Middle East...Deal or no Deal?

[WhatMeanPullUp]

I have viewed with interest the various threads regarding the Middle East, especially the Muscat mutterings. I am interested in working in the Middle East but is it worth it and what is the nationality of all these people who are making all the negative comments. What are the school costs, accomodation costs and general living costs at either Bahrain, Muscat or Abu Dhabi in comparison to the salary. Thanks ever so muchly :ok:

[divingduck]

well now that you have found the forum...try using the search function.:rolleyes:

Rather that than have everybody go through it all again because you can't be bothered reading it all:ugh:

[WhatMeanPullUp]

:= No, not trying to stir things up at all, I am only asking for information, why? are you in the middle east at the moment and are one of those people that is p:mad:d off?

[WhatMeanPullUp]

Diving duck, just for your info I have read all the threads, including yours on the Middle East and only find a lot of anger and p:mad:d off people. That is why I am asking is it worth it?:ugh:

[ATCO1962]

WMPU

Best advice is do your homework well before coming.

I've been in the Middle East over 16 years now and have seen a ton of people come and go for any number of reasons, some good, some bad, some frivolous. I'm assuming you're an ATCO and would know that we're pretty good at finding fault with things and complaining when necessary. Some are better than others at that and they often inhabit these kinds of fora. There's always an element of truth in the things that are said but it often doesn't convey the reality on the ground.

If you're going to come to this part of the world, whatever you do, don't just have money on your mind and don't think that your contract is anything more than a vague agreement between you and your future employer. If you can make that mental adjustment, you'll thrive here. If not, it could be excruciating for you.

Best of luck to you.

[WhatMeanPullUp]

Thank you both for your comments. Of course money is important but I am looking more for something different, rather than fiscal gain. However I have heard stories about people struggling with mortgages in the UK because of the salary etc, my own one is not big anyway so that is not an issue. I will endeavour to find out more, through these forums and the internet, negative comments are welcomed as well as positive ones. :)

[WhatMeanPullUp]

Ok thanks for that information. Some of my colleagues are are ex-ME but they left many years ago so the information they have is pretty basic, however it is encouraging to hear that there are positive things about the ME. My wife is a primary teacher, are there options for her or would she just become a lady of leisure??;)

[sodukonerd]

Go to muscat and make a negative profit :}

[ISaidRightTurns]

What does PRO stand for?

[WhatMeanPullUp]

Sorry to throw in a grenade here but is Muscat REALLY that bad????

[EIEIO]

Don't know who Black Hawk Drowning is or what he is crapping on about but Muscat is what you make it, decent wages(eventually), decent people and a beutiful scenic country. I think BHD was trying to say Kiwis cant handle the traffic here:confused: .Thats just nonsense, there are a bunch of Kiwis here and they are well able for it, they are also well able to negotiate and have been the main impetus in obtaining us a little pay-rise recently.

I think Batt39's suggestion is best, if you are really interested be sure to visit each place before, you will quickly get a sense if it would be right for you.

Heaps of jobs for qualified teachers here also, not always very well paid for ex-pat wives though

EIEIO

[WhatMeanPullUp]

Thanks for all the positive information guys, I am not naive enough to believe it will be a bed of roses wherever I decide to look, at but it all helps in the decision making process.:ok:

[zkpjm]

It's a bit annoying that Blackhawk has a habit of lobbing various comments into threads and then removes them.... come on mate, if you don't have the guts to backup what you say then don't post in the first place.
Do I assume that he thinks I left Muscat because I 'wasn't up to it'? I actually left because the contract was unaffordable for me to stay given the cost of rent and schooling. That's the bottom line.
I enjoyed the work, the people (expat's and locals alike) they are great people!! Muscat is the pick of places to live in the ME in my opinion and it's just a shame that DGCAM is unwilling or unable to offer a contract that 'meets the market' for experienced ATC's, the latest payrise not withstanding.
WMPU... follow the good advice that's offered here... come over and have a look yourself before committing to anything. But more importantly you need to come with an open mind and the right attitude... if you do that you'll have a ball I'm sure.
cheers
Pete

[black hawk down]

first,what i do to what i write is no ones biz but myself,so give or take i dont give a toss on what other think.
2nd,i wasnt talking about any one as a person ,the idea i was trying to pass on here is that its tuff over here in Muscat and i find that majority of people from over the tip of the world(i wouldnt dare to mention the country"s name) do struggle with stuff,knowing the back ground of their airspace.
finaly,i know why u left,and totaly understand why u did that,good for u:D
so i know that its sometimes its hard for me to express myself,but the comments i made was purley for the guy who started this thread,and the message was (if ur from that country "i wouldnt dare to say it name") matbe its not worth it to come here,not because of money only,but also because of traffic too.if i did hurt someone (sorry):oh:

[zkpjm]

Mate I have no problem at all with you posting your opinions I just wondered why you then felt the need to remove them.
With respect to the traffic... yeah, it gets busy but the 'system' isn't particularly helpful either but I won't go on about that..... suffice to say that alot more support for operations could be offered that wouldn't cost alot but would make a huge difference, something as simple as having some displayed information (airspace and route maps) and radios that work properly would have been helpful.
So you guys aren't missing me then?:}
cheers

[pare]

How's the dark side now? Check your PMs.

[pare]

Sorry mate, totally no idea on what you just said. My mistake, the post was intended for zkpjm. Unless you're the same guy.:confused: Im new here but have been lurking for years...

pare

[zkpjm]

The Dark Side is well... dark ....although there are glimpses of a bright light at the end of the tunnel...:confused:
I'm enjoying BAH so far Pare... good people, a structured training programme and even radios that work!!!! Cool eh?

[Fox3snapshot]

OK so your radio's work, how bout your lines cause nobody seems to answer them.... :E

[WhatMeanPullUp]

Rumour has it Muscat are finally stumping up an extra 500 OR per month, but when are they going to start paying it??????????? :confused::confused::confused:

[WhatMeanPullUp]

Thanks very much for your brutally honest opinion, this is what people like myself need to help make a decision about the ME. I intend to visit later on in the year with my family so thanks again for the info it is appreciated. :D:)

[Tin-Bullet]

heywa

Your replies have been very helpful for those who are interested in coming over to Oman, & this is what these forums are here for, for all those who want to improve & get some precise info, instead of the nonsense we sometimes have to bear with here.....

May I please ask you about your pay pack & conditions...Hope I am not asking to much.......

I'm sure you know all what we are FINALLY earning @ Dubai....

Many Thanks

[Quokka]

Only a 4 hour drive??? Try 7+ hours to Party Town!!! :p

[Globetrekker]

UAE ACC

The last thing I want to do here is start a war on who deserves more, job complexities etc, so please refrain from digressing to such an argument. In the gulf I beleive each unit should be paid the same 'base' across the board, from Muscat to Bahrain, then allowances as per country. Hard to achieve, if not impossible, call me a dreamer. Anyway straight up, UAE handle everything that comes and goes from OMDB, OMSJ, OMRK, OMFJ, OMAA, all military fields in between, and a number of overflyers not to be sneezed at. Surely the UAE ACC and DUBAI packages should be equal? I am keen on working in the UAE ACC, but right now it doens't really stack up, even with kids. I would be there tomorrow if they had a package like Dubai, as would others I know. Is it realistic to expect a similar package anytime soon? Was the increase in Dubai actually meant for UAE ACC controllers as well?

It just doesn't make sense to me.

[Fox3snapshot]

Ahh oh :uhoh:! There is the hand grenade rolling into the thread.....:E

[Chaos Controller]

Ah, shouldn't they indeed? Shouldn't the OMAA app/twr, OMAL, OMFJ, OMRK and OMSJ controllers also get the same pay as the Dubai ones? Or even more for AL, FJ and RK as they have more ratings? (APP, APS, TWR?)
In an ideal world I guess all should get the same pay, but I am affraid it is as easy as supply and demans. Dubai are desperate for more people, therefore they offer more money. UAE ACC is not that desperate for people, therefore they offer less money.
I do not think it is realistic to expect a similar package for ACC this year, but you never know what happens next year (saleries are normally renegotiated only once a year.)
Increase in Dubai was not ment for ACC as well, ACC is located in Abu Dhabi, and has nothing to do with Dubai.

[zkjaws]

"Try 7+ hours to Party Town!!! "

Which way are you taking - via Khasab???:)

I've done the trip a few times (direct) and it's taken between 3.5 and 5 hrs. The slowing factor seems to be the border crossing, and those pesky speed cameras.

[Fox3snapshot]

Never took me more than 4 and a half hours door to door Muscat - Dubai, and that was with the old border post which was nothing short of shambolic. Wasn't at break neck speeds either.

However a good mate of mine managed it in under 3 hours in a Corvette....he uses dealer test drive clip on plate covers for the speed cameras :E

[Fox3snapshot]

Watch this space for the ACC pay rise....:cool:

'ACC is located in Abu Dhabi, and has nothing to do with Dubai.' Oh so true....:E

[SINGAPURCANAC]

[QUOTEIn the gulf I beleive each unit should be paid the same 'base' across the board, from Muscat to Bahrain, then allowances as per country[/QUOTE]
@Globetrekker,
If ANSA reads this it will be :}:confused::mad::ouch::=:oh:

[black hawk down]

guys,if you are intrested in those speed meter facts,the dont catch you at the speed of 135km/h exactly,so the catch is to close the meter on your respected cars,lift your legs up just in time(your all good controllers i bet) just to make the pass across those radars at 135km/h and your in biz:}.enjoy speeding

[VoxPopuli]

Foxyyyyyy, is there something you know that we don't? The waiting list on a white R8 with black sideblades and B&O sound is two years, I'll have you know.

[Funk]

you're dreamin Foxxy, and Vox you'll need something bigger given that there's no affordable accommodation in AD I'd be looking for something with a 6ft flat tray to set up your bed on :}

[WhatMeanPullUp]

The thread is kind of roaming now but a question please, is everyone deserting the desert, pardon the pun, or is everyone continuing to stay where they are and complain incessently. Have you got the pay rises yet? :cool:

[Canoehead]

Those of us working approach in the desert are having our dessert cake and eating it too; thus we are not deserting. Come on down.

[roswell]

And those of us working Area have not seen payrises and are deserting

[Scooby Don't]

It must be incredibly difficult to put them in the hold at DESDI and BUBIN, obviously far more difficult that doing the "knife-fight in a phone booth" that is getting them on final with the right spacing.
Ordinarily of course, I'd suggest that whether TWR, APR or ACC, we should all get the same pay. But when ANSA .... [reference to self-gratification removed] .... out of sight of the rest of us. Everyone at the UAE ACC should, naturally, be on the same pay and conditions as DXB.

Edit: apology accepted ANSA. What we all need, as well as some thought to putting the ACC and the airports under one umbrella and one contract (the best one, obviously), is better integration of systems, flow control and procedures. Eventually, perhaps, a GCC equivalent to Eurocontrol... Asking for name suggestions would probably be a bad idea. :E

[BlueSkye]

And if all goes according to to the rumoured plan, ACC will be earning more than APP one of these days. Then APP will be unhappy and then they get more than ACC. Then ACC gets pi$$ed off and they go above APP again. Then APP yadda yadda yadda. I think it may just be a blessing in disguise that one unit gets more than the other. With egos in this joint bigger than common sense, all this infighting may just bolster the Cayman Island bank account a bit. More than likely I'm looking through Fox3Snappydresser's rose tinted glasses.

Alltogether now, "Dayyyyydream believer...."

[TheFalcon]

Well done ANSA. I hope u really get what u deserve!:ok:

[Fox3snapshot]

My rose coloured glasses just turned a new shade of pink with the arrival of the new big boss today to finally steer our rudderless ship.....

Yup the eternal optimist, that be me to be sure to be sure! :p

[throw a dyce]

WhatMeanPullUp,
Ahh You'll get the same complaints in the UK or wherever.If you're interested in going to the sandpit,then apply and see what happens.If you go,then give it a minimum of 3 years or the contracted period,and remember that there is no union to fight your causes.Don't fall out with your previous employer,and they should have you back when the adventure is over.You might like it and stay.:ok::cool::cool:

[danceswithsheep]

Foxy..........here's the deal. we will answer the lines if you actually have something to talk about!lol Which is an invite to go drinking or..........an invite to go drinking.
Otherwise the mute button stays on!!!!

[Mr Ron]

We have heard that GAL in Abu Dhabi are on the look out for a Manager for their Standards and Procedures group - does anyone know the contact for them?

[trailblazer]

Their website might be a pretty good place to start:rolleyes:

http://www.gal.ae/main.php

[Quokka]

WhatMeanPullUp...

Everyone's circumstance is different in the Sandpit... everyone's motivation for being here is slightly different...

If you were to come here and talk to the controllers living here, you'd hear widely varying answers to your question, because everyone's situation is different. However, the "two buckets" analogy often quoted on PPRuNe sums it up best... at the moment, one bucket is full for some and very close to full for others... and the other bucket is just not filling at all... := ...yet.

Many have said it before... and will say it over... and over... and over... again...

Get on a plane and see for yourself... and then go home and have a think about it.

...this is the path to true enlightenment. ;)

[Slo Moe]

Nice words Quokka.

Suggested reading on the subject brought up by Quokka,
which actually might help on your decision,
could be:

The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho
Acres of Diamonds by Russel H. Conwell

I wish you lots of wise decisions.

[Slo Moe]

This news I am glad to read:

"Air traffic controller was happily surprised.
The salary that he received in M.E.
was much more than promised."

Actually I was sitting during one Ramadhan
in a taxi from a spa kind of facility. Taxis
were very very few, it was almost sunset.
Beautiful silhouette of a quietening city was
turning to a cascade of colours.

So there comes an elderly gentleman waving
from the spa.

I offer him the other backseat, and he starts
talking. He is just appointed to be a manager
for a certain airline in M.E.

He tells, that he was promised a salary of
let's say 30000 credits. When he signs the
contract he is told that "oops" sorry the
true salary is actually 25000 credits.

So actually he is taught from the very
beginning the values of the company.
And the lesson is powerfull.
Take a wild guess how he will act
when recruiting people?
This is said to be true about the other
contract details of others as well.

Some traditions change. Some could. And some should.

Guess why?

[Quokka]

Life is a path that you walk. The only mistake that you can ever make in life... is to stop walking.

[VoxPopuli]

The only mistake that you can ever make in life... is to stop walking


"Keep Walking."

[Slo Moe]

Good choice of words!

[andrijander]

As in the Johnnie Walker bottle?

Thanks, but I'll stick to beer and vodka. C ya in the bars.

A.

[Slo Moe]

Johnny Cash...

[Quokka]

The aim of life is not to die wealthy, but to die with a bank balance of zero... otherwise there was one more beer you could have drunk... :E

[Slo Moe]

One point that I could share about some personal observings in Middle East.

People tend to be more responsive or reactive in M.E. than in many so called
western countries. The reason to this I could not find out, yet.
As in all cultural traits there usually is a historical, environmental or
societal reason for how people act, how they think and how they perceive
the world.

Even the first sentence in the above statement is a generalization,
please let me explain.

In Middle East I first discovered the power of my own attitudes towards
other people. By this I mean that my own attitude reflected quite a bit sooner
back from the postures, expressions, words etc. of other people.

So when I was in an open mindset and a friendly attitude the "miracle" happened:
The fellow people I met, and conversed with usually very much reflected
my own friendliness, my own openmindedness back to me.

For me it took quite a long time to discover this simple thing, for me
I had to leave my homeland. The prevailing thought I had about my
countrymen/countrywomen (People listening to country music, in the country
club, on the countryside...) was that they were rigid and nonresponsive etc.
And since I happened to think in this way, then it was the "generalization"
that was the truth at that time for me. Thus it has become easy to not to
generalize.

I am grateful of the experiences I have, since I have been able to
modify my own thinking and my own attitudes and even my own emotions
to more positive. Step by step. Little by little.

I would like to quote a famous British band called The Beatles briefly
on one of their insightful lyrics (guess which song):
"It's easy"

(I suppose and hope a quote this short does not infringe any copyright laws...)

[WhatMeanPullUp]

Cheers Slo Moe, positive words so perhaps the desert is not worth deserting..........looking forward to perhaps making sandcastles in the sun....:cool::cool::cool:

[Slo Moe]

Thanks mate.

[galliwalli]

I believe a DG has been appointed in AbuDabbi. Any ideas on when the GCAA will roll out the new packages, and any idea on what they might be?

[VoxPopuli]

The official package will only be set later in the year after a restructuring study is completed. A monthly "allowance" will probably be paid to stem the flow of ATCOs in the meantime. As for the amount of the allowance, your guess is as good as mine. From what has been said the new DG does appear to be a stand-up guy and his alleged remark about making UAE ACC the best paid unit in the country/world sure sounds like music to my ears.

We'll see, said the Zen master.

[WhatMeanPullUp]

The Abu Dhabi pay rumours have been going on for a while so if something constructive is happening then all good and well but a question regarding accomodation. a colleague of mine is ex- Abu Dhabi and he said the accomodation provided (meaning apartments) were crap, no, really crap. Is this still the case? :confused:

[Funk]

Not wanting to bag Abu Dhabi as an option because I really enjoy working here. The package is grossly insufficient to move here. Abu Dhabi accommodation is running at 98% occupancy so very little is to be had and it is hideously expensive. For a single guy you need about 140k+ for a 2 bed place for a family your are looking at 190k+ for a 3 bed place (flat). You can forget about a villa as you will find nothing on the island for under 300k these days.
Therefore for singles you want at least 60K/month and family guys you need about 65K/month (more if you want to educate your kids).
The rumoured interim measures by GCAA in all honesty are just going to stem the tide of departures not attract any newbies and won't come anywhere near what is needed.
Muscat's new package when it comes coupled with the new rent laws is a better option than AUH for Area guys (schooling is still problematic). DXB for App bods if you can stand the overcrowded roads in that sewer of a city is the best in the UAE. BAH is the jewel in the crown in terms of conditions as far as I can gather hence the wait list for training slots.

[WhatMeanPullUp]

Thanks for that Funk, I have family so therefore will not consider Abu Dhabi unless things improve. :ok:

[TheFalcon]

DXB for App bods if you can stand the overcrowded roads in that sewer of a city is the best in the UAE. Hey thats not fair - Dubai is just a bit busy and one person a day dies on the road on average. Still its a city like any city and if its a sewer of a city then AUH is really doing well in flushing itself down the same toilet! Cheers :ok:

[Funk]

touché :}, yes AUH is heading down that smelly road clogged route albeit at more leisurely pace.

The irony is that for some guys the only affordable and available accommodation in Abu Dhabi is in the Dubai Marina.

[WhatMeanPullUp]

GREAT!! CATFIGHT!! CATFIGHT!! my city is better than your city, my dad is bigger than your dad,, ha ha ha love it! :ok:

[2 Dogs]

Don't know why all you guys in Dubai and Abu Dhabi don't just move to the friendly oasis city of Al Ain :) :). Villas here are as cheap as chips (compared to Dub and Auh) tho prices are starting to climb.
With the accommodation allowance the Dubai guys get they would be able to afford a 5 bedroom villa, new car payments and a full time driver to take you there and back, with change left over. And its only an hours drive to either airport.:D

[Scooby Don't]

Too far from the York Hotel for some guys.... :eek: