Air Canada co-pilot falls ill during flight

[Bearcat]

from Irish newspaper


Flight diverted after co-pilot fell ill
Tuesday, 29 January 2008 07:39

An international flight travelling from Canada had to be diverted to Shannon Airport after a crew member in the cockpit fell ill.

The flight was on route from Toronto to London yesterday when it was forced to land.

The co-pilot was taken to a psychiatric hospital in the mid-west.


All 300 passengers were accommodated in a local hotel until a new crew arrived at Shannon.

The plane later travelled onwards to London

[Dublinflyer]

I hope he is ok,

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/crew-dragged-copilot-off-jet-at-shannon-after-midair-scare-1276356.html


MORE than a hundred passengers aboard an Air Canada flight from Toronto to London were forced to divert to Shannon yesterday after the co-pilot suffered what appeared to be a nervous breakdown in mid-air.


Officials at Shannon Airport last night confirmed that the male co-pilot was admitted to the psychiatric unit of the Ennis General Hospital in Co Clare yesterday after he was forcibly taken off the flight by fellow crew members and an off-duty member of the Canadian Armed Forces who assisted in restraining him.

Air Canada flight AC848, en route from Toronto's Pearson International Airport to London Heathrow, was diverted to Shannon with less than an hour to go before reaching its intended destination after the co-pilot began "acting in a peculiar manner and was talking loudly to himself," during the transatlantic crossing, according to aviation sources.

The Boeing 767-333 series jet, carrying 149 passengers, including three infants, landed safely at Shannon shortly before 8am yesterday where a medical doctor and ambulance crew were waiting to attend to the co-pilot.

Stunned passengers, some of whom are believed to have witnessed the bizarre scene, were taken to local hotels to await a replacement cabin crew in order to continue their journey on to London.

Air traffic controllers at Shannon were notified by the captain that his colleague was "unwell" and he required permission to divert the flight to seek medical attention.

Psychiatric

Officials from the Health Service Executive (HSE) said the co-pilot was assessed at the scene before being taken to the Acute Psychiatric Unit at the Mid-Western Regional Hospital in Ennis for further assessment.

He remained at the unit last night but the HSE refused to comment on his condition.

An airport spokesman confirmed that the "medical diversion" took place but there was no official emergency declared by the pilot.

"The plane diverted to Shannon after a cockpit crew member became unwell. The first officer was taken to hospital and the passengers were taken to local hotels," he said.

Air Canada ordered a replacement crew from London which arrived around noon yesterday and passengers continued on their journey to London, arriving close to eight hours behind schedule at 4:15pm yesterday.

Shirley Mah, spokeswoman for the state-owned airline, did not return phone calls on the incident yesterday.

However, the company said in a written statement last night: "The captain and crew of AC 848 followed standard operating procedures in light of the co-pilot falling ill. The captain elected to divert to Shannon and landed without incident. At no time was safety compromised."

The airline refused comment on the nature of his illness except to say: "The flight was met by medical personnel and the individual is now in hospital care. We do not provide additional details of a personal nature."

It is understood the incident will be investigated by Air Canada and the Transportation Safety Board in Canada which is responsible for regulating airlines and investigating aviation accidents in that country.

[Sobelena]

I wish the fellow a speedy and full recovery. However, I'm surprised that this is not getting more PPRuNe attention than it is. Just like a recent accident, this incident asks a lot of questions. It would be interesting to see the final report to this event too. I'm not talking about details of the poor chap's illness but aspects of early identification, possible prevention and eventual safety.

[Zyox]

Yeah I could see a first officer not wanting to speak out loudly about signs of something like that if he/she saw it in the captain, but the other way around?

Surely he must have given off some signs...
Bit worrying really.

[Bobbsy]

I'll add my good thoughts for the pilot involved.

However, I'll add that it must have been a very unpleasant experience for the Captain involved. I had a similar episode once with a co-worker who suddenly started acting very strangely (it eventually turned out to be manic depressive disorder) and it was totally un-nerving for me and all the others he encountered. It was bad enough at ground level--I can only imagine how it must have been on a small flight deck at 30,000 feet.

As for advance signs, all I can say is that in the case of my colleague, one minute we were discussing an electronic wiring issue and the next he was claiming to be Jesus Christ and offering to perform miracles for his friends. There was no warning.

Bobbsy

[sevenstrokeroll]

Its pretty close on flying time , but did they have a third pilot/international relief officer?

I've always felt that airlines don't do a complete and adequate job of analyzing the psyche of perspective pilots...and protecting the mental health of pilots during their careers.

[jurassic]

Relief Officer not required by Transport Canada. They say we don't get tired until after 14 hours no matter what time of day our flight departs at.
We are machines you know!

[Check Airman]

Relief Officer not required by Transport Canada. They say we don't get tired until after 14 hours no matter what time of day our flight departs at.

FOURTEEN hours:eek:

You're kidding right? Is there any particular reasoning behind this? No wonder this guy lost it. Wish him a speedy recovery. Good job to the captain.

[cod liver oil]

According to this gentleman (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9153029&postcount=3), the F/O had to be restrained.

I wonder if the captain had any help arriving SNN??

cod

[smith747]

It is is tempting to sell productivity (in terms of hard earned extra pilot agreements of the past) for a new pay or pension deal.

The result can be a two pilot operation on sectors of 10 to 12 hours or more.

This can lead to a creeping fatigue that builds up over the work pattern.

A pilot with stress (domestic or otherwise and sometimes difficult to detect when it is yourself) is already headed for a breakdown.

He is like a teapot that is nearly full of domestic stress and / or relationship problems before he starts. Add to this lack of sleep and fatigue because of a two crew operation and then the teapot overflows ... a classic nervous breakdown when irrational behaviour starts to happen.... the flow is reversed.

Airlines need to consider duty hours and crewing very carefully.

Retired 747 P1

[Longtimer]

Confused re duty day remarks. The sked time for the flight is only 7hr20mins plus of course pre and post departure crew time. Are the flights operated by other carriers between YYZ & LHR operating with 3 person cockpit crews as one could assume by some of the previous posts?

[rubik101]

Consecutive 11 to 12 hour, multi-sector duty days are not uncommon in this business so why would AC need 3 crew for the single leg, Toronto to London?
Illness, in any shape or form is liable to occur at any time in any given percentage of the population. So why are people surprised when it occurs to a pilot? I know we are treated like tireless machines but we are just as human as the next man. Screening or whatever you want to call it is only as good as the last assessment session and hence, virtually pointless.
Stresses build up within people for any number of reasons and we all handle them differently. This poor guy apparently had enough stress to tip him over his personal control threshold. His inability to deal with it in this instance should not condemn him to be pilloried by the media and certainly not by us here on pprune. Leave him alone; next time it might be you.
I hope he gets better soon. With proper treatment and perhaps some appropriate medication, I trust he will.
Dr Rubik

[Airbubba]

It's a real Catch 22 in the flying business. If you're not feeling well mentally and seek medical help, you're out of work until you can prove to the feds that your disability was transient. If some shrink pens a diagnosis, however speculative, your career may well be over.

Over the years I've know a few colleagues that have had mental issues. Some returned to flying, most did not.

If your poor mental state can somehow be blamed on drugs or alcohol, you may have some job protection in the U.S. under the Americans with Disabilities Act.

There was a similar inflight crew mental issue on QF months ago:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=251530

[apaddyinuk]

Very sad incident altogether, even more unfortunate in that the FO felt he was unable to bring whatever is problems were to the attention of his manager or at least the captain on the day.
Does AC operate a confidential counselling service for its crew such as BA's Crewcare?

[RobertS975]

As a physician, I would just like to remind everyone that there are plenty of medical conditions that can mimic psychiatric illness and cause bizarre behaviour such as metabolic encephalopathy due to diabetes, liver disease, kidney disease etc., infectious causes such as encephalitis, brain tumors or temporal lobe seizures.

I am surprised that the chap was taken directly to a psych facility without metabolic and organic causes being excluded.

[PJ2]

Does AC operate a confidential counselling service for its crew such as BA's Crewcare?
Yes. AC is an absolutely first class responder with long-established employee health programs and policies.

I wish the pilot well and hope for a speedy recovery. Clearly, asking for names here is entirely inappropriate.

Canadian Flight Time and Duty Day regulations are draconian.

Domestically, a fourteen-hour duty day with two pilots is legal.

Where a bunk is provided and the flight is augmented by one pilot, (to 3 pilots), a duty day of 20 hours is legal in Canada and if there are "unforeseen circumstances", (as seen by the bean counters...?), a duty day of 23 hours is legal in Canada.

Here are the Standards for Flight Time and Duty Day Regulations from the CARS (Canadian Air Regulations (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part7/Standards/720.htm#720_15) -Standards):

DIVISION II - STANDARDS FOR FLIGHT TIME AND FLIGHT DUTY TIME LIMITATIONS AND REST PERIODS

720.15 Flight Time Limitations
The standards for increasing the flight time limitations for flight crew members are:

(1) Where the flight is conducted under Subpart 2 (http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/RegServ/Affairs/cars/Part7/702.htm) or 3 (http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/RegServ/Affairs/cars/Part7/703.htm) of Part VII of the Canadian Aviation Regulations or with a deHavilland DHC-6 aircraft not conducting a scheduled passenger service or with a helicopter not conducting a scheduled passenger service or heli-logging, for any 6 non-overlapping periods of 30 consecutive days within a 365 consecutive day period, the maximum flight time in any aircraft shall not exceed:

(amended 1998/03/23; previous version (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part7/Version/720001.htm))
(a) where the flight crew member conducts single-pilot IFR operations, 8 hours in any 24 consecutive hours;

(b) 60 hours in any 7 consecutive days;

(c) 150 hours in any 30 consecutive days;

(d) 210 hours in any 42 consecutive days;

(amended 1998/03/23; previous version (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part7/Version/720001.htm))
(e) 450 hours in any 90 consecutive days;

(amended 1998/03/23; previous version (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part7/Version/720001.htm))
(f) 900 hours in any 180 consecutive days;

(amended 1998/03/23; previous version (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part7/Version/720001.htm))
(g) the accumulated 30-consecutive day, 42-consecutive day and 90 consecutive day flight times may be reset to zero if the flight crew member is provided with at least 5 consecutive days free from all duty;
and

(amended 1998/03/23; previous version (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part7/Version/720001.htm))
(h) 1200 hours in any 365 consecutive days.

(amended 1998/03/23; previous version (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part7/Version/720001.htm))
(2) For heli-logging operations, the maximum flight time in all flying shall not exceed:

(a) 120 hours in any 30 consecutive days for single-pilot helicopters;

(b) 150 hours in any 30 consecutive days for helicopters operated by two pilots; and

(c) 1,200 hours in any 365 consecutive days.

720.16 Flight Duty Time Limitations and Rest Periods

The standards for increasing the flight duty time limits for flight crew members are:

(1) Where the flight is conducted under Subpart 2 (http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/RegServ/Affairs/cars/Part7/702.htm) or 3 (http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/RegServ/Affairs/cars/Part7/703.htm) of Part VII of the Canadian Aviation Regulations or with a deHavilland DHC-6 aircraft not conducting a scheduled passenger service, or with a helicopter not conducting a scheduled passenger service or heli-logging, for the 6 non-overlapping periods of 30 consecutive days referred to in subsection 720.15(1) (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part7/Standards/720.htm#720_15_1), the maximum flight duty time may be extended to 15 consecutive hours if:

(amended 1998/03/23; previous version (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part7/Version/720002.htm))
(a) the minimum rest period is increased by 1 hour; or

(b) the maximum flight time does not exceed 8 hours in any 24 consecutive hours.

(2) Where the flight is conducted under Subpart 4 (http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/RegServ/Affairs/cars/Part7/704.htm) or 5 (http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/RegServ/Affairs/cars/Part7/705.htm) of Part VII of the Canadian Aviation Regulations using an aircraft other than a helicopter, and the flight crew is augmented by the addition of at least one fully qualified flight crew member, flight duty time may be extended to 15 consecutive hours if:

(amended 1998/03/23; previous version (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part7/Version/720002.htm))
(a) the additional flight crew member occupies a flight deck observer seat during take-offs and landings unless the observer seat is required by an air carrier inspector, in which case, a passenger seat must be available for the flight crew member; and

(amended 1998/03/23; previous version (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part7/Version/720002.htm))
(b) the subsequent minimum rest period is increased by at least 2 hours.

(amended 1998/03/23; previous version (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part7/Version/720002.htm))
(3) Where a flight crew is augmented by the addition of at least one flight crew member, the division of duty and rest is balanced between the flight crew members and a flight relief facility is provided, flight duty time may be extended if:

(a) where a flight relief facility - seat is provided, the flight duty time may be extended to 17 consecutive hours, in which case the maximum flight deck duty time for any flight crew member shall be 12 hours;

(b) where a flight relief facility - bunk is provided, the flight duty time may be extended to 20 consecutive hours, in which case the maximum flight deck duty time for any flight crew member shall be 14 hours;

(c) the subsequent minimum rest period shall be at least equal to the length of the preceding flight duty time; and

(d) a maximum of 3 sectors may be completed.

(4) Where a flight crew is augmented by the addition of at least one flight crew member in accordance with subsections (2) or (3), the total flight time accumulated during the flight shall be logged by all flight crew members for the purposes of calculating the maximum flight times in section 700.15 (http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/RegServ/Affairs/cars/Part7/700.htm#700_15) of the Canadian Aviation Regulations.

(amended 1998/09/01; previous version (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part7/Version/720008.htm))
(5) Where the flight is conducted under Subpart 2 (http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/RegServ/Affairs/cars/Part7/702.htm) of the Canadian Aviation Regulations in aerial application operations, the maximum flight duty time may be extended for a split flight duty assignment provided that:

(a) the total flight duty time shall not exceed 14 hours in 24 consecutive hours;

(amended 1998/03/23; previous version (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part7/Version/720002.htm))
(b) rest periods that allow a total of at least 9 hours opportunity to sleep in 24 consecutive hours shall be taken in suitable accommodation;

(amended 1998/03/23; previous version (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part7/Version/720002.htm))
(c) one of these rest periods shall allow at least 5 consecutive hours opportunity to sleep between 20:00 and 06:00 local time; and

(amended 1998/03/23; previous version (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part7/Version/720002.htm))
(d) the flight crew member shall receive at least 5 periods of 24 consecutive hours free from duty within each 30 consecutive days.

(amended 1998/03/23; previous version (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part7/Version/720002.htm))

720.17 Unforeseen Operational Circumstances
The standards for compliance with this section are:

(1) Flight duty time and flight time limitations may be extended by up to 3 consecutive hours provided that:

(amended 1998/03/23; previous version (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part7/Version/720003.htm))
(a) where flight duty time is extended, the subsequent minimum rest period shall be increased by an amount at least equal to the extension to the flight duty time;

(amended 1998/03/23; previous version (http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regserv/Affairs/cars/Part7/Version/720003.htm))
(b) the pilot-in-command shall notify the air operator, in accordance with procedures outlined in the company operations manual, of the length of and the reason for the extension;

(c) the air operator shall retain the notifications until the completion of the next Department of Transport audit; and

(d) the air operator shall notify the Minister as soon as practicable.

(2) Flights shall be planned to be completed within the maximum flight time and maximum flight duty time taking into account the time necessary for pre-flight and post-flight duties, the flight or series of flights, forecast weather, turn-around times and the nature of the operation.

[M.Mouse]

Does AC operate a confidential counselling service for its crew such as BA's Crewcare?

BA's Crewcare is for cabin crew, pilot's are specifically excluded. There is no company equivalent for pilots.

[marines]

I fail to see why some are so terribly offended at any question about the identity of the person. Beyond the fact that this web site by title alone concerns the "rumour mill", are these same persons who are so terribly offended equally appaled when the name of an accused person charged with a crime and all of his/her personal details are splashed across every media outlet regardless of any verdict having been rendered? Is that not much worse than identifying someone who apparently has control or partial control over the lives of dozens of innocent persons up in the clouds and has to be physically removed from the aircraft due to a serious mental illness, even if episodic? I do not understand. Nobody asked for the fellow's life history; nobody suggested he is a criminal or a bad person; nobody suggested that he not be given treatment and best wishes for the rest of his career. But I challenge one person to say he/she would not want to know that the person in the cockpit of his/her plane had a nervous breakdown in mid-air causing the plane to land immediately, even if alleged. Just my opinion.

[sevenstrokeroll]

bravo to the doctor for mentioning physical problems that mimic mental illness.

low blood sugar or ultra high blood sugar might be a problem ...diabetes is becoming more prevelent at a younger age.

a quick urine drip for sugar etc is not much of a test once or twice a year...

they should do a1ch blood tests.

maybe he ate the fish? ;-0

while it probably wasn't of the same intensity, do we all remember the egyptair crash?

we must, as pilots, take care of ourselves...even if it means more money from the management.

honest, reliable, disability plans, make it easier to report a grounding item, instead of hiding it.

[Helipolarbear]

Poor guy, wait until they release him out of care in Ennis, County Clare...he'll end up in some bar drinking Black Stuff in a pint glass, over and over, and telling anyone who will listen his story.
Hope he recovers well, and enjoys the rest in the west of Ireland. Sure, he'll be grand.:ok:

[sevenstrokeroll]

this is a fine starting place to speak about the problems pilots have and how to deal with them.

funny, its ok to drink (regulation limits apply) but not take anti depressents

and you can get a year of full pay to detox, but you get half pay for being depressed.

nutty world.

[HarryMann]

To some extent, the Garuda Captain ignoring 15 warnings and landing when 98 kts too fast, despite FO advising him against, could be classed as pyschiatric, though a different category, transient... he was certainly under stress at home, whether self-made or otherwise.

[Lost in Saigon]

Canada's duty time regulations are a joke...BUT....

Air Canada has MUCH better rules in their contract. The contract is very complex with lots of rules regarding timezones, number of legs, time of day for departure and arrival, total flight time, total duty day, etc.

Basically any flight scheduled over 9 hours gate to gate gets a relief pilot or augment pilot.

YYZ-LHR, YYZ-CDG, only gets 2 pilots.

YYZ-ZRH, YYZ-FRA, YYZ-FCO gets a relief pilot on the return leg only. (Dead head in the back eastbound)

YVR-LHR, YYC-LHR, YYZ-TLV, Gets 3 pilots both ways.

YYZ-HKG, YVR-SYD gets 4 pilots (1 CA, 2 FO, 1 Relief Pilot)

[exgroundcrew]

I trust most viewers did see this apparent disclosure of the FOs name as a sarcastic response to what looked like a reporter attempting to get some info, although I suggest your really meant the character Captain Clarence Oveur from the movie Airplane, would have been fun seeing the press googling this name to try and dig up some dirt!

[st7860]

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=cd55c45d-e6ae-4ea6-a0f6-e48956e3b008&k=14039

"
"His voice was clear, he didn't sound like he was drunk or anything, but he was swearing and asking for God," he said in an interview from England.
"He specifically said he wants to talk to God."
The airline's spokesman, Peter Fitzpatrick, declined Tuesday to divulge any details about the pilot's medical condition, including confirming media reports that the pilot has been taken to a psychiatric hospital in Shannon, Ireland."

[innuendo]

Hi Smith747:
Quote "It is is tempting to sell productivity (in terms of hard earned extra pilot agreements of the past) for a new pay or pension deal."Quote.

I am sure that you did not intend to imply that the AC pilot group succumbed to the temptation to settle for excessive duty periods in return for sweet deals in terms of pay and pension.
However in Canada, the basics of the situation are that Canadian regs allow for some pretty long duty times as has been mentioned previously in the thread. The AC pilot group have had to spend a lot of their bargaining dollar to negotiate as realistic a duty period they can get. It is a bit frustrating to have to do that when you see other pilot groups operate with more realistic duty rigs courtesy of their national authorities.

[PJ2]

Re Post #26 Innuendo;

At the risk of a mild diversion, since the topic was broached:
The AC pilot group have had to spend a lot of their bargaining dollar to negotiate as realistic a duty period they can get. It is a bit frustrating to have to do that when you see other pilot groups operate with more realistic duty rigs courtesy of their national authorities.
Absolutely correct. Not only that but the YVR - HKG flight quoted earlier was almost always a 3-pilot operation, dead-heading the 4th pilot over and working him/her back. Mach speed-up techniques were frequently employed to avoid requiring the use of the 4th pilot, so opposed was the airline to a 4th pilot. After almost a decade of operation, the 4th pilot was finally established both ways but not before many needless distractions and pre-departure confrontations. The matter was entirely industrial; safety and recognition of fatigue issues never came into the equation and had nothing to do with the outcome, which is, despite all, a good one.

The numbers quoted by another poster on AC's augmentation reflect current contractual requirements. The FT/DD CARS are an atrocious and embarrassing anachronism, the product of ATA lobbying, which all Canadian operators have had to rectify through industrial means, (downloading of costs etc).

WRT [with regard to] the incident under discussion, it is my fervent hope that the person involved is, in time, returned to the line, healthy and fit. As I posted, Air Canada has pioneered many solutions to pilot health issues and is quietly but firmly committed to doing so for it's crews. The airline has excellent health support programs for cockpit and cabin crews. After all, it only makes good business sense as well.

One thing that can be taken from this is, for the fourth time this year we can take heart in knowing that SOPs, training and crew coordination from cool heads "up front", and "in the back" prevailed and the safety of passengers was maintained. The "system" worked. SLF's, (sorry - hate that term), take note: - So far, it has worked four times this year; Training and experience pay.

PJ2

[Liffy]

Quote:

One thing that can be taken from this is, for the fourth time this year (and twice involving Air Canada crews), we can take heart in knowing that SOPs, training and crew coordination from cool heads "up front", and "in the back" prevailed and the safety of passengers was maintained. The "system" worked. SLF's, (sorry - hate that term), take note: - So far, it has worked four times this year; Training and experience pay.

Unquote.

PJ2

Very well said!

[Sallyann1234]

The story has now made it to the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7217977.stm
Strange that we never hear about a bus driver being taken ill, or a train driver.

[PAXboy]

I think that illness amongst train and bus drivers are not reported because their vehicles are already on the ground. The train has automatic braking systems and the bus may hurt a few people if the driver loses conciousness - but as far as the media are concerned - not enough people.

RobertS975 said it right about other conditions. I had been in a conversation with a woman for ten minutes when she lost the power of speech but was vocal. I helped carry her to the first aid facility in the building. I was told a few weeks later that she was diagnosed with a brain tumour. From it growing over time to the moment when it affected her entire body was a change like a light-switch had moved.

It is possible that the local medics in SNN had not seen a case like this before, it is possible that their erred on the side of caution. Doubtless all the tests will be run.

As to those who want to reveal his name? Wait until the press turn up on YOUR family's doorstep to ask about your entire life to date. :*

[Capt.KAOS]

"His voice was clear so he didn't sound drunk or anything. He was swearing and asking for God and very distressed. He basically said he wanted to talk to God."I'm surprised he wasn't immediately transported to Guantanamo Bay?

[rab-k]

Hope the guy gets some well deserved R&R courtesy of a company that cares about their employees enough to put the corporate hand in the coffers when needed.

"Insanity is often the logic of an accurate mind overtasked". ~ Oliver W. Holmes, Sr., The Autocrat of the Breakfast-Table, 1858.

[jackharr]

I'm reminded of a lovely occasion when after landing at XYZ, a
passenger came up to the flight deck (they were allowed to in the days
before 9/11). He was an Irish priest and wanted to give the two
pilots a "New Testament" each.

I declined politely saying that I was an Atheist. The co-pilot was
equally polite in her refusal saying that she was Jewish! The priest
slunk away somewhat chastened.

Jack

[QDMQDMQDM]

It is possible that the local medics in SNN had not seen a case like this before...

This is not all that unusual and there is a standard procedure. In any case of acute psychosis in an otherwise previously mentally healthy person it is standard to exclude an organic cause, such as a brain tumour, before diagnosing and treating psychiatric illness. A lot of brain tumours get diagnosed on psychiatric wards.

Whatevever the final answer, this is undoubtedly a tragedy for this poor fellow.

QDM (GP)

[m500dpp]

reported on Radio 4 tonight. Cruel, should have just said that the pilot was taken ill and the plane landed to get medical assistance and left it at that.

I hope the pilot recovers fully and quickly, my best wishes are with him.

(slf)

[Ranger 1]

I have had first hand experiences of People who have Hypoglycemia, (Low blood sugar) they have ranged from being violent, totaly confused,& irrational, to unconcious.
I saw one instance where a fight on an aircraft was started, then the person was off loaded, only to start another in a departure lounge, before collapsing before getting medical help.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/hypoglycemia/DS00198/DSECTION=2

Speedy recovery to him what ever the diagnosis :ok:

[QDMQDMQDM]

I have had first hand experiences of People who have Hypoglycemia, (Low blood sugar) they have ranged from being violent, totaly confused,& irrational, to unconcious.
I saw one instance where a fight on an aircraft was started, then the person was off loaded, only to start another in a departure lounge, before collapsing before getting medical help.

True hypoglycaemia is an infinitesimally rare diagnosis in anyone who is not already known to be a diabetic and diabetics don't hold pilot's licences. People who say they are 'feeling hypo' generally aren't. They are generally just annoyed and irritable because they are hungry.

[Solnyshko]

Well, as might be expected the press are treating this with due sensitivity :rolleyes:

For those of you denied access to our fine London evening editions...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i320/Solnyshko33/IMG_8152.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i320/Solnyshko33/IMG_8156.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i320/Solnyshko33/IMG_8157.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i320/Solnyshko33/IMG_8158.jpg

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i320/Solnyshko33/IMG_8155.jpg

[iskandra]

...and then some people ask why his name should not be revealed...they would immediately start a witch hunt.

And yes, sometimes perfectly "normal" people do suddenly "crack up". Sometimes they have known themselves that somethings wrong for a while and just didn't show it (due to the above-mentioned reasons), and sometimes...they don't and it comes as a surprise to them as well.

[Airbubba]

True hypoglycaemia is an infinitesimally rare diagnosis in anyone who is not already known to be a diabetic and diabetics don't hold pilot's licences.

Don't know about Canada but diabetics certainly pilot airliners in the U.S., I had a friend with type 2 diabetes brief me on his situation a few days ago. He's back flying the line.

See: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/app_process/exam_tech/item48/amd/diabetes/

[Capt Claret]

I have a female cousin in her mid 30s, the mother of 3 children. Normally she is a quiet, polite, soft and gentle woman.

Feed her gluten (she's only fairly recently been diagnosed as a coeliac) and she swears like a harpy, sufficient to make a wharfie blush. She recognises the onset now but cannot stop the effect and segregates herself until the affects wear off. Food can d strange things to us too.

I hope the poor bugger gets better

[Teal]

while it probably wasn't of the same intensity, do we all remember the egyptair crash?

Actually, I was reminded of the SilkAir crash in Dec 97. Although suicide could not be proven, the NTSB concluded 'intentional pilot action'.

The mental/emotional health of pilots (and ATCs) need to be properly managed. I hope this pilot's employer is supportive and permits him to fly again if he can.

[Mungo Man]

The Times said the Captain was required by standard procedures to wear an oxygen mask for the remainder of the flight becuase he was on his own - is this a normal SOP on longhaul ops because it is not a requirement in my company.

[Unwell_Raptor]

The Times said the Captain was required by standard procedures to wear an oxygen mask for the remainder of the flight becuase he was on his own - is this a normal SOP on longhaul ops because it is not a requirement in my company

Sounds like good belt-and-braces common sense to me. One less thing to worry about for a man who is going to be very busy for a while.

[ACA340]

"The Times said the Captain was required by standard procedures to wear an oxygen mask for the remainder of the flight becuase he was on his own - is this a normal SOP on longhaul ops because it is not a requirement in my company."

This is a very old rule that was changed years ago. I am sure the 767 Capt did not put on his mask. The statement in the paper came from another speculator. The only requirement to wear a mask when you are alone in the cockpit is when you are above FL410. Other than that, the mask has to be readily available which they are with quick doning masks in all airliners.

[meekmok]

This episode puts the knee-jerk reaction of the US Congress proposing to arm airline pilots with guns in a whole new light.....

[Airbubba]

This episode puts the knee-jerk reaction of the US Congress proposing to arm airline pilots with guns in a whole new light.....

Uh, I think it's been more than a proposal for a while now:

http://www.tsa.gov/lawenforcement/programs/ffdo.shtm

[BeechNut]

A couple of quibbles:

hirley Mah, spokeswoman for the state-owned airline, did not return phone calls on the incident yesterday.

I'm sure most of you know that Air Canada has not been a state-owned airline for, oh, some 20 years or so.

True hypoglycaemia is an infinitesimally rare diagnosis in anyone who is not already known to be a diabetic and diabetics don't hold pilot's licences. People who say they are 'feeling hypo' generally aren't. They are generally just annoyed and irritable because they are hungry.


You can pilot an airliner with Type 2 diabetes in Canada:

1) requiring oral medication only (no insulin): unrestricted provided control criteria are met, more frequent ECGs, stress ECG, etc.

2) insulin dependant, provided certain control criteria are met, more tests, etc as above, but license restricted to "as or with co-pilot".

Interestingly an ATP with a class 1 medical can fall into category 2) above, but a PPL with a class 3 is out for good if insulin-dependent.

Beech

[boundless]

Since 9/11 it's been much put about in the media that movie screenplay writers are regularly brought together in think-tanks in order to dream up outlandish terrorist plot scenarios for our security experts to muse over and possibly be 'shaken up' by.

I'm not such a writer; actually I'm a medic, and though not of any psychiatric persuasion, I have had the usual basic training during my time in the military for recognising and dealing expeditiously with what was then called 'battle fatigue'.

In the 1962 film 'The Manchurian Candidate (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056218/)' a former Korean War POW is brainwashed by communists into becoming a political assassin. Yes, it was only a movie.

It's a far stretch to suppose that a contemporary terrorist cell could kidnap and 'turn' the sub-conscious mind of an otherwise stalwart and socially upstanding Canadian pilot but I can't quite leave such a notion completely alone in the bin marked 'wild supposition'.

Anyway, even if such a thing couldn't actually be achieved in real life(as has been widely debated (http://www.psych.upenn.edu/history/orne/orneijceh19722101117.html)), there's no saying it couldn't be attempted.

And the consequence of of such brainwashing following by a triggered instruction to commit an act of anti-social mass destruction would likely be a fairly florid and immediate mental breakdown of the type we have seen happen here. Might what has occurred be in reality a faulty weapon deployment?

I'm pretty certain that if such a thing was to go off 'ping' in my head whilst flying that I'd "want to talk to God and some such" pretty urgently too.

You can head me off as having a couple loose in the top pasture if you like; but I'd be much reassured to know that some sort of wise and sympathetic PsyOps/forensics team, with knowledge of the ins and outs of experimental hypnosis, were up there taking notes with the regular Co. Clare trick cyclist boys.

A bit of perspective:-Common things occur commonly, ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile and real estate has taken a record pounding recently.

[wellsey]

'I think that illness amongst train and bus drivers are not reported because their vehicles are already on the ground. The train has automatic braking systems and the bus may hurt a few people if the driver loses conciousness - but as far as the media are concerned - not enough people'

Not enough people? Tube drivers earn more than alot of First Officers and carry hundreds of passengers....and yet we dont hear of health problems or human factor reports in the media do we?
After several rail accidents and the fatalities involved, why are us aviators targeted so readily?
Here in the Uk the aviation safety record is world class and yet the media love any chance to hang us.
Leave the poor chap alone to recover. After all its why we fly two crew(at least).
If we are looking for something to learn from....a shake up of Canadian flight duty regs?

[rmac]

re meekmok post #46

Imagine trying to restrain a crazy armed pilot ?

Just like aerodynamics, solve one problem, create another !

[Loose rivets]

boundless. Nothing wrong with thinking laterally.

[BusyB]

wellsey,

Train drivers have regular medicals and if failed they are out. No "as or with" when its a single driver.:bored:

[AHM2002]

From someone with a similar case, i expected to come on this forum and see the word "crazy" thrown around and was pleasantly suprised of that not being the case. I WAS a pilot until i had a nervous breakdown. Had many signs that i kept hidden for a few years. Putting on an act everyday i went to work and played the game so to speak. I was extremely unhappy, suicidal thoughts etc etc. I was aware of what depression was, however; never once thought that i was deep in it. It started to affect my physical health as well. I had many heart related tests due to dizzy spells and fainting episodes. I still didn't have an answer for these spells yet, but at least i knew my heart was strong.....
Finally it all came too much to handle and i fell apart. The hardest thing i think i've ever done is call a fellow pilot, who i very much respect and proceeded to tell him that i was going to hand in my resignation because i couldn't do the job anymore. After hearing everything i was going thru, he advised me to contact our pilot assistance program, which i did. That was the best advice i could have received at the time. I called the assistance program and again explained what i was feeling and how it was starting to affect all facets of my life, career and personal. The next step, after calling crew sched to book off the pairing i was starting the next day, was to go see a doctor?? Why go see a doctor if i was just in the wrong career and couldn't handle the "stress"? My problem was not a medical one, or so i thought. To make a long story shorter. I was diagnosed with depression and later on with Bi-Polar type II. My pilot career as it stands now, is over. But because of the exceptional airline i work for, i've continued on in another capacity and i'm extremely excited and happy. I'm on a mood stabilizer and anti-depressants and i feel great, better then i've felt in years!
The moral of the story......I had great support, personally and thru our Pilot assistance program. (i had never met this person before and it's amazing how much he supported me thru the whole ordeal!)
This Air Canada incident really struck home for me, as it was where i was heading eventually. I just couldn't continue the way i was and did the hardest thing i've ever had to do, i told someone......
I don't know this pilot's history or what his diagnosis will be, but it's important for us as pilots to be supportive and not ridicule or pass judgement. We do disjustice to our profession when we do this. It is an illness, no matter what people may think or say and should be treated as one......If we're more accepting of this as a disease and drop the stigma attached to mental illness, maybe we'll be able to avoid similar incidents in the future and encourage those suffering from it alone, to seek help.
As for my name etc, for now, i will keep it confidential. At least til i'm more confident that this is more accepted as an illness. Which i'm sure is still years away. At least i have the anonymity of the internet for now......

[bluemic]

AHM2002,

WOW! Thank you for sharing...

[Dysonsphere]

wonderfull post thx for sharing it was brave to do so.

[WorldDC10]

"http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/infopop/icons/icon7.gif O2 masks
"The Times said the Captain was required by standard procedures to wear an oxygen mask for the remainder of the flight becuase he was on his own - is this a normal SOP on longhaul ops because it is not a requirement in my company."

This is a very old rule that was changed years ago. I am sure the 767 Capt did not put on his mask. The statement in the paper came from another speculator. The only requirement to wear a mask when you are alone in the cockpit is when you are above FL410. Other than that, the mask has to be readily available which they are with quick doning masks in all airliners."


Could be the Times read the FAA rules - 121.333 says if only one pilot at controls above FL250 he has use the Oxygen mask. The FAA was going to change that a year or two ago but kept the rule in the end.

[India Four Two]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/publications/tp14371/RAC/Annex.htm

Use of Oxygen
605.32
(1) Where an aircraft is operated at cabin-pressure-altitudes above 10 000 ft ASL, but not exceeding 13 000 ft ASL, each crew member shall wear an oxygen mask and use supplemental oxygen for any part of the flight at those altitudes that is more than 30 min in duration.
(2) Where an aircraft is operated at cabin-pressure-altitudes above 13 000 ft ASL, each person on board the aircraft shall wear an oxygen mask and use supplemental oxygen for the duration of the flight at those altitudes.
(3) The pilot at the flight controls of an aircraft shall use an oxygen mask if
(a) the aircraft is not equipped with quick-donning oxygen masks and is operated at or above FL250; or
(b) the aircraft is equipped with quick-donning oxygen masks and is operated above FL410.

[PJ2]

India Four Two;

Thanks, that settles it I think - no mask required in this circumstance.

Decades ago, we were required to don an Ox mask when the other crew member momentarily left the cockpit. That requirement was discontinued and the only requirement now is when operating above 410; - the P1, (pilot flying) is required to wear the mask. This all assumes quick-donning equipment.

[eu01]

Do you understand Spanish and want to read some opinions about the issue? The article in El Mundo (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2008/02/03/internacional/1202017311.html) starts with these words: "The Professional Pilots' Rumour Network is a forum on the Internet accessible to all audiences, where airline pilots discuss their profession. So if you want to maintain the belief that our security is in good hands, you should stay away from this site as far as possible."

The entire article you can find here (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2008/02/03/internacional/1202017311.html).

[archstan]

The elmundo article is basically a translation of one from the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,2250436,00.html) on Friday

[pilotpilot]

AHM2002
Thanks for sharing. It reminds me that being a pilot does not give you infallability.

I learnt this the hard way, when, as soon as I started my training, I went through a big personal problem in my family(now ok). Nobody noticed, because my emotional distress was put down as other stuff... lack of confidence, assertiveness etc, etc... when actually I needed someone to talk to about my problem especially since I was away from my family. Time passed and the problem was solved, so then I was OK, and did well.

Unfortunately in our job, the "human" side is very much neglected. We're expected to "cold chicken" every emotion, which I must admit works well alot of times because at the end of the day our job is practical and so gives us a more logical view of things. However if a personal problem is so big as to being overwhelming, this doesn't work.

So glad that things worked out for you in the end. :D