Spinning Givebacks

[BlueRobin]

Despite being a complete novice to the world of spinning, on my FIR course I am expected to give back spinning to my instructor. An odd concept... I'm therefore curious to know what your instructor or examiner pulled on you - any ideas?


BR

[foxmoth]

Not sure you need to "give back" spinning on the FI course unless you are getting the no aeros restriction lifted, I think on the basic course you just need to learn spin recovery in case a student cocks up and you need to recover because of this - you are not expected to teach it. I would expect a thorough briefing and then demo from the instructor running the course before practice by yourself, probably built up in stages (recognising spin, then recovery - you might not even be taught entry, though I think most will teach it.) If you are required to give it back then it will only be after you have been taught it in the first place.:}

[TheOddOne]

An odd concept... I'm therefore curious to know what your instructor or examiner pulled on you - any ideas?



Not sure what you mean by 'give back'.

I can only say what happened on my course, last year. You are required to demonstrate recovery from a spin during your test, but not to teach it, so...

Whenever we had the opportunity to climb to 4,000' during the course, we'd do so at the end of a particular session and practice spin entry and recovery. I did patter through what I was doing, but I'm not sure if this is strictly necessary on the test, providing the recovery is clearly demonstrated. Personally, I think it is better to talk through what you're doing so that if it is less than perfect, then the examiner will at least understand what you were trying to achieve. I did my course and test on C152s. Entry was: wings level, reduce power to 1500 RPM, gradually raise the nose, keeping in balance and level flight, smoothly and progressively pull back on the controls until the aircraft stalls, apply full left rudder. Aircraft enters an autorotative condition to the left (stand back for plenty of arguments from people saying 'this isn't a proper spin' - just ignore them!). Close throttle and ensure ailerons centralised. After 2 turns - count them out loud - apply opposite rudder and centralise elevator. Spin should stop promptly. Recover from ensuing dive as for stall recovery. Make sure that you follow proper POH instructions for the type you're flying.

There'll be many arguments I'm sure about the rights and wrongs of the above. Hope it isn't as many pages as the thread about log book entries!

Cheers,
TheOddOne

[foxmoth]

stand back for plenty of arguments from people saying 'this isn't a proper spin' - just ignore them!


To know if it is a spin or not look at the ASI once you are in - if the speed is low and oscillating it is a spin, if it is increasing then it is a spiral dive, in my experience a C150/152 nearly always ends up in the later, the autorotative bit at the beginning is the incipient spin, not the spin itself.:ugh:

[kwachon]

I was taught to reduce airspeed to 50 knots then put in a nose up attitude pulling the yolk all the way back and apply full left or right rudder, aircraft would usually go inverted and start spinning right away. :}

[BlueRobin]

Thanks guys.

"Give back" may be a local term - it is where the student FI teaches the instructor (or in the case of mutual, the course buddy) the air exercise in question.

I would imagine therefore, based on the above statements, I may be going one further for completeness. Or the FI has a wicked sense of humour and hasn't let on yet!

I had heard of the issues with the 150. We're spinning on a Robin 2160 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=belyzGwZXQ0) by the way. Apparently if one were to the "French recovery method" no forward stick input is used.

[homeguard]

What student or pilot is going to inadvertently place the aircraft inverted leading into a spin as described ! I assure you it will never happen. However;

1) You must be able to demonstrate and breakdown into small elements the entry into the spin in order to educate the student with the likely factors that may lead to an in-advertant spin.

2) the student must be given time within the spin to identify it correctly but following through your instruction.

3) the student must understand the particular recovery action for their aircraft. The standard spin recovery actions will work however on most if not all aircraft although it should be stressed that it is not always the best method given a particular type. Following your demo, repeat to allow the student to undertake the recovery themselves. (handing over)

Never yank the control column full aft leaving the nose precariously pointing at the heavens followed by a boot full of rudder for that is nonsense. The student will simply end up in neverland and from it learn zilt other than fear! It is not necessary to scare anyone that way.

One method is to maintain some power and bring the aircraft slowly toward the stall condition. Prior to the stall apply rudder fully BUT smoothly, maintain and then, and only then, with yaw achieved apply full back pressure (a sudden jolt is not necessary). The aircraft will quicken in rotation and enter the spin. That is about as close as you can get in simulating the un-intended spin, which is the real concern. The symtoms and aircaft characteristics of the spin should then be identified and the correct recovery taught BUT always involving the student. They should not be scared anymore than they already may be!

Like it or not the fully developed spin and recovery is still part of the PPL syllabus although not mandatory and as an instructor it should be within your competance. Choose or not whether you will ever teach it once qualified.

[Dan Winterland]

Entry and recovery depends on the aircraft type. I've spun 5 different aircraft types as part of my professional flying duties, there were three different entry techniques involved and all had different recovery methods.

Read the POH, know the entry technique and definately know the correct recovery. Better still, fly with an instructor who knows the correct techniques and practice.

[the dean]

hi blue,

well i suppose you post speaks volumes.

i'm in JAAland but i think our pre JAA and indeed our current training courses were and perhaps still are very similar.

when the spin was dropped from the course, the feeling was that it should still be demonstrated to a student to let him/her see what it entailed and how the recovery was executed...just in case they ever got into that situation..( as in an inadvertant spin while distracted by an emergency...which has happened many times). it was no longer necessary to spend an hour doing one to the right and one to the left in order to certify for the logbook...

however in JAAland..for the instructors certificate it is still on the course and the flight test...to demonstrate recovery from the incipient stage....and by the way ...its not what the examiner ''pulls'' on you...its on the course. the only thing as you say we ''pull'' on a candidate is some form of emergency situation that a student might create...like freezing on or letting go the controls at the last moment before touchdown..to ensure the instructor is ready to take positive control should that be required. otherwise the flight test is set on paper and there are no surprises.

if you agree as an istructor ( and your flying school also )and if you aircraft is cleared for it, that it is still good to demonstrate the stall and particularly recovery from incipient stage..do'nt you think its a good idea that it should ( particularly since you do'nt seem to have been taught it nor had it demonstrated to you before ) , to have it on your course...and if your FI flight test is like ours, it is mandatory in any event.

good luck with your course...and safe flying. i am sure you will enjoy the course.:ok:

gear up.

[llanfairpg]

I recognise the term 'give-back' and did the spinning part of my course in a certain green DR2160 from the club next door, so suspect you're somewhere in Warwickshire with PP :}

'Give back' is a standard term in FI courses.

As an instructor you should be able to teach spinning and recovery(IMHO), so you should be able to patter the entry and recovery but also the spin indications such as the ASI and Turn Coordinator, plus altitude loss on the altimeter.

[apollo85]

:bored: - homeguard

What student or pilot is going to inadvertently place the aircraft inverted leading into a spin as described ! I assure you it will never happen


Im not sure how much instructing you have done in your time...but here is some food for thought.

Again not knowing your experience or "type" of student you are teaching has a lot to do with the events you will face as an instructor. I worked at a sausage factory which cranked out 100 indian piltos a year (no racism intended!), but each culture and age, be it asian, indian, anglo etc etc bring different abilities and situational awarness... how about this one.

issue 1:
I was doing a company check on a PPL guy who had 200 hours! i try to say as little as possible on the first cct as i like to see what they bring to the table- You do a practice EFATO - at 200 ft they lower the nose (preety happy about this at that stage) the student then put their head inside the cockpit and decide to do abbout 40 bloody checks.... (you dont say a thing coz you wanna see how they manage it - be it wrong or right!) they then say "going around" - at this point we are 100 ft off the ground and they have lost concentration and are slowly pitching the nose up ad the stall warning is going (i am prepared to take over at any second - still witing for him to realise!) i say "where were you planning to land????" - the student proceeds to tell me he is going to land back on the runway!!!) - i am in complete SHOCK at this stage at his answer, this was followed almost suddenly by a violent pull at the yoke as he ACTUALLY tried to land back at the runway!! NO JOKE! AND YOU CANT SEE HOW A STUDENT COULD EVER GET YOU INTO A SPIN! add it up. 100 ft off the ground, 5-10kts off the stall and the student tries to pull a 60 deg steep turn back to the runway! - YOU WANNA HOPE YOUR STRONGER AND FASTER AND THEY WILL ACTUALLY LISTEN TO YOU WHEN YOU SAY TAKING OVER! GOOD LUCK!

issue 2: take your student out in a c182 completely loaded to the brim (use water tanks if you dont have pax) - the idea being to show them why we dont use full flap in a 182 when at MTOW - Now when you do a go around at MTOW with full flap the 182 has a viloent pitch up which if you are not on straight away i can promise this will advertanly lead to a stall, followed yb a spin, very low to the ground! - again easy to recognise if you see it coming - but had you not known it would do this your in for a v. big suprise!!!

anyway - instrctors add your stories and comments spo homegaurd can understand the 4 million ways a student can get you in trouble so he is a little more careful when taking a student out!

oh one more - on take off - you dont see a bird and your student happens to and panics, they of course jam back the yoke in a climbing steep uncoordinated turn - again i hope you've got fast reflexes!

[homeguard]

Apollo 85

Life dosn't seem to be treating you very fairly.

Just the same in none of your examples did the student enter a spin by first pointing the nose vertically upwards, deliberately become inverted and then enter a spin from a boot full of rudder, which was my only point.

I daresay from your experiences so far that you have reverted to the standard practice of briefing beforehand on the content of the flight, rather than leaving it wholly to chance.

Thou reaps that which thy does sow!