Nppl Changes!

[BEagle]

NPPL CHANGES!

Several changes regarding the UK NPPL came into effect today. The explanatory AIC was agreed yesterday, but the AIC production process means that it physically cannot be promulgated until the end of March.

Do I need to do anything immediately? NO – there will be a ‘transition period’ from now until the end of April 2009.

What are the main changes? Mainly to revalidation. Whereas up until now Microlight and SLMG Class Ratings on an NPPL have had 13 month validity periods and a logbook stamp, SSEA Class Ratings have had a ‘rolling’ validity period. After your next revalidation (which must be within the transition period) all Class Ratings will have a 24 month validity period and a Certificate of Revalidation will be used, not a logbook stamp.

Does this affect ‘old-style’ UK PPL(M) or PPL (SLMG) holders? No. They can stay on the present system if they so wish.

What are the new revalidation requirements? ‘12-in-24 + 6-in-12’ Meaning that in the new 24 month period you will need to fly 12 hours TT on SSEA, SLMG and/or Microlights, of which 8 must be as PIC and 12 t/os and ldgs are required. 6 of the 12 TT must be in the final 12 months.

Is there a ‘dual training flight’ requirement? It’s now optional – but if you don’t fly at least 1 hour with an instructor in the 24 month period then, when your Class Ratings are next revalidated, you will be restricted to ‘Single Seat Aircraft Only’. If you only ever fly something like a single seat Microlight or a Cosmic Wind, you may wish to exercise this option.

Is the ‘dual training flight’ still a minimum of 1 hour? No. You can do whatever training you wish in any of the 3 Classes of aeroplanes you can include in an NPPL. So, if you normally fly off tarmac and go to a nearby grass strip, do half an hour’s training, then land for lunch before coming home again, that’ll all count. If it doesn’t add up to at least 1 hour then you can do the rest at another time.

Up until now I’ve only held a SSEA Rating, but I’ve taken Microlight differences training and exercised my licence privileges on Microlights. Can I still do that? Yes, but when you apply for your next revalidation the Examiner will add a Microlight Class Rating to your Certificate of Revalidation with ‘Exempt’ in the ‘Date of Test’ column. For legal reasons you will need to fill out a form (which will be available from www.nppl.uk.com (http://www.uk.nppl.com/)) and send it off to the CAA so that they can issue you with an updated licence. You can carry on flying both SSEAs and Microlights without needing to wait for the new licence. The CAA expect this to be a nil cost process, but this has yet to be confirmed. Don’t say anything sarcastic – they’ve been very, very helpful in all this!

Does the same apply if I’ve been using my SSEA Rating on SLMGs? Yes. And also if you’ve been exercising your NPPL (SSEA) privileges on Microlights and SLMGs.

Does this also apply if my SSEA Class Rating has lapsed? No. If your SSEA Rating has lapsed, then you will need to renew it by GST. If you then wish to add Microlight and/or SLMG Class Ratings to your licence – even if you’ve been previously flown such aircraft on your SSEA Rating - you will need to follow the requirements listed in NPPL XC REV 07 which you can find on the ‘Licence Allowances’ tab on www.nppl.uk.com (http://www.nppl.uk.com/) .

If I hold more than one Class Rating, will I need to meet the ‘12-in-24 + 6-in-12’ requirements on each Class? NO!! Good news – the ‘12-in-24 + 6-in-12’ can be accumulated on any of the 3 classes, so long as the total adds up to at least ‘12-in-24 + 6-in-12’, including the 12 t/os and ldgs. The only additional requirement is that you must fly at least 1 hour on each Class – which may either be as PIC or as PU/T with an instructor on that Class. Again, that’s a minimum total in each Class. So, for example, 2 x 30 min in one of the Classes will be fine.
But that means I need only fly an hour in 2 years in a SSEA to maintain my validity if I do everything else in a Microlight? Isn’t that a bit risky? Not at all – if you own your own SSEA would you really let it rust for the rest of the period? And if you only did an hour, would anyone be happy to rent you an aeroplane? In any case, you still have to maintain 90 day recency in any Class to carry passengers in that Class.

What about Instructor Ratings? You will be able to include a FI or AFI Rating on Microlights and/or a FI Rating on SLMGs in an NPPL. This includes the right to receive remuneration.

Does this also apply to SSEA instruction? NO. There are no changes to the requirements for SSEA flight instruction.

What about Seaplanes? The ANO has introduced a formal requirement for differences training for seaplanes. For Microlights this will be as decided by the BMAA, but for SSEA seaplanes, the same requirements as for JAR-FCL SEP (Sea) Class Ratings will apply.

Any medical changes? Nothing significant – just administrative tidying up.

[S-Works]

Well thats interesting, thanks Beagle.

So I have to go back to signing licenses for NPPL revalidation's?

[BEagle]

Yes!








.

[homeguard]

BEAgle

To clarify. Does it mean that if an NPPL comes to me today I should apply the new rules as you have outlined them with immediate effect. i.e. we do not have to wait for the AIC issue.

[BEagle]

If a NPPL comes to you today (or before the end of the transition period), it must be valid under the old system and you will then need to sign the Certificate of Revalidation as I stated above. Once that has been signed, the holder comes onto the new system.

If the holder has been exercising Microlight and/or SLMG privileges on an SSEA Class Rating , you need to contact NPLG for the correct form and guidance note. It hasn't yet been uploaded onto the website as we don't want Examiners misunderstanding. Even if written in words of half a syllable, let alone in 'shall not unless' ANO-speak, you would be surprised how many Examiners seem to be incapable of following even the simplest instructions....

We still see some Examiners conducting JAR-FCL PPL Skill Tests for the NPPL instead of the NST and GST, for example....:ugh:

[kestrel539]

Looks like we owe you a pint or two.
Well done and thanks

[S205-18F]

Thanks Beagle for that very informative post and all your input!
John.

[neilb2nd]

I for one am not cheering. Did I miss the response to the RIA or was this just steamrollered through? For microlight pilots at least the change to revalidation is not a good thing.

1. It sets up a different regime for people flying the same aircraft dependent on whether they hold an older (PPLA) or newer (NPPL) licence
2. It adds cost (the equivelent of approximately 5 hours flying) for no demonstrated benefit
3. It adds a bureaucratic step which was not wanted by the panel of microlight examiners or the BMAA in it's response
:mad:

[rans6andrew]

for those of us that only fly microlights on our NPPL(M) licences we have been shafted. We now have to cough up for time with an instructor which those people with PPL(M) or the D licence do not have to do. Since the NPPL was supposed to be an equivalent replacement, how is it that it is now treated as different?

Not best pleased. Can I have the old PPL(M) please?

[BEagle]

neilb2nd, the RIA was widely publicised and the BMAA responded accordingly. In fact the exact same words were seen in several responses from Microlight pilots; orchestrated responses are not viewed in the same light as individual responses. MS Word is very useful for sniffing out 'cut and paste' responses to RIAs!

Those on the old-style Microlight licences can continue as they are.

Those with NPPLs don't have to do any dual training if they wish to restrict themselves to flying single seat Microlight aeroplanes only.

But all others WILL have to do some continuation training. That doesn't have to be a single 60 min flight - build it up however you wish. It is well known that the average Microlight pilot flies many more than 12 hours in 24 months, so 'coughing up' to do 1 of those with a FI is hardly going to break the bank.

It was the majority view of the NPPL P&SC that, particularly now the Micolight world is flying aircraft right up to the maximum weight limit which are SSEAs in all but 1 kg, the dual training is now necessary.

When you just flew the original lightweight aeroplanes, things were very different. But you've pushed and pushed the weight limit and it was generally felt that a line had to be drawn. The CAA's safety statistics were also considered.

All those who kept saying how gucci their high performance Microlights were - and how they outperformed tired old spamcans - should reflect on the wisdom of having made such statements.

Can I have the old PPL(M) please? No - it's no longer available.

[Mandator]

Beags - ref your post #6, I've had just that problem with an examiner expecting me to do a whole lot of nav-aid work for my NPPL, even though my little Super Cub does not even have any electrics. Not a problem said he - he had a battery-powered VOR for my delectation. All power (sorry!) to your elbow in getting the message across.

[rans6andrew]

BEagle,

I am still flying an old rag and tube microlight, I have been shafted.

[BEagle]

Mandator - please direct the Examiner to www.nppl.uk.com (http://www.nppl.uk.com) so that he can download the correct syllabus and test requirements. And remind him of Regulation 6 concerning improper conduct of tests....

rans6andrew - I find it difficult to believe that a mere hour every 24 months with an instructor has 'shafted' you. When did you last have any sort of a training flight?

[neilb2nd]

Beagle, I'm disappointed in that response, and feel let down by the NPPL committee (and the CAA have likewise lived down to my expectations)

It's frankly rubbish to say that because a number of people agreed with the BMAA response then their veiws should not be taken into account. A hundred pilots saying that an idea is stupid should carry more weight than one saying the same thing. What is the point of the RIA if the output does not have to be justified against the comments submitted?

It's highly disengenuous to say that dual training is a choice. My syndicate partner and I can fly off together with him as P1 on his PPL, but then he has to take the train back after lunch because I can only fly solo on an NPPL! In fact it's worse than that, because I have to take the seat out and he has to take that back on the train with him!

'Coughing up' as you say to fly with a FI will add a cost to flying. An hours instruction costs an hour - whether I do it in 60, minute sessions or an hour at a go. In any event, the money isn't necessarily the point. You said that the safety statistics were taken into account. I'd be very interested in seeing those statistics that prove that NPPL holding pilots are more prone to accidents than those holding a PPL, and that lack of regular instructional flights was a causal factor. Perhaps you'd like to back up that statement. It doesn't seem to be shared by the BMAA or the panel of microlight examiners.

In the meantime, I too, feel shafted by a group that seems to have based a decision on envy that modern microlights outperform older Group A.

[BEagle]

"A hundred pilots saying that an idea is stupid should carry more weight than one saying the same thing. What is the point of the RIA if the output does not have to be justified against the comments submitted?"

If those were individual replies, perhaps.

But one reply copied one hundred times? Not so. As stated in the Consultation Response Document CRD 01-06:

A number of very similarly constructed comments were received, stating very similar objections, and it is probable that a number of comments were submitted as part of a concerted campaign to influence the outcome of the consultation.

Incidentally, 'Single seat' means an aeroplane constructed with one seat. A 2-seater with a seat taken out is not a 'single seat' aeroplane.

You say that the cost is not necessarily the the point of your objection to regular refresher flying training. Just what is your real objection?

[neilb2nd]

Beagle, Do you have a link to CRD 01-06 please? I can't find it on the CAA Website.

My objections to this change are exactly as I said in the first post:

1. It sets up a different regime for people flying the same aircraft dependent on whether they hold an older (PPL) or newer (NPPL) licence

2. It adds cost for no demonstrated benefit

3. It adds a bureaucratic step on the entirely spurious grounds that although I've passed all of the exams and test to hold a pilots licence I'm too stupid to remember the revalidation requirements.

I accept that we can't back out of the NPPL , buit it now offers no advantage and a demonstrable financial disadvantage to a microlight pilot.

I strongly believe that anything that adds cost to our flying needs to be justified. Properly, with facts and figures - not just because I can put 'safety' in the sentence and because someone flying an old Gp A aircraft is envious of a shiny new metal / composite microlight.

It's disappointing that we put up with all of this bureaucratic rubbish just because we fly. I don't have to revalidate a driving licence every two years.

[rans6andrew]

It is not just the cost of buying an hour of instructor time that is the issue.

If I am to be "under instruction" in my own aircraft I need to have the instructor added to my aircraft insurance. This may or may not add to the cost but it is something that increases the chore.

If I am to take my hour of training in another machine then finding one with enough headroom becomes a problem. I ended up with the Rans I have as it was the only closed cockpit aircraft I could find that, when I removed the seat cushions, allowed me to sit normally without having my head pressed against the structure of the cockpit frame. I have sat in a C42, a Eurostar and CT2K and find all to be lacking in cockpit height. In the other training aircraft, the Thruster there is enough room except that the engine blocks most of the view ahead if you are tall. Are there any other 3 axis microlights used for training?

At Brimpton, where I fly from, we don't have any instructors on hand. This means I don't have the option of a spontaneous "have you got time to fly with me for an hour?" but need to book ahead. This leads to weather, instructor and aircraft all needing to be good for the day. It was this hassle that lead me to buy my own aircraft in the first place. At least I only need to have the right weather to be able to fly.

So all in all, it is a total pain, one that has not been inflicted upon the PPL(M) licence holders. If there was a clear need for it they would have been forced into this as well.

[rans6andrew]

p.s. BEagle, I last took flying instruction a lot more recently than most of the PPL(M) licence holders. Is this relevent?

I think I might end up taking an hour of instruction in a flexwing when the time comes. I'm told that they are great fun in nice weather. No headroom issues there.

[BEagle]

CRD 01-06 ANO NPPL Amendments - 16 Jul 07 - v.2.00.00.pdf is the document title - I cannot find it on the CAA website either. Quite why that should be, I do not know.

The original letter of consultation was sent to more than 1000 addressees; however, only 45 responded.

You can see the documents released in the public consultation at
http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?gid=1301

However, this does not include CRD 01-06 which included the amendment to require '6-in-last-12' of the '12-in-24' revalidation by experience requirements.

[Avionista]

BEagle:

I hold a NPPL (SSEA/SEP) which required revalidation by the 19th Dec 2007. In accordance with AIC 3/2004 para 1.3.1 (a), at the end of October 2007 I undertook a 1 hour instruction flight with an instructor who signed my 1 hour PUT logbook entry. At that time I had flown 30 hours as PIC in the previous 12 months.

As a result of the changes you listed in your initial post, what am I required to do between now and the end of April 2009 to maintain my license validation?

By the way, I didn't find the 1 hour instruction flight particularly onerous. An independent check every two years that you can still perform the exercises you were taught when first learning to fly (e.g. PFL, stall recovery, steep turns, etc) keeps you from getting 'rusty', and the cost, using my aircraft and fuel, was only £20.

[BEagle]

Is your NPPL SSEA Class Rating still valid?

In other words, assuming we're talking about 2 Feb 2008, have you flown, in addition to the 1 hr with the FI, a further 5 hours (of which 4 must have been as PIC) between 2 Feb 2007 and 2 Feb 2008?

If so, then all you have to do is to prove your Rating validity to an Examiner and obtain a new 24 month Rating validity signature in your Certificate of Revalidation. From that moment on you will start on the new system.

People often flew, quite unintentionally, with invalid NPPL SSEA Class Ratings through being victims of the infamous 'rolling validity' scheme. Which is why we were so keen to have fixed dates in licences to refer to - and came up with '12-in-24 + 6-in-12' instead.

[Avionista]

BEagle:

Thanks for your reply.

Between the 26 Feb 2007 and today I have flown 21 hours as PIC. Would it be best to get onto the new NPPL revalidation system ASAP, or wait until the new AIC is published?

[Crash one]

BEagle.
Since my licence issue Jul 07 I have flown 4hr 45min solo + 9hrs dual (various conversions / tailwheel diff) does this dual / instruction all count in the 12-24 / 6-12 scenario?
If I buy a taildragger not insured for an instructor can I do the 1 hr instructional in a Flight school nose dragger when required?

[neilb2nd]

Avionista, the point is not that I have run out of things to spend money on in aviation, nor that I can't think of some 'good ideas' for people to do. The point is that I don't think they should be mandatory unless there is a clear, evidenced need. BEagle hasn't responded to this - which makes me suspect that (s)he does indeed understand the point.

I personally enjoyed a trip to ATC and D&D at West Drayton last year. I learnt things about both, especially D&D that I didn't know beforehand. I'd greatly recommend it (although it now means going to Swannick). I would not recommend that if you didn't go then you couldn't revalidate your licence.

Hands up who thinks that we need more regulation and cost in aviation? Well, that'll be the NPPL steering committee then.

[BEagle]

The CAA have now extended the transition period until 30 Jun 2009.

Avionista - there is no need to rush into changing to the new system. Just make sure that your 'rolling validity' period is still valid when you do though! I'm glad that you accepted the safety value of the refresher flying training you had in Oct 2007.

The 20 Nov 2005 CAA Regulatory Review indicated that for 'mainstream' GA, the fatal accident rate was 1.3 per 100000 flying hours, whereas for gliders and microlights, the rate was nearly double at 2.5 per 100000 flying hours. BGA, PFA/LAA and AOPA all accepted the value of refresher flying training - clearly you are one of the wiser folk who also understands that!

Crash one, the new system does not apply to you until you changeover to it! Your SSEA Class Rating is valid in any case until Jul 2008, so I suggest you changeover before then (it shouldn't cost you anything). You then have 24 months from that point onward to do your 60 minutes of flying training. If you buy your own taildragger (enjoy!) and insurance is a problem, you can of course do the flying training in a school tricycle undercarriage aeroplane. So, for example if you changed over on 10 Jun 2008, you would have from then until 9 Jun 2010 to complete your 12h-in-24m of which at least 1h (total) must be with an instructor and 8h as PIC - and you have from 10 Jun 2009 until 9 Jun 2010 to do at least 6h of those 12h.

[Zulu Alpha]

I have a full PPL and do think that the requirement to fly with an instructor every 2 years is a bit onerous. Its maybe OK if you only fly 5 hrs a year but for a high hours pilot it doesn't provide much value.

In my case I fly 75-80 hrs per year in a 200HP single seat aerobatics aircraft. This year I had to find the cheapest dual seat aircraft for hire and fly an hour with an instructor. It cost me about £130 and was quite pointless.

Perhaps we could have a rule that only requires the 1 hr with an instructor if you have flown less than 25 hrs in the past year.

ZA

[eharding]

I have a full PPL and do think that the requirement to fly with an instructor every 2 years is a bit onerous. Its maybe OK if you only fly 5 hrs a year but for a high hours pilot it doesn't provide much value.


It might add some value for the instructor though - last time round I loaded a non-aerobatic instructor in the back of the Yak and spent a pleasant hour coaching him in some basic aeros - he loved it to bits, I got some valuable PFL-to-land practice in (not available from the overhead at WW unless you have an instructor on board). Another convert to the dark side, job done.

Alternatively, do an hour with Uncle Alan.....unless you've got that Krysta loop from the Masters down to a fine art...

[BEagle]

"Alternatively, do an hour with Uncle Alan"

Is he a FI? Or a CRI(SPA)??

[eharding]

"Alternatively, do an hour with Uncle Alan"

Is he a FI? Or a CRI(SPA)??


Hmm...the CRI(SPA) Loop. It has a ring to it. Requirements would be a 3/4 positve flick, 3/4 negative flick at the top of a loop, while eating a family-sized packet of Walker's Salt & Vinegar. Leaving no crumbs.

[TheOddOne]

while eating a family-sized packet of Walker's Salt & Vinegar. Leaving no crumbs.

Ed,
How come food always seems to slide insidiously into your posts? Thought you were looking trimmer at Sywell last week, must have been a trick of the light.

BEags,

'Uncle' is FI(R). With several thousand instructional hours to his credit, he STILL hasn't had the restriction removed (last time I heard, anyway...)

TOO

[eharding]

How come food always seems to slide insidiously into your posts? Thought you were looking trimmer at Sywell last week, must have been a trick of the light.


Lucky Luke gave me a lift in his 172 from WW - I think I lost a couple of kilos laughing at his attempt to land the thing at Sywell - I remember at one point during the month-long float down the runway offering to get out and hold it down if he was that reluctant to actually land. Nice sarnies at the AGM - I take back some unkind comments I may have made about the catering at Sywell.


'Uncle' is FI(R). With several thousand instructional hours to his credit, he STILL hasn't had the restriction removed (last time I heard, anyway...)


In a different, better, parallel universe all ab-initio training will be on a Pitts S2A....

In an on-topic note, my original NPPL (SSEA) still has a Certificate of Revalidation with a validity date (2004). Given I've been flying on a JAR-PPL (SEP) since 2004, done roughly 150 hours in the past 24 months, have a JAR bi-annual logbook signature from May 2006, what paperwork should I need to get the NPPL paperwork in order?

[MadamBreakneck]

OK chaps, how about looking at it this way?

If the DVLA decided that from now on you had to do a driving lesson with a professional instructor every couple of years, with the prospect of not having your driving licence renewed if they didn't like your style, would you be as supportive of the idea as you seem to be of this one?

At a guess, probably not.

MB

[BEagle]

The training flying is not a test.

[BEagle]

The training has to be on any Class for which you hold a Class Rating.

So, for 3-axis Microlight pilots, 60 min differences training on flexwings would be fine. Or perhaps some Microlight seaplane differences training?

For SSEA Rating holders, some tailwheel conversion and/or UH aeros - again OK.

If you hold Microlight and SSEA Class Ratings, mix 'n match the above as you wish. The idea is to improve and/or extend your flying skills, not to trap you.

[MadamBreakneck]

The idea is to improve and/or extend your flying skills, not to trap you.So to continue my analogy - it's like being forced to spend an hour every couple of years with a qualified driving instructor to be able to continue to drive... even if I choose to take that in a rally car or a 4WD event, or even just give a driving instructor a lift to the shops, I would still have to do it one way or the other or my driving licence becomes invalid. No?

Somebody please explain the point of making it compulsory (with the associated paperwork and potential new offences, etc). How will it improve flying? I mean, if somebody is forced to fly with an instructor who wouldn't otherwise do it they're not really take much away from teh event, are they?

I'm not trying to be difficult, honest:ouch:, I'm just trying to understand what will be the law and what will be the guidance to Their Worships when somebody eventually gets nabbed by CAA Enforcement Branch for flying with an invalid licence.

MB

[homeguard]

Madam Breakneck

All I can say to you is that since the inception of the revalidation flight I have never experienced resentment. In some cases it is interpreted beforehand as a kind of test - it is not!

I probably do a couple of such flights each week. I always stress that it is not a test before we fly. I fully involve the rating holder in deciding on the content. They are then usually open about their needs once they understand it is not a test and that there is to be no other outcome other than a benefit.

Together we are usually able to identify a weakness and I hope in an interesting way work on that. I'm always pleased by and have obviously done my job when the comment, walking back to the clubhouse, is "I enjoyed that".

[xrayalpha]

BEagle,

You mentioned:

"one reply copied one hundred times? Not so. As stated in the Consultation Response Document CRD 01-06:"

Is that the correct number - can't find a CRD 01-06 on the CAA web site.

Very best,

XA

[BEagle]

No it isn't! I was stating a general point; it is not difficult to spot orchestrated responses.

The percentage of addressees - including the suspected orchestrated respondents - who objected to the revised revalidation criteria was less than 1.5%.

[kestrel539]

At the risk of getting flamed, I’ve never seen so many starving people arguing over the type of icing on the cake that has been placed before them.
If you don’t like what you have to do under the NPPL, then go JAAPPL.
Its probably all going to change under EASA anyway, so keep your powder dry until then.
Also, as an ex driving instructor, who has had quite a few pupils through my hands for retraining, a bi-annual “check drive” with an ADI would be no bad thing for the majority of drivers.

[neilb2nd]

Kestrel, I don't do flaming - but the points remain the same and I still haven't had a considered answer to any of them:


1. We now have different regimes for people flying the same (microlight)aircraft dependent on whether they hold an older (PPL) or newer (NPPL) licence. Recent Microlight pilots have no choice whether to hold an NPPL or not - it's the sole licence available.

2. It adds cost for no demonstrated benefit. No-one has produced any evidence to say that microlight NPPL holders have any more accidents than old microlight PPL holders. No one has produced any evidence that an instructor flight every two years would reduce the accident rate for either group.

3. The revalidation requirements for current microlight pilots are quite simple - 5hrs in the previous 13 months. This is not complicated. Of the 2500 or so NPPL licences issued, some 2000 or so are microlight pilots. The BMAA did not support the addition of an instructor flight. We seem to have 'harmonised' 90% of pilots with 10%.


I have no problem with putting forward some good practice in flying. Without trying I could think of half a dozen 'good ideas' that wold be useful to do as a pilot - none of them merit being made mandatory.

I strongly believe that anything that adds cost to our flying needs to be justified. Properly, with facts and figures.

How many people on the NPPL steering group actually fly on an NPPL?

[neilb2nd]

Beagle - can you answer a specific question please?

It's been suggested elsewhere that a microlight instructional hour could only be taken on a Type Approved microlight, or in a solely-owned homebuilt, - on the basis that paid instruction is only allowed in these circumstances. I.e. that those of us flying a group owned homebuilt could not use this aircraft for a revalidation flight

If applied, this seem outside the spirit of the intention. However much fun practising PFLs in a different aircraft or flying a flexwing with reversed controls from three axis might be - it's unlikely to help my flying much in the way that I presume is intended?

[bar shaker]

In saying that microlights have kept chipping away at the weight limit shows that BEagle has a very limited knowledge of the class. There has only been one weight limit increase in modern times, from 390kg to 450kg MAUW and this was to harmonise UK microlights with those in Europe.

In actual fact, European microlights are generally heavier than UK versions as they use a different reserve figure for pilot and fuel weight in the MAUW calculation.

When looking at the safety of UK microlight pilots, we are amongst the safest in the world and are better than most countries that have mandatory training requirements.

The NPPL P&SG cannot show a reason for revalidation changes to be imposed on microlight NPPL owners, other than saying 'because we have to do it in GA'. That's not a good enough reason and certainly not a reason to change the licenses of 90% of NPPL holders.

I am all for encouraging on-going training, I am not for mandating it. Neither were the CAA Microlight Panel of Examiners, but their views were also ignored by the P&SG when they officially rejected the need for on-going training. Consider that the panel is made up from the most experienced microlight instructors in the UK.

And I am certainly not for letting someone legally fly a light aircraft with only 1 hour on the class in the previous 2 years. The NPPL P&SG proposals contain this exact change. How can that be safe?

To say that responders expressing the same views as others were part of a concerted effort to influence the committee is arrogance beyond belief. Why would anyone respond to an RIA if not to influence the outcome?

Should all signatures, after the first one, be discounted on a petition?

Microlights are the only growth sector in European aviation. The jealousy and and hatred of them in BEagle's post (how Gucci is my aircraft?) shows that he is certainly not fit to decide on how microlight pilots should be licensed. How the CAA could have allowed 6 organisations representing 10% of license holders to rule over 1 organisation representing 90%, is a question that needs answering. UK microlights and their pilots are amongst the very heaviest regulated in Europe. Do not be surprised if they do not want yet more regulation.

The NPPL proposals are a serious erosion of microlight freedoms and this is not over yet.

[Just an Engineer]

No it isn't! I was stating a general point; it is not difficult to spot orchestrated responses.

Sorry can't see the problem with a orchestrated response....Is that not the point of objections (Even if it a cut and paste) :}

When you sign a petion is that not a 'orchestrated response' ? Does that make your point any less valid ?

When you march down down London (for instance) in a assembly is that not a orchestrated response. ? Does that make your point any less valid ?

When you write a letter to your Bank manager complaining about bank charges and ask for a refund (which hundreds of people have done by cutting and pasting templates from a websites such as moneysavingexpert.com) Does that make your request for a refund any less vaild ?

If you search the internet there are hundreds of standard template compaint forms for cut and pasting for just about anything. Does that make them invalid ?

Sorry cut and paste objections/responses is just product of our times. Providing they are adequatley scrutinised so there is no abuse (same adressee etc.) then they are perfectly valid :*

[Shortsighted Gink]

Firstly I apologise to all for leaping into the middle of a...um...'lively discussion' but I have two questions about the changes, and BEagle would appear to be the most knowledgable authority I have currently found. I have copies of the ANO and the Amendment No 2, but would like some independent clarification of my understanding.

I am a holder of an SSEA NPPL. It is valid under the 'rolling validation' system (1.8 hr training flight May 2007, 12hrs TT/9hrs P1 in last year). However, due to various reasons I need to take some time off from GA. Under the current system my NPPL will be invalid by May due TT; hence if I transferred to the new system I could theoretically take quite some time out without invalidation. I have a club currency check flight in March, and would quite like to use it as an NPPL revalidation flight to get on the new system.

Q1 I understand that an NPPL holder transfers onto the new system at the next revalidation flight. Am I correct in thinking that the flight under 'the new system' is the same as the 'old system' ie with an instructor (not an examiner)? And that the Certificate of Revalidation (when they are available) is signed by an examiner to say he is satisfied you have the appropriate TT + P1 time + 1hr flight with an instructor? The reason for my question is that the CFI at my club has put a notice in the clubhouse saying that henceforth, the NPPL revalidation flights need to be with an Examiner....

Q2 If, having revalidated for the next 24 months I chose to take lessons in a 3 axis microlight with a view to getting that rating, would the microlight P.U.T. time count toward my total time for the next revalidation...?

Many thanks:ok:

[Just an Engineer]

The percentage of addressees - including the suspected orchestrated respondents - who objected to the revised revalidation criteria was less than 1.5%.…


…There are…lies, damned lies, and statistics

I think you are being very disingenuous there with your figures and suggest you think again….:}

Lets see, I can’t comment on the exact breakdown as I have no actual figures however some of the respondents to this thread have quoted figures of only 10% ruling over 90 % of people affected by this revalidation. If this is the case then your quoted figure of 1.5% figure objection is totally erroneous….(I will leave you the fairly trivial exercise of working out the actual percentage of objections based on the above figures…)

Try again….:ugh: :ugh:

[BlueRobin]

There will be an AIC released soon aiui

[S-Works]

I am a little lost about the emotion of the replies here. I really don't understand the issue with having an hour with an Instructor every couple of years to keep things sharp. As an Instructor I do 2 or 3 a week of these and everyone who does them think they are great value.

I do my ME/IR renewal every year and that gives me my hour or so with an Instructor as a flight test, always good value.

As a microlight pilot albeit with only around 300hrs the standard of airmanship often displayed by ML pilots will benefit from an hour with an Instructor. The comments about the hot ships is valid as well, ML pilots are flying increasingly faster and more capable aircraft, they should ensure that they are safe in the same way as the old 'slow' spam can drivers.

[BEagle]

I am a holder of an SSEA NPPL. It is valid under the 'rolling validation' system (1.8 hr training flight May 2007, 12hrs TT/9hrs P1 in last year). However, due to various reasons I need to take some time off from GA. Under the current system my NPPL will be invalid by May due TT; hence if I transferred to the new system I could theoretically take quite some time out without invalidation. I have a club currency check flight in March, and would quite like to use it as an NPPL revalidation flight to get on the new system.

Q1 I understand that an NPPL holder transfers onto the new system at the next revalidation flight.

YES

Am I correct in thinking that the flight under 'the new system' is the same as the 'old system' ie with an instructor (not an examiner)?
NOT QUITE – it is no longer a single flight but a total of 60 min. But conducted with an authorised instructor – does not need to be a FE.

And that the Certificate of Revalidation (when they are available) is signed by an examiner to say he is satisfied you have the appropriate TT + P1 time + 1hr flight with an instructor?

YES – the CofR is signed by an Examiner.

The reason for my question is that the CFI at my club has put a notice in the clubhouse saying that henceforth, the NPPL revalidation flights need to be with an Examiner....

WHY?? There is no such ANO requirement.

Q2 If, having revalidated for the next 24 months I chose to take lessons in a 3 axis microlight with a view to getting that rating, would the microlight P.U.T. time count toward my total time for the next revalidation...?

NO – you first have to add the Microlight Class Rating to your licence if you wish to benefit from consolidated revalidation requirements.

bose-x - it is clear that many people on here do protest too much.....

[neilb2nd]

BEagle, Now that you're talking to us again, can you answer a specific question please?

It's been suggested elsewhere that a microlight instructional hour could only be taken on a Type Approved microlight, or in a solely-owned homebuilt, - on the basis that paid instruction is only allowed in these circumstances. I.e. that those of us flying a group owned homebuilt could not use this aircraft for a revalidation flight

If applied, this seem outside the spirit of the intention. However much fun practising PFLs in a different aircraft or flying a flexwing with reversed controls from three axis might be - it's unlikely to help my flying much in the way that I presume is intended?

[bar shaker]

bose-x - it is clear that many people on here do protest too much.....

Amongst those that 'do protest too much' are the CAA Panel of Microlight Examiners and the Chairman of the BMAA Training Committee.

[Shortsighted Gink]

WHY?? There is no such ANO requirement.

My thoughts exactly! Hence my wading through the ANO as best I can. I detect a combination of confusion and a lack of drive to understand, though the CFI didn't seem to want to discuss it...

Hopefully, by the time I do the flight, the light bulb will have come on over his head - but I will make sure the instructor signs up my logbook in any case.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

[Shortsighted Gink]

would the microlight P.U.T. time count toward my total time for the next revalidation...?

NO – you first have to add the Microlight Class Rating to your licence if you wish to benefit from consolidated revalidation requirements.

Am I correct in thinking that to add the microlight rating to my current SSEA NPPL, I just need to pass the Microlight GFT and the oral Aircraft Type exam?

[BEagle]

Shortsighted Gink - see the 'Licence Allowances' tab on www.nppl.co.uk and
you will find the requirements.


neilb2nd - I cannot answer that question as it is an airworthiness issue, not a licensing issue.

[C42]

Beagle, is your way of preaching!!

this is what i get from your WWW.nppl.co.uk (http://www.nppl.co.uk) link!!

HeART of God Festival

7 - 11 August 2008

Bringing the Heart of God into the Heart of Europe (Austria)!
Austria
Austria







<DIV class=container><DIV class=navigation>Prophetic Workshop (http://austrianmission.at/home.html) Participate & Present (http://austrianmission.at/entry.html) March for Jesus (http://austrianmission.at/march.html) Film Festival (http://austrianmission.at/film.html) Song Contest (http://austrianmission.at/song.html)
Song Contest. Live-on-Stage!
(One of the events of the HeART of God Festival)
<FONT size=5>When? August 11, 20082. The contestants commit themselves to participate in the AMSC at their own expense, to be free for performances on the Song Contest day, as well as to be available without compensation for possible rehearsals, press conferences, interviews, and the like. Please bring your passport or identity card to the Song Contest. A responsible adult must accompany and co-sign for those who are 17 or younger.</P>3. Songs will be judged based on originality, melody, composition and lyrics. The quality of performance and production will not be considered. During the AMSC, the background music can be pre-recorded, but the singing must be live. The contestants consent to participate in the event WITHOUT compensation. Accommodation and food are NOT provided to the participants. Journey costs are NOT compensated.
4. If a contestant belongs to the circle of friends of a Juror, then this juror cannot take part in the evaluation of this contestant. The decisions of the jury are accepted as binding and irrevocable. A challenge of the decision of the jury on the course of law is impossible.
5. If, after judging and the allocation of prizes, a contestant is discovered to have breached the conditions of participation, the contestant will be stripped of that award.
6. If you would like to submit a song / composition (or two or three) to AMSC, then we kindly ask you to send us your entry:
Entry Requirements. Each entry requires the following:
A. A provisional Demo recording of your complete song (4 minutes in length or less) on a CD, audiocassette, or DVD.
B. Lyrics. (No lyrics necessary for instrumental compositions.) Note: If the Lyrics, or parts of the Lyrics, is not already in English or German, then please include also an English or German translation of the Lyrics.
C. A completed Entry Form with a photo and a photocopy of your passport / identity card.
7. The registration takes place via the signing of the Entry Form and is valid only with the enclosure of the provisional Demo recording on a CD, Audiocassette, or DVD. The provisional Demo recording should contain only the song (or songs or instrumental composition[s]) intended for the Song Contest.No other forms are needed.
8. Please note that the songs of the Austrian Mission Song Contest (AMSC) may have already been sung at other festivals or contests. Songs may have multiple co-writers, but please name only one writer on the application. If your song wins an award, then the designated writer is responsible for the division of the award to all other writers.
9. The AMSC is not responsible for entries that are late, lost, damaged, misdirected, stolen, or misappropriated, or where the postage is not fully paid; and is also not responsible for faulty files or Internet uploads, if applicable.

10. Entry submission means that AMSC can use the names, likenesses, and voices of the winners without additional compensation for future advertising and publicity purposes. Entries cannot be returned. The number of participants is limited. With the submission of an entry, the contestant acknowledges the conditions of participation. Conditions of Participations are subject to change without prior notice.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Entry Form (Please print out this portion.)

I am in agreement with the Conditions of Participations, and I confirm that my statements are true and valid:
Date and Place: ______________________________________________
Date of Birth: ________________________________________________
Name*: ______________________________________________________
*Print Your Name in capital letters. You need to register your name as it appears on your passport or identity card.
Signature**: __________________________________________________
**A responsible adult must accompany and co-sign for those who are 17 or younger.
Full Address: ________________________________________
___________________________________________________
___________________________________________________
___________________________________________________

Telephone Number & Mobile Number: __________________________
Email: ________________________________________________________

Song Title: ______________________________________________
Song Category: __________________________________________
Composer: ______________________________________________
Running Time: ___________________________________________
(Note: If you want to enter more songs, please continue to write on the reverse side.)

Exact Name of the Group, including the Interpreter (Singer or Musician):
____________________________________________________________ __
Name and Email addresses of the contributory people (Band, choirs, etc.): ____________________________________________________________ __
____________________________________________________________ __
____________________________________________________________ __

I have enclosed the following:
A. A provisional Demo recording.
B. Lyrics (if applicable).
C. A photo and a photocopy of my passport / identity card.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please post your entries to:
Song Contest
Altschlaining 52
A-7461 Stadtschlaining
Austria
Europe

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


German Version:
Song Contest. Live-On-Stage!
http://kunstfestival.at/liedwettbewerb.html (http://kunstfestival.at/liedwettbewerb.html)








Restitution

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Be a Volunteer in Austria (http://austrianmission.at/missionary.html)and

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[bean_ian]

http://www.nppl.uk.com/

[BEagle]

Oh bugger - sorry!

www.nppl.uk.com (http://www.nppl.uk.com) it is!!

Dare I click on 'Kunstfestival'.....:eek:

[C42]

LOL!!

Dave