Amended levels at Clearance Delivery

[Greedo]

Just wondering what people think about getting cleared at 'amended' levels by clearance delivery, often ridiculously lower than the flight planned level, then getting susbequent climb?

Does it create any confusion about what your final cruising level might end up actually being?

Is it a pain in the arse with respect to FMS?

[Starts with P]

Are you talking about "Maintain 5000" and alike? Or an actual ammended level?

[insertnamehere]

No and no.

[Greedo]

Are you talking about "Maintain 5000" and alike? Or an actual ammended level?


Kind of...

"ABC cleared to KLAX via blah, Amended level A050........" (whilst flight plan is at FL370 ish)

that kind of thing.

[Greedo]

Don't know why you say amended - the clearance is Maintain 5000 or 6000 usually.


'cause its in MATS. 9-15-370


If the route and/or level issued in the airways clearance is not in
accordance with the Flight Plan, prefix the route and/or level
clearance with AMENDED.


'maintain' a level should only be used when there is an expectation the aircraft will maintain a level on descent. 9-25-290

I take the point of the 'paper-stop' but....I still feel that these initial level restictions should belong in the realms of departure or control instuctions. Where is the 'paper-stop' between controller A and controller B?

Isn't this transferring the responsibility for separation into workload and increased confusion for the cockpit?

Thoughts?

[THE IRON MAIDEN]

Clearance Delivery can only get you an initial clearnace. and they are limited to 3000'

Departures then get you on climb to 3000 and move you as they need to and climb you when they can.

I was given an Amended 3000 clearance, and Dep then recleared me amended 1600, then after traffice was clear climb to flight plan alt.

its just a box arond they airport up to 3000' to get you in the air and then depaurtes move the traffic around as required. they then set you on track and give you to centre.

there isnt much confusion if you listen to the controller and read back what he says.

[Delay Approved]

Clearance delivery is usually a much quieter frequency than tower. The frequency congestion that would be caused by using tower to tell every aircraft 'maintain 3000' and the subsequent read back would be huge during peak times.

[jetstar1]

Is anyone else confused? :confused: Are you saying Clearance Delivery should clear you straight to FL370?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Greedo

Is your question a hypothetical one or based on experience?

While I don't spend any time in the Flight Levels (apart from an hour or so at FL140 last week), I do get to hear the jet-jocky traffic.

I would have said that when they get an ammended clearance as you describe it is usually only temporary due to traffic and ATC issues and they seem to be recleared to what I assume was their flightplanned level quite quickly.

For example, the initial clearance from "Clearance Delivery" might be to FL160 but on transferring to Approach/Departures they are recleared to FL360.

There must be some blow-pipe pilots in here who can speak with authority!

Dr :8

PS: Interestingly, the guy on Clearance Delivery did not even hesitate when clearing the BE35 to FL140 last week.

[Chimbu chuckles]

It is a bit of an anomaly in Oz procedures.

O/S they have 'stop heights' on SID plates, such as 6000' at LHR and 3000' at DXB. Your clearance will be "Cleared to XYZ, BS1 departure, squawk 1234". In the notes section and/or in a Frequency box on the SID plate will be information on when to change after takeoff and what frequency...usually asap after passing 500' (agl).

Thus there is no need for 'amended' altitudes because they are unable, understandably, to clear you direct to cruise level.

Invariably you're cleared higher, traffic permitting, as soon as you change to departure frequency after takeoff.

It makes perfect sense and is a system that works very well...not to mention greatly simplifying clearance delivery/readback...unlike Oz clearances that generally go along the lines of "XYZ cleared to sydney via laravale 2, amended 6000', Flight plan route, departure frequency (or is it "First frequency airborne") 123.4"

What would you rather listen to, absorb and readback?

[ccysam]

What I hate is getting a clearance at say Mackey to FL 240, but you know as soon as you line up its " maintain 3000 clear for takeoff".

[Blockla]

Well, how dare there be a confliction; or a need to do coordination to the sectors about the aircraft about to launch into their airspace; the nerve of them imposing a 'clearance'.:}

All clearance delivery's have different procedures, something they are looking at in the 'bigger picture'; but it may be coupled with another thread here recently with non-ATCs doing it. For example Canberra is very different from Sydney.

Geez, purleez... Seriously though, ring the tower and talk to someone who does it (to you); go for a visit and learn "why" they do it; depite our reputations we actually like to explain why we do things, to stop argy bargy and increase knowledge all around.

Chimbu, bring them plates on here too; sounds great.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

What I hate is getting a clearance at say Mackey to FL 240, but you know as soon as you line up its " maintain 3000 clear for takeoff".

ccysam

That's cause I am inbound from Rocky in the FTDK and you might run into me if they let you charge on up to FL240.

Dr :8

[ACMS]

Must be something about radio failure to consider as well.

What if your radio fails at 500' in IMC, you can't stay at 5000' all the way to destination............so what are you supposed to do? How long do you stay at 5000' before "continuing as per flight plan"

[Chimbu chuckles]

Probably why Jets have 3 VHFs/2 HFs and any half serious IFR single/twin has 2 VHFs/1 HF...and why SID plates have lost coms procedures printed on them.

I think they have it covered, don't you?

[No Further Requirements]

ccysam, are you serious?

What I hate is getting a clearance at say Mackey to FL 240, but you know as soon as you line up its " maintain 3000 clear for takeoff".

It's called separation.

Cheers,

NFR.

[Howard Hughes]

any half serious IFR single/twin has 2 VHFs/1 HF
Some even have UHF and a satphone too...;)

[Capt Claret]

Ex ASP it's A080, PER & CNS it's A060 but at DRW it's A030. The DRW SID is RWY HDG to A020 then turn, the Douglas B717 rockets skywards and starts to capture A030 before approach clears one to higher levels.

Now that's frustrating but then again, it is DRW. :ugh:

[Starts with P]

XYZ cleared to sydney via laravale 2, amended 6000', Flight plan route, departure frequency (or is it "First frequency airborne") 123.4
Which clearance delivery gives a clearance like that? Everywhere I worked, the phrase is "maintain 6000", not "amended 6000". There is a difference.

[320/20]

Greedo my 2.2 cents worth (GST inc)

We use 6000FT at YBBN to allow for auto releases. INbound acft assigned 7000FT then managed vertically by approach below that.

Its called separation assurance. We used to have aircraft cleared through to FL200 and had a few nasties. The 6000FT serves well.

YBCG has a cap of 6000FT for different traffic management reasons as well as catering for the route lowest safe to the south of 5700FT.

Like wise YSSY etc.

[Capn Bloggs]

Is it a pain in the arse with respect to FMS?
No. This intermediate level is not put into the FMS.

[ccysam]

My point is, why not just clear us to 3000 on the airways clearance. Saves a lot of winding and the potental for an incorrect setting in the busy period just before takeoff.

[Muffinman]

Starts with P - You ask "which clearance delivery gives a clearance like that?" I've received "maintain 3000" and "amended 3000" and plain 'ol "3000" from ACD at YPDN. So what's going on there?

My understanding is if being assigned a route/level other than that expected according to the flight notification ATS will prefix with "amended".

[Ivasrus]

Most civil ACD will issue "maintain x000" with initial clearance. Pretty much an international common practice. Allows TMAs to streamline departure procedures and ensure separation with other traffic in the TMA.

RAAF are a whole other group of anal retents and use the (MATS-correct) "amended x000".

SY DEP are instructed not to issue jets with a level below 5000 on initial departure. This came from a domestic 767 carrier mitigating a number of level busts. It is surprising Darwin use 3000. That's the RAAF for you.

Radio fail procedures place responsibility on the pilot to climb to lowest safe altitude.

[Ready Immediate]

My point is, why not just clear us to 3000 on the airways clearance. Saves a lot of winding and the potental for an incorrect setting in the busy period just before takeoff.

You are usually issued an airways clearance 15-20min prior to departure (sometimes even longer). The level restriction that you get with the take off clearance depends on the traffic at the time and would be different if you were departing a minute earlier or a minute later. There is no possible way to know at the time of issuing the airways clearance what traffic will be around and therefore what tracking or level restriction will be required.

RI

[Capn Bloggs]

My point is, why not just clear us to 3000 on the airways clearance. Saves a lot of winding and the potental for an incorrect setting in the busy period just before takeoff.

We rarely get a change from our "amended" level given in the airways clearance ie 6000ft. Only when there is directly conflicting traffic will the cleared level be changed just prior to takeoff.

[Greedo]

Ivasrus,

RAAF are a whole other group of anal retents and use the (MATS-correct) "amended x000".



I didn't realise there were parts of the rules that could be ignored, interesting.

It is surprising Darwin use 3000. That's the RAAF for you.



Didn't they let you in or something?

However, maybe the RTF should be 'maintain XXX' at clearance delivery, and let the tail wag the dog.

[Muffinman]

Yeh greedo I'm with you - just a bit harsh from Ivasrus.

Here's a hypothetical - if I was Doc Neeson - flying for Angel Flight :E and asked for an airways clearance what would I get as a reply? :ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

".... and any half serious IFR single/twin has 2 VHFs/1 HF...."

That's does it Chuckles, no more flying the FTDK for you!

Might not have a HF, but its got 3 x VHFs, SatPhone, G3, and Broadband!

Dr :8

[Chimbu chuckles]

....pretty please?:{

Actually my HF only gets switched on because of the avionics master:E

And I think broadband trumps HF...can't post on Pprune at 10k over Moranbah on HF.:D

Sufficient crawling oh GREAT tamer of the FTDK?:ok::}

[No Further Requirements]

As someone hinted at earlier, the 'maintain AXXX' is usually written into local instructions at each location. Melbourne is 5000ft, Canberra is 10,000ft. It has to do with lowest assignable levels by other sectors and, in some cases, the ability for the tower to to auto release instead of asking for departure instructions.

If you are that concerned with the practice, go into the centre/approach room and ask about it. There will usually be an explanation in the local instructions to justify it. ATC are quite happy to have aircrew come in and have a look, plug in and ask questions. This is how we we all get better - by asking questions and knowing (to an extent!) the job of the other person.

Cheers,

NFR.