Dual Logbooks Required?

[Xoxon]

I (almost) have a JAA(A) PPL which I will maintain while flying a microlight that I'm buying a share in. Do I need a separate log book for each category?

The insurance for the group shared micro requires that I do 5 hours conversion with an existing group member. I want to log this to record my compliance with the insurance policy. Is this possible if I do the 5 hours before I have finished my PPL(A)? How should I log these hours? Is there something other than P1 that I can record them as?

[Genghis the Engineer]

It is best to keep the hours in separate logbook columns, but not necessarily a separate logbook. For example, if you have a conventional PPL logbook there's probably a couple of "multi-engine" columns in there - just stick a label on the headings changing "multi-engine" to "microlight" and you're fine.

You'll need microlight differences training (with a microlight instructor) for legal reasons but presumably you can do that before you've got your PPL(SEP), and you could pay an instructor to do that in the aircraft you are buying a share in so long as the aircraft is type approved (often called factory built), although they can't sign that off until you've got your PPL(SEP). One would assume your syndicate and insurance company would be happy with an instructor instead of one of them.

That said, I'm not a licencing expert, just somebody with experience and a collection of licences. You'd do well to phone 01869-338888 during the week and ask to speak to Roy Hart; Roy is BMAA's licencing guru and can give you chapter and verse.

G

[BackPacker]

The insurance for the group shared micro requires that I do 5 hours conversion with an existing group member.

I agree with Genghis here. The insurance may well require 5 hours with an existing group member, but the law requires differences training (and a signoff) from a microlight instructor. And an instructor can't sign you off until you have a piece of paper for him to put his signature on. Also known as your license.

So I guess the proper order would be:
- PPL SEP(A) skills test, send the whole lot to the CAA and wait for your license.
- Get differences training and a signoff from a qualified microlight instructor. (Logged as Pu/t, most likely)
- Fly five hours with an experienced group member as passenger. (Logged as P1)

If you expect that the differences training is going to take a lot of work (several hours) then I guess you can do some of that training before you do the PPL SEP(A) skills test or before you have your license in hand. But if your microlight is a three axis just like the airplane you flew for SEP(A), then I think all that would be required is to get used to the much lower inertia of the thing (and possibly different control forces, location of switches, different picture out the cockpit and different checklists). Maybe two hours should do the trick. Why get into muddy legal waters over just two hours? (Have to tell you that I've never converted my SEP(A) to SEP(M), so this two hours estimate is speculation.)

If the microlight is a weightshift, that's a different matter of course.

Also check the insurance. Do they really require 5 hours with a group member *in addition* to the instructor giving you a microlight sign-off, or do they require 5 hours with a group member if somebody who already holds a microlight license, but flew another type, wants to start flying this one? I would assume that if a microlight instructor signs you off, then that should be good enough for the insurance.

which I will maintain while flying a microlight

You sure this is a good idea? This means that you've got to rent a SEP(A) for 12 hours minimum, one of which is with an instructor, every two years, while you can possibly fly your own microlight for maybe 50 hours with the same amount of money. It is probably cheaper to let the SEP(A) get out of currency, and do a check flight with an examiner if you ever want to get back into SEP(A) flying.

[Xoxon]

I'm aware that I can do some kind of an abridged general flight with an instructor toward the end of 2 years in order to retain the (SEP) license instead of doing 12 hrs, but do you mean that even beyond 2 years all that is required is a flight test? I had the feeling that I might have to do the whole PPL course again or something as no one has ever told me what would happen in this situation (only to ensure that I DO revalidate in time).
Is there some kind of time limit on this and would the fact that I'd be current on a 3 axis micro matter count for anything?

On the same topic, a friend of mine has not flown for about 5 years - what would he have to do to renew his license?

Thank you both for your help - I will indeed phone the BMAA man in the know in due course to help me get my head around it.

[Slopey]

If you don't get the 12 hours inc 1 instructor, you can do an abridged skills 'test' with an instructor and have your ticked signed off for another 2 years. I've just done exactly that after I got my dates mixed up and didn't get the instructed hour.

[BackPacker]

If you don't get the 12 hours inc 1 instructor, you can do an abridged skills 'test' with an instructor

Not quite true. As usual, the definitive answer is in LASORS (sections F1.4 and F1.5 to be exact). Here's the summary.

For revalidation (which is what happens before your class rating expires):

a. If you have 12 hours, including one hour instruction, on a SEP(A) in the 12 months preceding the expiry of the class rating, you can go to an examiner, have him check your logbook and sign the paperwork (normally for free), and you're good for another two years. (There are some restrictions towards the 12 hours, but they're usually not relevant.)

b. If you don't have the 12 hours you need to do a License Proficiency Check (LPC) with an authorized *examiner* (not an instructor). This is in effect a mini-skills test.

For renewal (which is what happens if your class rating has expired):

a. If the class rating has expired less than five years, a full skills test is required with an authorized examiner. This will include an oral examination, but the CAA will not charge a fee for the paperwork, since the examiner may sign your license.

b. If the class rating has expired by more than five years, you need to do the same skills test and oral examination, but the CAA will charge money, because in this case the examiner may not sign your license, but new paperwork has to be issued by the CAA.

Obviously you only pass the skills test (or the LPC) if you're able to fly the aircraft sufficiently well. Flying 50 hours or more in a microlight annually will help a lot towards that proficiency.

Note that all this is independent of the renewal of your license itself. You need to renew that license every five years, and you can only renew your license if you have some sort of valid class rating on it. So in your case, you would be renewing your license based on your SEP(M) class rating - assuming that that's the one you're going to keep current.

[BEagle]

Xoxon, you do not make it clear whether you already have a licence, or whether you are training towards a JAR-FCL PPL(A).

Assuming you haven't yet gained your JAR-FCL PPL(A), there is nothing to stop you doing your 5 hours Microlighting, but it must be with an authorised Microlight instructor or it will count as 'interested passenger' time and be worth........nothing.

However, if you already have a JAR-FCL PPL(A) with SEP Class Rating, your Microlight training must be with an 'appropriately qualified flying instructor'. Once that's been completed, the balance of the 5 hours experience can probably be conducted with a fellow group member if he/she is an instructor. Otherwise you can't really log the time.

Regarding revalidation of an SEP Class Rating, that is a 24 month requirement. Whereas the JAR-FCL PPL(A) is only issued for 5 years. So, if your licence doesn't yet need re-issuing after the 5 year cut-off, you need either to revalidate (if the SEP Class Rating is still valid) or to renew (if it has lapsed). You can revalidate either by experience (12 hours TT on SEP of which 6 as PIC; 12 t/os and ldgs and 1 hour with an instructor (FI or CRI(SPA)) must be included in these 12 hours) - or you can revalidate by test. Which means the SEP Class Rating LPC - less extensive than the PPL(A) Skill Test - with an Examiner.

If you've gone past the 24 month point (but it's less than 5 years since your SEP Class Rating was valid), then you need to fly the SEP Class Rating LST - much the same as the SEP Class Rating LPC - with an Examiner.

If you still don't understand all this, go back and read Air Law again. You should really know this stuff!

Lastly, there is no point whatsoever in maintaining separate personal flying logbooks! Keep everything in one.

[S-Works]

I am not clear on this Beagle. It was my understanding that the holder of a JAA SEP(A) licence is able to fly a microlight legally without any further training (not condoning it). I was also under the impression that if they sought differences training then they could do it with an FI/CRI who has relevant experience not just a microlight Instructor?

[BEagle]

See LASORS C 1.1

It depends upon the interpretation of 'appropriately qualified' flying (not 'flight' ) instructor.

[Xoxon]

Roger that Beagle, re air law... I'll go back and have a look, and obtain a copy of LASORs too. This licensing jumble is one of those things that you may (or may not) know when you sit the exam, but until now when I NEED to know it, I've managed to occupy my attention with things more directly relevant to keeping the aeroplane in the sky (yes, I'm still training)!

BackPacker - I take your point about there not being much to be gained by trying to not do it by the book. I'm going with the procedure that you recommend with maybe a few 'interested passenger' details between now and finishing training. Awesome.

[S-Works]

That was kind of my point, I can't reconcile what is appropriately qualified either. My assumption was for example a CRI who meets the 30hrs on type or who holds a microlight licence would be appropriately qualified to provide differences training?

Privileges
Details of licence privileges can be found in Schedule 8
of the Air Navigation Order, (please also refer to
Section A, Appendix F).
The holder of a UK JAR-FCL licence with SEP rating
may also subject to completion of differences training
with an appropriately qualified flying instructor, exercise
the privileges of their licence on microlight aeroplanes
and SLMG’s in UK airspace only, without the necessity
of obtaining a NPPL (the normal licence for such
aeroplanes). However, any experience gained in
microlight aeroplanes or SLMG’s cannot be counted
towards the flying experience necessary to revalidate
the SEP rating.

[BEagle]

Not unless the trainee already held a licence!

[S-Works]

Yes I know that, it was a more general question on differences training.

[BackPacker]

I'm going with the procedure that you recommend with maybe a few 'interested passenger' details between now and finishing training. Awesome.

You might want to talk to your insurance about this, 'cause it might actually help you.

Formally, until you are qualified as a PPL(M) through a sign-off from a qualified instructor, you can't log any hours in the microlight, other than those flown with an instructor (or on a solo endorsement from said instructor). However, if you are legally just a passenger you could log them as "supernumery" in your logbook. You can't claim those hours for any legal purpose (such as revalidation of a class rating), but if you can convince the insurance that for 90% of the time you were actually handling the controls, you might just be able to subtract some of that time from the five hours the insurance requires.

This is one of those things where having a good relation with your insurance may help a lot.

Lasors can be obtained online (as PDF) from the CAA website. It's the first hit in Google actually.