Flying in Quebec - Don't speak French

[Bral11]

Would going over there to train for CPL/IR from the UK without speaking any French be as stupid as it sounds?

Have others done it?

I'm just going through my options at the moment with Toronto 'winning the race'. I have been looking at Cargair however if speaking French is an issue ill rule out Quebec!

I think I know the answer to my own question although if I don't ask I won't get anywhere.

Thanks in advance!
Bral

[rwethereyet]

Bonjour Bral11,

I trained over 20 years ago in the Montreal area and am a native of Quebec. I met students from all over the planet including a few Englishmen and they had no problems whatsoever. Transport Canada which is the equivalent of your UK CAA ,offers bilingual services and you have access to everything in English. Therefore French will not be an issue.....good luck to you whatever path you choose.....
Cheers,
RWTY:)

[PosClimb]

Just say "tabernak" a lot and they'll think you're pure laine...

Just remember that what French you may have learned in school will be useless in Quebec.

The Quebecois speak kinda like a French version of Ebonics...

[RA-DOME]

Hilarious what people will write... anyhow, I have lived in Montreal my whole life, and trained here at the same airport as Cargair, and never needed french (for aviation) until I got my first job.
Albeit I am bilingual, but for the flying portion there will always be an english speaking instructor, the books as you know are all english words, and ATC is bilingual. After a little while you'll pick up the other language quite easily.

Personally Montreal is where it's at, and Cargair likes to give their students jobs afterwards, so that's something to look for.

PM me if you'd like specifics.

[Bral11]

Thanks for the quick replys everyone! Will keep it in mind, im actually off to Toronto at the end of may to visit some relatives however I will be checking out some flight schools while im there!

I'm looking forward to it at although Cargair and the JAA ATPL course is very attractive!

[Carrier]

English is the official and accepted language of world aviation. This is the only language that should be used for aviation so that all users will be able to understand. There have been a number of crashes due to use of a local language that some users were unable to understand. A mid-air crash between a BA airliner and another aircraft over the former Yugoslavia comes to mind. The use of French in Quebec is a reckless disregard of aviation safety. If you are in the air there, whether as crew or pax, you are at an increased risk of being in a mid-air crash or other disaster. Use of French in aviation in Quebec should be discontinued for safety.

I must add that I have flown over many decades in South Africa, a country that is fully bilingual as against Canada’s purely regional use of other than English, and I never heard anyone communicating in Afrikaans. Obviously South Africans have more of a safety culture and are more responsible than Canadians! Canucks lack the guts to stand up for aviation safety and demand that only English be used in Canadian aviation.

[breguet]

Canada, and that includes Quebec, has one of the best safety record in aviation. I have been flying in Europe, Asia, and in North, Central and South America and the use of the local language has never been an issue. In the USA, they are very concerned with runway incursions and, as I recall, the USA has, for now, only one official language: english. Finally Flight Safety programs in Canada, including Quebec, are amongst the best...

[rwethereyet]

Hey Carrier,

OK....I'll take the bite and discuss your outrageous statements about Quebec and Canada:cool:...... I don't really know your background but from what you are stating looks like you have not been around the world much. I too have flown in South Africa and trained on the 747 with SAA but would not say that South African is less safety conscious than Canada. Are the French more dangerous than others because they speak French in French airspace!? Are the Spanish also dangerous?! What about the Germans!? Hopefully you are not too thick to understand this:hmm:.....
Enlighten me as to how many mid air crashes there have been in Quebec which were related to the French language!?!?:confused:. I would suggest that you educate yourself prior to making such statements about Quebec and Canadian aviation....;) mon osti de tabernak....

Cheers,
RWTY

[Obbie]

I will not say that Canadian airspace is unsafe. It is one of the safest.

But as a pilot that goes into YQB on a regular basis, ie weelky.

I find that my situational awareness is greatly reduced in the YQB
control zone because of the mix in languages. I am usually the lone
english speaking aircraft with 4 or 5 others speaking french, and I have
no idea where they are or what they are doing.

And the guys in the YQB tower are preloaded to be pissed off if you
make an issue of it.

Waiting in position to T/O, the tower guy finally came back to us after a
very long french transmission, and cleared us for T/O.

My partner asked about the position of the A/C that the tower guy had just
spoken with in french.

He was told, "you worry about flying your plane, and I will worry about controlling the aircraft"

Totally unprofessional, but quite typical of the French and their language
attitude. It was more important to him to try and make the language
not appear to be a safety issue, than to provide information to a requesting
flight crew.

But hey......that's why we love Quebec:ugh:

[PosClimb]

He was told, "you worry about flying your plane, and I will worry about controlling the aircraft"

Totally unprofessional, but quite typical of the French and their language
attitude.

Next time he says that, reply:

Ostie! Baise-moué l’ail, tabernak!

[Carrier]

Quote: “...........but would not say that South African is less safety conscious than Canada. “

Huh???? Who said or implied that SA is less safety conscious than Canada? If anybody attributes that to me on the basis of my post above then they need to reread and COMPREHEND that post or have a friend explain it to them.


This is not just a language or local politics issue, it is also a SAFETY issue. 176 died in the crash between a BA Trident and a DC-9 on 10 September 1976. A major contributing factor to this mid-air crash was: “The controller was speaking in Croatian to the Yugoslavian plane, which meant that the Trident crew was deprived of information that might have saved their lives.”

Similar concerns have been posted on this and other boards in the past, particularly about the use of French by controllers and pilots in France. Others are unable to understand and lose situational awareness, to the detriment of safety.

There have been other crashes and near misses worldwide because of the use of other than English. Should more be deliberately risked for local political reasons or should everything reasonably possible be done to remove unnecessary risks and improve aviation safety? When it comes to aviation one’s ability in languages other than English is irrelevant as for SAFETY only English should be used worldwide in aviation.

It is a sad commentary on present day Soviet Canuckistan that political expediency takes precedence over aviation SAFETY and common sense. Having said that, I will agree with a poster above that Canadian airspace is one of the safest. However, that safety is degraded in Quebec by the use of French purely for political expediency. This can and should be remedied without delay. Flight crews, the travelling public and (as demonstrated at Lockerbie) those on the ground deserve better.

[gumbi]

Bral11..... Maaannnnnnnnn....did you ever open up a can of worms!

[Bral11]

Tell me about it, I didn't mean to start a domestic! :eek:

@obbie; thankyou and would you still recommend flying there for an English speaker?

[rwethereyet]

Hey Bral11,

Flying in Quebec will be an enjoyable experience and I assure you that the "French" controllers are just as professional and courteous as anywhere else in the world.....but as you will learn to know, there will always be an a-hole in these posts... and obviously a wannabe Canadian from some remote hole in South African airspace but hey,just take the good with the one bad....et bon voyage....and enjoy the trouble free skies and landscape of Quebec...:ok:.Good luck in your budding career......

Cheers,
RWTY:)

[RatherBeFlying]

It takes some serious ear training to understand Quebecois. I've met native French speakers who've compimented me on my French who tell me they can't understand the Quebec dialect.

And I have trouble following Cockney and Glaswegian:}

If you have the very good fortune to make friends with a Quebecoise, she will teach you;)

[evansb]

Ah yes, the Quebec problem. Separate ATC union, separate pension plan from the rest of Canada. NAZI-like language and immigration laws that even the French wouldn't consider, but they do want the equalization payments from the have-provinces like Alberta and Ontario. They will never admit to being a have-not province, but it is not really a province, it is more like a huge region incorporating two city-states, Montreal and Quebec City, and the vast, sparsely populated remainder, which is considered an economic and cultural back-water by many sociologists. Montrealers generally consider themselves culturally superior to the rest of North Americans, despite a rather bizarre record of racist and mysoginistic crimes in the city. Quebec City, which relys heavily on the American tourist trade, loves nothing better than to belittle Americans behind their backs. Quebec wants to be a sovereign state, yet they want to retain the Canadian dollar as currency, and they want the federal government of Canada to protect their shores, and administer their northern and arctic region, including the administration of Indian Affairs. Quebec, the 'crazy aunt' of confederation. We love her, but no one has the fortituide to tell her she is crazy. And no one sees fit to let her on her own, fearing her demise.

[rwethereyet]

Evansb.....and what does your post have to do with someone wanting to learn how to fly!?:rolleyes: Or are you just a Quebec wanna be?!:p

Cheers,
RWTY:)

[cheeky cough]

Good post evansb, you have really summarized the culture accurately.

I lived in Quebec City for 8 years.

I do not feel unsafe in Quebec City or Montreal airspace. The controllers are very good. It is in the uncontrolled regions where a flight service specialist is translating position reports to an english and french aircraft near a control zone. You are both closing at 9 miles a minute wanting to land at same airport. If FSS guy is poor in english or slow on the radio, then it is very uncomfortable.

I think it is the ATC system that is the most important thing. Some countries not only have poor english speakers , but have poor Air Traffic Controllers.
I often think of the Tenerife accident and the poor communication between everyone.

Good luck in your decision on where to train. There are many excellent airports in the Toronto area where one can learn.

:)

[Quebecer]

EvansB

J'ai rarement vu quelqu'un d'aussi raciste et condescendant que ça. Pas surprenant avec l'endroit d'ou tu viens. En plus, dans la cinquantaine, tu n'as sûrement pas reçu l'éducation te permettant de comprendre que dans ce beau pays qu'est le Canada il y a plus que de se promener en camion avec un chapeau de cowbou sur la tête. Écoute Lucky Luke, j'ai fait 10 ans de militaire et j'ai dû m'adapter, apprendre l'anglais c'était une question de survie dans cet institution. Si au moins on te demandait de parler en français sur les ondes quand tu voles au Québec, je comprendrais quMil pourrait y avoir un problème de sécurité. Ce n'est pas le cas et les controleurs parlent un anglais qui est très bien ici. Si t'es pas capable de comprendre qu'il existe une nation qui s'appelle le Québec (C'est ton Harper chéri qui l'a dit) et qu'au Québec la langue officielle est le français, et bien continue à chiquer du tabac et à t'amuser avec ton lasso mon chum.

Translation for all the albertains red-neck who agree with EvansB: Go f***k yourself, you ignorant racist.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I have flown for many years in Quebec all over the province I am unilingual English and never was I treated like an outsider by the people with whom I worked and lived with.

Most of the bitterness between the two different cultures has been formented by raw politics the people are no different than anywhere else.

As to the language issue I feel inferior not being able to speak both on a personal level.

[gumbi]

Quebecer: keep your head up...don't fall in evansb's trap, we're smarter than that...

Chuck Ellsworth: you're a true gentleman, sir, as always.

bral11: please don't consider unproductive comments like evansb's when making your choice, I'd say people like him are a minority throughout Canada.

[rwethereyet]

Very nice post Quebecer:D!! Dommage que le pauvre ignorant d'Albertain ne puisse pas comprendre:(.....
After all, aren't the official languages of Canada both English & French!? Je suis heureux de pouvoir m'exprimer dans les deux langues.....I'm happy to be able to express myself in both languages....and since when is learning a second language a detriment!? Evansb should get out more and see the real world....or at least the real Canada:cool:.....like I said, he's probably just a Quebecois wannabe,ha!!:}......Great comments Gumbi & Chuck E.....
Cheers,
RWTY

[meaw]

EvansB,

I guess you find it unsafe to fly in all of South America where most acft are transmiting in spanish?What about the spanish Caribean islands?
You wouldn't fly in France or Spain or the rest of Europe for that matter?
How about Asia or Africa?
Get my point?You're either a small timer who doesn't get out much or you're just a racist.Either way I pitty you.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I may not understand the language all that well...but I sure understood the French girls.....the universal language. :E:

[tsgas]

The universal language for pretty women is $

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Not any more they want Euros now the dollar isn't worth much anymore.

[Quebecer]

I take back the 'alberta red-neck' comment as I meant to shut evansb trap and not insulting anybody else...I guess I fell in the despising-easy-to-come-up-whith-narrow-minded-comments myself...Oh well, no more ppruning after I had a few.:=

Cheers,

Quebecer

[Quebecer]

with, not whith

[Chuck Ellsworth]

you mean avec.:E

[flaps2billion]

Ok evansb,

1) your ingorant & you know nothing about Quebec.

2) it's just a minority that wants to seperate! Just like the minority in Alberta that has expressed their wishes to become a sovereign state. I love how these people think they are special just because they sit on oil!

3) Montreal is culturaly superior to your Yahoo land! Oh geez you have Calgary, which is only a semi **** hole:hmm:

-----

You will have no problems with the language barriers. Most also speak English in Montreal as well.

Cargair has just improved their yhu base to accomodate international students. Their training is very good & affordable!

Good luck!

[tbaylx]

Quebcer,

That about sums up the issues with Quebec...they think they are a seperate country with their own rules, and well that kind of pisses off the rest of Canada. A little less nose in the air holier than thou bit and maybe we'd get along better.

The point being made, and it is a valid one, is that it reduces english speaking pilots situational awareness when aircraft communicate in French in an ATC environment. It is not necessary, and simply complicates the communication process. Since you spent 10 years in the military and learned english i would assume you'd understand that. Any other pilot who wants to fly must also learn and speak english regardless of where he comes from in the world, like it or not its the official language. So why is Quebec special yet again? I guess they feel like they have something to prove..sort of like the silly language law.

All over Canada we tiptoe around french politics, trying desperatly not to offend our sensitive quebec neighbours, while the whole time they go out of the way to try and offend the rest of canada. if for one moment someone calls then on that, they drop to the ice and flop around screaming like they just got slashed and are looking for a penalty....guess some are just a bit tired of that status quo.

In any case the end point is simply if you don't speak the language that is supposed to be spoken in aviation, then you reduce SA of pilots that don't understand the local dialect and that reduces the margin of safety wether or not it has caused an accident or not..no point to it at all.

[gabon flyer 2]

Hello Aviators!!!

I m an ex cargair flight instructor and i ve been living in montreal area a bit more than 4 years....i guess you will understand that english isn t my native language but i can tell you that you can easily be trained in english in all majors flight school through Quebec....
Montreal is a very attractive city ; the west and north part of the city are almost only for english speakers.
Keep in mind that Canada have 2 officials languages....so all administrations will be able to help you there.
Did you already tlak to R .Laporte otherwise you can also ask and try to talk to Josee Prud homme Vice president or even better to Loraine Dumont CFI...as far as i m concern she was a bit hard to talk with but she s honest!!!
Hope those details would help you to sort it out
you take it easy and have safe ldgs
Cheers

[Tintin]

tbaylx and all being for montreal and yes quebecois I'm glad of my roots and my culture and will defend it. but it's been close to 15 years now that i'm flying around and for safety sake only english should be use in the air.

That being said Tbaylx the silly language law that you refering to, have nothing to do with being SPECIAL or having something to prove mon ami. It's simply a way to survive, we are 6 millions french speaking surround by 400 millions english. We need 2.1 baby per couple to keep a flat demographic and as you know we are far from that. So the solution is immigration. Now if you come here from Romania, South America, China, ect and you have to learn a language they, unless there is a SILLY LAW who protect our language, will learn or use english. So in 2 to 3 generation gone will be that culture. That along yours build that great place that a call home and miss dearly..

We should talk more and respect our difference there is still people in quebec who love canada. but it's with comment like that that you give munition to those who want to separate.

If you come to montreal PM me i will invite you home for a beer and i will show you around town. Then you might understand the concept of societe distincte.

BTW in Richmond BC Richwong i should say, soon they will have to make a silly law also to protect your tongue as well

[BeechNut]

I have been flying in Quebec for many years. I am fluent in French and English so I have no situational awareness issues. In controlled airspace there won't be any problems. You may encounter issues with unilingual French pilots at smaller uncontrolled fields in the hinterlands, but you'll find that if you come on the frequency in English, most French pilots will understand that you probably can't speak French, and will attempt to communicate their position/intentions in English, as broken as it may be some times.

It would help to learn a few situational terms so you can at least decipher a French position report around an airfield and keep out of each other's way:

"Vent arrière" means on the downwind leg (add "droite" and it means a right downwind); "long-vent arrière" means "extended downwind", and "mi-vent arrière" is "mid-downwind"
"Base" (prounounced baze in French) means as you guessed, base leg
"approche finale" I think is pretty easy to sort out; prefix that with "courte" and it means "short final", "longue" means of course long.
"À la verticale des installations" means directly overhead the field;
"En vent traversier" means the crosswind leg (when flying bump-and-goes).

A bit of number recognition helps; we use "milles" or "milles nautiques" in French which means "miles" or "nautical miles" (to be proper French it we should really say "milles marins"; Quebecers are a great bunch of people but we can and do murder the language considerably), so if you can say up to 10 in French, you can understand a position report of someone who is "5 milles en rapprochement" which means 5 miles inbound, and maybe thousands, so you can interpret altitudes.

Oh and Est is East, Ouest is West, Nord is North, and Sud is South.

I'm willing to bet if you live here long enough, you'll pick up the essentials pretty quick. And may I emphatically recommend a French girlfriend while you are here; not only will you learn the nuts and bolts of the language that much faster, it will be that much more fun because they are the best-looking and most warm-blooded women in Canada! ;)

One last bit of advice, and this goes for any VFR flyer (which a student will be), keep yer head out of the cockpit.

[sec 3]

Beech has a few good points. I am an anglophone who worked in Quebec for 7 years and agree that with a little effort you can learn the aviation terminology used in La Belle Province. If you're flying with a french speaker ask him or her to help you learn and I'm sure they will oblige. The list of terms is not that extensive so it can be done. Besides France, you'd be surprised in how many other countries in the world where they speak french on the radio. Many countries in Africa and even in the middle east( lebanon) use french in aviation.

[Tintin]

Sec sorry on that one but apart from us , France, Morroco, Algeria and a little in Tunisia noboby use french on R/T.

As a madder of fact all europe exept France and Spain use only english, some time in Italy you will ear Italian R/T on the ground for slot improvement or the latest football score that all. Even German speak english in Germany

Asia all R/T are english exept Russia and China maybe because they have been isolated so much and still use the meters

Africa everywhere I have been english apart some country of the Margreb

Middle east only english appart some greeting and politeness even Lebanon

South America thats another story..We have 3 guys from there who just fail the ICAO test thats sad there a good bunch

We all have one goal safety, on smaller vfr aerodrome i dont see any problem. But
in a major intl airport thats another story. Few years ago after being clear to line up the rwy in Pudong my FO who hapend to speak chinesse told me to wait there, guess what 3 milles final was a china eastern A330 who have been clear to land....is TCAS was off and the vis was reduce there was no way we could have seen him on final..Not all ATC are as good as UK no even in the USA.

When I start flying i was proud to speak french wherever I could... Only monkey dont change Faut croire

[BelArgUSA]

To my Canadian friends and other "francophones"...
xxx
I was born in Brussels, Belgium, therefore, can be considered as francophone yet most of my career was in USA or with US air carriers, and now in Argentina since 15 years, meaning that I am fully proficient in the "massacre" of 3 (or even 4) languages, as you can see on some of my threads in the forum.
xxx
For me, since starting to learn about airplanes, and learning to fly (first in Belgium, then USA) all has been in English. And yes, I use French at times, and obviously Spanish. Of course I favor English for ATC purpose, anywhere, but I have to survive in different environments.
xxx
As much of my English is "American" (when I go to the UK, they think that I am a California boy), but I know that in London, I should say "hire a car" rather than "rent a car", and should write "pilot licence" rather than "license", same thing applies with the French language. There are notable differences between French as it is spoken in France, or in the Province of Québec.
xxx
If you are a Frenchman, Belgian, Swiss, or African, beware of the "Français du Canada" as it is spoken by ATC people there. Long ago, I once used French while on approach and landing at Dorval, and soon realised that I had problem to understand their "aeronautical French language"... Dorval or Mirabel "French" is not the same as the one used in Roissy or Casablanca.
xxx
When being "social" with the people in Montréal, hotel, restaurants or in the streets, I adore speaking French, and they immediately know that my French is not "Québecois". The vocabulary is often different.
xxx
If you fly in international airspace (and for me, Dorval is international) I stick to English. Now, if you want to use French for VFR on small airfields, go for it but think about people that will not understand a word you say.
xxx
Now, as I am an "adopted Latino", you can criticize me, as I often use Spanish, in South America with ATC (and even position reports in Portuguese in Brazilian airspace) but if I hear an American, Canadian, European or Japanese airplane on the frequency, I immediately switch to English with ATC as a courtesy to these guys. I am sure they have no interest if I inquire about the latest "football/soccer" Argentina games with Resistencia Radio, as I myself know nothing about the NFL. Dont you worry, if you are United Airlines, I will give you the latest ceiling and visibility and trend, for Buenos Aires if you need any help in "plane English"...
xxx
I am a training manager, here in Argentina, and insist that all "my guys" use their best ICAO English with ATC, but we, foreigners, besides our native languages, have to learn to speak English, then, why is it, that if you are a native of the English language cannot at least learn the basics of one or two major languages used in many other nations. Have you ever looked at your own spelling of your own language (English) here in this forum...? A real disgrace, at times. When I lived in USA, this "Brussels Sprout" had to help some Americans to spell their language correctly. Decent, and descend is NOT the same thing, even if it sounds the same, for heaven's sake...
xxx
When you guys go to college/university, studying physics and aeronautical sciences, why not take courses in, i.e. French or Spanish. I believe that any Canadian should learn at least some French. Belgians have to learn French and Dutch/Flemish (besides English, and sometimes German), and the Swiss have to suffer with French, German and even Italian, in addition of English. Or is it that Anglo-Saxons have a mental atrophy to study languages...?
xxx
Let us clean up our act, in the skies... and on the ground, we can have a beer together and laugh at our respective language differences and accents. When I am in Madrid, the folks there are pulling their hair with my Buenos Aires dialect. As a Belgian native, I am ashamed of the "language politics" of my country, as you Canadians should be about yours.
xxx
:)
Besides all that, "Happy contrails" -

[Bral11]

Thanks for your help everyone!

I have quite abit to think about, im considering PRI Academy in Ontario at the moment. Im going over to Toronto in may for 3 weeks so will go to some schools around there to check them out, looking forward to it! :)

Thanks again:ok:
Bral

[flaps2billion]

That about sums up the issues with Quebec...they think they are a seperate country with their own rules, and well that kind of pisses off the rest of Canada. A little less nose in the air holier than thou bit and maybe we'd get along better.


tbaylx....you are obviously ignorant & don't know much about the situation!

For years Quebecers wanted to be known as a distinctive society. Remember that they have their own language, history, culture & religion.
& they should be!

Unfortunatly, English Canadians have never tried to understand that. Their lack of understanding was also one of the reasons that created constitutional problems!

Intolerance towards French Canadians has given Quebecers a sense of alienation towards the rest of Canada!
Check the history books! They had their attachment with France until they were conquered...
Thanks to "la survivance" or "the resistance", they have managed to protect their culture from being assimilated!

Why can't the rest of Canada learn French also? Or at least offer more Bi-Lingual schools?

Why not?.......intolerance towards our second national language?

[Carrier]

Quote: “Check the history books!”

General Wolfe won the Battle of Quebec and united Canada under English rule! The defeated French in Quebec were not evicted like the Acadians. As a GENEROUS gesture to the defeated French, they were allowed to remain and use their own language as well as English and Napoleonic law within Quebec. There is no historical case for the use of French in the rest of Canada. This is something that in recent times has been foisted upon the rest of Canada at considerable expense by the Liberal/Quebec Party.

Quebec has deliberately driven out businesses and anglophones with its language policies and deterred new businesses. Examples: Canadian Pacific Railway HQ now in Calgary, Shell Oil Canada HQ now in Calgary, Sun Life Insurance HQ now in Toronto, Ingersoll Rand plant in Ontario instead of Quebec. It then has the cheek to plead poverty and absorb vast sums of money from the rest of Canada through the Federal government equalisation payments.

As a further example of what is going on, just a few days ago I was listening to CBC Radio One profiling the case of the Irish pub in Montreal. This has been in operation for ten years. The language Nazis have recently started to persecute the operators because some "signs" are not bilingual. They are not complaining about functional signs such as the way to the bogs (les ****eurs?) but want old metal Guinness signs that are only available in English and are hung on the walls as part of the DECOR of an IRISH pub to be bilingual English and French. They are prepared to destroy the business and the jobs that it provides over this. This is how stupid the Quebec government is!

Equalisation payments via the federal government should be eliminated. Taxpayers in productive provinces should not be required to subsidise parasite provinces that have deliberately destroyed jobs and made their businesses uncompetitive by their negative fiscal and language policies.

In addition to the above, the cost of bilingualism has been imposed upon all Canadians and has contributed to making the country less competitive. The message to Quebec (and some other provinces and territories) should be “Pay your way and contribute to Canada instead of being a drain on the country.”

I have no objection to Quebec Province and individual Quebecois using French as well as English AT THEIR OWN COST in Quebec (apart from aviation) but cannot support such lunacies as the pub case mentioned above. There should be no cost for any of this to the rest of Canada. Quebec residents should use English in the rest of Canada. They have to use it anyway. You can be sure that when Bombardier sells CRJs to some American air operator or railway rolling stock to New York City that negotiations and documents are in English!

Residents of Quebec should be grateful that they are there and that they are able to use French as well as English and have Napoleonic law in Quebec. Stop pushing for more and trying to make the whole country dance to and pay for strictly provincial issues.

I must add that over the years I have known many francophones from Quebec and they have all been very pleasant people. It’s similar to Americans and the USA. As individuals Americans are great and generous people but the USA is probably the most unpopular country in the world. Quebec makes the same mistakes. As a consequence it has alienated vast parts of Canada (the West particularly) and contributed to Western separatist movements such as Westfed and the Western Canada Concept.

It’s an unfortunate fact that in Canada any attempt to have an intelligent and sensible debate on Quebec, French language and Indian and Eskimo issues (another $9 billion pa for the so-called first nations) draws a torrent of irrational abuse!

[sec 3]

Hey carrier, who were the ' Arcadians' ? Seems you don't know history as well as you think:confused:

[Tintin]

Quote: “Check the history books!” As a GENEROUS gesture to the defeated French

I'm not so shure about this one mon ami, it was political move not a generous gesture because not long after that the french and the loyalist fought together the american and drive them back home. Thats was a good exemple of coalision and understanding, An exemple for our generation. We tend to have a very selective memory on some issue.

As for the law we are under british law with some napoleonic act or amendment here thats all.

As for the moron in the gouverment who apply those law and who cant read between the line are sometime make me ashame, and you are not immune of those on your side.

Dont forget our grands parents generation the only job they could expect was agricultural or factory work because the where french speaking, la caisse populaire ( a bank) was start to help those to get credit because before they could'nt even have access to that. Almost in the line of the Bremeen bank in Bangladesh. From those folk, grow the generation wich are now on power..Did you know the Air Canada before the 70's was not hiring anybody with a french name!! Still in the 90's rare were the french hire at CAnada 3000 or english at Air Transat and the story goes and goes..Like kiking us out of the confederation unilateraly..It take long time to patch the wound.

Please the time have change now lets not make te same mistake lets sit and understand each other.

We on both side have extremism but they are a minority and the one who are with some history talk around a few cold one understand, most of the time but you better have done work homework and have good arguments.

Carrier you do what you want but by saying thing like
quote... the cost of bilingualism has been imposed upon all Canadians and has contributed to making the country less competitive. The message to Quebec (and some other provinces and territories) should be “Pay your way and contribute to Canada instead of being a drain on the country.” show a complite ignorance of the political ramification they are a very SIMPLE thing to say. Notting is white or black on those issue its a give and take..

A suivre........ got a flight to do
a+

[BelArgUSA]

First of all, the " Arcadians " should be spelled " Acadians " -
Then - people who fight "guerres linguisitiques" are as disgusting as racists.
xxx
Cultures of the past should be respected - both sides.
The Québecois "who want Québec Libre" are as ridiculous as the "Flamingants" of Belgium.
xxx
United - you are strong and respected.
Look at Yugoslavia, today. What a mess. The last one on the list is Kosovo.
Wars for language, for religion... you all are ri-di-cu-lous...
Then it is the Sunnis and the Shiites... or the Tutsis and the Hutus...
Are you Canadians that low...?
xxx
I see Jehovah Witnesses banging on my door next few years with a bible and AK-47s.
Here in Argentina, we want the Falklands...
Conquer the islands with rubber boots, for the hind legs of the cute sheeps.
I suggest the ones with horns - holding handles works better.
The Welsh and Basques of Patagonia have wet dreams of conquest.
xxx
Ridiculous in my book -
:)
Happy contrails

[tbaylx]

Nope, not ignorant i've heard all the reasons Quebec thinks it should get special treatment..i just don't happen to agree. There are many distinct cultures within canada that speak their own language, and yet Quebec is the only one that seems to need laws and special teatment to keep their culture.

Everyone else manages fine in Canada so should Quebec....and before you spout off about ignorance again..i lived in Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City and a few other places that had large french communities, and am bilingual as well so spare me the red neck albertan arguments before you get started. Just tired of having to tiptoe around those that get offended if you even think of suggesting Quebec could learn to play nice with the rest of us and it would make the country a better place.

The point originally made and its a valid one is that french RT decreases situational awareness of pilots that don't speak french and hence reduces safety..no need for that, keep it english on the radios. Simple.

[Carrier]

As well as wrongly spelling Acadians I also incorrectly spelt Guinness. Nobody picked that up so there can’t be too many boozers viewing this thread. Both errors have been corrected. My apology to the spelling and grammar fundis!

Arcadians in Canada? In a way, yes. They are also known as hoodies and similar epithets and hang out in video arcades. That’s fine as long as they stay there but on too many occasions when they have emerged from their arcades it has been to swarm (mug) some senior (old age pensioner) in a shopping mall.

[BelArgUSA]

Again - it spells A C A D I A N
For heaven's sakes - is Pprune the gathering of uneducated idiots...?
:)
Happy contrails

[Number2]

BelArgUSA

I think you missed the joke my friend!

[Carrier]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ACADIANS

The Acadians (French: Acadiens) are the descendants of the 17th-century French colonists who settled in Acadia (located in the Canadian Maritime provinces — Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island — and some in the American state of Maine). Although today both Acadians and Québécois are francophone Canadians, Acadia was founded in a geographically separate region from Quebec ("Canada" at this time) leading to their two distinct cultures. The settlers whose descendants became Acadians did not necessarily all come from the same region in France. Those settlers also blended with the Mi'kmaq, a native tribe, and Acadians and their descendants are ethnically tied to these people. Acadian family names have come from many areas in France from the Maillets of Paris to the Leblancs of Normandy. Some Acadian families did not even originate in France; for example the popular Acadian surname 'Melanson' (originally 'Mallinson') has its roots in England, and those with the surname 'Bastrache', 'Basque', or 'Bascom' can find their origin in the Basque Country which is located between France and Spain.
In the Great Expulsion of 1755, around 4000 to 5000 Acadians were deported from Acadia under the direction of British colonial officers and New England legislators and militia; many later settled in Louisiana, where they became known as Cajuns. Later on many Acadians returned to the Maritime provinces of Canada, most specifically New Brunswick. During the British conquest of New France the French colony of Acadia was renamed Nova Scotia (New Scotland).


ACADIAN – singular; ACADIANS – plural!

I referred to Canada’s reduced competitiveness, partly because of the cost of extending French outside of Quebec. Don’t take my word for it. Take a look at Tax Freedom Day on www.fraserinstitute.org and then do a Google search for Tax Freedom Days for different countries. It should shock you to see how uncompetitive Canada has become. Do you want Canada to be competitive or not? Do you want Canada to be reduced to the economic failed state status of somewhere like Argentina or Poland? Are you on Canada’s side or not? As others have inferred, we should all work together for the common good and stop pandering to vocal factions.

As a final observation on countries with more than one official language, to the best of my knowledge all except one have considerable internal friction between the factions and they all incur additional costs (taxes). The only country with more than one language that I have never heard problems about is Switzerland. Perhaps Canadians and their government should investigate how Switzerland manages to achieve this.

[flaps2billion]

Nope, not ignorant i've heard all the reasons Quebec thinks it should get special treatment..i just don't happen to agree. There are many distinct cultures within canada that speak their own language, and yet Quebec is the only one that seems to need laws and special teatment to keep their culture.


I highly doubt you have!

The general attitude towards Franco Canada has always been negative. This dates back to the plains of Abraham!
How would you feel about Franco Canadians if they were the majority & were intolerant towards your minority?

I'm sorry, but there is two sides to the story....

Back to the history books...
Yes, the British did allow the french to keep their civil law, religion, language & culture.
But, their long term goal was to eliminate the franco/catholic culture & assimilate the population.
This eventually failed as the French adopted "la survivance"

Why can't westerners make the French language more acessibile to their children? In Canada we are creating more unlingual people then bilingual!

French is a beautiful language! What is wrong with learning both?
Although I am anglophone, I went to a french emerssion school. I thank my parents everyday for that!

[evansb]

As Canadian as an Acadian, eh? A 1962 Pontiac Acadian Invader no less!
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/62_Acadian_Invader.jpg

[Tintin]

It's good to see that for most of us we can debate anonymously without any lack of respect.

Competitiveness alright lets start with that, as you know in that world of free trade we have create, Canada need to build a knowlege base society so I think if there is something we have to do with the language is to learn more not less dont you think?? If saving taxe for you mean more competitiveness try investing on education.

As for Switzerland I think the fact that nobody conquer anybody, or nobody think he is superior UPPER CANADA or have an inferiority complex LOWER CANADA, have help establish solid base when you do sit on a negociating table or write law.

When you say that we ask for special treatment show that you only take you info from some media because we DONT. What we want is for you to realise that because of our cultural differance we have different priority, goals, or way of doing things. Why will a bureaucrat in ottawa should decide the way we want to finance a project or something?? Our federalism as it is now is a big failure.

For years before Levesque's first referandum, we have fought for liberalism. But the people in Ottawa did **** all. It's because of those failure that the separatism idea grow. Did you that Rene Levesques was before a federal minister, and Bouchard?? Now the west start to wake up, for different reason then us want decentralisation of the power in Canada is that a special treatment????

"quote" There are many distinct cultures within canada that speak their own language, and yet Quebec is the only one that seems to need laws and special teatment to keep their culture.

Dont forget we are not immigrant here our ancestor (yours and mine) have create that country and write the constitution that we are not part of it still now. I'm living abroad now for 8 years and trust me i do not demand anything because i'm a guess here i respect there culture and there language but in Canada i'm HOME

BTW sorry for the bad writing i'm another uneducated idiots...?:}

[saudipc-9]

They had their attachment with France until they were conquered...

Ha Ha thanks for that, I spilled my coffee laughing. Oh, along with that they had their own religion too? Yep I don't think there is a Roman Catholic outside of Quebec.

Hey, I work with alot of Quebecers and enjoy their opinions and company. They are proud of their heritage, as they should be, and all believe without (almost) exception that Quebec and Canada are stronger with each other than not. However, if you think of Canada and as a family and the provinces as kids, then Quebec comes across as the spoilt sister who complains a lot. Complaining is their right but it does get old and the rest of the family eventually stops listening because all that is put forward are complaints and not solutions.
Anyway I like Quebec especially the women and the night clubs in Montreal.:ok:

[20driver]

I grew up in Anglo Montreal and now live in the States.
One of my biggest shocks was going to Germany after high school and heading to the local high school hop.
They served beer at the dance! They other shock was every kid in the room spoke German, French and English. I was embarrassed that they spoke better French and English than my French alone. The standard expectation was you come from Canada, why don't you speak French fluently?

The future is knowledge based industry and learning languages is a big part of that. It is as much for the attitude it brings than the specific skills. The sad thing is so many in Quebec and Canada have some perverse hairy chested pride in being a mono lang. Dumb and dumber. This is an attitude in the states as well. It is already biting the americans very big time. The days of speaking English only as being OK are already over. Sure every one else learns English but you show your limitations when you are English only. You just look dumb and believe me many Canadians don't come across better than Americans on this one.

As for the oh so smart Albertans, yea you were really brilliant for laying down all that oil but it will run out. I seem to remember an awfull lot of federal policies that were drafted around protecting western farmers. Try looking up Crows nest pass rates for a start.

20driver

[Cowtown Pilot]

I must say I have enjoyed reading this thread and the perspectives it has given me in comparison to my own.

I have been flying to Montreal from my base here in Texas nearly every month for over 6 years. Initially I was somewhat apprehensive of the culture and language. With my southern Texas accent I assumed that the locals would not be very tolerant of my kind. I couldn't have been more wrong. A great city with great people. Now can someone tell what tabernak means?

[BeechNut]

Now can someone tell what tabernak means?

In French Canada, cussing is not body parts, or, umm, certain physiological phenomena, but is rater based on religious terms, particularly sacred church objects, communion, etc.

"Tarbarnak/tarbernak/tabarnacle", is actually slanged "tabernacle" which refers to the Tabernacle in which the reserved Eucharist is kept in a Roman Catholic Church.

You'll come across some others, like "câlisse" which is "calice" which is the chalice for the communion wine, "ciboire" which is the ciborium, "Hostie" which is the Host, "sacrament", which is what it says, "Chrissse", which of course is equivalent to the anglo JC.

Of course we do share a few in common with you. "Merde" (sh!t) comes to mind, and as with you, often the famous last word on the CVR just before the impact...

Beech

[flaps2billion]

Ha Ha thanks for that, I spilled my coffee laughing. Oh, along with that they had their own religion too? Yep I don't think there is a Roman Catholic outside of Quebec.

ok Saudipc-9...I see that your not a very smart person, or you just don't know history.
Canadian history! It starts before the british came here!

Chapter 1:
There was a colony that scretched from the atlantic provinces, to the great lakes & down towards the midwest.
It was called New-France.......woooooooooowwww

Chapter 2:
War between the England & France in the mid 18th century. Britian sends a large naval force to the colonies.

Although the French colony was smaller, they were kicking ass. This changed in 1759 on the plains of Abraham, when general Wolfe defeated the stupid Montcalm. 1763, the Treaty of Paris. New france officialy becomes a british colony!


Now do you see how they are a conquered people! Or is the material too hard for you to comprehend?

& yes they kept their religion! Remember that in 1759, the English were all protestant & the French were Catholic.

If you were smart, you would of been able to comprehend the fact that you cannot compare todays religious standing in Canada versus the mid 18th century.:ugh:

[Cowtown Pilot]

Beech, thank you sir! As I am Catholic myself I found that very informative. Not many of us Catholics down here in the southern part of the US, home turf of the Southern Baptist. Now I will go back to drinking my ice water since I gave up all soda's for lent. Cheers!

[BeechNut]

Beech, thank you sir! As I am Catholic myself I found that very informative. Not many of us Catholics down here in the southern part of the US, home turf of the Southern Baptist. Now I will go back to drinking my ice water since I gave up all soda's for lent. Cheers!

You're welcome! I am Catholic too. Gave up beer for lent :(

I'm probably one of the few pilots that sings Gregorian Chant in a choir...

Say a prayer for me, tomorrow is my medical. :}

Beech

[tracker999]

Tintin quote:
"Africa everywhere I have been english apart some country of the Margreb".

...at which you can only add:
Senegal, Mali, Chad, Cameroon, Gabon, the 2 Congo's, Togo, Ivory coast, Mauritania, Niger, Burkina Faso, Central African Republic, Madagascar, Comoros, Djibouti, Benin.
...just for info!

Cheers to my friends from "quelques arpents de neige".:ok:

Tracker

[menard]

Back to the subject.

Into more and more airspaces we now use CPDLC/ADS instead of voice. When on "CPDLC" I have no information on other traffic, unless the ATCO decides it would be necessary for me to know. Situation awareness? What language the ATCO speaks at work.....I don't really care.

When there's a multitude of frequencies for different phases of approach/departure (App. control, Director, Tower freq. for left rwy different than twr freq. for right rwy...etc.etc). You can have an airplane anywhere around you on a different channel. Situation awareness.....Ya right!

[Tintin]

Bon point Menard, but the CPDLC use are where HF voice was, 90% of the time was position report, and who was keeping radio watch on that anyways ..

For the VHF voice on approach difference use of frequency for A/C who are on a different star/sid or rwy just just remove unwanted RT thus improve situational awareness dont you think??

[menard]

In the future, CPDLC/ADS will also be used on non-HF airspaces. (Example, Yangon's airspace, Burma).

My point is:

The fact than another language is used on a freq. is not worst than having other airplanes around you, that you are not aware of, because they're using a different frequency, or CPDLC. Same thing.

[Carrier]

Menard, for some years technology has also supplied the answer to replace the loss of voice based situational awareness or to alleviate its failings: eg TCAS. Do you believe ALL aircraft down to the size of a flying lawnchair untralight should have TCAS and is it fair to make the private owner incur such expense?

[Number2]

I'm sorry but the use of different languages on RT has been a contributory factor in a number of accidents (in the air and on the ground). That is a fact.

Why do French Canadians resort to arrogance, profanity and insults? It doesn't make your point any clearer but it reveals SO much about you!

[Tintin]

hey Number2 if you read a little from the past post appart from you and a few, nobody use arrogance, profanity and insults.

Chill bro

[Number2]

You clearly don't understand how arrogant you appear to the rest of the world then?! (Try posts 19, 30 & 39 for starters.)

Would you prefer it if everyone was bilingual because of Quebec? I found it really frustrating (as did many others) to go to a meeting which was held up because the translation system failed and the French speakers (who were paid an extra premium to be bilingual) refused to continue.

Personnally, IMHO, leave Quebec to be independent. That means truly independent, however, without any support from the rest of Canada. Still want to be independent?


Keep smiling!

[tbaylx]

Menard,

CPDLC is an enroute communication service typically used in remote areas to replace HF. Fair deal.

The dual language communication thing is more of an issue in hi density controlled airspace around airports in terminal areas where having a picture on where you are to other traffic is much more important. Not really comparable for this discussion.

[flaps2billion]

I'm sorry but the use of different languages on RT has been a contributory factor in a number of accidents (in the air and on the ground). That is a fact.

According to who? That is an extremely narrow minded comment!

In France, ATC is provided in English & French.....without a problem. Keep that in mind...

Some Latin American countries also provide bilingual ATC. Correct if I am wrong, but I was told that ATC is bilingual in mainline China.

I fail to see where the problem is?

[menard]

tbaylx

Try LHR approach/Director/tower, or FRA approach/tower.

At peak, nobody from left rwy/right rwy is on the same frequency.

Understand you fly for EK, if we fly together I'll show you. But don't worry, I won't speak french to you, to make communication clear. But if we fly through China, France, or over any other country where another language is used, please don't panic, I'll be there.

Pulling your leg...

menard.

[Number2]

Why would it surprise me that you fail to see the problem........

I refer to my previous post about insults.

By the way, in 2002 ICAO recognised the use of mixed languages in ATC as a contributory factor in runway incursions in the SAM/CAR region. There's a PPT presentation if you Google it. I have to apologise though as it is in English.

So I guess it's ICAO being narrow-minded then?

[gumbi]

this thread is going nowhere...

[Number2]

'this thread is going nowhere...'

Thank you for that valuable and insightful input......:)

[tbaylx]

Menard,

I guess you aren't getting my point...anyway i find it much harder to develop an air picture if i don't know where the aircraft are that are landing at the same airport AND runway that i am...for LHR i could really care less how i fit in with the aircraft on the other runway. I do care how i fit in with the one i will be in conflict with landing on the runway i am using. If they all are speaking the same language then it makes it easier.

I'll take you up on the offer as well, if we fly together you get to do all the radio work in China, India, Cairo and anywhere else i have to get ATC to say again more than once a day. Deal :)

[Nuuk]

Quote "It doesn't make your point any clearer but it reveals SO much about you!"

So if you are Number2, who is Number1?.....Everbody else?

[Carrier]

Quote: “So if you are Number2, who is Number1?”

At least we know who Number Six is.

Nuuk, I suggest you nip round to the nearest video rental store and see if you can obtain a copy of the 1960s TV series “The Prisoner”, starring Patrick McGoohan, particularly the final episode. After viewing it, please let us know who you think is Number One.

Be seeing you!

[flaps2billion]

This thread is going nowhere!

It's to sad to see how people claim that language barriers are the primary cause for runway incursions!
Is it not proven that most runway incursions happen due to congestion at busy airports?

Aiports like YUL, YQB, YOW, YHU, etc... have been providing bilingual traffic service for years without conflict!

The people who discriminate against other languages, are the same type of people who only know one language and are humiliated because of it! Instead of accepting it, they create bogus arguments......

This is how ATC works......they give you an instruction/clearance & you do it. It does not matter what language the controllers uses with other traffic. It's as simple as that!

[gumbi]

Number two said: "'this thread is going nowhere...'

Thank you for that valuable and insightful input......"








ça me fait plaisir/my pleasure...

four pages of "dialogue de sourd"... happens every six months or so and never achieves anything except name calling and senseless comments... apart for one or two sensible posters, the rest is pot stirring at its best.

[Tintin]

Yes it's sad, for a little while it was pure profesional/political debate. But it's seem that on a forum people have the tendency to use there feeling intead of there head when talking...

I give up........

[Carrier]

Quote by flaps2billion: “they create bogus arguments......”

Flaps2billion, are you unable to read and comprehend the following that I put in post 11 above?
“This is not just a language or local politics issue, it is also a SAFETY issue. 176 died in the crash between a BA Trident and a DC-9 on 10 September 1976. A major contributing factor to this mid-air crash was: “The controller was speaking in Croatian to the Yugoslavian plane, which meant that the Trident crew was deprived of information that might have saved their lives.”
Do you consider the deaths of 176 passengers and crew to be a bogus argument? If so, I can only express my disgust at your political expediency and outright callousness!

Who said language barriers are the primary cause of runway incursions? There is reference to the use of a language other then English being a contributory cause to runway incursions, but there is a significant difference between it being a contributory cause and it being the primary cause. You would seem to have a severe comprehension problem! (Perhaps the sort of comprehension problem that causes runway incursions, altitude errors, turning the wrong way, etc.)

Why wait until there is another crash due to the use of other than English in aviation? Intelligent and responsible people do everything reasonably possible to learn from previous mistakes and prevent the same thing happening again. Doh! There is even a similar motto in every issue of Canada’s Aviation Safety Letter. It’s too bad there are too many Canadians who ignore such responsible attitudes.

Note that the use of English in aviation is not specifically anti-French. ALL other languages should not be used in aviation. Like it or not, English is supposed to be the international language of aviation and for SAFETY is the only language that should be used in aviation communications.

Also, like it or lump it, English is the de facto world language of international trade and commerce.

[flaps2billion]

“This is not just a language or local politics issue, it is also a SAFETY issue. 176 died in the crash between a BA Trident and a DC-9 on 10 September 1976. A major contributing factor to this mid-air crash was: “The controller was speaking in Croatian to the Yugoslavian plane, which meant that the Trident crew was deprived of information that might have saved their lives.”
Do you consider the deaths of 176 passengers and crew to be a bogus argument? If so, I can only express my disgust at your political expediency and outright callousness!

First off.....what a horrible example! Remember that the controllers also speak english in YUL, YQB, YHU, YMX.....
Once you make initial contact in English, the service you will receive will always be in english. Not French nor Croatian!

My arguments are not politicial! Just stating facts about the reality of things. The bottom line is, the system works in Quebec for all pilots.

Bilingual ATC is not the danger. I strongly believe the bilingual problem arises in the CzE, MF, ATF zones & 126.7. That is where French & English pilot have to communicate & make conflict resolutions.
I was once told on a MF to speak French because other private pilots would not understand me......

But A,B,C,D zones are different. You get your instruction/ clearance & you do it.
It doesn't matter what language the other traffic is speaking in a control zone. You get your instructions from ATC & you do it!

[Carrier]

Quote: “You get your instructions from ATC & you do it!” Just like the Trident crew did! Just like the Yugoslavian aircraft’s crew did! Both in controlled airspace! Result – CRASH! Somebody either does not understand the concept of situational awareness and how it can help to avoid crashes or else they do understand it but are prepared to compromise safety for political expediency.


Interesting article below:

"ICAO New Language Proficiency Requirements: A Safety Priority For SEPLA

Between 1976 and 2000, more than 1,100 passengers and crew lost their lives in accidents in which investigators determined that language had played a contributory role. Moreover, numerous incidents involving language issues, including a number of runway incursions, are reported annually.
Concern over the role of language in airline accidents turned into action in 1998 when the ICAO Assembly assigned high priority to efforts to strengthen provisions concerning language requirements. Thus, in March 2003 ICAO amended Annexes 1, 6, 10 and 11 which contained the new language proficiency requirements. From 5th March 2008, a new ICAO proficiency standard for the use of English in aviation will become applicable to enhance safety. The emphasis is on the ability of pilots and air traffic controllers, both native and non-native English speakers, to comprehend and communicate effectively to a common standard.
The emphasis is firmly on speaking and listening abilities, and correct use of ICAO standard phraseology. ICAO standardised phraseology shall be used in all situations for which it has been specified. Only when standardised phraseology cannot serve an intended transmission, plain language shall be used. Moreover, the emphasis is on clarity, timely response and accuracy of ATC communication. Six levels of linguistic proficiency have been defined, with a minimum requirement to meet the ICAO Level 4 (operational). All pilots and controllers will be required to demonstrate proper adherence to ICAO international communication procedures. But the real emphasis is on comprehension and the ability to deal with non-standard situations. Provision is made for periodic retesting for those who cannot demonstrate Level 6 proficiency.
Article 33 of the Chicago Convention makes the international recognition of a flight crew license conditional on full compliance with all relevant ICAO Standards including language proficiency;........"

[flaps2billion]

Quote: “You get your instructions from ATC & you do it!” Just like the Trident crew did! Just like the Yugoslavian aircraft’s crew did! Both in controlled airspace! Result – CRASH! Somebody either does not understand the concept of situational awareness and how it can help to avoid crashes or else they do understand it but are prepared to compromise safety for political expediency.


I don't know how you can compare Yugoslavian ATC with Canadian atc...but anyways!

On the controller screen, you have dots. Keep em away from each other & all will be good.
I don't know what went wrong in that situation, but that is an unlikely scenario here in Quebec. Probably their controller was asleep?

Can you honestly tell me since this crash in 1976, has there ever been a big problem in Quebec, France, Switzerland or any other french speaking ATC?

[sepia]

Taking away the ability of pilots to cross check ATC's work is less safe than having other pilots cross check the work. There is absolutely no argument to that. Has Montreal Center caused an accident yet? No. Is it possible or perhaps even likely that if there were an accident that the language issue could be to blame? Definitely!

I find it humorous that we have bilingual people coming on here saying it's not an issue, or it's not unsafe. For you it isn't, for others it most certainly can be an issue.

Have you never had an instance where your hearing and understanding another aircrafts clearance has allowed you to do something to increase the safety margin? It happens almost every time I go to work. That same safety net is taken away when flying into YUL or YOW when people are speaking french.

[saudipc-9]

On the controller screen, you have dots. Keep em away from each other & all will be good.

Go to school for a long time to come up with that?

Been on holiday F2Bill, so sorry for the delay in replying to your post which displays a complete and utter lack of a sense of humor.

I went to a french emerssion school. I thank my parents everyday for that!

Well that's French Immersion school so your parents might wish to get their money back!!

Let's see you have called other folks on this forum ignorant, not very smart ( remember that's Immersion) and narrow minded. I suggest you have a long hard look in the mirror because you are displaying many of the traits that you call others!

Oh and the Habs suck:E

[Number2]

Flaps2billion

No, you are right. You shouldn't compare Yugoslavian ATC (Croation/Serbian/Albanian etc etc I guess it should be now) with Canadian ATC. They use radar and separate aircraft by 5 miles whereas Canadian ATC is still entrenched in procedural service (until ADS is up and about I concede) and pass verbal estimates. I accept this is down to the nature of the country but the ATC here compares with India, Russia and Africa in some places. In addition, the CAATS system is obsolete already in comparison with other ATC systems already in use around the world. Let's not go blowing our own trumpet because we provide a service in a second language at one of 7 ACCs.

[sepia]

Al CapOWNED.

[flaps2billion]

Well that's French Immersion school so your parents might wish to get their money back!


Typo......hahaha soo funny! Let's all laugh to it......Loser!:D

Go to school for a long time to come up with that?


your soo cool...:ugh:


Oh and the Habs suck

Brilliant....let's seee?
+One of the most successfull sports teams in history
+24 stanley cups
+last team to bring cup back home to Canada!
+hosted some of hockey's greatest players
+outperformed all of the other Canadian teams put combined!

Today.....
+In stanley cup contention
+large pool of bright upcoming young prospects
+Bright future
+Carey Price!


good going there buddy......I hope your not a leafs fan, because that would really funny & lame!

[saudipc-9]

F2Bill,

Hit a nerve did I? Good, from what I read you need to be put in your place. Why don't you add a little to your profile so that we can all see what your back ground is besides hiding behind a "typo" error which is your excuse for insulting others.

Have a nice day;)

[capbkk]

I challenge anyone to tell accurately where all or most aircraft are around them in real time. whether ATC speaks Chinese, Arabic, French or English.

Bigotry is what is shown clearly in many posts and is rather sickening to read. Carrier, stop flying, use your car.

[Number2]

I honestly don't think there's a problem with people showing intolerance to a practice which has been shown to be a factor affecting flight safety. If somebody is driving on the wrong side of the road for example, should I accept their desire to endanger other life - I don't think so.

I think a good pilot listens to the RT and builds an 'air picture' in their head. Sure, some don't think outside their own flight deck/cockpit but that's never going to change. Mixed languages doesn't help that practice.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion. Telling Carrier not to fly is a little harsh though.

[saudipc-9]

I think a good pilot listens to the RT and builds an 'air picture' in their head. Sure, some don't think outside their own flight deck/cockpit but that's never going to change. Mixed languages doesn't help that practice.

Ahh the voice of reason. Well-said Number2 (must be your age:ok:)

It's quite amusing (and sad) that once anything gets mentioned regarding language a number of folks start blaring the horns and tooting the trumpets for a rally to the cause of protecting the language. Common sense and reason get lost on what is a simple and fair point of flight safety. A point I might add that be it big or small still adds up to a safer environment for all concerned.

[Number2]

'a safer environment for all concerned'

I'll drink to that. I don't think anybody has ever described me as the voice of reason - I must be getting old................:(

[Seat62K]

Carrier's comment in post 40, where he refers to the Quebec "language police" and its treatment of an Irish pub, reminds me of a story which claims that the Quebec authorities will have a go at "easier" targets (for example, insisting that department store "Eaton's" changed to "Eaton") but will not flex its muscles when it comes to multinationals (leaving McDonald's, for example, alone). If this is true it's hypocritical.
Don't get me wrong. I love Montreal and have always found French speakers invariably patient as I struggle in my poor French.
Quebec, though, can be so difficult to fathom. Why, for example, do roads in the small town of Hudson have "Stop" signs and not the usual "Arret"?
P.S. Haven't visited in a while. Has Windsor station in Montreal been renamed?

[BeechNut]

P.S. Haven't visited in a while. Has Windsor station in Montreal been renamed?

Renamed? No. Castrated? Yes. Castrated as in "the trains don't go there anymore". When they built the hockey arena (Bell Center or whatever sugar daddy wants it name on it these days), the plunked it down where the station's old train shed used to be, and they built a new station on the end of the arena, a couple of hundred meters from the old one. It's called "Gare Lucien Lallier". He was the engineer that essentially was responsible for the metro system. There is still a corridor, I think, linking it to the old Windsor station, which is now just a fine old building with the life sucked right out of it.

As you can tell, I am something of a railway enthusiast in addition to planes. Planes, trains and automobiles, actually, should be my motto. I think buildings with the name "station" in them, should actually have trains stopping there.

Incidentally that line is now used exclusively for commuter trains. No more intercity trains, those are all located at Central Station a few blocks away.

Beech

[Seat62K]

Thanks. I did mean the commuter station with services going west to Rigaud. Last I heard, a few years ago, it was still called Gare Windsor. I asked the question because I did not know what had happened since. I remember Lucien L'Allier as a metro stop. One less Anglophone name, I suppose...

[admiral ackbar]

Quebec, though, can be so difficult to fathom. Why, for example, do roads in the small town of Hudson have "Stop" signs and not the usual "Arret"?


Because the verb "Stopper" is a perfectly legitimate french word. The government gave municipalities the choice between "Arret" and "Stop", most anglo chose Stop as it complies with the law and makes the residents happy.

Who said governments were stupid! ;)

[Bral11]

Okaaay, reading this 5 page thread has completely put me off haha!

Thanks for your help pre-page 3 :)

Oh and also, chill out lads!

[rwethereyet]

How did the Habs get involved with this!?!? Man did this spin out of control....hope the poor lad who asked the original question isn't put off by Quebec or Canada for that matter.:}
To get back to the original post....yes Quebec and or Canada is a great place to learn how to fly and if you choose to do it in Quebec then you will be accomodated at all levels in the language of your choice,French or English.:D

Hope this helps and go Habs go!!

Cheers,
RWTY

[drapo]

As I remember, this thread was about learning to fly in the Montreal area for an English speaking student. You will be able to learn to fly in our area in your native language without any problems as English and French are used in official pilot/controller communications.

I don't want to comment on some "politically" motivated postings but to say that ignorance is at the basis of racism.

As for the Zagreb accident that did cost the lives of too many people, their ATC system was ultimately responsable for those deaths. The language issue was anecdoctical as during the last few seconds of the flight, the controller stopped the use of English with the Yougoslavian crew to warn them of the danger in his mother tongue, which wasn't the same as the pilots. If I remember well, he was using Croate when the pilots were Albanese, but I could be mistaken about the language used.

And finally, for all those who fall for statistics, how many accidents were not caused by languages? Some are talking about the concept that the use of the same language in pilot/controller communication helps the pilots maintaining the "air picture" but numerous studies have proven that this is not the case, and that's why Canada decided, back in 1976 or so, to use both French and English in certain areas. A while back, as I was attending a workshop where pilots and controllers were discussing this exact issue, the morning paper had a story of a B737 that flatened a Metroliner at the LAX airport. While the controller cleared the Metroliner to position on the active, he then, just a few seconds later, cleared the B737 to land on that same runway. Both flights used English, so did the controller, and lives were lost. And for those who are saying that it is more dangerous at small airports were there are more unilingual pilots, don't forget that not everyone has a radio, so you might not be aware of everyone using the airport anyway...

Hope that sheds a new light on the issue. As for the original question, again, don't be scared to fly in our region, nowadays we even have Chinese student pilots who come to St-Hubert airport, in the Montreal area, to learn how to fly in an English speaking environment...

[AeroDiaz]

The brit was only looking for a little advice!. Now, this forum has turned into a hidden-frustrations relief valve.

You guys should get a room... :yuk:

[Red Mud]

Ah ... all the Canadian angst, animosity and insecurityall pinned to the clothesline for all to see. Will we ever grow out of this?

[airbus757]

Number1 is Jean-Luc Picards first officer. Not sure who number2 is...maybe Data.

I used to work in Quebec for 6 Years and have never had a bad feeling about the situational awareness because of the 2 languages spoken on atc. Just the same as it is in France and many places around the world.

As for the safety issues, I believe that in the smaller airports around Quebec it would be more dangerous to have english only as many pilots who fly in those areas do not speak English or their English is poor. We can not expect some guy to learn English if he never leaves Quebec airspace.

And another point, I have flown all over the world and the Canadian airspace is definately among the best hands down. This includes Quebec.

7

[Jumbo744]

Hello,

I fly everyday out of montreal YHU and you will be safer if you can speak both French And English. You have french speaking pilots that don't know a word of english and english speaking pilots that don't know a word of french. ATC is excellent both in french and english. I adapt my language to the area and I sometimes have to do traffic advisories in both french and english.

As for the safety issues, I believe that in the smaller airports around Quebec it would be more dangerous to have english only as many pilots who fly in those areas do not speak English or their English is poor. We can not expect some guy to learn English if he never leaves Quebec airspace.

Absolutely :ok:

[20driver]

Back to the OP. I fly into Montreal as a GA pilot several times a year. I also grew up there.
As a practical matter the language issue is a non issue. You will figure out all the French you need to know, and it is not a lot, pretty quickly. Despite all the Canadian angst and BS I am not aware of a single incident in Canada where language was a factor in an aviation incident. If there was one several on here would have let you know by now.
If I had to chose for the locale it would be Montreal or Vancouver, I'd skip the rest though Harvs Air is MB seems to get good ratings for the program.

The real issue is what flight school. It is a lot of money and buyer beware, really beware. In all honestly you are going to be so busy that Sudbury might look good after a while.

I would focus on what school offers the best package. Do your research and dig deep. I would visit each one in person. Pay a few bucks, save a lot of bucks.

20driver

[saudipc-9]

Oh God, not this thread again!!:mad:

[iceberglead]

I agree with a comment about Carrier, you should travel by train or auto, maybe submarine.

I have worked quite extensively in Quebec, being unilingually English, I have endeavoured at times to improve my communicating ability in French.
I, along with an American crew, were recently released from fire duties in PQ because of a language barrier. Remember we are in a French speaking province, in special purpose airspace and the bureaucrats sometimes have to waive regulation to maintain safety. Two English speaking pilots required to communicate with all sorts of people on the ground, while these people strive to coordinate an airborne attack on a major fire in French. This could possibly lead to major safety problems. Just the way it works. Am I angry. Ofcourse not, French speaking citizens that work the skies anywhere else in Canada have to learn English. A bit of a double standard I guess when I hear of English people bigoting the French.

As for flying in Quebec generally, I shouldn't think an English speaking pilot would have much difficulty unless he/she has an attitude and PO's a controller. Be professional and polite, like anywhere else and you should be fine.

For the most part, English speaking pilots will never encounter a problem in Quebec airspace in general aviation circumstances.

Cheers.