don't expect anything other than some brand of pilot inexperience, incompetence and haste.

sevenstrokeroll

21st Feb 2008, 23:12

GF

the mountains weren't in Illinois. There aren't any mountains in illinois...

try california.

and icing pireps weren't available, and our POI said, no reports, no icing until YOU report it.

but that was many moon ago. and yes, it was dirt pay and since it was during the ATC strike, it was one of the few pilot jobs around. it wasn't like now a days, with 600 hours you get to be a jet copilot now. Then , you needed an ATP to get a dirty ****ty flying job.

Flintstone

22nd Feb 2008, 09:08

sob story

"Eeeeeeeeeee........eeeeeeeeeeee..........eeeeeeeeee........e eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..............."http://www.msnemotions.org/massuploads/emoticon/988-violin.gif

;)

sevenstrokeroll

22nd Feb 2008, 10:49

I can't respond to something that I don't understand

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ?

maybe its a British thing.

if you meant sleeping, we use: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz in the country that invented the airplane.

and to GF

its amazing how outdated rules (physical possesion of bank checks) gave us jobs flying. And how electronic methods have thrown that branch of flying out.

Flintstone

22nd Feb 2008, 11:04

:rolleyes:

Try this then http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

Psst! I think Otto Lilienthal might have something to say about your claim to have invented the aeroplane.;)

sevenstrokeroll

22nd Feb 2008, 11:28

flintstone

sorry, I don't do youtube...technical problems.

otto...yes the wright's learned from him, but puhleeze.

Flintstone

22nd Feb 2008, 11:40

"Puhleeze" what? Puhleeze don't remind you that the Wrights weren't first? Ok, I won't. I'll just sit here and not mention that someone other than an American flew first. My lips are sealed. I won't mention Lilienthal's flights at all. No. Not me. I won't write anything about the Wrights being some way behind him if it embarrasses you. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Shhhh, not a thing.

Wasn't there a German who achieved the first take-off under power without a ramp? Ooops, sorry. I shouldn't have said that should I? I'll just sit over here all quiet like and say nuffin. Not even about Ott.................., ooops. Nearly did it again. Best I go find something else to do before I upset someone's sensibilities.

http://www.pistonheads.com/inc/images/getmecoat.gif

sevenstrokeroll

22nd Feb 2008, 13:48

flight and controlled flight are different things

which gets us back to the thread, right?

Flintstone

22nd Feb 2008, 14:36

So you're saying gliders aren't controlled?

Someone better tell all the glider pilots quickly, before they crash.

kwachon

22nd Feb 2008, 15:02

Sevenstrokeroll probably has the luxury of pausing his simulator!.

As someone who knew this pilot, is himself a FAA designated pilot examiner and fully aware of the content and completion standards of her training at a well known company at which I was once employed, I would not even speculate as to what happened in this tragic accident. The NTSB will find the cause in the end and I suspect there will be many posters on this thread with egg on their face.

Lets just wait folks then look at how we can prevent this from happening again or otherwise.

KW :ok:

sevenstrokeroll

22nd Feb 2008, 18:15

flintstone:

controlled powered flight = airplane

uncontrolled powered flight = steps toward an airplane

controlled unpowered flight = glider or sailplane

and to you KW

IM, or send a private message if you would like to talk flying. Real Flying.

I don't have a flight simulator program. And no one is putting a negative spin on a person, so don't get huffy.

PicMas

22nd Feb 2008, 19:34

SSR:

And no one is putting a negative spin on a person, so don't get huffy.

Ok, but you posted the following which does not exactly contribute to a positive spin on things...

But the mindset of this person was not the mindset of a pilot for any plane, let alone a nice little , well equipped jet.

While it is unlikely we will ever know, I wonder if this person was on any form of anti depressent medication or the like?

There is talk that this woman was a "seasoned pilot"...I don't see it.

after reading this report I believe that there was confusion in the mind of the pilot...even before takeoff.

illness? medications? emotional stress? whatever.

a modern jet with three gyros would rarely if ever lose all the gyros simultaneously. it is the pilot's responsibility to interpret all information including heading change to understand what the horizion/gyro is telling you.

vertigo? trust your instruments?

I am not trying to pick a fight with you. But allow me to say this, you attitude (as I subjectively judge it from your postings) seems a bit arrogant.
My point being, that you are posting in a forum for businessjet pilots, holders of professional qualifications, yet you continue to lecture on how to cope with various challenges - What are you trying to prove? That you know and that your colleagues don't?!?
The lectures about trusting instruments and construction and installation of various equipment in various aircrafts are correct, but aren't you preaching to the choir??

You got me sucked into this now, and I am curious, do you mind me asking; what is your claim to fame ie. what sort of equipment do you operate and which type of operation. My first guess would be that you are an FAA CFI/II and that you are hauling said checks in a single engine. But I stand to be corrected. Again, this is not to put you down or to pick a fight...

Regards,

MAS
F/O LR60

Flintstone

22nd Feb 2008, 20:41

flintstone:

controlled powered flight = airplane

But sevenstroker you never wrote "powered". Only now have you introduced your own definition. Nowhere in aviation does 'controlled flight' imply solely powered.

What on Earth are you babbling about with:uncontrolled powered flight = steps toward an airplane

You're making it up as you go along, aren't you?

kwachon

22nd Feb 2008, 20:49

Sevenstrokeroll,

Suggest you read the message from PicMas and engage brain before opening mouth or putting words on this thread. You have no idea what the skill level is of pilots on an anonymous forum so you must accept the criticism when it is fired at you, there are always others far more experienced than you (or me for that matter and i've only been flying for 34 years including 22 years in the military) so a modicum of thought and care needs to be taken before making statements that just make folks irate with you.

As for a PM, you can forget it, I am not going to get into a pissing contest with you because I too am suspect of your level of expertise having read some of your previous posts. As someone who flies VVIP (Read Royal Flight and yes I am a Captain) worldwide I am sure I know what real flying entails.

Anyway keep posting but just quit winding folks up. You might just learn something that one day might save your own life. :ok:

sevenstrokeroll

22nd Feb 2008, 21:42

flintstone:

you talked about who invented the airplane, not powered vs controlled flight...I clarified that the wright's did it all, powered, controlled...and the others didn't.

PICMAS: if you had read my post, you would have seen I flew bank checks during the FAA controllers strike...that was 25 years ago plus...I've come a bit farther during that: atpmelcfiimei 737 captain for a major airline in the usa.

and as to understanding my posts, really think about them...when I write I assume you have a brain. indicating a mindset problem doesn't mean the person was a bad pilot, it means that day, that moment something was influencing her abilities as a a pilot. even a quick glance at the AIM reminds pilots that they should assess their abilities to fly...using the term:

i
m
s
a
f
e

read it, as a lear 60 copilot you might learn something. post what the letters mean. and if the pilot of the citation had used that, maybe she wouldn't have taken off that night.

And as a lear copilot, would you take off after taxiing through a ditch?

kwachon: so, you have been flying for 34 years? I learned in 1975, so we really are pretty close aren't we?

royal flight...then you probably haven't taught people from day one in a non military environment. you may have trained hand picked cadets, but not people with more money then sense. Well, I have. And I've convinced some wealthy pilots to be to give up rather than hurting themselves.

kwachon, you really make me laugh. which royal flight? would you have taken off after you taxied through a ditch?

this forum demands we trust each other as to quals. no way to prove you are royal flight guy, or pcimas is an f/o on a lear. you may post your quals if you like. ask me a question that someone who flys would know and someone who pretends would have to take hours to look up.

and as to preaching to the choir about instruments, there are people on this forum who are just getting their private/instrument and might learn something.

were either of you instructors?

kwachon

22nd Feb 2008, 22:16

Sevenstrokeroll,

Well I guess we all hit a nerve. Guess you are only a CFI/CFII after all.

royal flight...then you probably haven't taught people from day one in a non military environment. you may have trained hand picked cadets, but not people with more money then sense. Well, I have. And I've convinced some wealthy pilots to be to give up rather than hurting themselves.

Well I have been an instructor for 27 years including outside of the military and for one of the finest teaching establishments in the world located in the US and other parts of the world. As I said in an earlier post, an FAA ATP and Type Rating Examiner too. Two things, in 1975 I had been in the Air Force for 6 years and go to post #8 for a clue as to which company I taught for.

kwachon, you really make me laugh. which royal flight? would you have taken off after you taxied through a ditch?

Glad I make you laugh, there are many out here laughing at you too. I do not believe you are serious about this quote and expect me to divulge the name of my employer, clue......I am based and live in Saudi Arabia....and I do not make a habit of taxiing through ditches, plays hell with the gear and spills drinks in the back, but then you knew that did'nt you!.

this forum demands we trust each other as to quals. no way to prove you are royal flight guy, or pcimas is an f/o on a lear. you may post your quals if you like. ask me a question that someone who flys would know and someone who pretends would have to take hours to look up.

Once again, dissing others only makes you look like the fool you pretend not to be. As for asking questions, look in the mirror and ask yourself who you are staring at.

You really need to get real and quit firing silly rants at others, most folks are known to each other outside of this website and your posts just provide more entertaiment to the rest of us.

Have a nice day.....:ok:

sevenstrokeroll

22nd Feb 2008, 23:18

if you have been flying for 34 years, it would seem to me you learned to fly in 1974.

but now you say you were in the air force for 6 years in 1975...something doesn't add up...unless you were a zoomie.

and as for being an instructor at FSI, I'm not impressed. Hey, maybe you know the chief instructor at vero beach in 1982 or so...a guy named Dick Bozo. I turned down an instructor job with FSI after seeing how things really worked there.

Perhaps you even instructed the person involved in the crash. Maybe you gave her a type ride. Unless you tell us, we will never know. Or maybe you believe someone trained at flight safety couldn't have made a mistake.

Somehow you don't think I am more than a CFII. Fine. It is what you think. It is not the truth.

I posted my quals earlier. But you don't believe them. I couldn't tell you anything on this forum to make you believe me. I couldn't tell you how to keep your feet from dangling sitting in the jump seat of a DC9/MD80. Or where the oxygen mask is stored for the 737 jump seater. Or which airline has two jump seats in their 737's.

I couldn't tell you about the height adjustment sight on a boeing.

Or how the magnetic compass is read on a DC9/MD80. Or where the porn is stored.

Or what control wheel steering is.

It is funny though, that someone with your quals never got on with a US based airline.

Heck, maybe you even flew C141's. Which would explain alot.

I've tried to indicate on this thread that a well trained pilot who was not in a good frame of mind might make a mistake.

I've also tried to indicate how many wealthy pilots, who treat their planes like cars, might get into trouble.

I just looked in the mirror. I just got a haircut and it looks good.

Good luck in Saudi. Me, I don't like sand.

kwachon

23rd Feb 2008, 00:01

Oh dear Sevenstrokeroll,

Seems you really have your knickers in a twist now.

I said I had been in the Air Force 6 years, nothing about being a pilot at that stage....oh and it was the British Air Force, I came here 16 years ago after marrying my sweetheart, (yes an American).

You seem to know so much I bow down to your experience especially the part about where the porn is kept, must be a great airline you work for, but then again as you said you do know where the jumpseats are on so many aircraft so it must be true, I prefer to fly from the left seat.

Must be great flying from the jumpseat reading porn....glad I am not SLF on your airline.....do tell...:ok:

sevenstrokeroll

23rd Feb 2008, 00:12

dear kwachon:

you see, real airline pilots end up in the jumpseat trying to get home, and of course the PIC has to brief the jumpseaters on how to be comfortable in the jumpseat.

RAF...jolly good. it explains why you didn't get on with a large airline in America.

I was not going to post this, but what the heck. You probably deserve it.

those who can-do

those who can't - teach

those who can't teach- teach at flight safety.

And when we fly , we fly passengers, not self loading freight.

kwachon

23rd Feb 2008, 00:18

What a sad epitaph sevenstrokeroll,

Seems that what we have been saying all along about you is true.
Enjoy your flight simulator program.. B is for brakes on the keyboard or should that be B.S.

Have fun in your little world and try to be nice.

End. :yuk:

sevenstrokeroll

23rd Feb 2008, 00:22

you sure know alot about flight sims...

I wouldn't have known B was for brake.

you've proven what you fly.

ssg

23rd Feb 2008, 03:46

Hang in there Stoker...your right....

Towers...your just another single pilot hater...I see them all the time...

Telling everyone to 'wait and see' on the Maine crash is prudent, but unless a rocket hit the plane, an elevator came off, the plane cracked in two, we all know it was probably another biz owner, with dubious hours, flying a jet, with out serious experience, and again remember, she declared Mayday because her gyro was out....

I will hold out judgement, just out of respect, benefit of the doubt, but I don't see anyone crying for her son that she took with her...remember them?, the passengers? Anyone feel sorry for them?

So the next time we all get caught up in wondering whether or not you need three EFIS tubes and dual FMS to fly a plane, why don't we ask a passenger what thier standard is for a pilot....the debate ends there.

His dudeness

23rd Feb 2008, 09:04

....now then, delicate touch needed, I fancy....

1) We, the Germans invented nearly anything in flying. Aircraft, jet engines, ejector seats, RADAR, you name it. Fact, so don´t argue! In a nutshell: we are best, .... the rest. Wait a minute, that part has been stolen after the war by the `mericans... :D

2) RAF fighter jocks don´t fit american majors. Not arrogant and pompous enough they are. Or are they?

3) Single pilot jet pilots are the very best pilots. Willy is at least mighty and they ´d NEVER ever declare an emergency.

4) Exemption from 3): Owner pilots. too damn bad pilots, not interested in anything about safety.Especially when they are mothers and have their sons with them, and have apparently trained more then once on a simulator. Whilst argueing/speculating about the cause without mentioning the passengers is a biiiiig no-no.

5) Beeing a 737 Captain for a major makes your willy bigger.

6) Beeing american makes you an expert because America invented flying.

7) Beeing english makes you an expert because America invented flying, and after all, america is british. Sort of. Has been. Well, you know...

8) Beeing english makes you an expert because you were fed on cynicism as a child.

9) Being German makes you very much unliked because we eat children for breakfast.

CAN WE PLEASE GET BACK TO TOPIC?

Okay guys, I really tried to piss you of. Can we now discuss on the facts without throwing drivel at each other?

sevenstrokeroll

23rd Feb 2008, 13:56

I will agree to your terms. However I ask that you be the referee/umpire from this point on. No attacks on the person posting, just debate the ideas, concepts, etc.

OK?

kwachon

23rd Feb 2008, 14:13

Sevenstrokeroll wrote in reply to His dudeness,

I will agree to your terms. However I ask that you be the referee/umpire from this point on.

I'm big enough to fight my own battles thank you and it will be a cold day in hell when I accede to the comments of sevenstrokeroll.

Flintstone

23rd Feb 2008, 18:19

1) We, the Germans invented nearly anything in flying. Aircraft, jet engines, ejector seats, RADAR, you name it. Fact, so don´t argue! In a nutshell: we are best, .... the rest. Wait a minute, that part has been stolen after the war by the `mericans...

Bombs. You forgot to mention bombs. Dropped one on my grandad's chip shop in WW2 as well you b@stards. You remember WW2? The one that sevenstroker won all by himself while capturing the Enigma machine from Das Boot.

2) RAF fighter jocks don´t fit american majors. Not arrogant and pompous enough they are. Or are they?

Hmmm, tricky one. How do you know there's a RAF Harrier (which the sevenstroker air force bought from the Brits) pilot in the room? He'll TELL you!

3) Single pilot jet pilots are the very best pilots. Willy is at least mighty and they ´d NEVER ever declare an emergency.

Getting a bit worried by your homo-erotic tendencies here HD. You're back to talking about willies again. Stop it.

4) Exemption from 3): Owner pilots. too damn bad pilots, not interested in anything about safety.Especially when they are mothers and have their sons with them, and have apparently trained more then once on a simulator. Whilst argueing/speculating about the cause without mentioning the passengers is a biiiiig no-no.

You've lost me with your rambling man. Damn you and your willy fixation!!

5) Beeing a 737 Captain for a major makes your willy bigger.

Sitting with my back to the wall now. Very worried.

6) Beeing american makes you an expert because America invented flying.

Stop teasing him. The Wrights learned about airframes from my mate Otto and others who used to launch themselves into the air and glide around in things that were (apparently) not aircraft. What were they then, bathtubs?:confused:

7) Beeing english makes you an expert because America invented flying, and after all, america is british. Sort of. Has been. Well, you know...

Now you're getting the hang of it! We have let the 'merkins look after that bit of the world for a while because we're erm, a bit busy at the minute. Trouble is they've filled the place up with Meskins and that lot that beat them in a war. What are they called? Errrrrrrm, Vietnamese! That's it, little guys. Hard workers. Will do your homework for $5 an hour.

8) Beeing english makes you an expert because you were fed on cynicism as a child.

No, no, no. As children were fed on bland cuts of fatty meat with piles of green mush and white mush that started life as perfectly wholesome vegetables since boiled to destruction thus ensuring every molecule of vitamins and goodness has been leached out. I do believe the leftovers are soaked and cooked in fat from cattle fed on pure steroids and sold as something called ' Mack-donn-ulds'.

9) Being German makes you very much unliked because we eat children for breakfast.

And steal people's countries and bomb my grandad's chip shop. B@stards. Haha, we showed you though. didn't we? We invented FOOTBALL (at which you beat us most times :*). PROPER football where the ball is kicked. Not that poncey game where guys get wrapped up in fluff and sponges and mince about for ten seconds at a time between commercial breaks.

Can we now discuss on the facts without throwing drivel at each other?

No. If sevenstroker can do it why can't the rest of us? This all makes as much sense as one of his posts.

sevenstrokeroll

23rd Feb 2008, 18:25

hisdudeness

will you umpire?

(refraining)

kwachon

23rd Feb 2008, 18:57

Sevenstokeroll wrote,

real airline pilots end up in the jumpseat trying to get home, and of course the PIC has to brief the jumpseaters on how to be comfortable in the jumpseat.

where the porn is stored

I just looked in the mirror. I just got a haircut and it looks good

Funny........

sevenstrokeroll

23rd Feb 2008, 19:41

kwachon

please answer a question for us. it pertains to the thread:

did you examine or train the pilot involved in the crash?

kwachon

23rd Feb 2008, 20:17

Just for you Sevenstrokeroll,

If you look at my profile you will see I am not type rated on the CJ, hence not authorized to teach or examine on it.

As I stated in post #8, I met this pilot on numerous occasions at my former place of work, not once did she display in my presence any of the false and negative attributes I have seen written on this thread particularly by you.

You seem to take great pleasure in trashing Flight Safety but you need to understand some basic facts,

a) An Instrument Rating is a pre-requisite for a type rating course with Flight Safety or any other FTO and as such they have no control as to where the training was received just that the applicant is suitably licensed.

b) The Practical Test Standards for the type rating issuance or recurrent training are neither derived by or in any part written by Flight Safety. Try looking at the FAR's.

c) Check rides are conducted by an FAA examiner or designee and as such in that position they hold no allegiance to Flight Safety or any other institution whilst operating in that capacity.

Strange thing is, for someone who professes to be a 737 Captain with "A Major US Airline", you seem oblivious to the obvious and have no knowledge of how check rides are carried out and who carries them out.

Very odd, very odd indeed!.

Flintstone

23rd Feb 2008, 21:03

<Yoda voice> The force is weak with this one</Yoda voice>

Looks like you've been sussed sevenstroker. Time to leave?

sevenstrokeroll

23rd Feb 2008, 22:20

flintstone: I don't think the USAF bought the Harrier. The USMC got them and they were built under license in the US by douglas...if I am not mistaken.

And the USMC is different than the USAF.

Kwachon:

I didn't look at your profile.

AS you didn't observe the pilot in question as an examiner or teacher, how did you observe her? simple question. Did you sit in on her sim sessions? Did you chat with her in the hallway?

by the way, I went to two FSI facilities for training. Both in Texas.

The MU2 sim training was conducted by someone who had never flown the MU2 (aka rice rocket). Really top notch staff their FSI!

The SA227(san antonio sewer pipe) training was mediocre at best. My then employer provided the designated examiner for the type ride.

both were done in the middle 80's.

I do doubt that FSI had in their sylabus "taxi through ditch".

And it is that very fact, observed by witnesses at the augusta airport that makes me think that this poor woman had other problems that particular night.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the AIM ( can you tell us what that means Kwachon?) asks pilots to check their readiness for flight with the term:

I
M
S
A
F
E

Certainly as an instructor, you can tell us what that means...even without looking it up.

An FAA examiner conducted a type rating ride for an America West pilot, the pilot passed the checkride/typeride, and later was arrested in Miami for being drunk at the controls of the plane.

So please don't tell me that one observation on one given day is the ultimate answer to a pilot's state of mind.

Flintstone...Yoda is a puppet. Go play with your puppets.

sevenstrokeroll

23rd Feb 2008, 22:33

Kwachon:

I see you flew the SA 227 also. Well, then you must be able to tell us all what "click clacks" are.

And where the "Po Folks" Restaurant is near the SA 227 facility in San Antonio.

Notice above what I thought of the SA 227 stuff at FSI...and that was before I knew you were involved.

(and for those who don't know, the mu2 doesn't require a type)

I know you know the garrett engine salute. I'm giving it to you now.

And you can tell us all about the SA226 jato bottle.

kwachon

23rd Feb 2008, 22:58

Interesting, I am not aware of any FSI facility in Texas with an MU2 sim, I do know about the SA227 though as I am typed on that aircraft and was once on that program as an Instructor. As for the AIM, well I will just leave that to your imagination.

Now then,

AS you didn't observe the pilot in question as an examiner or teacher, how did you observe her? simple question. Did you sit in on her sim sessions? Did you chat with her in the hallway?

As a 737 Captain for a major US Airline even you should know that instructors have to be observed by an examiner in the simulator teaching to maintain their currency regardless of who is sitting up front.

An FAA examiner conducted a type rating ride for an America West pilot, the pilot passed the checkride/typeride, and later was arrested in Miami for being drunk at the controls of the plane

What on earth are you trying to say here, are you blaming the FAA examiner?, he only did his job on that day, surely you as a 737 Captain for a major US Airline have had FAA checkrides, what has the pilot being caught drunk later have to do with it?. Are you blaming America West?, Could this be you?, It sure would answer a lot of questions.

my quote,

The Practical Test Standards for the type rating issuance or recurrent training are neither derived by or in any part written by Flight Safety. Try looking at the FAR's

Sevenstrokeroll quote,

I do doubt that FSI had in their sylabus "taxi through ditch

Mmmmm, I will let you think about that one. Should keep you busy for a few days.

Recurrent training for the CJ is not one day, it is normally 5 if not Part 135.

And finally just for you,

Flight Fitness | The "I’m Safe" Checklist
IIllness (http://www.leftseat.com/far61.htm#Prohibition on operations during medical deficiency)
Do I have an illness or any symptoms of an illness?
MMedication (http://www.leftseat.com/medications.htm)
Have I been taking prescription or over-the-counter drugs?
SStress (http://www.leftseat.com/stressarticle.htm)
Am I under psychological pressure from the job? Worried about financial matters, health problems or family discord?
AAlcohol (http://www.leftseat.com/substance.htm)
Have I been drinking within eight hours? Within 24 hours?
FFatigue (http://www.leftseat.com/sleep.htm)
Am I tired and not adequately rested?
EEating (http://www.leftseat.com/nut.html)
Am I adequately nourished?

Guess what, It did not come from the AIM, It is actually from the AME branch in Oklahoma City. You learn something new every day don't you, but of course you knew that anyway because you are a 737 Captain for a major US Airline.

As I said previously, "Very odd, very odd indeed."

Flintstone

23rd Feb 2008, 23:06

Flintstone...Yoda is a puppet. Go play with your puppets.

I am playing with a puppet, as are some of the others on here. We pull a string and you jump.

You're so insecure you can't help yourself. If you ever were a real pilot I'll bet more than a few of your co-pilots call in sick. CRM nightmare.

As a 737 Captain for a major US Airline even you should know that instructors have to be observed by an examiner in the simulator teaching to maintain their currency regardless of who is sitting up front.

That's probably too subtle for you sevenstroker but if you do work out what kwachon's telling you I can vouch for his credentials. Small world, innit?

kwachon

23rd Feb 2008, 23:11

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38116000/jpg/_38116565_pilots_afp300.jpg

Now then, which one are you sevenstrokeroll......I think the one on the left...

sevenstrokeroll

23rd Feb 2008, 23:32

click clack?

jato bottle/sa 226

and no, I am not an America West pilot.

And I taught CRM, so please, you guys are so off, I think you must be on the "A" of the above checklist.

AS A FLIGHT SAFETY INSTRUCTOR you don't know where the MU2 sim is? OH PLEASE. ASK.

Or maybe they got out of the MU2 biz.

So many crashes.

Flinstone vouching for Kwachon? That's like barney rubble vouching for fred.

So why not tell us you were in the sim with the pilot in question, observing the sim instructor?

I feel sorry for both of you. And Kwachon. You never flew for an airline. (That must be the reason you keep bringing up my quals.)

That's like not taking the training wheels off a bike.

I guess the headline could have read: Flight Safety Trained pilot crashes in Maine. Witnesses report difficulty in taxiing across ditch, inability to activate PCL.

Flintstone

23rd Feb 2008, 23:46

Selfstroker. You owe me a new ironymeter, mine just broke on seeing your last post. Funny how you rubbish someone vouching for another yet expect everyone to simply believe you. Maybe it's envy? Kwachon turns out to be higher qualified than you with first hand knowledge of the pilot you so readily trashed, bit embarrassing eh?

Selfstroker the CRM instructor. Now that IS funny :O

kwachon

23rd Feb 2008, 23:52

Selfstroker...found this on Airliners.net

Now then, read your last post, read this post and look at the photographs, my money is on the left.

A friend of mine (now at America West) flew the Metro IIs for Air Midwest in the 1980s. He mentioned that the aircraft was serverely underpowered (hence the JATO bottle in the tail) and that on hot Kansas days you'd have to watch the torque like a hawk on takeoff. Any deviations on a hot day with a big load and they would abort. (The big joke was that if you had to fire the JATO bottle, it would be easy to find you because the tower could find an arching smoke trail into the ground).

sevenstrokeroll

24th Feb 2008, 00:01

kwachon

now I know. you are a bluffer. you had to use the web to find out about the jato bottle on the SA 226.

You see, anyone who actually had flown the 226 or 227 would have known enough to write it without going to the internet.

you haven't talked about click clacks

or the garrett engine salute....probably not on the internet.

I didn't fly for Air Midwest. My SA 226/227 operator was in California. Based at SBP.

we are done now you phony.

anyone who had flown an SA 227 would know about the above.

You could tell us all about CAWI too.

But you can't. You can't tell us about CAWI, or click clacks or the salute.

because you aren't who you claim to be.

Over and OUT.

kwachon

24th Feb 2008, 00:14

Busted Selfstroker.

But just for fun,

CAWI, Continuous Alcohol Water Injection, 40% methyl Alcohol 60% demin water, max 5 mins on takeoff, in-flight prohibited and the tank holds 16 gallons of AWI fluid.

Click clacks, A unique type of door pin used on the doors.

Well I guess you need your alcohol fix now. I suggest you honor the terms of your rehab and quit pretending to be someone you are not.

See ya

Duck Rogers

24th Feb 2008, 00:32

People. sevenstrokeroll is indeed a remarkable individual.

In various posts he has stated that he learned to fly in 1975 and that he flew the metro in 1982.

In his registration profile he gives his date of birth as 1974.

Duck
Moderator

TowerDog

24th Feb 2008, 00:46

In various posts he has stated that he learned to fly in 1975 and that he flew the metro in 1982.

In his registration profile he gives his date of birth as 1974.

How I wish I was a fast learner like that.
Holy Mother of God, he must be the new Messiah?

I find this thread kind of facinating indeed: Talk big and call my bluff...:sad:
The willy factor is also out there.
The B-737 Captain for a Major US Carrier seem kind of immature with a huge chip on the shoulder.
I'd say: Busted..:{

Flintstone

24th Feb 2008, 10:12

He has gone a little quiet, hasn't he?

sevenstrokeroll

24th Feb 2008, 14:41

Kwachon, in his last post, admits to being busted.

Kwachon...still has not answered the one question that the internet cannot answer...what is the garrett engine salute?

After I posted the bit about jato bottles and his response...taken , cut and pasted from an internet site I realized he was a phony.

CAWI

Click Clacks

also have internet references. though even his click clack response was weak and doesn't nail the importance of the click clack to a plane he is supposedly "typed" in.

And as to DUCK: you have violated the privacy option of your forum, thus opening you and pprune to legal action.

I got my ppl in '75

but you are wrong about the years I flew the MU2 and the metroliner. MU2 was'85. Metroliner 86-88. And no where did I say MU2 in 82.

Flintstone, I live in America and our time zone is different than yours, excuse me for sleeping, and not responding right away. And why do you call me "selfstroker" when my internet name is SEVENSTROKEROLL?

I'll bet you and Kwachon can't even tell everyone what a sevenstroke roll is.

Towerdog: you put scuba diving ahead of flying in your profile, so I take all your comments with a grain of salt.

And again, it amazes me that none of you have picked up on the inability of kwachon to explain what a garrett engine salute is.

of course since most of your guys are eurocentric, the lack of knowledge doesn't surprise me.

kwachon

24th Feb 2008, 15:27

Now lets see,

Date of Birth 1974

Got PPL in 1975

Flew MU2 in 1985

Flew Metroliner in 86/88

How about the 737?

Do the math!.

Your lies have trapped you and you have reverted to attacking all who have made comments. It is quite pathetic really, you are clearly a fraud and have been found out. By continuing this charade you are doing nothing to improve your situation.

Oh and click clacks were designed to maintain the fuselage integrity due to the doors being a structual part of the fuselage as they were so large. (and no I did not need to look that up).

Jato bottle was to automatically fire and assist takeoff in the event of an engine failure and it was mounted in the tail cone. (no I did not need to look that up).

Just knew it pi@@ed you off by not answering...

How about this

Seven-stroke roll RRLLRRL- LLRRLLR

I suggest you find another forum where you can pretend to be someone you are not.

You deserve no future comments so consider this my farewell to you, now go dig another hole and fall in it. I am sure we will see many but as seen before they will be irrelevent.

Goodbye

sevenstrokeroll

24th Feb 2008, 15:42

FYI

I was born in 1956 and made a small error while posting my private profile...You do the math. You can ask Duck Rogers how to change DOB on the profile. You have to contact the administrator. Rotsa ruck there!

Ah, now you seem to know about how the click clacks are part of the structural integrity of the plane. Good for you. but how do you reconcile that I called you on it and made you expand upon it? GO AHEAD, HOW DO YOU RECONCILE THAT I MADE YOU EXPAND ON THIS?

BUT THE TRUTH IS THIS, YOU HAVE STILL NOT ANSWERED WHAT A GARRETT ENGINE SALUTE IS. AND THERE IS THE RUB.

You see, no where on the internet is the garrett engine salute listed. All along I have listed things that only pilots would really know. Not stuff internet guys could look up. Why else would I talk about dangling feet on the jumpseat, or where Porn was stored?

Those things can't be looked up on the internet. You have to have really been in the cockpit for many years to know those things.

ladies and gentlemen of the jury I ask you. Why hasn't he answered a question that is the equivilent of asking a Brit what "bird" is (and not a starling)?

BY placing the sticking of a seven stroke roll on the forum, he has just proven his ability to use the internet to look things up. It is a drum rudiment to be sure and in the American form does not reverse.

KWACHON: I hope you mean it when you say goodbye. I really do.

to any professionl pilot who came up the hard way in America reading this forum in detail, the facts are clear. I've spent a good time of my life in the cockpit. I am who I say I am.

Can Kwachon say the same?

kwachon

24th Feb 2008, 16:07

Editing previous posts for effect after a reply does not work sevenstrokerol, The date and timestamp gives it away...

sevenstrokeroll

24th Feb 2008, 16:17

I edited my post because I misspelled away as aqway.

still no answer to the salute question.

and you said good bye once.

and you can't reconcile how I know about click clacks

either admit I am a pilot or accuse me of lying...one more time.

kwachon

24th Feb 2008, 16:28

asking a Brit what "bird" is Time spent in prison. (Google English Slang) Something 2 America West pilots know a lot about.

I was born in 1956 and made a small error while posting my private profile

Guess the numbers are next to each other...1974..honest mistake... NOT!

All along I have listed things that only pilots would really knowWhy else would I talk about dangling feet on the jumpseat, or where Porn was stored?

Something every wannabe pilot needs to know.

to any professionl pilot

Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicant's pilot certificate as are necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft. FAR 61.83 (c)

sevenstrokeroll

24th Feb 2008, 16:39

kwachon, I thought you said goodbye.

ok

forgive my misspellings...I admit that failing.

you still haven't told us about the salute...and so many chances to do so.

AND you even got "birds" wrong. Cute girls...did you do well with the birds? even an American who had seen the film, "the great escape would know what that was"...not a YARD BIRD, which refers to a convict.

You Lose.

You Lose.

You Lose.

sevenstrokeroll

24th Feb 2008, 16:41

NTSB Preliminary Report Issued On Maine Citation Crash (source ANN)

Thu, 14 Feb '08

Notes Jet Ran Off Taxiway Twice Before Takeoff
The National Transportation Safety Board is out with its preliminary report on the February 1 crash of a Cessna Citation near Augusta, ME... and it paints a curious picture of the events prior to the accident.
As ANN reported, the accident claimed the lives of businesswoman Jeanette Symons, and her 10-year-old son, Balan. Symons was the founder and CEO of Industrious Kid, and co-founder of social networking website Imbee.com.
Maine's Kennebec Journal newspaper quotes NTSB investigators, who say Symons appeared to be confused about her surroundings from the time she started taxiing for takeoff from Augusta State Airport, until her final radio call to controllers just before the crash, at about 1745 Eastern time.
Investigators said Symons was given a standard briefing on weather conditions at 1700. Reported weather at the time was light snow turning to freezing rain, which witnesses said was starting to accumulate on parked cars. Symons filed an IFR flight plan to Lincoln, NE; FAA records confirm she was an instrument-rated pilot.
Witnesses told investigators they saw the jet run through a ditch while taxiing, its left main tire becoming stuck in ice. The engines were heard operating at "a high rate of power." Shortly afterward, Symons taxied through ice and off the asphalt yet again, then radioed her intention to depart from an incorrect runway.
NTSB reported an employee of Maine Instrument Flight turned on the pilot-controlled taxi and runway lights when Symons failed to do so, but it's not clear whether the intent was to help direct her to the proper runway.
After takeoff, at 3,000 feet, Symons radioed departure control at Portland International Jetport to report an attitude indicator failure. NTSB reported she also said she didn’t know which way she was turning. Four minutes after takeoff, the plane crashed and burned in a wooded area of West Gardiner.
The NTSB also notes Symon's Citation 525 was pulled from the hangar and onto the ramp about an hour before takeoff, to make room for a jet operated by the hangar's Part 121 owner -- which cancelled its flight due to weather conditions.
Release of the NTSB's full report on probable cause is expected in about a year.

sevenstrokeroll

24th Feb 2008, 16:48

This thread has been damaged by the sad attempts to discredit my qualifications to give opinions on this tragic crash.

I hope we will all re read the above summary of events leading up to the tragic crash.

Confusion. That word stands out. Taxi off the taxiway. Wrong runway announcement. Not turning on the Pilot Controlled lighting.

Let's get back to the thread.

kwachon

24th Feb 2008, 18:44

Yet again you fail to produce all the information. If you read the official preliminary report you will see important things that were left out in your version and is based on first and second person information not third, in other words ANN's read on the report.

NTSB Preliminary Report.

Accident occurred Friday, February 01, 2008 in West Gardiner, ME
Aircraft: Cessna Citation 525, registration: N102PT
Injuries: 2 Fatal.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On February 1, 2008, about 1748 eastern standard time, a Cessna Citation 525, N102PT, crashed in a wooded area in West Gardiner, Maine. The private/instrument-rated pilot and one passenger received fatal injuries; the airplane was destroyed. The flight was operated by a private individual under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 as a personal flight. Instrument meteorological conditions prevailed and an instrument flight rules flight plan was filed for a flight from Augusta, Maine to Lincoln, Nebraska. The flight had originated from the Augusta State Airport about 1745.

Representatives of the fixed base operator (FBO) at Augusta State Airport stated that the airplane was fueled and moved from the ramp into the FBO's hangar earlier that morning at the pilot's request. However, the hanger is utilized by a part 121 operator that provides service for that area. The operator canceled its 1630 flight due to the weather conditions and needed the hangar to house its airplane. The Citation was taken out of the hangar and moved back to the ramp area about that time. The pilot was informed of this possibility at time of the request and she stated that she understood that the other customer had priority over the hangar space.

A person identifying herself as the pilot of N102PT called a flight service station at 1701 to file an instrument flight plan from Augusta, Maine to Lincoln, Nebraska, The pilot received a standard weather briefing for the flight at that time. Witnesses stated that the pilot arrived at the airport about 1715, at which time she and the passenger loaded their personnel effects into the airplane, returned a rental car, and paid for the fuel. She and the passenger then boarded the airplane. Shortly after, about 1730, the airplane's engines were started and the airplane was observed taxing. The FBO representative heard the pilot's announcements over the radio in the FBO. He also noticed the airplane was not on the taxiway, but on the grass area on the south side of the asphalt taxiway. At that time the ground was covered with snow and ice.

For the past hour and a half, the weather condition had turned from light snow to freezing rain, and ice was observed covering the cars in the parking lot. The FBO representative noted the pilot did not activate the airport's taxi and runways lights via the common airport frequency radio channel. It was observed that the airplane taxied through a ditch, which was covered with ice and snow. The airplane's engines were heard at a high rate of power about this time. It was later discovered that the airplane's left main tire broke through the ice and became stuck in the ditch. The airplane continued on the grass area after the high engine power was heard. The FBO representative heard the pilot announce the wrong runway (runway 35) that she was planning to depart from. The FBO representative turned on the runway and taxi lights after hearing the incorrect runway announcement. The pilot later announced a change of departure from runway 35 to runway 17, while the airplane was observed back taxing on runway 26 onto taxiway "C" Charlie. About 1745 the announcement for departure from runway 17 was heard; the FBO representative observed the departure at that time.

After takeoff, the pilot contacted the Air Traffic Controller (ATC) and reported that she was at 1,000 feet, climbing to 10,000 feet. ATC requested the pilot to squawk ident on the transponder. Radar contact was made with the airplane when it was about 2 miles southwest of the Augusta State Airport. About one minute later, the pilot declared an emergency and stated, "We've got an attitude indicator failure". About seven seconds later, the pilot announced over the frequency they were not certain which way they were turning. Radar contact was lost shortly after that.

About 1749, local authorities received several 911 calls from residents reporting a possible airplane crash. A short time later, the airplane wreckage was located about 6 miles south-southwest of the Augusta State Airport. One witness stated to local law enforcement authorities that he saw an airplane fly overhead at a low altitude and moments later observed a large explosion off in the distance.

Once again, lets wait and see the official report before making more speculative reasons for this accident. Not once does the word "Confusion" appear in the NTSB version.

(See what I mean sevenstrokeroll, The damage to this thread has mostly been carried out by you. Your credibility regarding your qualifications was lost a long time ago. Not for one minute does anybody believe that you are a "737 Captain for a Major US Airline" so get real and move on).