Air Sea Rescue video - RACQ Careflight Helicopter [Archive]

clearances

28th Jan 2008, 08:50

I'm not interested in the pissing matches that seem to go on regularly when some specific "Not for Profit" type agencies are involved in free advertising or S%$& slinging but I've spent my fair share of time listening to "Cons" from both very good and very average crewman. I must say that there are portions of this one that leave quite a bit to be desired. I’m sure your average punter donating money drummed up by such propaganda would be impressed but purely because they would not know any better. If that vessel was pitching and heaving and required the crewman to lift his game I'm sure things would have sounded different. Or I bloody well hope so for his rescue crewman’s sake.

AusWhirlyBusDriver

28th Jan 2008, 10:24

Good job Parky!
As far as the sledging.....I hope you guys have never made a mistake (clearly not). Please post a vidoe of yourselves so that we can give it a thorough critique.....:ugh:

[email protected]

28th Jan 2008, 12:44

So some of you guys don't think there is anything wrong with giving incorrect directions when you are the only guy who can see the boat (evidenced by the confirmation once clear that the pilot then had references). Although the clearance from the vessel should have been pre-briefed, things can change and without references the pilot can only follow the 'con' - if that is poor then the aircraft and casualty are in danger.

You call it sledging - we call it critiquing and any professional worth his salt should accept that, I do when I make a mistake (and no I'm not perfect). If people don't want their mistakes to be seen then don't release the video to be beamed around the world.

HELOFAN

28th Jan 2008, 18:09

Oh f%@! me.

What the hell is going on?

Its just a video showing guys doing a job.

Maybe "RIGHT" means cleared for the back part of the clearnace.

Either way the clearance was immediatly repeated.

Man , I posted the link just to show another real video of something being done, not posers making a video.

I like EMS becuase thats where I want to go, why shoot that video down & request it being removed, good lord... grow up you immature children.

You guys must be busy making comments on every video of someone making mistakes or things you dont agree or like with video's.

Are you guys really that good?

HELIPORT, please remove the comments not the thread, or just close this thread off from comments being added.

HF:(

Pass the peanuts..

[email protected]

28th Jan 2008, 19:42

HELOFAN - strangely, those of us who do that sort of thing for a living don't get thrilled by a video of a very boring lift from a standard deck in nice weather and a flat sea. We certainly don't start slapping backs and saying 'nice job' - it is routine and very straightforward.

However, during this piece of video, some of us who are very familiar with the dangers associated with winching, noticed an error in patter. Yes the guy made a mistake and it didn't cause a problem - 90% of the viewers didn't notice but to Vie and myself it was a glaring error.

If you want to keep posting videos on a professional pilots forum, expect professional pilots to pass comment:ugh:

HELOFAN

28th Jan 2008, 20:09

Crab, sorry to hear you are not thrilled about flying videos when its something you do.

I hope that when I make it into the field that I choose, I am not bored seeing someone do a decent job of it.

You are right about the comments though, I guess when I posted on a professional pilots forum, I expected professional pilots to pass professional comments.

Videos like this help gain support for all EMS/rescue units when often times are tough financially, I would think that any good publicity is good publicity.

I see it and think good on them & maybe the general public will do the same, and help by donations next time they see the oportunity to do so.
How many operations are shutting down because of lack of funds & or public interest?

I am not one that is going to get all excited about seeing a video when its choppy seas, the boat is on fire in 70 ft swells, yeah its dangerous but when would you rather do the lift?

I am not affiliated with any services, I am a bum student, not even in toad country.

Sad state of affairs.

HF

Senior Pilot

28th Jan 2008, 22:12

This thread is (yet) another awful example of what we don't appreciate in Rotorheads.

I feel like the schoolteacher in the playground being demanded to adjudicate a squabble between a bunch of 8 year olds. Your posts are so dreadful, I decided not to moderate any of them, and leave them until you all feel embarrassed enough to do something about them on your own.

FFS, grow up in NSW and start behaving like adults. You are adults, aren't you?

:*

zoomcage

29th Jan 2008, 01:52

What about the poor shark? Ooch.:ugh:

I believe he was a trainee aircrewman also, or was it a her!

[email protected]

29th Jan 2008, 05:55

Senior Pilot - whatever you think of the criticism of the video, it was neither Vie or myself who started the playground name-calling, nor did we reply in kind. If you want to improve the quailty of posts on Rotorheads then moderate the posters who make no contribution other than personal insults.

Oogle

29th Jan 2008, 07:36

OK. I am on here to reply to the "critique" given by Crab et al.

Crab, you said:

Although the clearance from the vessel should have been pre-briefed, things can change and without references the pilot can only follow the 'con' - if that is poor then the aircraft and casualty are in danger.

Many organisations that I have worked with have a standard brief before all winch ops (either overwater or land). These are practiced and briefed regularly. They are carried out before any winch extraction.

In all my time winching off vessels (no matter what the sea state), the clearance from the vessel is at the pilot's discretion as he is the one holding the reference (once handed over from the crewman). You can't pre-brief this distance (clearance) as the factors facing you dictate this (ie. type of vessel, obstructions, sea state, etc). Probably different mentalities due to the geographic location (UK versus Aus).

"Move back and right left!" he said, with a worryingly frantic tone for such a stable deck in benign conditions .

The correction was made so quickly as to be hardly noticed. And as for the "worryingly frantic tone", every person is different. You work with a crewman long enough and you get to know their style of talking. I didn't think it was frantic at all.

I’m sure your average punter donating money drummed up by such propaganda would be impressed but purely because they would not know any better.

Clearances: Thanks for jumping on here for your first post but just to let you know, QLD Rescue (Government) and alot of the CHC machines have cameras on their aircraft as well - but that it is alright for them to show their winches on TV isn't it. :=

I stand by my first post. Good job guys!:D Anyway, it was only shown on TV due to the shark component.

PO dust devil

29th Jan 2008, 07:53

I think the guys did a pretty nice job. A good honest con. Also AFAIK this is not the group who slag the others....That merely seems the reserve of certain, individuals with no lives to speak of.

Nice work on public view.

I also think it's quite cynical to over critique every slip of the tongue situation. If the difference between doing something safely and unsafely relies on one conning direction instruction..........then the PIC was in the wrong place and by default not in control of the situation, to start with. Overdoing the critique thing is tedious and damages confidence all round.

Risking lives to save lives???.....= unsound practice IMHO.

I am not associated with that organisation or any other in Queensland.

DD

helo1

29th Jan 2008, 08:24

Its all so easy to sit back and rubbish everyone but you guys put yourselves in their shoes and lets see how you do the job.
PUT UP OR SHUT UP

Bronx

29th Jan 2008, 08:59

crab

Nobody could doubt your great experience in this field and your a straight guy so nobody could doubt your intentions are sincere but from what I've seen in these threads over the years its a minefield of local politics the Mods have always tried to keep in check to stop the forum being abused by folk with personal agendas.

B.

sagy34

29th Jan 2008, 10:39

The old "Glass Houses" and "stones" saying comes very easily to mind:=

maxeemum

29th Jan 2008, 10:48

Successful mission = job done.

Sure there are debrief points, there always is! (which flight goes exactly as planned............?), there are always debrief points.

All professional crews have a wash up/lessons learnt analysis mode. This is what makes us all better and adds to safer and more efficient future ops.

Parky well done..........., good example of focus on the big picture and all the small **** will be taken care of.

Rock Chuckers, nothing CONSTRUCTIVE to add, clear off............

Max

:=

HELOFAN

29th Jan 2008, 11:04

Crab,
Too many floggers, not enough time.
:E

First round is on me.

Where is the smilie with the beer in his hand?

:suspect:

HF

[email protected]

29th Jan 2008, 14:35

OOgle - I am not sure whether I should take your comments to mean you were one of the operating crew or not but I have the following observations:

If the pilot cannot see the vessel or only a small part of it and cannot see what is happening on the end of the winch wire, he MUST follow the con from the winch operator for any movement and especially the clearance away from the deck - if he does not he runs the risk of dragging the crewman and casualty through the myriad of obstructions that exist on most vessels. As you agreed, the clearance is pre-briefed but can change should the situation change (the boat could wander off heading or move unpredictably).

As to the tone of the patter - if you regularly fly with the same guy and you get used to him you do get used to the way he cons the aircraft - however, having listend to hundreds of cons from hundreds of winch ops, rapid patter (especially with a quickly corrected direction without using the word 'correction') is usually an indicator that he is working at capacity or something has gone badly wrong beneath the aircraft. In this particular case you can make your mind up about the winch op in question.

PO Dust devil - risking lives to save lives is exactly what SAR is all about. Winching clearances rely heavily on the winch op because the pilot cannot see underneath the aircraft - this doesn't mean the Pic is in the wrong place.

LHSboy

29th Jan 2008, 23:08

Job well done guys.

Not too many people can say they haven't made a mistake or two in their lives. If everyone was perfect then we'd have nothing to talk about on this forum.

I guess on the day the excitement of it all might have caught up with the air crewman in question. I'll be the first to admit it has happened to me and the majority of others would say the same. We are only human and if we don't make the mistakes/ errors, how will we learn not to make the same again.

The guy is probably feeling bad about having the job posted for all of us to see/listen. We're all entitled to our opinions so lets just not get too carried away by it all and let him learn by it and may he be a better operator for it.

Just remember we all had to start somewhere! :ok:

Oogle

30th Jan 2008, 07:26

Crab

No. I wasn't part of the crew on that job. I am not even on the same continent at the moment.

I just know the how it is done at most of the EMS/SAR organisations in Aus.

Appreciate where you are coming from though. ;)

PO dust devil

30th Jan 2008, 11:00

Read my lips, if the difference between a safe or an unsafe winch is one incorrect word of patter then the PIC is in the wrong place and doesn't have the situational awareness the rest of the crew deserve.

If you had stated calculated risk.....mmmm I would consider that. Then make a call when we find a safe way..

It's not about risking lives to save lives AT ALL. I would much rather take my crew home safely with a survivor or two......In fact I would rather take my crew and machine home safely.....to save, another day.

Not much skill and thought involved in blundering in and crashing about everywhere. Even drunks and Gonzos can do that. over

DD

topendtorque

30th Jan 2008, 12:21

risking lives to save lives is exactly what SAR is all about.

Hi Crab
I've always admired your posts, may I suggest that your quote above is an aberration. I and many others deplore the cowboy attitude that SAR/EMS is dangerous, needs special deals etc.

I would suggest in the interest of improving safety that SAR/EMS is strictly routine, flying under assessed conditions with the skills and equipment to undertake the task or the PIC has the resposibility to veto.

Risk, is not accepted. Any pilot under that misaprehension needs to be jumped on.

Too often in this country we have had accidents where the above logic was not used and people were hurt, and killed.

The whole team in this scenario was under pressure, according to the TV news, they were at the extreme edge of endurance and accomplished the pick up in fourteen seconds.

Just recently we have seen a case on the confusion that often arises between different countries with their language idioms. Here I refer to the very public spat bewteen the Indian and OZ cricket teams and use of the word "monkey", so they say.

In this rescue, at a reasonable stress levels I suggest that the word "right" could well have meant "yes" or for you long winded people, "affirmative" or for the poofs in the party, "affirm".

It is a usual OZ contradictory expression as is "yeah, yeah, -- Nah!", or "Nah, Nah, I mean Yeah that's right, eh".

Why I do believe i have even seen the same contradictions of meanings on the famous Brit Tv show, 'The Vicar of Dibley.' Nuff said???

I don't at all countence the mannerism, especially if crews rotate at short notice, strict language procedures would be better. These guys were possibly very familiar with each other and it obviously was not a problem, as the TV camera has relayed.
cheers tet

Blue Rotor Ronin

30th Jan 2008, 13:54

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
crab·by /ˈkræbi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[krab-ee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective, -bi·er, -bi·est.
Informal. grouchy; ill-natured; irritable; peevish.

Says it all really...
I too am in the trade, his mistaken directional patter was immediately corrected before a pilot input could have made and any pilot worth his salt has a microsecond of cautious thought before a cyclic input, I would love to meet this crabby chap as he could tell me of all the wonderful jobs he's done whilst I and a few of my equally inexperienced SAR buddies(crew average about 15years each person) could sit around gazing wistfully at our hero while donning shades to avoid the glare coming from his pompous rectum. I'm sure our Antipodean cousins are equally professional in every way regardless of their employ, and anyway who hasn't had a slip of the tongue before, flat calm or not. Off skiing for 3 weeks tomorrow so have fun y'all.:ok:

victor papa

30th Jan 2008, 16:55

Vie, you used the key words: Risk Management. That word implies a very good Safety Management System and working understanding there off. Everything is a risk, it is how you handle it and whether you are trained and experienced enough to deal with the onsite evaluation of a situation. Life and aviation is about decition making skills under pressure and unknown/undefined conditions. Question is: Are all off us sufficiently trained and experienced to make an informative decision?:hmm: Think the crew did a good job, always easy to critisize afterwards and it can always be done better from an armchair!:ugh:
Having worked for a few companies in my life(incl CHC), a company name does not qualify or disqualify a crew!!!!!

[email protected]

30th Jan 2008, 19:47

Topendtorque - firstly SAR and EMS are completely different animals and whilst extensive risk reduction is fine in EMS, risk management is the norm in SAR. The difficulty in trying to make hard and fast rules is that they are inflexible and therefore useless.

Imagine the risk to a colleague of mine and his crew when they hovertaxied in cloud and in the dark with a very poor NVG picture up the side of a mountain to reach a casualty - then hovertaxied back down to cloudbreak and flew to hospital. The casualty would have died if left on the mountain but the crew's daring and skill saved her life. This is where the risk averse start muttering about health and safety, blundering in and crashing around everywhere (PODustdevil). The fact is, if you are very well trained and have good CRM and risk assessment skills - you are already someway to mitigating the risk of the operation as you are going in with eyes wide open and aware of all the possible dangers. This is professional SAR.

If the TV report about being at the extreme of range and only having minimal time on scene (14 secs is about the time it takes to establish a briefing position ready for the lift) is to be believed, then it means they were taking far more risks for far less benefit - the guy wasn't going to die from his injuries if basic first aid was given. I suspect there may be some poetic licence in the TV report.

However I haven't stopped laughing at the notion his patter was some linguistic idiom....they saved all that for the extensive use of 'mate' after they were clear of the deck.

Blue rotor - another fine example of someone who has nothing to offer the topic other than personal abuse:yuk:

detgnome

30th Jan 2008, 20:16

PO dust devil & topendtorque

Crab and vie have put into words exactly what I can't be bothered to sit here and type. Don't be so naive to think that all SAR missions can be achieved without risk.

PO dust devil

30th Jan 2008, 20:39

You guys are just so good, wonder if you've ever really had to make the hard call.......I hope you never get the chance to kill me or risk our passengers after they have survived a perfectly good crash somewhere......

In fact, don't bother knocking on my door for work. People would have to fly our machines after you've finished feeding your egos in them. There aren't any one job only career paths around here.

"you're gonna be saved if it kills you"

Hut hut hut

DD

Freewheel

30th Jan 2008, 20:46

Any chance you posted this in the knowledge the handbags hadn't had an airing in a while?

baffler15

31st Jan 2008, 04:51

Now, now chaps - take a breath for a minute and ponder this quote, written by Wilbur Wright in a letter to his father, dated September 1950:

"In flying, I have learned that carelessness and overconfidence are usually far more dangerous than deliberately accepted risks"

From my point of view, that just about sums ANY form of aviation up. Particularly pertinent to this discussion about SAR/EMS, however. Enough already of the mudslinging and name-calling please - I, for one, would much rather pick up some hints and good advice based on the experience of other much more skilful pilots for use in my own flying career, than sit here reading some of the garbage on offer.

The Baffler :ok:

lifer1

31st Jan 2008, 05:06

Couldn't agree with you more Baffler,should quieten down now schools gone back(well in most of Oz at least) and the nit picking ,petty minded will have other things to think about,ie homework!! goodluck with the school year kiddies.

L1 out.

riadbec

31st Jan 2008, 06:13

Oh dear - a slag off competition because of a video. The moderator needs to shut down this thread before someone posts another.

[email protected]

31st Jan 2008, 08:23

PO dustdevil - you still don't get it.

This isn't about trumpet blowing or back-slapping.

I am lucky enough to work with, train and examine some truly excellent exponents of SAR - I am trying to highlight for the unaware or inexperienced that actually, when things are getting really difficult, you rely utterly on your team members and one incorrect direction at the wrong time can cause big problems which is why we demand such high standards on SAR.

topendtorque

31st Jan 2008, 11:25

which is why we demand such high standards on SAR.

Yep knew you would come good pretty quick, No risk at all is there.

Climbing mountains with limited visual reference, heard of that several times. What does the helicopter VFR say now? "Proceed at a speed commensurate with visibility"? or words to that effect. No problem, no risk, no need for thinking it's herioc or the extra mile, just part of the daily jungle.

Did just that the other day, cloud at 200 feet rain, rain and more rain, vis very short and in front of me, somewhere, is a dirty great power line that I must cross, with standing up and down sticks under it that reach at least eighty feet up. Big deal slow down, have a good look about.

I think the big diff here is that trangessing from wartime scernarios to peace time is difficult for some.
Battlefield commanders will know the statistics of attrition.
The PIC who has the best ability of calculated risk will often win -- and come home. He may not.

In peacetime the attrition is supposed to set at ZERO.. ZERO.
That means also the Risk is set at ZERO.
The only thing that is calculated is the competency, available equipment and a compatable flight plan forward, or it's no go.

cheers tet

[email protected]

31st Jan 2008, 17:36

Tet - while the attrition rate should be zero it is not possible for the risk to be zero, especially for the poor old winchman who gets to do the really dodgy stuff.

There is a growing risk averse culture in the UK highlighted by the Community Police Officers who were praised by their boss for not risking their lives by jumping into a pond and trying to save a lad who subsequently drowned.

He or someone similar in command stated that there was no reason to risk one's life to save another - nice sentiments:yuk:

Someone thought my mates mountain exploit was somewhat out of the ordinary daily jungle since he got an AFC for it - I have to wholeheartedly agree but he had recently completed several equally demanding rescues with only a cup of tea as a reward on his return.

riadbec

1st Feb 2008, 06:35

finally - someone who appreciates risk takers

PO dust devil

1st Feb 2008, 09:47

Crab - I do get it. All that next paragraph.....me too.

One final comment before Riadbec destroys the thread....I can't imagine the SOP for NVG's including line creeping in cloud using them as defacto x-ray vision. Well done and well done, to your colleague who pulled it off....condolences to the families of the next one/s who don't quite.

regards, respect

DD

baffler15

1st Feb 2008, 09:55

Perhaps the mods should make riadbec's wish to be de-registered a reality. What exactly do you have to offer this forum, anyway?:confused:

The Baffler :ok:

yarpa

1st Feb 2008, 10:15

Moderator, please close this down, riadbec is begging you with all his daft comments. What a cowboy, just what the industry needs.

B412

1st Feb 2008, 13:05

This thread, despite having some really juvenile, and rediculous emotion, does within it contain some serious comment on the role of SAR crews, and the associated risks that are ALWAYS involved in a SAR mission. Perhaps some of the commentators should read the post on the SAR work accomplished last night in the UK.

Lets be real, in a day VFR training winch sortie on an airfield, with a nice wind in favourable direction, whilst in a Bell 412 maintaining an OGE hover recovering the crewmen, what would happen if one engine fails? Is conducting that training therefore slightly risky? A B412 does not have OGE OEI capability with much of a payload, hence therefore the only way to eliminate that risk would be to not use that type of acft for the job at all. Yet, as many of us know, the B412 is an excellent SAR platform.

On to another role. Most offshore pilots depart a heli deck with a full load, using tried and practiced procedures whilst still knowing that with an engine failure, the outcome will be an OEI fly away, or possibly a controlled ditching, all depending on the ambient conditions at the time and complying with the AFM performance charts.

Group A performance is not possible on most rigs as they are not built to the size required of an aircraft carrier! So tomorrow will we take passengers to an oil rig in a Bell 212, or await that aircrafts replacement with a Super Puma?

Training, the skill level of the crews, and the ability to know when you CAN NOT do a task is what I have always known SAR to be all about.