TACA-LAN-COPA No-Hire Agreement

[777RamAirTurbine]

Ladies and Gentlemen

I just got off the phone with a good friend of mine working in TACA Peru and was told something that in my opinion is the sleaziest, most disgusting and unbelievable way of doing business. Besides that, IT HAS to be absolutely illegal.
It filtered out that the owners of TACA International, COPA Airlines and LAN Airlines got themselves together for a private meeting in which it was agreed upon to not solicit nor accept Airline Personnel from any of the other airlines in order to avoid having to raise salaries due to competition and keep theirs profits high. Not just that, just the record to be a former employee having worked with the opposite airline, he or she is to be considered an “enemy combatant” and not be recruited. All employees are to be considered that, not just Pilots, mechanics and dispatchers.

Now, I know this is illegal in the U.S., I can not believe Unions and lawyers in S. America are not all over this issue. This HAS to be against every freedom of choice law that is out there. I can also not believe that the Ministry of Work just lets them do these kinds of things without investigating the issue. But as everyone knows, the current Government, APRA, at work in Peru has a tradition of being extremely corrupt anyway.
I also was told that the agreement was initiated by the owners of LAN as they would have lost quite a bit of their Pilot staff based in Peru since their conditions are way below the waterline. Additionally, LAN Peru just changed Operations Management and the current Top Dog is a former Manager of the Bankrupt Airline “AeroContinente”, who’s former owner is currently on Trial for Charges of Drug-trafficking, Money Laundering and Murder. Imagine the “Iron Fist” and “Back-Stabbing” policy he must have initiated.:{ Those kinds of people NEVER change!

I can not understand why a company like TACA International, an extremely well respected company with extremely professionally oriented personnel would even think about getting into an Agreement like that. They would have had the raisins of the cake available to them, so many pilots want to work there because this company promotes personal growth and rewards professionalism. LAN and COPA I can understand, they treat their people like scum and pay them 25% to 38% below market values without profit sharing, unless you work directly in the LAN Chile Holding part, THEN you’re home safe!:ok:

But still, WHO in the hell would want to work in a shady company like that? No wonder LAN Peru got themselves unionized a few months ago, no wonder COPA Airlines needs to hire almost retired Airline Captains from Bolivia and Nicaragua who barely speak enough English to order a Pizza at Dominos to keep themselves afloat.:cool:

Oh, another thing worth mentioning: As TACA raised their Age limit from 60 to 65 after the U.S. Congress allowed us to continue flying, LAN Peru got themselves into a pretty pickle as they were gambling on the fact that TACA Peru Pilots close to 60 would jump ship and come over. That must have hurt! Deserve them right though.:D

Additionally it also filtered out that a lot of close-to-over-the-hill pilots in the US from various “pirate companies” were asked to join LAN Peru in order to meet the necessity for the market. Turned out that for THAT low wage no one wanted to come over, with the exception of two B767 Captains from Bolivia. Now imagine that: BOTH failed their simulator training! Hmmm… that’s why they came, and THAT’s the quality recruitment department an airline like LAN Peru has!!

It’s really sad to see things like that happen, unfortunately they do. The Cueto Family found out a few years ago that their strategy of being a proud and honest, hard working airline had to become an image only.

I highly suggest Head-Hunters and Recruitment Companies to start advertising in the local Tabloids over there. These kinds of things usually bring a LOT of employee dissatisfaction and make recruiting for well trained, well educated pilots’ sooooo much easier! There you ganna be able to make a buck or two!

I hope no one I know is going to be on board of the airplane that will go down sometime soon, as employee exploitation and unprofessional behavior on behalf of management always go hand-in-hand.:(

Please, Criticism and suggestions are EXTREMELY welcome, I might not have the best sources of information’s; please correct me if I am wrong!

Thanks for reading my stuff and always blue skies

[Valdiviano]

Welcome to the GLOBAL world. Big Business, Big money, at work.

[Panama Jack]

Who cares. Pilots aren't exactly jumping from say, TACA to go to work for COPA or vice versa. They are going East . . . far far East.

[777RamAirTurbine]

Yeah, they would, especially from LAN to TACA :ugh:... I have old friends who applied... and rumor has it, there is a stack of 15 applications on the OPS MNGR desk they would take in a heart beat. TACA is waiting for LAN to break the agreement, so they can get the boys over to them... TACA Peru is "The Gentlemen's Airline of Peru", or was... they would take only people with very high standards, excellent English and very high experience. Since LAN has an unfair competitive advantage by being able to hire foreigners, I can't believe TACA actually agreed to this entire BS! Especially since they would be to their advantage!
Hmmm... Take that PJ :O haha

[Panama Jack]

That's strange . . . and I always thought that LAN was better than TACA. In any case, it will be interesting to see the "blocks" taken out. Just a matter of time IMHO. I read a few months ago that alone the airlines of India and China will require on average 4500 new pilots per year-- which is roughly the equivalent of the entire pilot workforce at Lufthansa. Even a small leak from Latin American carriers should have a significant effect. Stay or go, the future looks bright. :ok:

[777RamAirTurbine]

PJ
You would think so, but... reality is, the current new OPS MNGR in LAN Peru is making life difficult there so many people motivated to go, but they don't want to leave their homes so would prefer just go to an Airline that does not burn their pilots up like LAN does on their domestic routes. But with the agreement that these guys have, it’s not possible. As English has become a subject (To be in LAN, Level 4 appears to be enough, to apply in TACA you need at least Level 5 and are expected to achive Level 6 within 2 Years!) so many won’t make the jump to the Asian Continent, and as they something like fly 6 days on, 24 hours off, studying has become a luxury. :{ Not that some of them would use extra time to study...:hmm:

Which one is better? Hmmm… pay wise I heard TACA, security wise, LAN. COPA? No clues here.:rolleyes:

COPA, LAN and TACA are doing that on purpose, is a good tactic actually, from a business point of view. The practical part is, the ones that can leave, will leave, no question about it! But what does that do to the “Professional” Standard in the region? You ever heard of a good flight schools in that region? The majority fly first in the Air Force, then as a tradition they fly in the airlines… But do they become true professionals? Also, we all know how some Latinos are…:ugh:

I hope the consequences to civil aviation will not be as high as the lives lost in aircraft accidents like in TANS Peru. There the “Military” Wanna-be’s screwed the pouch BIGTIME.

On a brighter note, there is a new addition to the Peruvian Airline Market. A few Months ago Primaris launched their new little sister, AirPeru. I saw their plane the other day here in Miami, really pretty. I was told by a Mech they fly at the moment with US Pilots until the Peruvians trained their own FO’s, and then Captain seats were to be given performance based by US Instructors. To lighten the mood, I heard a strong rumor the 8 FO’s that were sent to MIA for training returned disapproved, ALL 8! None of them were presented to the check rides, since the Instructors were not able to communicate themselves with their students to teach them how the 757 flies. And here is the Kicker: Those were former Captains (!!) on the 737 in TANS. As once again the military put their hands into the business, they became a cancer inside that Operation. I hope the big sister finds out what is going on and starts kicking some Butt and cutting some heads…

Oh well, all the feelings of being upset don’t help my colleagues down there, they will eventually find their way out. Still, I worked many years down there, and the S. American Operations Theater is elegant, romantic and beautiful. I guess all that is gone now and as the companies have been so egoistic, the airline employees have to start working for themselves as well.
I hope some companies go there to recruit more excellent pilots in that region. There are some really good young professionals there…


OH, By the way, Rumors also has it, LAN pilots throughout the ranks have failed to achive Level 4 English. A round of :D ... It's gotta suck flying Transcontinental Routes not beeing able to comunicate yourself with ATC unelss your Copilot speaks English. I can not imagine myself not knowing what is going on beeing dependent on a young punk :O in the right seat :rolleyes:...

[Flircat]

Very good insight into this rumor from you all. I would bet a year's salary that it was promoted by LAN, very well known for their mistreatment of employees, specially flight and deck crews. Did you know that COPA airlines made a pilot recruitment in Ecuador a few months ago, offering good packages and benefits, at leats for the region. Do you know how many of the LAN pilots got hired there???.... Not a single one, and yes, many applied. One wonders, ummmm!!

As for the English tests, about 80% of the LAN Chile pilots didn't pass and that is why the "old yeller" Captains keep flying next to younger, much more competent F.Os. (in terms of language skills at least) to US destinations, another reason why it takes them 8-11 years for UPGs. Oh, and in LAN Ecuador, around 90% didn't pass, mainly because of the background of the majority of their latest hirees, Air Force low levels which are the happiest with the crapy salary they earn for the 1000 hrs they fly a year compared to the previous much crapier salary they used to get.

One wonders how these arilines want to make it to the top in the world, certainly they won't by hiring incompetent crew members and paying them the lowest possible hoping that would have them happy in the saddle.

Good luck to all those passengers brave enough to put up to this...:=

[_FLYBYHAND_]

TACA = DISORDER
COPA= DISORDER
LAN = DISORDER

So i dont think that pilots are going to jump from , taca to copa to lan
only for a few bucks

Pilots from those airlines are going to jump to Asiana, Oman , Paramount, Qatar , etc...... as im going to.

So thats not a issue . dont worry be happy

by the way, few days ago 3 VP resingned from copa so that means : something is happen in COPA ...:ooh:

[Panama Jack]

I can't argue with your logic _FLYBYHAND_. The only problem is that some of these other airlines that you have mentioned are also associated with disorder, or autocracy or other ills. So check the exit for smoke, fire, debris or water before you open the door, and look carefully before you jump.

[richard III]

flirtcat, flybyhand
I don't know a single pilot in Lan that has applied to COPA, one Captain who was sacked a couple of years back went to COPA and know left for the middle east. By the way, you are not gonna be able to jump anywhere because recruiters are not gonna even look at your CV if you keep posting :mad:'t like that, even if there's some truth to it. You have to do the dirty laundry at home.

[777RamAirTurbine]

Hello everyone…

Well, first of all, I am stunned and surprised that someone actually replied to my thread… I feel honored! Thanks to everyone who replies and for taking my thoughts serious enough to have a discussion about it. Even my wife does not take me that serious :}
My thoughts to the replies:
Flircat, I wonder why COPA did not take the LAN Ecuador Pilots who have Glass Cockpit experience if the agreement between the owners was just that, don’t take any from each other.:ugh:
A good friend of min who flies in LAN Peru explained to me they are also getting themselves into this “prefer Air Force types over civilians” mode, for the same probable reason like in LAN Ecuador: “Cheap Labor”. Westernized FO’s are on the average more skilled, have better language skills and a lot have abroad educations, but are they considered for UPG’s, even after4-6 years of service? Of course not! Rest asure, Management knows that an Airbus Captain with 500 hours in Type is worth his weight in Gold these days (or at least Silver, to not overdo it), that is “IF” he speaks sufficient English to apply in other companies. So, the old farts in the left seat see themselves threatened, especially after failing “a basic” ATC English exam… (I’d feel extremely embarrassed, and in Latin Americas don’t like that feeling at all, it makes them feel inferior and unimportant but is not a motivation to become better like in most western cultures…) And you’re right about the salary, before the wife was getting a diamond ring once a lifetime, now they have money to live in a 3-bedroom apartment. Also, the Uniform looks nicer, the NATO olive just does not go with new the drapes at home…:hmm:

Fly-by-hand, the disorder status of all airlines in the region is more than obvious, not just in LAN, Copa and TACA. But take GOL for instance, these guys managed to efficiently and economically create the second biggest Airline in S. America. And to top it off, they bought an airline that is getting slowly out of bankruptcy. So is it impossible to do? No! They took the right people and put them into the right place. That easy, no buddy-of-mine policy mixed with incompetence. That’s why the earlier mentioned airlines will have problems in the future, that’s why pilots who have the ability to count 2+2 together (in English) will leave rather earlier than later. The dream of a quick and early upgrade to Captain is not the driving force anymore. And I can assure you, if Qatar went to recruit in San Jose, Guayaquil and Lima themselves, they would cause quite a few heart attacks. Believe me!
But, to finish your thought, it’s NOT about hopping from one to the other, its about the possibility of doing so, which in turns raises the wages of a free and competitive economy. Assuming this: Tomorrow TACA needs 20 A320 Pilots. They take them from LAN, because they pay lets say $1000 more a month. Of course LAN fires a few managers and the base pay goes up, and so people from TACA go to LAN, then COPA comes and takes and so on… At the end, people don’t need to go to the Middle East because they get paid sufficiently at home, which gives “Power-to-the-people”. The No-Hire-Agreement eliminates the need to Policies like “compete-and-treat-your-employee-better” philosophies. In LAN Ecuador people would leave if they could, in LAN Peru too. What I personally heard, especially the FO’s are sick of being overrun for UPG’s, so they want leave even if it means to hold back of being a captain for a few years. To be honest, I have no clue what it is that makes you a different person if you’re a Captain, I got more paid the next day of my Upgrade and had to sign a few papers more than before. I let my FO's fly all the interesting routes, because I was not able to do so when I was an FO. But in the end, the left seat is not a golden throne as many pretend it to be.

Richard, I do happen to have met long time ago a Peruvian Captain who used to be the Chief of Instruction in COPA, he flies 737's or 767’s in LAN Peru now. I am not sure if true, but he was not sacked, his contract ended so he went home. But forgive me, I am not sure what you are trying to say with “dirty laundry at home” I had the sincere impression this forum was created to bring out the information not shared by superiors of colleagues. :E

Again, I greatly appreciate you folks commenting on the issues.

Always blue skies, with a few puffy white clouds…:ok:

[lcpic]

hey guys on the subject of taca.

does anyone know or have info if taca is currently hiring and if its on hold?
i was under the impression that they needed pilots?

[Valdiviano]

Hi, from the other side of the world
Since migrating from Chile in 1971 and being involved in flying in Australia since then and until 1989, I have NEVER EVER experienced what is happening here. Australia, due to the good flying weather and good standard of living HAS NEVER experienced what is happening at the moment, A SHORTAGE OF PILOTS. There was always MORE pilots, than JOBS. In the last year the Regionals (Saab 340, Dash 8) have lost up to 60% of their pilots to airlines. Genearal aviation and flying schools pilots are going straight to Airlines without having to go to Regionals. Regionals are cancelling flights due to lack of pilots. Regional are starting their own flying schools, but GUESS what, they do not have enough flying instructors. Australia is accepting pilots under the special working visas, wich in time turn into permanent residence.
Have a look at www.afap.org.au click on jobs,click on lastest jobs. Never ever seen in Australia before. What I am trying to say, if you DO NOT stick together NOW for BETTER conditions, you will NEVER have a better oportunity.

[777RamAirTurbine]

Valdiviano

Thanks for the input, but it's kinda off the subject and was hoping we could continue the discussion of the original subject without getting distracted.
I know there might be a few pilots interested in flying outside the S. Americas and I appreciate the subject, but I think you might want to open your own thread to cover this subject.
Thank you
:D

[100BMEP]

Can you say ALPA? TACA pilots were represented by ALPA from 1965 to the early 80's.