Tullamarine CTAF

[Stationair8]

Good to see YMML became a CTAF again last night.
Didn't the Emirates Captain sound impressed at having to hold at Apple, until the tower reopened.
When the notam comes out why don't they put the head of ASA mobile number on it, so that we can give a ring and remind what a good job they are doing.
Welcome to Australia.

[Capt Wally]

Where damn lucky that our airspace is all but M/T compared to many OS's places ! We must look like a backyard operator at times, I feel for the ATC guys, their fighting just for decent conditions not just to keep us separated !:ugh:

CW:)

[Stationair8]

Interesting that Emirates copped it last night, does the sacred cow Qantas ever cop holding while ATC have a break?

[Jabawocky]

yeah I know I posted this in another thread but its rather appropriate I think.............:uhoh:
http://file043b.bebo.com/2/large/2008/01/25/00/4525920200a6707299238l.jpg

[Stationair8]

Pretty well spot on.
What is the avfax code?

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Stationair8,

Last Sunday morning I heard a news report on ABC radio that Tulla had been shut for 4 hours or so the night before and that Qantas had rescheduled a few flights (sorry, can't remember how many) so as to land outside that time. So yes, Qantas cop it and maybe, unlike Emirates, have contingencies to cope with it.

Was suprised that no-one else mentioned it last week.

UTR.

[Stationair8]

Would have got a tad interesting if the Emirates skipper said stick it we are diverting to YSSY. Interesting to explain that one to the passengers and media.

[Howard Hughes]

I'm assuming that the Emirates company operations manual prohibits such operations, perhaps time for a rewrite for when operating to International backwaters like Oz...;)

[CAPTBOB]

Its amazing that Emirates would consider ditching an aircraft as opposed to landing on soil controlled by those who have differing political or religious beliefs to them but they cant manage a radio broadcast to land in a CTAF R environment....thats funny!!!!

[ferris]

Maybe when you call the AsA CEO you could suggest that he employ "worlds best practice", become an "employer of choice", and "compete in the global marketplace" that is skilled labour. They might lure some of us, who are separating EK captains in the sandpit, back home.

Then again, they might not. And TIBA is so much cheaper, anyway.

[Capt Wally]

......sheeeez "jaba" I had to laugh at yr piccy:}...although you have the wrong freq promulgated there, it ought to be 121.5 seeing as it's used a lot by the big boys for all soughts of chit chat!!!!
CTAF = Consider Turning Around Folks !!!!:}

CW:}

[ACMS]

CX VOL 2 PT 2 says we can operate outside controlled airspace at the commanders discretion provided the TCAS operates normally.

So I assume CX would just check to see the RFF was available, make the required CTAF calls and land on an appropriate rwy. I can't see any problem doing that. Sounds like fun to me.

"Traffic Melbourne Cathay 123........................blah blah blah"

Something different:ok:

[bushy]

Fancy having to land all by yourself with no-one watching, or talking to you. That's like what they do at Ayers Rock. Shock horror. What next.

[Howard Hughes]

A serious question, what type of airspace is TIBA? I can't seem to find an answer in the AIP. I understand how it works, but does the airspace (say a centre frequency for example) still maintain it's airspace classification when TIBA is in operation? Or does it revert to a lower classification?

[Wanderin_dave]

Will someone let me know if they roll out the CTAF during daylight hours?!

A few loops and barrel rolls in the old Tiger over the termal would make for a good story! :}

[man on the ground]

A serious question, what type of airspace is TIBA? I can't seem to find an answer in the AIP. I understand how it works, but does the airspace (say a centre frequency for example) still maintain it's airspace classification when TIBA is in operation? Or does it revert to a lower classification?There is no change to the 'class' or classification of airpsace subject to TIBA. The change is to the level of service provided in that airspace (i.e. squat all) but the classification doesn't change.

[flightleader]

Howard,

Try look up Jepps intro,IFBP-Inflight broadcast procedures.Yangon VYY FIR is one.

[Howard Hughes]

Thanks MOG, that is what I thought!:ok:

So by that level of thinking a clearance is still required to operate in the Melbourne Airspace when TIBA is in operation, it isn't a CTAF per se...;)

[No Further Requirements]

No clearance is required - who is going to give it to you?

There is no one manning the console, no ATC services at all.

Cheers,

NFR.

[Howard Hughes]

Well my understanding is that you already have your clearance, eg: "cleared to Melbourne via Laravale flight planned route, maintain XXX", or "cleared to Melbourne via Wollongong", etc...:ooh:

If you don't require a clerance then the category of airspace must have changed!

I am just trying to get my head around the legalities of the procedure as it is becoming more and MORE common!

[man on the ground]

Well my understanding is that you already have your clearance, eg: "cleared to Melbourne via Laravale flight planned route, maintain XXX", or "cleared to Melbourne via Wollongong", etc...:ooh:

If you don't require a clerance then the category of airspace must have changed!

I am just trying to get my head around the legalities of the procedure as it is becoming more and MORE common!


HH, I fully agree it’s not very clear. For the actual flight in the TIBA area, no, you are not subject to a clearance. You can do as you like; which is required for you to ‘self-separate’. If you will exit the TIBA into a class of airspace that does require a clearance (and it’s a red letter day and there’s a controller on duty!), you do need an “onwards clearance” for the continuation of the flight in controlled airspace; which is required for us to provide a positive control service. So although the area subject to TIBA procedures is still the same class of airspace, it is in effect a little pocket of “OCTA”. Another way to look at it is that’s it’s similar to a clearance limit that has been imposed; an onwards clearance is required. Clear as mud.

With regard to the title of this thread ML was never actually a CTAF. The aerodrome itself (surface) was ‘uncontrolled” but still totally surrounded by the active control zone. A clearance to get airborne was still required “..become airborne on track/heading etc..”. Inbound you’re cleared for the approach report clear of the runway. Actually, exactly the same way EN procedures work outside TWR hours.

Unfortunately, yes, you will get more practice.

[Howard Hughes]

Thank you MOG that is an extremely good explanantion!:ok:

I was aware that you needed to contact centre for an onwards clearance prior to re-entering CTA after a period in TIBA, just wasn't quite sure how it works when the flight is terminating in that piece of airspace.

Once again thanks for a great explanation, it is now as clear as the proverbial mud!;)

[Blockla]

C73/08 Notamn
A) Melbourne C73/08 (ats) 0801251404
B) 0801251405 C) 0801251505
E) Atc, Fis And Alerting Services Normally Provided By Melbourne Tower Are Not Avbl Due To Staff Shortages.

Services Affected: Aerodrome Control, Surface Movement Control, And Airways Clearance Delivery, Provided By Melbourne Tower, Melbourne Ground And Melbourne Clearance Delivery On Frequencies 120.5, 121.7, And 127.2.

Pilots-in-command Are Solely Responsible For Collision Avoidance
While Operating On The Manoeuvring Area. To Prevent Overloading Of The Contingency System, Access To Melbourne Aerodrome Will Be Restricted.

Common Traffic Advisory Procedures Apply For Operations On And In The Vicinity Of The Aerodrome On Frequency 120.5. Flight Information Service (fis) Available From Melbourne Terminal Control Unit(tcu)

Directed Traffic Information Will Not Be Available While Operating On The Manoeuvring Area.

Alerting Service Provided By Melbourne Terminal Control Unit(tcu).

Prior To Operating On The Melbourne Aerodrome Manoeuvring Area, Pilots Must Receive A Briefing On Contingency Procedures And Obtain A Programmed Landing Or Departure Time. Where Normal Briefing Channels Are Unsuitable, Contact Melbourne Tcu 03 9235 7337 To Obtain Contingency Briefing And Programmed Landing Or Departure Times.

All Airport Lighting Is Pilot Monitored. Operate In Accordance With The Ifr And Display Navigation And Anti Collision Lights At All Times.

[BeGoneTFN]

Howard,

From the TWR point of view "cleared to land", TCAS has a poor record of perfomance on the RWY.

I just had a brilliant idea, how about we utilise the obviously under utilised senior management at ASA to run the operation, the core business.

I've heard previously that TFN believes its a **** easy job, we could use a clown like him at the workface. Judging by performance he's got to be good at something, surely.

And oh, what about BJ and the gameshow host with maybe 15 years console time between them, they must be handy for domestic chores. Yes thats it, I'll have white and zero every Wednesday morning up till easter how very good of you.:yuk:

Just kidding, I would rather buy my own.

BgTFN

[VH-XXX]

If it happens in daylight hours I'll zip out to Sunbury and hire a Drifter ultralight and fly it in there.

[Stationair8]

Just doing the Notam check and see YMLT Tower closed due lack of staff

[Dog One]

I find it strange that Mr Smith has nothing to say about ATC staffing problems, which is far more important than holding at Williamtown for 25 years. After all, we are talking about a major international airport not being available due staff shortages.

[Howard Hughes]

Cause even the 'US system' doesn't work without staff...;)

[Stationair8]

Who gives a f### what Dick thinks.

No Airservices in Australia have got some serious questions to answer about the way they run their business and the way they treat staff.
Interesting question would be if an incident or accident happens at somewhere like YMLT while the tower is shut due lack of staff, say Easystar B727 does an ILS into LT on a cloudy morning while Bill Smith in his Jabiru goes out does some circuits but has a finger trouble with the radio and misses the jets call inbound and they collide on final-wouldn't their be some duck shoving in the halls of power in CB. First question I would ask would be for a refund for the difference on my ticket for the ASA tower charge at LT, before we started talking settlement.

Bill Smith is no relation to Mr Richard Smith a highly regarded expert on all aviation matters.

Likewise Easystar bears no relation to any operator that operates an airline in Australia

[Dee]

they wont have to much luck recruiting new staff with a 75K 5 Year Bond that reduces at a rate of 15K a year and calculated yearly. load of &^%$ for a type specific job

[jumpuFOKKERjump]

Just doing the Notam check and see YMLT Tower closed due lack of staff Wot? It says 'lack of staff 'rather than the new weasel-words 'operational requirement'???

[westausatc]

Wonder if we will get the blame next week when our airspace out round PH closes - something like 31 blank shifts in the next two weeks so it is bound to happen sometime! Days when there are no night shifts rostered, two blank out of four for a morning, etc..... Hard times coming up but can't wait to make the broadcast

'All stations Melbourne Centre, this airspace is now TIBA until xxxx, no Air Traffic Services provided until then' (or something like that, anyway)

Only way the 'leaders' in CB will take notice of the hole they have dug for themselves....

BTW - Will we still be entitled to the free coffee on a Wed morning if we close airspace? :p

[Philthy]

A serious question, what type of airspace is TIBA? I can't seem to find an answer in the AIP. I understand how it works, but does the airspace (say a centre frequency for example) still maintain it's airspace classification when TIBA is in operation? Or does it revert to a lower classification?

Slight thread drift, but since the question has been asked...

Airspace Regulations 2007

Determination of airspace and controlled aerodromes etc

(1) CASA may, in writing, make a determination on any of the
following matters:
(a) that a volume of airspace is:
(i) a flight information area; or
(ii) a flight information region;
(b) that a volume of airspace extending upwards from ground
or water to a specified altitude is a control zone;
(c) that a volume of airspace extending upwards from a
specified altitude is a control area;
(d) that a volume of airspace is airspace classified, in accordance with Annex 11 to the Chicago Convention, as Class A, B, C, D, E, F or G;
(e) that an aerodrome is a controlled aerodrome.

...

(5) However, a determination in respect of:
(a) a flight information area or a flight information region; or
(b) a control area or a control zone; or
(c) airspace of any class; or
(d) a controlled aerodrome;
has no effect during any period in which relevant air traffic services are not provided.



So: unless anybody can provide some authoritative advice to the contrary, it seems that airspace published (in NOTAM) as TIBA (i.e. in which "relevant air traffic services are not provided") becomes 'nothing' airspace. Or, to put it another way, it loses whatever classification it was previously declared to be.

[Capt Wally]

....g'day Philthy, you been reading way too much there mate!!..obviously idle times for you at the pointy end !:)......still you are an airline pilot these days & now officially know heaps!:)

Trust yr well there Philthy!

TIBA= Total Introductory & Basic Airspace :)

CW:)

[Philthy]

Capt. Wally,

You might have the wrong Philthy, I think...

But since you ask, I'm very well at the blunt end thanks very much.

Cheers,

Philthy

[Roger Standby]

Not gonna register the 4 seat whale for RPT, Philthy:p?

[Philthy]

Nope, but since they've banned bugsmashers from the chopper lane I might have to wait for the next bout of TIBA to flog down to MEL for some snaps!

[Capt Wally]

......whoooops soz 'philthy', thought it was another philthy phil:E..............he too is now an airline pilot, poor bloke !:)
Glad to see yr doing well anyway:)

CW:)

[Lagrange Mechanic]

Keep up DA 2nd last page of the AsA staffing thread :ok:

[Jabawocky]

So I hear on the rumopur mill that my CTAF map (see page 1) has made its way onto the walls of many AirServices offices and towers:}

Apparently some management were not amused, but maybe it helped get the point accross.

Any of you have any stories to tell to substaniate the rumour? Is anything actually going to be changed for the better?

J:ok:

[SM4 Pirate]

I have seen it hanging on a few consoles.:} Saw it in the rec-room too; maybe someone printed a few copies. No doubt counselling will ensue.:\

[Jet_A_Knight]

Did any one think to ask Scurvy D whether he minded 'taking up the slack' ?:uhoh:

[Jabawocky]

LMAO............:}

Jet_A_Knight

Thts an interesting point......maybe he will have to the poor bugger!

You should note that he is just needing to hold up the Launie CTAF R......can't work hime that hard!

J:E

[Van Demon]

quote:
In the case of Launceston, Mr O'Connor said one of seven staff based there was on long-term medical leave and two others had been suffering from poor health.There are five staff in LT. Buggered if anyone can find the extra two guys, although the cleaner is a pretty good traffic spotter.
I'm sure Mr O'Connor made a genuine mistake though. Asa would never intentionally fib to the media, would they?
There may only be four soon if Palm Fruit continues on his merry way.............................. actually, make that three!

[BN APP 125.6]

Noticed that East of Adelaide was TIBA this afternoon/evening:


ATIS ATIS YMML R 090620
RWY: 16
+ OPR INFO: START CLEARANCE RQ.FOR AIRCRAFT DEPARTING TO
WEST AND NORTH WEST ABOVE FLIGHT LEVEL 240
EXPECT POSSIBLE DELAYS ON COMBINED ACD AND SMC
FREQS DUE STAFF SHORTAGE.
TAXIWAYS CLOSED AS PER NOTAM
+ WND: 110-170/8
CLD: CAVOK
TMP: 34
QNH: 1020



ATIS ATIS YPAD L 090554
RWY: 23
+ OPR INFO: RWY 23 GP NOT AVBL.
TIBA AIRSPACE EAST OF ADELAIDE.
START CLEARANCES RQD TO EAST COAST PORTS
WND: 280/10.
MAX XW 10 KTS
WX: CAVOK
+ TMP: 38
QNH: 1018
http://www.civilair.asn.au/smf/Themes/default/images/icons/modify_inline.gif

Question for the AD APP controllers - is first contact for inbound aircraft a call prior to the boundary (30-40nm?) with Jet Aircraft presumably well on descent requesting an airways clearance?

Sounds very 'interesting'.

Also - what were the 'Start Clearances' for?

[Spodman]

Your TIBA sector for today was CANTY, 127.4, 132.6 & 128.5. Stuff going to YPAD would have called 125.3 at 140 NM east, so would not have been getting a clearance from approach. Start clearances were to provide 10 min longitudinal between aircraft entering the TIBA airspace along the same track.

Expect more of the same until the new sector groupings resulting from the SDE shuffling of the deck chairs are able to cross train. If they are able. :ugh:

[UnderneathTheRadar]

A fairly large proportion of traffic coming down the east coast for Melbourne yesterday afternoon were getting holds at ELW and other such locations. When questions by a Rex a/c, the controller acknowledged that the delays were at least partly due to the TIBA out west as they needed to reduce the Melbourne TC workload to deal with the TIBA arrivals.

Hope all the affected operators are making loud noises by now!

UTR

PS This going TIBA during the day is a new thing isn't it? There was some TIBA on the NE on weekdays recently too.

[BN APP 125.6]

Spodman:

Start clearances were to provide 10 min longitudinal between aircraft entering the TIBA airspace along the same track.


Is that a requirement of the contingency/continuity plan, or was it something tactically managed on the day? Curious more than anything why a procedural standard was set up for non-controlled airspace, but understand if it was more to give the sector 'catching' them at the other end a fighting chance to gain/retain some kind of separation standard back in to CTA.

-------------

If you take a 'snapshot' look at the traffic around some of these sectors on a normal day, and then imagine what it would be like if all those aircraft were simply broadcasting position reports and trying to self separate....hmmm

[Roger Standby]

My guess is that it was setup for the guy catching them at the other end. ML arrivals sector (YWE 125.7) would have been busy identing them, clearing them, starring them and sequencing all at the same time.

In fact from the guys working that sector, some a/c were calling them up for onwards as soon as they entered TIBA whilst others had to be chased before entering CTA at the other end without a clearance. All good fun.

The last guy who shut the airspace down (and was told by a pilot to go and enjoy an nice cup of tea, lol) had done 10 hours and basically coordinated all the traffic around his sector as far as he could see to get them at different levels before entering TIBA to make sure they weren't gonna hit. Apparently there would have been some very close calls if they'd all gone in at their planned levels (and not spoken to each other).