3-axis microlights

[BristolScout]

Having flown the heavy stuff for most of my life, I want to get back to basic flying. Obviously flexwing has its attractions but I'm also interested in the very basic three-axis machines, essentially very simple two seater. Any recommendations (or otherwise!) welcomed. thanks.

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

Personal bias after fourteen years of cheap flying, including touring in Europe. Mine is the Group A version, but there is little difference in performance and cost to the microlight version.

There are lots of excellent microlight aircraft around, from the very basic to the very sophisticated (expensive!)

PM if you want to know more.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.

[rosti]

www.remos.com

[tangovictor]

any of the Rotax engined microlights, are great, depending on your pref for high or low wing, I tried most before deciding, all reasonable to run / maintain
& before others bang on about mtow, unless you got a steel bladder, most have a fair range

[Genghis the Engineer]

Depends upon what sort of flying and how much you want to spend.

But, I'd look at the Thruster T600, X'Air (the original not the later "Falcon" model), and Chevvron 2-32c for starters. If you want ultra-cheap look at the Thruster TST or Cyclone AX3 which are selling for around £4-£5k for a reasonable 2-seater these days, or if a bit more money to play with a Sky Ranger or Eurostar.

If you aren't in a hurry however, the microlight show at Popham on the May bank holiday weekend would be a worthwhile trip - you'll see a huge range, chat to their pilots, and no doubt if you take your chequebook that there will be some spirited attempts to sell you a few which you can use to grab a few free trips and see what you think.

G

[chevvron]

I always liked the look of the Snowbird. Any still flying? What were their problems?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think there's a few still flying, and I've certainly flown a couple of Snowbirds, but not recently.

Nice cockpit environment and quite reasonable performance. There are a few peculiarities - the original aircraft showed propeller rather than engine RPM which takes a bit of getting used to (although I think that most owners changed it for a standard RPM gauge) and I seem to remember an odd LED ASI that pretty much everybody replaced also, and the aircraft has no ailerons - it uses upper surface spoilers on each side this requires almost no rudder. As a result the aircraft was designed with a grossly underpowered rudder so has almost no crosswind capability. The other thing was the Rotax 532 engine which wasn't overly reliable - but if it dies I'm pretty certain that there's a mod to do a straight change to a 582.

There was a chap in South Wales trying to get Snowbird building up and running again a few years ago as a kitplane but he sadly died before he sold any kits and although she tried very hard his widow couldn't persuade anybody to take it on.

A nice aeroplane for its day, but I'm not sure I'd buy one now - primarily because if anything bent I'd have to reverse engineer and make my own spares, which would be a nuisance.

G

[twistedenginestarter]

I recently flew a Thruster. This one had a two-stroke engine that was as smooth as anything. For £2x,000 and negligible running costs, it's worth a serious look.

[boundless]

From the drawing board of Yuri Yakovlev himself, the Aeroprakt A22 (http://www.foxbat.co.uk/intro.htm) is the most exquisitely engineered two seater 'pure and simple' aircraft anywhere in the world.

Built to real world aviation engineering standards, and then some.

Or if you want the ultimate weightshift single seat classic, there's only one (http://www.aircreation.net/aircraft/racer.html) contender.

[philipnz]

(http://www.remos.com/)www.remos.com (http://www.remos.com/)
(http://www.remos.com/)

mine arrives in 2 weeks :)

[BristolScout]

Thanks one and all. Lots of food for thought and I certainly hope to get to Popham!

[BristolScout]

One further question, having read, marked and inwardly digested the foregoing. I'm familiar with the Rotax engine family but know nothing about Jabiru. Any pointers again much appreciated.

[tangovictor]

the "remos" isn't available in the UK, if you want the ultimate 3 axis, uk wise, its the Dynamic. www.ylac.co.uk

[Rod1]

If you want the ultimate micro;

http://www.avnet.co.uk/lts/pages/ulc.htm

You will also find a Club version (VLA), which is quicker, cheaper and lifts 30kg more for the same running costs. I built one and am very pleased with it! See review in Aug 07 Flyer.

Rod1

[Frelon]

Have a look at the FK 9 Mk IV Utility from B&F Technik Factory. Looks the biz with a Mercedes Smart engine (with clutch).

See pictures here http://www.innov-air.com/index.php?id=Galleries&gal=67

[Genghis the Engineer]

I want to get back to basic flying.

if you want the ultimate 3 axis

If you want the ultimate micro;

the biz with a Mercedes Smart engine

Just thought I'd point out that not everbody seems to be answering the question that BristolScout asked!



BristolScout - you did ask about Jabiru engines. They're Australian built air-cooled 4-stroke direct drive engines. As an engine they can be excellent - a bit (~8kg) lighter and cheaper than the Rotax 912 equivalent and the more recent ones actually seem to be generating the power claimed on the brochures (the earlier ones most definitely didn't). It doesn't however like high inertia propellers, is a bit temperamental over cooling, and the product support in the UK isn't as good as for the Rotax product.

Personally I think that the Jabiru engined X'Air, Escapade, Easy Raider & Thruster (especially if fitted with a reasonably lightweight wooden prop) are fantastic aeroplanes, but even there would be a little wary over product support. Most of the market tends to prefer the heavier and more expensive Rotax product for that reason alone.

G

[Rod1]

“I'd point out that not everbody seems to be answering”

Maybe, but it is fun!

The Jabs seem to suffer from lots of small problems requiring £500 a go. The Rotax seem to just work. This is based on aircraft around my area but does seem to apply to all 5 Jab owners I know and 10 plus Rotax owners. When I asked PFA eng about engine reliability 5 years ago, the Rotax was the most reliable in the fleet and the Jab was well down, but I think the Jab has probably improved its QA since. The geared Rotax can produce much more power at takoff with a CS prop than a Jab can with a light wooden prop. A 80 hp Rotax will work in a Europa for example, but an 85hp Jab will not do the job.

Rod1

[BristolScout]

Genghis.

Thanks again for a mine of useful information. Yes, I am looking at the cheap and cheerful end of the market for a number of reasons, not least in that I'd like to promote affordable flying in my area which doesn't have the affluence of the SE of England. I'm very conscious from my weekend instructing that an awful lot of young (and not-so-young) people want to fly desperately but can't afford to maintain SEP currency.

From what everyone has so kindly advised here, and from trawling the net, I'm getting warm feelings for the Thruster. One thing that I can't seem to establish is whether it is a routinely trailable machine. I noted an ad in Microlight Flying for one including trailer, but is this an aeroplane that can be routinely dismantled and trailed or is it preferable to keep it rigged normally?

Thanks also to those advising about the posh aircraft. It's wonderful to feel such enthusiasm shining through.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've got a 1/10th share in an old Thruster TST which I'm very fond of. At the moment it's U/S, but should be up and running again later this month if you'd like to come and have a go. It's on a strip in Hampshire, so not a million miles from you.

Yes, it's a lovely little aeroplane - slow, but cheap and reliable and I get a lot of fun out of it. But, to trailer it is a bit of a pain - the wings don't derig all that easily and whilst you'd be fine for a 2-person flying holiday to trailer it there and back, I don't think I'd recommend it every time you fly.

Cheap and cheerful - yep the TST does that nicely and is fairly unique in being contentedly left on a tie-down, very cheap, 2-seats + dual controls, yet still with full product support. The only other aeroplane that I can think of offhand that ticks all of those boxes would be a Cyclone AX3 (which has one further advantage - doors!).

G

[chevvron]

My now defunct club at Halton started with a Thruster and an AX 3. Never got the hang of landing the Thruster, but the AX 3 was a superb 'fun' machine; very STOL, not too fast in the cruise (60kt ish), control response very quick; you had to 'fly' it all the time and as I was used to C150/152 it was a pleasant change; got so bored in those Cessnas.

[BristolScout]

Thanks both.
Genghis, I'll certainly take you up on your kind offer, as and when you can fit me in.
Chevvron, does your title mean you have some experience of the Microlight of the same name?

[snapper41]

I learned on the Jabiru-powered Thruster Sprint, and never had an engine problem; more than capable. I then went to a Jab-powered Skyranger (very briefly), before buying into a C42 syndicate. I love the C42 - Rotax 912, great cabin, and great performance. It is a level above the 'basic flying' you're after, but well worth it for the comfort!

[The Flying Pram]

The Kolb Twinstar has quick folding wings as standard, so could be trailer'd fairly easily.

[BristolScout]

Snapper.

Thanks. I know what you mean about the C42. We have Ikarus at Swansea where I instruct and it's an incredible aeroplane. However, I fly light singles routinely, so I'm really after the very basic stuff for my own amusement.

Pram.

What's the Twinstar like to fly?

[chevvron]

My club switched to Chevvrons in about '95 after Angus Fleming came and demonstrated a Hirth (45hp) engined one to us. We actually had the Konig 4 cyl radial (32hp) versions with the C wing ie upward moving flaps. Imagine my surprise one day when pre-flighting the 'spare' aircraft which up till then had been stored in a trailer; I pulled the flap handle and no flaps appeared! Looking under the wing I discovered why; it had the B wing with downwards moving flaps!!
One thing about both versions ie Konig and Hirth was how quiet they were; the locals around Halton complained like mad about Rotax engines but didn't seem to notice the Chevvrons.
Incidentally I asked Angus about his Mid West rotary engined version. He said the engine was OK, but egt's were too high (over 1000 deg!) for use in the Chevvron.
The Chevvron was a good tourer with a cruise of about 70 kt, roughly the same as a Shadow, but takeoff and landing were 'heart in mouth' jobs; climbout at 40 kts and flap limiting speed 50 kts for the approach, and believe me you needed to use the flaps as it was easy to flare into ground effect, then you'd float and float and.........

[BristolScout]

Chevvron.

Can you elaborate on 'upward-moving flaps'? I'm intrigued.

[chevvron]

Basically they're called flaps but operated like spoilers, but they're not really spoilers 'cos being at the trailing edge, there's no lift producing surface behind them over which to 'spoil' lift! They move upwards ie opposite direction to 'normal' flaps thus creating drag and decreasing angle of attack.

[airborne_artist]

There's a Chevvron with trailer on Afors (http://www.afors.com/index.php?page=adview&adid=8579&imid=0) for £8500. Not mine, but I'd like it...

[AlphaSierra]

Chevvron,

Defunct? Has Halton Microlight Club closed?

[AlphaSierra]

I was looking at that Chevvron on AforS yesterday. Always been tempted. It ticks every box for me - cheapish, two seats, mid wing, high aspect ratio and reasonable glide angle, and de-riggable. Hands off! :)

The question is, how does it handle, and how well does it soar? Is it any good for cross country soaring? As you might be able to tell I'm looking for the opinion of glider pilots as well as microlight pilots.

Should I pursue one or would I be disappointed?

[chevvron]

There were two clubs at Halton at one time; the Ridgerunners on which many RAF personnel learned to fly spawned the RAF Halton Microlight Club, the two having entirely seperate administration and funding systems.
Ridgerunners started with a Thruster, then an AX3 and even attracted Paul Dewhurst as CFI. Then after a spell with two AX 3s, 3 or 4 Chevvrons were purchased and the AX 3s sold. This club sadly folded in early '97, but the RAF Halton Microlight Club 'soldiers' on.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I flew with them for a few years, mostly on a syndicated Spectrum - lovely little aeroplane, although sadly very few around nowadays.

G

[The Flying Pram]

What's the Twinstar like to fly?

I have no personal experience but it's a high wing tail dragger with 2 seats side by side. The engine is mounted above and behind the wing, so it has a high thrust line and means that applying power tends to push the nose down. I'm sure I've seen a write up in one of the mags. I will have search and see if I can find it.
There are some photo's here. (http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?aircraft_genericsearch=Kolb%20Twinstar&distinct_entry=true)

[BristolScout]

Pram.

Thanks for the pictures and I'll be really grateful if you do unearth the write-up. The vis from the cockpit looks fantastic.

[noble50]

Hello there. I'm new to this, and have read this post with interest - however, I disagree on several points.

The Snowbird was developed over 7 years; it was 5 years before the first one was sold. The design was tested to within an inch of it's life, and it passed and outstripped every specification that the CAA required.
The propellor rpm is related to the reduction gear, not the engine rpm.
The LED ASI was incorporated to keep the gross weight down, and anybody replacing the instruments could probably exceed the maximum weight for a microlight.
I disagree with the statement that the spoilers require no rudder. I also disagree that your remark 'as a result the aircraft is designed with a glossy underpowered rudder, so has no crosswind capability' . I was able to successfully land a mark 2 Snowbird from a starting position of 90 degrees 200ft off the ground with no spoilers (this is the secondary effect of the rudder). I also landed a Snowbird in Ireland with a 90 degree 30 knot crosswind behind an F 16.

[Ultra long hauler]

I've got a 1/10th share in an old Thruster TST which I'm very fond of.


Nice little plane, that Thruster……….reminds me of mine:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3820316/Screenshot%202011-04-19%20om%2019.25.17.jpg

It´s a Genesis, I think there are only very few flying around, still.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3820316/Screenshot%202011-04-19%20om%2019.26.15.jpg

Here´s a small movie for downloading.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3820316/Take%20Off%20Anconcito.AVI


Kai Manuia!

###Ultra Long Hauler###

[rans6andrew]

I would recommend the Rans S6. I have one, so I would say that. Look out for one with 2 stroke Rotax, Even the 503 (like ours) gives good performance and will stretch to touring if that is what want to do. 582 power gives the best combination of power and weight carrying capacity We have been abroad in ours every year since I got my licence in 2003. Cheap to maintain, handling is easy, 70mph cruise, good cockpit space if you are tall, some luggage space. Looks like a "real" aeroplane. It can be folded in 35 mins but I would not want to trailer it regularly. You need to keep it somewhere dark when not in use to protect the dacron from UV.

Rans6.....

[m4media]

Hi BristolScout

I dont think you can get much better value for money than flying the XAir!

I have one which is now up for sale (I am getting a share in a Rans based just three miles from my house) and it is the must fun to fly.

Funnily enough I trained on the C42 at Swansea (with Ash) and between the two aircraft, the C42 may be newer and more "plane" like but I have a bigger grin when I fly the XAir with its Rotax 582.

For bimbling around the gower its a lot of fun! If you want a close up look at one, feel free to drop me a message.

[dstevens]

The Snowbird is alive and well, under new ownership and soon to emerge back in to daylight!!!

Based in Gloucestershire, back-to-basics flying in a UK manufactured aircraft......very exciting!!!

See: Welcome - Snowbird Aviation (http://www.snowbirdaviation.co.uk/)

[dstevens]

Oh, and as for "buying a Dynamic".......ha ha ha ha ha.....a joke, surely? :ugh: